GiGi to continue our conversation. I think its more about the bloodline, that would be the bloodline that Jesus would come through. The promise of Jesus was in ( Isa. 7:14) also in ( Isa. 9:6) There are probably a lot of other places in the Old Testament that show the promise of His coming. What about the promise of "in Isaac shall thy seed be called"? ( Gen. 21:12) The word (seed) is #2233; it means fruit, plant, sowing-time, ((posterity)), carnally, child, bear, conceive seed. The word (called) is #7121; it means to call out to, address by name, that are bidden, call (forth) cry (unto) guest, invite. Those who are (called) would be the church being called out by name wouldn't it GiGi? And this is the OT. Now the New Testament ( Rom. 9:7) and ( Heb. 11:18) The word (seed) in Greek is #4690; it means something sown, i.e. seed (including male "sperm") by implying ((offspring)). The word (called) in Greek is #2564; it means to "call" aloud, bid, call (forth) (whose sur-) name (was called) (That would be the church being called out by name). In ( Eph. 5:27) The word (church) is #1577; it means a calling out, to "call" aloud, bid, call (forth) This is the seed or bloodline Jesus Christ was born through and it seems to be that bloodline in the Lastdays of which those who are called out by name, that would be the church. I know people are grafted in if they believe but this would have to be those who are chosen from the foundation of the world as ( Eph. 1:4) tells us. ( Eph. 1:3-5,10-11) We see in ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17) The word (shout) is #2752; it means a cry of incitement "hail" to incite by word, i.e. order, bid, (at, give) command. Thank you Jesus!! I may have went a little off track here but what are your thoughts on this GiGi? Blessings.
... saying the if the first-fruit (Jesus) is holy, then the whole lump is holy. And if the root be holy, then the whole is holy, the branches (unbelieving Jews) are broken off, and believing Gentiles are ingrafted into the cultivated olive tree (the Israelite nation)
The branches broken off are outside of the redemption of God being separated from the life-giving root (Jesus, the way, the truth, and life). But if the unbelieving Jew repents and believes, he will be grafted back into the cultivated olive tree.
Paul does go on to say the all Israel shall be saved. But is he speaking of ethnic Israel in unbelief, or Jews chosen by election to believe in Jesus and be ingrafted back into the olive tree that has Jesus as its root? He says that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
So, either "All Israel refers to the remnant of elected Israelites that believe in Jesus and are in Him or refers to all Israel going back the Jacob where the nation of Israel began.
verses 32 says that God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He may have mercy upon all.
For me, I don't know which it is, because I do not think that the Bible teaches universal salvation for all of mankind.
Romans 9:27 says that the remnant shall be saved. I don't think Paul is teaching salvation without faith in Jesus here. There is only one way of salvation, faith in God and His Messiah.
Perhaps you have some insight on this. But for now I am getting sleepy. Going to head off to bed. Good night,.
These Jews became one in Christ along with the Gentiles and together are the True Israel of God, the people of God, a holy nation, royal priesthood, peculiar people, chosen of God. This is a spiritual people, which is the highest and most perfect way for one to be joined to God as His people.
In my view, there are no more promises or prophecies to be fulfilled for ethnic Israel, because Jesus fulfilled all of them, being Yes in them. So, I do not believe it is God's will for the Jews to have an earthly kingdom in the end times, or to rebuild a temple, and begin to offer sacrifices once again. If the Jews do this, it is of their making, not God's.
God had promised to bring the remnant of Israel back to God from all parts of the world, but this is a remnant that is in Christ, not the ethnic nation of Israel. What we see as the nation of Israel was brought about by Zionists in places of power, But God allowed it desiring them to turn back to Him. But as Jesus said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem...... how often would I have gathered your children together.....and Ye would NOT! Behold your house is left to you desolate (70 A.D.) Matt. 23:37-38. And today, they still WILL NOT.
But all Jews who are in Christ will be saved, the remnant that God elected, chosen before the creation of the world. In Romans 9 Paull quotes Hosea 2:25-27 saying that the people that were not Gods people, are now HIs people, sons of the living God. And Paul quotes Isaiah 10_20-23 and Hosea 1:10 concerning Israel, that though the number of the children of Israel be as sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
Romans 11:2 says that God has not cast away his people which He foreknew...And in verse 5 Paul says that that there is a remnant according to election by grace reserved for salvation. Paul says that ethnic Israel has been blinded, and have a spirit of slumber, their eyes do not see and ears do not hear.
Paul then goes on to explain the two olive trees, .....cont.
