Warning: session_start(): open(/var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80/sess_fth6am0htdmhjkroh2tt6nkhio, O_RDWR) failed: No space left on device (28) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2
Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 215006
1. What Judas did, he did before the devil came in him. Jesus decided this. This was meant from the beginning.
2. HE knows about everything because he has planned everything.
3. If one is the bone of one's life to be a thief and constantly fall back on that sin, do we know that God is faithful yet and will forgive.
3. God knows our hearts. Same what!
I bevive that all who Confess sin, will be forgiven of the Highest Lord Jesus Christ. He has a room for Judas becouse He was one of the Disciples. There is grace over grace.
From a human standpoint, the answer to your first four questions would be no. But I do believe that God can use evil people to fulfill His will, or to fulfill prophecy. Jesus chose Judas, an evil person, to fulfill prophecy. Judas didn't become evil at some point during the three years he was amongst the group. Judas was evil all along. He was a thief and a robber, stealing from the money bag during the three years. He was stealing even before he committed betrayal. Jesus chose Judas for a specific purpose. Jesus knew when He chose Judas, that he would be the one to betray Him.
As far as the word sinner goes, we are all sinners. Even a saved person is not free from sin.
My answer to question #5 would be no, it doesn't seem logical to me.
Question #6: The bible does not give an answer to that.
Question #7: The answer to that is yes. Some church groups practice infant baptism. However, it is my belief that water baptism comes after a person is born-again. Water baptism is an outward testimony of what has taken place (Salvation) in a believer's life.
I see nothing that would indicate to me that Judas was born-again. Some believe that because he was part of the 12, that he was saved (born again), and then at the end he lost his salvation. But if we're talking about logic, how would it be logical for God to place His Spirit in someone, and then turn around and remove His Spirit from them so Satan can enter in, as in the case of Judas?
Well it is obvious that w/baptism was something very important that had to be done immediately after one believes with no delay at all. Whether one believes it is a matter of salvation or not we can agree about the importance of w/baptism.
(Water baptizm is a "must", it is not a choice. It must be done without delay after new birth. It is a landmark which denotes the death of the old sinful man and the resurrection of the new godly man. It is the end of the old sinful course in life and the begining of the new godly life. It must be done. My belief)
So I assume (and it is a very good assumption which relys on the scriptures) that the apostles must had been water baptized. If they were so persistive to others to do it, do you think that they themselves avoided it? Would they had avoided doing something that Jesus ordered?
Also for me it is not logical at all that they baptized others when they themselves avoided it. That would have been a contradiction.
So a good conclusion is that they were all born again and were water baptized. That is my perception when studying the scriptures.
You wrote, "But if we're talking about logic, how would it be logical for God to place His Spirit in someone, and then turn around and remove His Spirit from them so Satan can enter in, as in the case of Judas?".
What makes you think that Judas had the Spirit of God in him. That was done at Pentecost and Judas was already dead.
I'll come back here tomorrow Jesse. Thanks. Maybe we have tired the other folks about Judas?
That statement I made was not to say that Judas had the Spirit of God in Him. I know that none of the original 12 apostles had the indwelling of God's Spirit. And yes, I understand what took place at Pentecost.
Also, reading through all 3 parts of what you posted, I see you have placed a lot of emphasis on the importance of water baptism. I agree with you completely. I have stated multiple times on this forum that I believe water baptism is very important.
Also, you said that baptism of infants is not valid since they can not understand, believe, repent, etc.
Giannis, I couldn't agree with you more on that one! I did state that some church groups practice this, but I didn't say I agreed with it. I believe it is invalid like you say.
Also John 4:1-2 also says that Jesus baptized disciples and that His disciples also baptized. So I believe that Jesus baptized His called disciples and the disciples baptized other disciples.
John 4:22-23 speaks of Jesus baptizing when John the Baptist was baptizing also. John directed people towards Jesus saying, He must increase and I must decrease. Perhaps this was when Jesus baptized His disciples or maybe another time that Jesus was baptizing in water. Jesus set the example by being baptized, but also most likely did with baptizing the disciples and others as a regular practice.. Most likely the disciples had seen Him baptize others often or each other being baptized. So when He commanded them to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, the disciples must have known well what He meant and how baptism was done.
I do not know for certainty that Jesus actually water baptized anyone. I do know for a fact that His disciples did.
I did see your post to myself and Giannis. Please know that I am not ignoring you. I need a little more time to take a look John Chapter 3 before I can give a proper response.
Life has been busy for me the past few weeks, but I will get back with you soon.
Jesse, I guess I read in John 3:22 that it says he spent time with his disciples (the twelve) and baptized. S, I think this is when He baptized His disciples.
