Bible Discussion Thread

Salvation and assurance Part 3.

I have stated starting this series my dissection of the Book of John. It is an excellent examination of the concept of Predestination of those the Father has given to the Son; and such facts about who is given or revealed the truth about Christ. Stating such a fact; however doesn't give those in the "hyper grace" camp as well as others license to skip over repentance as a necessary element of saving faith. God does grant repentance ( 2 Timothy 2:25 also in Acts). Perhaps it would be fair to say that it is much like salvation as a free gift; certainly it is part of what causes one to be saved. Again; avoiding the consequences of sin like Judas Iscariot did shows worldly sorrow; what Peter did was weep bitterly as He offended one that He deeply loved. ( 2 Cor. 7:10).

I also feel that it is very dangerous if we are in a Christian environment from our youth and don't really have a time that we can see a change in realizing we had been called from death to life. This is not to say that we should place all our cards on the validity of a one time statement; even if valid as we may discover that our hearts weren't really converted at first when He reveals Himself at a later time. God is beyond time and space; but if one IS to become a believer He will wait until that happens in THIS lifetime. That of course brings up questions as to why God holds back judgment for the lost; more cans of worms than I care to open at present. Our confidence; of course is to be in the finished work of Christ; but nonetheless we are HIs temple so to speak (see also 2 Corinthians 4:7). The Spirit must take residence to be truly in the faith ( John 14:23). This; as the verse indicates shows the Father active and present along with the Son of God.

Truly; one of the strongest indicators that we know the Lord is the fear of the Lord resides in us. Proverbs 9:10 is hardly isolated regarding that fact. His life should draw others to Christ in us

Assurance of salvation (continued thoughts after interim sabbatical as it were)

In short; I am not sure if arguing all points against the subject is worth it; as it likely won't change any minds. I will submit that some issues are a reward issue; as not all are going to get the prize as in Paul's example; and there are scriptures such as Revelation 3:11 stating that we can lose rewards. The basic idea i that Christ must succeed in bringing all His children to glory as that is part of the Father's plan which cannot be thwarted.

As to another point; yes it is true I have heard from one friend of mine who is an evangelist how his own mother turned away from the faith the last few months of his life; and it is true that his mother in law heard the Gospel for many years during home Bible studies and still never came to saving faith. It is also true that judgment is harsher for those who become reprobate from the faith than those who never believed ( 2 Peter 2:21).

THere are also things related to groups of people which must be carefully interpreted as opposed to individuals. That can skew things in the subject of Predestination; for example or even for those such as I that believe in the 5 points more or less can misinterpret something isolated.

I plan to continue this series; and think verses that describe Christ dying for the sins of the whole world may be a good place to begin. After an extensive study in Hebrews on such apparent contraditions to my premise a couple years back I may go there next to explore some of the warnings there as well as the Gospels and being a branch cast into the fire.

Whatever happens; we all should be searching the scriptures daily as the Bereans did. We still should fear God; knowing He is not just Savior; but Lord; King and Master of us all. Learning His ways is the most important thing; not just a bunch of facts about Him. The Word is our instruction manual but unless taken to heart it won't change us.

Hello Richard.

I was going to write some more but I think I may have tired all of you. Maybe later. I have never heard of Dake's Bible.

Thanks for reading my posts anyway.

GBU

Assurance of salvation: Continued after short respite

Dear folks: I appreciate the unprecedented amount of commentary; as you see one individual has sent me a ten part series defending how one can become lost after being found. I am sure that I could muster a response to every point made; although I am aware owning a Dake's Bible that there are 800 or so verses cited supporting that viewpoint not to mention that it is the premise of the entire Bible interpretation. Dake's has over 100,000 cross references; although at the time the author believed in separation of the races as was sadly the thought among some in the south in the 50's.

To make it clear; my basic premise is that one cannot be lost after truly being saved; and that based on Predestination; the work on the cross; etc. Or; I could quote 1 John where it states that he who says he is without sin is a liar. Hence only death or the rapture takes that out of the equation since in heaven we can no longer sin and fall away. The understanding from the Gospel of John in particular which I dissected some time last year chapter by chapter is quite helpful as to seeing how the Godhead has procured a plan for the Son to only bring those who the Father has given to the Son. Again; I cite Corinthians where it is stated that some make it as through the fire suffering loss; some have interpreted the wood; hay and stubble as only works done poorly. I also have brought out the case of Peter who continued to err even after the Resurrection as stated in Galatians for example back to the law (or as Paul states circumcision).