Jesus (called Israel by God) was also a nation of One until He added to the nation of true Israel with the redeemed, those who are in Him by faith (including Abraham).
This true Israel is a physical and a spiritual people. Jesus was ethically and Jew but also God. His church is a spiritual people of God. In the NT, the people of God is no longer ethnic Israel, the kingdom was taken from them and given to believers. Ethnic Israel's purpose was completed in Christ's first advent.
Jesus was clear that they no longer were recipients of the kingdom on the Messiah. In predicting the downfall of Jerusalem and it coming to pass, utterly destroying the city, temple, and 1.1 million Jews died. Not only was the city destroyed, the temple where God once dwelled upon the mercy seat, was cast down. The OT Mosaic religious rites were ended with the destruction of the temple. The Jews that were left were scattered and taken as prisoners becoming slaves once again. The nation of Israel was technically destroyed in the siege, but also their religion was also stopped in the sense of being able to offer the daily sacrifices, follow the commands of God at Sinai, and celebrate the feasts that required Jewish males to come to Jerusalem to do the rites required of the feasts in the temple. (bring their offerings to the priest) The fulfillment of this prophecies left the whole house of Judah desolate.
Instead of repenting and turning to Jesus after this destruction, the Rabbis spoke and taught blasphemously about Jesus, and still do to this day, many of these blasphemies are recorded in the Talmud, Mishnah and other writings that emerged after the desolation of Jerusalem. Judaism became more occultic after this becoming more "mystical". The Rabbis led the Jews further and further away for God and their Messiah. They remain this way today as a whole. But there is a remnant that have been born again in Christ. They joined the True Israel of God in Christ......cont.
Romans 9:6-8 "..For not all are not Israel, that are of Israel." Calling out the ethnic Jews as being "uncitizened" so to speak as being genetically of Israel. Paul say, NO they are not all Israel. 2 Cor. 1:20 says "....For all the promises of God find their Yes in Him..." The promises to Abraham are fulfilled in Jesus and Jesus alone fulfills all of the promises of God. God always had His Son in view when making these promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These were not promises only made to Abraham, but re-promised to Isaac, and to Jacob, and then centuries later to the nation of Israel. So if Jesus is the true and absolute Seed of In Abraham, Isaac AND Jacob (Israel).
In Isaiah 49:1-7 the servant of the Lord (Messiah) is called "Israel" in whom God will be glorified. Also in this passage this servant is called God will give His servant (Messiah) as a "light to the Gentiles" Here God plainly speaks of the Messiah as Israel. Verse 2 says that God has made His servant's mouth like a sharp sword. This passage refers to God's servant as Israel, a light to the Gentiles, having a mouth like a sharp sword, the Holy One, Redeemer, who will be despised, who the NATION aborrheth.
In Luke 2:28-32 Simeon prophesies about Jesus when His parents brought Him to the temple. In his prophesying Simeon refers to Isaiah 49:6 as Jesus being the light to the Gentiles. This citation by Luke shows that the "servant, Israel" spoken of in Isaiah 49:1-7 is referring to Jesus. (See also Jn 1:5-11; 8:12.
So, the ethnic Israelites were a type or shadow pointing to the true Israel, Jesus who fulfilled all the requirements of the Law as a jew. God said several times from heaven, that He was well pleased with Jesus, His Son.
When we speak of end times events we do need to not weave a narrative that is not stated in the NT Scriptures, as the OT Covenant was ended in Jesus' advent and the New Covenant in Jesus (as Jacob was a nation of one when called by God as Israel....cont.
GiGi Thank you I do agree with most of your response, but as far as ( Isa. 49:1-7) the (servant) spoken of here I don't think these verses are speaking of Jesus Christ. (The word (servant) is #5650; it means bondage, bondman, to work, by implying to serve till, enslave. ( Isa. 42:1) Tells us "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. (I see this as being prophecy for the Lastdays) This verse also calls God's elect His servant and says he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. In ( Acts. 13:46-47) Paul and Barnabas are commanded by the Lord in verse 47 "I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that ((thou shouldest be for salvation)) unto the ends of the earth". Paul and Barnabas are set to be a light of the Gentiles and shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth in this verse. This verse also has almost the exact wording as ( Isa. 49:6) Then if we look at ( Rev. 7:3-8) The servants of God are sealed in their foreheads, and these servants are "all the tribes of the children of Israel". It seems to me the servant spoken of in ( Isa. 49:1-7) is Israel, the elect of God. ( Isa. 49:3) I may have misunderstood your comment GiGi If I did, please forgive me. We are in agreement on many things. God Bless you GiGi.