In John 4:1-2 It says that Jesus did not baptized, but the disciples. I take this to mean that He only baptized His disciples and then they baptized the others that came to be baptized.
I guess this interpretation may be reasonable because it is doubtful that He would have His disciples baptize others if He had not baptized them first.
So, maybe you can shed some light on this as far as Greek meaning.
I am still reading and pondering on a few things before I finish responding. One thing that comes to mind, and I thought I might run it by you for your thoughts, but would it have been possible that the 12 may have already been baptized by John before Jesus called them, since John was already baptizing people?
Just a thought. I finished responding as soon as I can.
Jesse this is a thought. I don't know how soon after Jesus was baptized that he called his disciples but it seems pretty soon after. We also do not know where they were when they were called except for Peter and Andrew James and John who were fishing, and Matthew was sitting at his tax collecting booth most likely in the city. Most of His disciples were Galileans. But I don't know exactly where John was baptizing. Jesus' baptismal site is located along the Jordan River about near Jericho.
At the time in John 4, Jesus had already called His disciples I believe. This is why I think they were baptized by Jesus.
I don't think we can know definitively concerning this. The passage in John 3 says that Jesus was baptizing. We do not know if this incident was the same as John 4 or another time. It could be either.
For now, I will welcome your response, but I do not think this matter is so important that we go back and forth on it for long.
I agree, this matter is not that important. My original question to Giannis had nothing to do with water baptism and I did not want to get into a discussion about water baptism because that's one of those topics that always ends up in disagreement. So I don't have anymore to add.
GiGi mentioned John 3:26, "And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.".
Also John 3:22, "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized."
Also John 4:1-2, "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"
So the understanding I have concurs with GiGi's. Jesus baptized his first disciples. then those baptized the next ones and so on.
GiGi it is important in the sence that if the apostles were baptized, so was Judas. But new birth precedes w/baptism, so Judas was saved. That is what all this discussion was all about.
Giannis, thank you for the addition Scriptural information and understanding of this topic.
And, yes, the original discussion was about Judas, and so, it may be time to close this thread and begin a new one on baptism, if you wish. For me, I think it is time for me to exit this thread. God's blessings to you and Jesse, always.
Most of the apostles were John's disciples before joining Jesus. In that incident just before Pentecost when the apostles were to choose another disciple in Judas' place, Peter said to the rest of them, ( Acts 1:21-22) "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, BEGINING FROM THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.". Some like Matthew were not John's disciples, but I suppose a large number of them were. Surely Peter, Andrew, John, James (the incident in the sea of Galilee), also Phillip and Nathanael ( John 1:45-52). So at least 6 out 12.
Were they baptized John's baptism?
In Luke 7:29-30 Jesus said to Pharisees, "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.".
Also in Luke 3:3 says, "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;"
So it was the counsel of God Hebrews to be baptized (how about the christian baptism?). Also it was for the remission of sins. So it was something so important that John's disciples had to do. Once John baptized others even Jesus, didn't he baptize his own disciples? So they were all baptized John's baptism.
Where they baptised the christian baptism later on? In Acts 19: 4-5 when Paul meets those disciples in Ephessus told them, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." So all had to be baptised again in the name of Jesus. So as a conclusion the apostles were baptized both tJohn's and the christian baptism.
Hello , I hope you don't mind me interjecting . Just thinking about baptism , surely no one could be baptized into Christ while he was alive in his earthly body ? Romans Ch 6 verse 3+4
. John's baptism was until Christ's death and resurection and after that people would have been baptized into Christ ? That's my understanding . I guess that must mean that a lot of people were re baptized after Christ's ascension ? Acts Ch 19 verse 1-5 .
If you take those verses you presented chronologically I believe it explains itself.
John 3:22-26. "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
For John was not yet cast into prison.
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."
Then in John 4:1-2 the Pharisees took notice of this but verse 2 explains it.
Vs 2. ( Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
John's ministry was about up.
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. John 1:6-8."
John was to present the one in the loins of Abraham prophesied to come into the world in the OT.
John the baptist baptism was for Israel to turn/repent from Judaism.
Luke 1:16-17.
Malachi 4:5-6.
He announced one coming for the lost sheep of Israel.
Next. Were the apostles born again when Jesus was with them? John 13:10, "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.". So they were "clean". That means they were already born again and saved. Judas here is not called clean not because he wasn't saved but because he was already sinning. How do we know that? Because Jesus washed Judas feet as well, but not Judas' whole body.
So they were saved. Were they w/baptized?
There are so many cases in Acts that show how important water baptism is. The apostles always asked believers to be water baptized as soon as they believed.