I would say that it is His sinless perfection which must indwell a true believer; but acted out by some more than others in regard to submission; commission and omission of certain behaviors. Romans 8 seems to make it pretty clear that God has foreseen glorification for all those called and chosen. That means of course sanctification must be there; or producing good fruit.

Pt 10... Richard

The theory of a secured salvation no matter how a christian lives is a result of what I think is called "a hyper(super) grace. It is a belief that many have who like to take all the responsibility about their life off them and place it on God. God saves, God makes us do this, that, all things, make us wanting or not wanting things. It is always God, never us. As if though one puts the auto pilot in their life and the car goes on its own. As if the Spirit of God substitutes their own spirit, as if believers stop desiring or disliking things, as if they never think and act on their own. Even as if obeying or disobeying God does noy really matter, God will always find a way to repair the situation. As if good works have no value for a man. There is where all that starts from.

But this is what I will examine tomorrow, for now let us think,

Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Will not blot out his name out of the book of life? Is there such a case?

Goodnight, the Lord be with you.

Pt 8, cont..

In Corinth there was a man who was in a relation with his father's wife. Paul advices the church to send him out of the church,

1 Corinthians 5:4-5, "4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

They claim that that person was saved (V 5). Yes that is true, because he repented at the end (see 2 Cor 2:6-8).

They also use the verses about those who take part in Communion having a sin, 1 Cor 11:27-32,

"27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

They say, look they were not condemned with the (sinful) world. Yes also true but that implies that due to God's judgement they actually repented,

Also they mention the case that one is saved as through fire, 1 Cor 2:10-15.

Verses 14-15, "14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Here what Paul says is if a believer who lives a troubled life repends at the end he is still saved but he will earn no wage at all. It is like someone who escaped his burning house, so he saved himself but he lost all he aquired so far.

All the above cases imply a repentance at the end. It is not like Ananias and Sapphira, or Saul, or Balaam, or Korah.

Pt 7

Assurance of Salvation...cont. Richard.

Well in my previous post I mentioned Judas, a person who in the begining was one of the top disciples, chosen as a member of the 12 apostles, who had a unique ministry to serve ( Acts 1:17, "For he (Judas)was numbered with us (the 12, Peter said ), and had obtained part of this ministry"), he was predestined by God to sit on a throne and judge the 12 tribes of Israel (what an honor and a priviledge!) but during his ministry he let the devil work his heart and at the end he became a devil by becoming his Lord's traitor. What a horrible ending! The transformation from one of the top disciples to a devil was not done overnight, it was gradual as he was letting his heart love money instead of God. A perfect example (to avoid) about what can happen to a christian if they are not careful about what enters their heart and where that is going to lead them.

Ananias and Sapphira was another example to avoid ( Acts 5). Believers that tried to trick the apostles about the price they sold their field. So they actually lied to the Holly Spirit and fell dead, executed by God. I know the word execution sounds a bit horrible but this is exactly what God did to them. The same that God did to Korah and his family when the rebbelled against Moses. The same end Saul the first king had. The same end Balaam the prophet had. The former although humble in the beggining, he ended loving honor and fame more than God. A perfect example about those who fall in love with the gifts and not with the gifter. The latter also loved riches and honor more than God and exterminated later by the Israelites. How about Elisha's servant Gehasi ( 2 Kings 5) and many more stories about people of God who lost everything, even their eternal lives.

Here I have to stop and go back to Ananias and Sapphira. Some try to explain their end by saying that although God punished them with death they were still saved. Surprising explanation, to fit that specific belief.

Richard,

I am enjoying your posts on Salvation and Assurance. Thank you!

Something you wrote that stands out for me is where you said, "Our confidence; of course is to be in the finished work of Christ;"

I say amen to that!

Absolutely Jesse and Richard.

We are to put no confidence in the flesh, and our heart is wicked, and our mind is fixed on this life so often, all due to our sinful nature.

But praise the Lord, He has overcome all of what the sin has done to us and saved us from our own sin. We do not need to expect condemnation by God, NO! We receive mercy and grace and are made a new creation in our spirit. We can look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. It all comes from Him!

We are so blessed, even in heavenly places where Jesus sits on His throne next the Father, reigning over all creation. We have come to Mt. Zion, the throne of grace in Christ. We can rejoice in God our Savior and give thanks to Him. We can give Him the honor due Him and focus our love on Him since He has done so to us first.