HI Jimbob, thanks for the thoughtful response. I simply stand by my first post to you. Jesus is the promised Seed, as Paul states so clearly. And yes, Isaac was the promised seed also. Through Isaac came Esau and Jacob. Jacob was chosen, Esau not, Then of the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel) Judah was chosen by God for the Messiah King to come. Israel was scattered all over the world from captivity in Assyria. They were not the bloodline of Jesus, so God had them assimilate and intermarry among the nations. From Judah Jesus came. Judah was returned from captivity not because they were more deserving than Israel nor more repentant, but solely because the Messiah was promised to come from Judah. Then at the appointed time, God sent His Son, via Mary. So, the promise to Abraham concerning his seed had an earthly, physical fulfillment in Isaac and an earthly and spiritual fulfillment in Jesus, as Jesus was born of Mary but His Father was God and Jesus was God in the flesh. Israel was one man when God gave Jacob this name, but he had a multitude of descendants through his twelve sons and also daughter Dinah. Jesus was given the name Israel by God. He was one man, but has had million upon millions of spiritual descendants over the centuries.
The promise to Isaac was a double prophecy and I believe that Abraham knew this as Paul says that the gospel was preached to Abraham in his time. ( Eph. 3:8) He knew the Messiah would come from his lineage through Isaac.
IN Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 in speaking to the churches Jesus says that those who say they are Jews (attesting to be ethnically Jews), they truly are not the people of God, but Jesus calls them a synagogue of Satan. Thus identifying them as unfaithful, apostate, and wicked as an ethnic group. This is due to them rejecting Jesus, the Messiah they were hoping for as prophesied, but whose ears were made deaf, and eyes blind, so that they were unable to recognize their Messiah and acknowledge Him as Jesus.
Part 5
... saying the if the first-fruit (Jesus) is holy, then the whole lump is holy. And if the root be holy, then the whole is holy, the branches (unbelieving Jews) are broken off, and believing Gentiles are ingrafted into the cultivated olive tree (the Israelite nation)
The branches broken off are outside of the redemption of God being separated from the life-giving root (Jesus, the way, the truth, and life). But if the unbelieving Jew repents and believes, he will be grafted back into the cultivated olive tree.
Paul does go on to say the all Israel shall be saved. But is he speaking of ethnic Israel in unbelief, or Jews chosen by election to believe in Jesus and be ingrafted back into the olive tree that has Jesus as its root? He says that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
So, either "All Israel refers to the remnant of elected Israelites that believe in Jesus and are in Him or refers to all Israel going back the Jacob where the nation of Israel began.
verses 32 says that God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He may have mercy upon all.
For me, I don't know which it is, because I do not think that the Bible teaches universal salvation for all of mankind.
Romans 9:27 says that the remnant shall be saved. I don't think Paul is teaching salvation without faith in Jesus here. There is only one way of salvation, faith in God and His Messiah.
Perhaps you have some insight on this. But for now I am getting sleepy. Going to head off to bed. Good night,.
Pt. 4
These Jews became one in Christ along with the Gentiles and together are the True Israel of God, the people of God, a holy nation, royal priesthood, peculiar people, chosen of God. This is a spiritual people, which is the highest and most perfect way for one to be joined to God as His people.
In my view, there are no more promises or prophecies to be fulfilled for ethnic Israel, because Jesus fulfilled all of them, being Yes in them. So, I do not believe it is God's will for the Jews to have an earthly kingdom in the end times, or to rebuild a temple, and begin to offer sacrifices once again. If the Jews do this, it is of their making, not God's.
God had promised to bring the remnant of Israel back to God from all parts of the world, but this is a remnant that is in Christ, not the ethnic nation of Israel. What we see as the nation of Israel was brought about by Zionists in places of power, But God allowed it desiring them to turn back to Him. But as Jesus said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem...... how often would I have gathered your children together.....and Ye would NOT! Behold your house is left to you desolate (70 A.D.) Matt. 23:37-38. And today, they still WILL NOT.
But all Jews who are in Christ will be saved, the remnant that God elected, chosen before the creation of the world. In Romans 9 Paull quotes Hosea 2:25-27 saying that the people that were not Gods people, are now HIs people, sons of the living God. And Paul quotes Isaiah 10_20-23 and Hosea 1:10 concerning Israel, that though the number of the children of Israel be as sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
Romans 11:2 says that God has not cast away his people which He foreknew...And in verse 5 Paul says that that there is a remnant according to election by grace reserved for salvation. Paul says that ethnic Israel has been blinded, and have a spirit of slumber, their eyes do not see and ears do not hear.