1) The incident with Phillip and eunuch,
2) Peter preaching at Pentecost, Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.",
3) the incident with Cornelius, Acts 10:47, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?",
4) Philipp in Samaria, Acts 8:12, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.",
5) Paul himself, Acts 9:18, "And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."
6) Paul with the disciples in Ephessus, Acts 19:3, "And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism"
7) And most important of all is the commadment Jesus gave to apostles before His departure, Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
About Judas. You said that Jesus selected him although He knew he was a thief so that the prophesy will be fulfilled. It doesn't sound right to me. Why would Jesus do that? Do you think that the only solution for Him to be led to the cross was Judas? Or do you believe that Judas was the one and only one solution available to Jews to capture Jesus? Of course if Judas was not present they would have found another way to capture Jesus, any other way, anytime in the future. They would never let Him free for ever, that's for sure. They could have sent their servants to capture Jesus after passover (so no need to fear the people) without having to bribe Judas. Jesus' ministry was over so He wouldn't go away like he had done before. But instead of that Jesus prefered the "Judas solution"? Well, I can not believe that. But all that is an imaginary senario.
But let's go through another path. You must be a bit patient to follow me.
Water baptism. What is water baptism? Among others it is a formal confession of faith to Jesus. When is it done? Definetely after one believes.
When that eunuch asked Phillip to be water baptized Phillip asked him, Acts 9:36-37, "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.".
So the requirement for one to be eligible to be w/baptized is to believe in Jesus with all his heart, which means a real and sincere faith. So baptism of infants is not valid since they can not understand, believe, repent, etc.
So we can agree that w/baptism succeeds new birth. Right?
Good answers brother Jesse. I've been observing your interactions here & elsewhere, but kept out of it so that your attention be focussed. But just popping in here now, to make some general observations, but not necessarily seeking comments.
a. Judas' spiritual condition. I believe that none of the twelve were Christians. They may have portrayed that name (Christian) by following Jesus & being discipled by Him, but could not be considered to be Christians as defined post Acts chap 2. When Jesus sent them out to the lost sheep of Israel, He gave them power for that specific ministry & time ( Matthew 10:1-8), just as certain people in the OT received God's Spirit to accomplish their tasks ( Numbers 11:25-27; Othniel, Judges 3:10; Gideon, Judges 6:34; Jephthah, Judges 11:29; Isaiah 59:21; & many more) - none of these were permanently indwelt by the Spirit, but the Spirit was given by God for a special purpose. As you mentioned, Judas & the other eleven were all sinners, but the day would come when they would be transformed (except Judas who suicided), & do great exploits in Jesus' Name.
b. Water baptism. After the twelve (now Matthias is included here) had the Holy Spirit come upon them, and in them & baptized them with the evidence of speaking in 'unlearned' tongues, were these apostles ever water baptized? I never recall any of them writing of that event taking place in their lives. Of course, Paul did, but he was not of the twelve, as "one born out of due time", but were the twelve ever baptized in water? Jesus had left them before this time, so He couldn't do it and there was no one else that was born again at that time to do it, so I wonder what happened. Some maintain that they were definitely baptized, but there's no evidence of it, & if not baptized, then the apostles would have still baptized others. Or I've heard, that they baptized each other, which doesn't make sense as their testimony was the same. So maybe an unbaptized believer can baptize another.
It is almost 3 in the morning here so I am off to bed. I will be back with you tomorrow. By the way here today(Sunday) is Easter. The Orthodox church doesn't celebrate Easter the same time the Catholics or some Protestants do. So happy Easter.
Sorry I didn't answer your post yesterday but it was too late at night here and I went to bed.
I see you have removed your post but I will still answer you.
You asked if I can provide you with a scripture that shows that Judas was born again.
My answer is no, I can not provide you with such a scriprure.
But I also want to ask you a some questions.
!. Is it logical that God selects a sinner for a ministry, especially that of an apostle of the inner circle of Jesus?
2. Is it logical that God sents a sinner to preach salvation to people?
3. Is it logical that God selects a sinner and gives him power to heal and perform miracles?
4. Is it logical that God gives power to a sinner to cast out demons?
5. Is it logical that God sents a sinner to baptize in water people?
6. Can somebody who is not water baptized, baptize others?
7. Can somebody be water baptized if he is not born again first?
GBU
1. What Judas did, he did before the devil came in him. Jesus decided this. This was meant from the beginning.
2. HE knows about everything because he has planned everything.
3. If one is the bone of one's life to be a thief and constantly fall back on that sin, do we know that God is faithful yet and will forgive.
3. God knows our hearts. Same what!
I bevive that all who Confess sin, will be forgiven of the Highest Lord Jesus Christ. He has a room for Judas becouse He was one of the Disciples. There is grace over grace.
Jesus come with love and peace.