But in the all in all, it is God who wrought all of this in us, desiring since before creation to draw out of sinful humanity a redeemed people for Himself. And we are that people, the holy nation, royal priesthood, and a peculiar people, chosen from pre-creation to receive the Kingdom of heaven with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit called to show forth His praises. ( 1 Peter 2:8-9) This was said of the people of Israel in the Old Testament,, but now in the New Testament it is said only of the redeemed in Christ. The OT people were a type and shadow of the people God would redeem.

Pt 9

Do all believers repent at the end before death? The answer is no, they don't.

The parable of the 10 virgins tells us that if just before Jesus comes for us (this can be also regarded as an individual departure through physical death as well as the rapture of the church as a whole) we must have light(sanctification) in ourselves. Otherwise we will not enter the marriage ( Matthew 25:1-12). Read what Jesus told them, He doesn't know them. But they were virgins(sanctified), they were expecting the Lord with the rest. Yes but they had a troubled christian life and they were not ready when Jesus came. Jesus doesn't recognize them, He only recognizes His children who look like Him in the character, it is them that He considers true children, the rest are just "bastards", Hebrews 12:7-8.

In the parable of the vine, John 15:1-8, in verse 2 says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." in verse 6 says, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.". I don't think a further explanation is needed

Finally in 2 Peter 1:5-11 what christians should try to succeed in their christian life. in verse 10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"

Make our calling sure? Doing these things we will not fail? And here we come to what really all that is about.

It all begins with the relationship between grace and good works. There is where it all starts. Many christians through the ages could not understand that relationship. People like Luther even rejected Jame's epistle as fake because it didn't fit their beliefs.. For some grace has nothing to do with any human work at all. So they rejected good works, so what a man does bad or good has no consequence to their salvation.

Part 6

Assurance of salvation, cont...

As I said Paul was very careful and strict when he was selecting his partners in the ministry. He once didn't want with Him Mark(the Evangelist who wrote one of the gospels, he was also apostle Peter's nephew) because Mark left him and Barnabas in a trip to Cyprus. and that was the reason he separated himself from Barnabas ( Acts 15:37-40). So Demas wasn't an ordinary, loose christian. He was one of the best for that ministry. But like Judas, he let his heart deceive him and loved the world more than God. What happened to him? We don't really know but Paul never mentioned Demas in his epistles any more, so he never returned, at least as long as Paul was alive.

And there are more stories in the Gospel about people who never finished their courses. And they didn't get the prize of the eternal life. Tomorrow I am going to deal with some other people who lost their salvation. Ananias and Sapphira. Also with people in the Old Testament.

The Bible warns us in 1 Peter 5:8, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:". Devour? The devil? Us, believers? But isn't our salvation secured, as some say?

Part 5.

Assurance of salvation, cont.

In the gospels we read the story of Judas. A disciple, an apostle, he baprized new believers in water like the rest ( John 4:2), he was given authority over the Spirit to perform miracles and healings ( Luke 9:6), cast out demons, he was sent by Jesus to preach salvation ( Matthew 10:5-15), he was told that he, together with the rest, in the Judgement will sit on a throne and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. But in the midtime Judas allowed his heart to love money more than Jesus and eventually his love for money led him to become Jesus' trator. Why? Because his heart deceived him. People who hold the belief that salvation can not be lost try to overcome Judas' example by saying that he wasn't actually saved. for that they use the verse in John 17:12, "While I (Jesus) was with them (the 12) in the world, I kept them in thy name (Saviour): those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." So a sinful man, not saved, was sent to preach salvation to Israel? Was given gifts of healing and performing miracles? A son of satan who casts out devils? Really? No, not really. What Jesus says is that he managed to save all but Judas because Judas took the decision for himself to become a traitor, a son of perdition, like the Scriptures said and so the prophesy was fulfilled. And something else. Even if Judas never betrayed Jesus, still the Jews would capture Him sometime, one way or another. Judas wasn't their only choise.

Another example of a man who let his heart deceive him is Demas, a companion of Paul during his ministry. But eventually he left Paul, 2 Timothy 4:10, "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; ...". Demas eventually loved the sinful world more than God and left Paul. Who was Demas? We don't really know. But we know that Paul was very strict when he selected his partners in the ministry.

Part 4

My thoughts on Assurance of Salvation

Richard, I continue my posts from yesterday.

In Philippians 2:12 Paul advices believers "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

Why fear and trembling? Fear what? Although the meaning of the verse is clear, I would like to point out another fear, not about our salvation but about our heart.

In Jeremiah 17:9, it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We don't really know our heart, we don't know how we are going to act when a temptation comes infront of us, that is why in the "Our Father in Heaven" we ask God to take temptations away from us.

In the parable of the Sower the 2nd and 3rd cases are about people who believed and were saved but still later in their lives they fell out,

Luke 8:13-14, " 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."