Paul then goes on to explain the two olive trees, .....cont.
Pt. 3
Jesus (called Israel by God) was also a nation of One until He added to the nation of true Israel with the redeemed, those who are in Him by faith (including Abraham).
This true Israel is a physical and a spiritual people. Jesus was ethically and Jew but also God. His church is a spiritual people of God. In the NT, the people of God is no longer ethnic Israel, the kingdom was taken from them and given to believers. Ethnic Israel's purpose was completed in Christ's first advent.
Jesus was clear that they no longer were recipients of the kingdom on the Messiah. In predicting the downfall of Jerusalem and it coming to pass, utterly destroying the city, temple, and 1.1 million Jews died. Not only was the city destroyed, the temple where God once dwelled upon the mercy seat, was cast down. The OT Mosaic religious rites were ended with the destruction of the temple. The Jews that were left were scattered and taken as prisoners becoming slaves once again. The nation of Israel was technically destroyed in the siege, but also their religion was also stopped in the sense of being able to offer the daily sacrifices, follow the commands of God at Sinai, and celebrate the feasts that required Jewish males to come to Jerusalem to do the rites required of the feasts in the temple. (bring their offerings to the priest) The fulfillment of this prophecies left the whole house of Judah desolate.
Instead of repenting and turning to Jesus after this destruction, the Rabbis spoke and taught blasphemously about Jesus, and still do to this day, many of these blasphemies are recorded in the Talmud, Mishnah and other writings that emerged after the desolation of Jerusalem. Judaism became more occultic after this becoming more "mystical". The Rabbis led the Jews further and further away for God and their Messiah. They remain this way today as a whole. But there is a remnant that have been born again in Christ. They joined the True Israel of God in Christ......cont.
Romans 9:6-8 "..For not all are not Israel, that are of Israel." Calling out the ethnic Jews as being "uncitizened" so to speak as being genetically of Israel. Paul say, NO they are not all Israel. 2 Cor. 1:20 says "....For all the promises of God find their Yes in Him..." The promises to Abraham are fulfilled in Jesus and Jesus alone fulfills all of the promises of God. God always had His Son in view when making these promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These were not promises only made to Abraham, but re-promised to Isaac, and to Jacob, and then centuries later to the nation of Israel. So if Jesus is the true and absolute Seed of In Abraham, Isaac AND Jacob (Israel).
In Isaiah 49:1-7 the servant of the Lord (Messiah) is called "Israel" in whom God will be glorified. Also in this passage this servant is called God will give His servant (Messiah) as a "light to the Gentiles" Here God plainly speaks of the Messiah as Israel. Verse 2 says that God has made His servant's mouth like a sharp sword. This passage refers to God's servant as Israel, a light to the Gentiles, having a mouth like a sharp sword, the Holy One, Redeemer, who will be despised, who the NATION aborrheth.
In Luke 2:28-32 Simeon prophesies about Jesus when His parents brought Him to the temple. In his prophesying Simeon refers to Isaiah 49:6 as Jesus being the light to the Gentiles. This citation by Luke shows that the "servant, Israel" spoken of in Isaiah 49:1-7 is referring to Jesus. (See also Jn 1:5-11; 8:12.
So, the ethnic Israelites were a type or shadow pointing to the true Israel, Jesus who fulfilled all the requirements of the Law as a jew. God said several times from heaven, that He was well pleased with Jesus, His Son.
When we speak of end times events we do need to not weave a narrative that is not stated in the NT Scriptures, as the OT Covenant was ended in Jesus' advent and the New Covenant in Jesus (as Jacob was a nation of one when called by God as Israel....cont.
The promise to Isaac was a double prophecy and I believe that Abraham knew this as Paul says that the gospel was preached to Abraham in his time. ( Eph. 3:8) He knew the Messiah would come from his lineage through Isaac.
IN Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 in speaking to the churches Jesus says that those who say they are Jews (attesting to be ethnically Jews), they truly are not the people of God, but Jesus calls them a synagogue of Satan. Thus identifying them as unfaithful, apostate, and wicked as an ethnic group. This is due to them rejecting Jesus, the Messiah they were hoping for as prophesied, but whose ears were made deaf, and eyes blind, so that they were unable to recognize their Messiah and acknowledge Him as Jesus.
cont.
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