In the 3rd case it is very evident of where our heart can lead us if we are not careful in our spiritual life. Jesus said that "where our heart is, also our treasure is" and the opposite "where our treasure is also our heart is" is true. Jesus also asked us to love Him more even than our lives ( Matthew 10:37-39). Why? Because a. He deserves that and b. this will give us the assurance that we will follow Him to the end. If in the midtime we love something else more than Jesus then it is that that we are going to follow and not God, so we will leave our christian course. And that will lead us into trouble.

Part 3

Richard.

2 Timothy is Pau'sl last epistle before his martyrdom. He was captured for a second time when emperor of Rome was Nero and the persecutions against christians by Romans had already started. In that last letter now Paul feels secure about his salvation. Why? Because his course has come to an end, his life is going to end soon, everything now finishes. He has achieved with the grace of God to stay on that course and he has been loyal to his Lord and His commandements. So he writes in 2 Timothy 4:6-8,

"6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:n8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

End of the race. Price secured.

Before that (his end) in 1 Timothy 6:12 Paul advices Timothy to do the same that he has done through his life,

"11But thou, O man of God(Timothy), flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

To fight the good fight of faith, to LAY HOLD on eternal life into which Timothy was called.

We are all called to enter the eternal life. We have entered the narrow path through our belief and new birth. But now we have to run that race lawfully to finish it victoriously and to be given the price of eternal life.

Well, it is too late at night here so I'll come back tomorrow.

Good night and God Bless You.

The times of our lives are ordered according to the grace of our God, a life covered with the precious blood of the Lamb.

Paul was such a man, waiting for His departure, yet preaching from the dark dungeon of the palace.

Unlike John the Baptist, who may have had no indication whatsoever when His demise would come. And Again , we see Peter who also is aware of His Time. Then of course there was Andrew , crucified. James the first perhaps ,What is most intriguing, is the disciple John, who somehow managed to survive, remembering what Jesus said to Peter on the beach, "What is that to thee?". Even so, if we are to walk by faith and not by sight , how else could the Holy Spirit order our steps?

How else could these men have done what they did without true faith in the life of Christ and the Words He gave them!

Jesus said "Be not afraid"!

"Judge not according to appearance, but make righteous judgment!"

Trusting in the words of Christ, there is no greater authority, in Heaven or in earth! He created all things and orders even the steps of His own creation.

Repent and be Baptized

Very true, Thank you Fred.

I was just thinking of you yesterday, since we hadn't heard from you for a awhile. Glad to have you back on board.

Part 2.

Richard

In Philippians 3:12-14 Paul writes,

"12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Paul now uses other words to say the same thing as in Corinthians. To forget what he has achieved so far and move forward for the price. Why forget what he has done so far? Because they can not guarentee his future. There is still a lot of distance for him to run and the past does not mean anything. It is his future result that counts, not the past. He says clearly in v 12-13 that he is not certain of the result. Does he feel that his salvation is secured? To me, no he doesn't. But he is the apostle of the gentiles, selected by God Himself before the world was created, he performed unimaginary miracles. Yes but all that do not mean anything if he doesn't finish his life victoriously.

The past can not guarantee the future. In Ezekiel 18:24-26 says,

"24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25...26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die."

Reading the above carefully makes clear that nothing is secured. If the rightous turns from his course into a sinful life and dies in it then he will die spiritually too. His rightouness he has done in his previous life will be ignored.

Part 1

Hello Richard

I'd like to participate in this discussion. My problem though is that I can not clearly understand your posts, partly because of the language you are using and partly of the complexity of the thoughts you are putting down. So I cannot really understand what you really believe, a secured salvation, a non secured salvation or somewhere in between?

My belief is that the gospel must be presented in simplicity, in an order and with with clear statements/meanings. So I will try to put my belief forward.

I would like to present (and I've done that before) what people in NT believed about their salvation. And first of all, Paul the apostle. Did he believe that his salvation was secured till his departure from this world or didn't he?

In 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 he writes,

"24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Here Paul talks about a race and the price given to the winner which is the incorruptible crown. What is this race and what is this crown? Obviously the race is our live's course and the price is the final entrance into the Kingdom of God in Heaven, in other words God and Heaven. Paul advices believers in Corinth to strive, to fight like an athlete does so to end that race/fight. He even sounds like he is very much concerned that it is a possibility for him to loose what he has been given if he does not run the race properly. Obviously his words are not the words of a man who is certain about his final salvation.

In his epistle to Philippians he talks again about the same race.