Love u all in Christ. Ephesians 3 chapter
From a human standpoint, the answer to your first four questions would be no. But I do believe that God can use evil people to fulfill His will, or to fulfill prophecy. Jesus chose Judas, an evil person, to fulfill prophecy. Judas didn't become evil at some point during the three years he was amongst the group. Judas was evil all along. He was a thief and a robber, stealing from the money bag during the three years. He was stealing even before he committed betrayal. Jesus chose Judas for a specific purpose. Jesus knew when He chose Judas, that he would be the one to betray Him.
As far as the word sinner goes, we are all sinners. Even a saved person is not free from sin.
My answer to question #5 would be no, it doesn't seem logical to me.
Question #6: The bible does not give an answer to that.
Question #7: The answer to that is yes. Some church groups practice infant baptism. However, it is my belief that water baptism comes after a person is born-again. Water baptism is an outward testimony of what has taken place (Salvation) in a believer's life.
I see nothing that would indicate to me that Judas was born-again. Some believe that because he was part of the 12, that he was saved (born again), and then at the end he lost his salvation. But if we're talking about logic, how would it be logical for God to place His Spirit in someone, and then turn around and remove His Spirit from them so Satan can enter in, as in the case of Judas?
Blessings to you also!
Jesse
Well it is obvious that w/baptism was something very important that had to be done immediately after one believes with no delay at all. Whether one believes it is a matter of salvation or not we can agree about the importance of w/baptism.
(Water baptizm is a "must", it is not a choice. It must be done without delay after new birth. It is a landmark which denotes the death of the old sinful man and the resurrection of the new godly man. It is the end of the old sinful course in life and the begining of the new godly life. It must be done. My belief)
So I assume (and it is a very good assumption which relys on the scriptures) that the apostles must had been water baptized. If they were so persistive to others to do it, do you think that they themselves avoided it? Would they had avoided doing something that Jesus ordered?
Also for me it is not logical at all that they baptized others when they themselves avoided it. That would have been a contradiction.
So a good conclusion is that they were all born again and were water baptized. That is my perception when studying the scriptures.
You wrote, "But if we're talking about logic, how would it be logical for God to place His Spirit in someone, and then turn around and remove His Spirit from them so Satan can enter in, as in the case of Judas?".
What makes you think that Judas had the Spirit of God in him. That was done at Pentecost and Judas was already dead.
I'll come back here tomorrow Jesse. Thanks. Maybe we have tired the other folks about Judas?
GBU
That statement I made was not to say that Judas had the Spirit of God in Him. I know that none of the original 12 apostles had the indwelling of God's Spirit. And yes, I understand what took place at Pentecost.
Also, reading through all 3 parts of what you posted, I see you have placed a lot of emphasis on the importance of water baptism. I agree with you completely. I have stated multiple times on this forum that I believe water baptism is very important.
Also, you said that baptism of infants is not valid since they can not understand, believe, repent, etc.
Giannis, I couldn't agree with you more on that one! I did state that some church groups practice this, but I didn't say I agreed with it. I believe it is invalid like you say.
Thanks!
Also John 4:1-2 also says that Jesus baptized disciples and that His disciples also baptized. So I believe that Jesus baptized His called disciples and the disciples baptized other disciples.
John 4:22-23 speaks of Jesus baptizing when John the Baptist was baptizing also. John directed people towards Jesus saying, He must increase and I must decrease. Perhaps this was when Jesus baptized His disciples or maybe another time that Jesus was baptizing in water. Jesus set the example by being baptized, but also most likely did with baptizing the disciples and others as a regular practice.. Most likely the disciples had seen Him baptize others often or each other being baptized. So when He commanded them to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, the disciples must have known well what He meant and how baptism was done.
I do not know for certainty that Jesus actually water baptized anyone. I do know for a fact that His disciples did.
I did see your post to myself and Giannis. Please know that I am not ignoring you. I need a little more time to take a look John Chapter 3 before I can give a proper response.
Life has been busy for me the past few weeks, but I will get back with you soon.
God bless!
In John 4:1-2 It says that Jesus did not baptized, but the disciples. I take this to mean that He only baptized His disciples and then they baptized the others that came to be baptized.
I guess this interpretation may be reasonable because it is doubtful that He would have His disciples baptize others if He had not baptized them first.
So, maybe you can shed some light on this as far as Greek meaning.
I'll finish responding as soon as I can.
I am still reading and pondering on a few things before I finish responding. One thing that comes to mind, and I thought I might run it by you for your thoughts, but would it have been possible that the 12 may have already been baptized by John before Jesus called them, since John was already baptizing people?
Just a thought. I finished responding as soon as I can.
Blessings to you in Christ Jesus!
At the time in John 4, Jesus had already called His disciples I believe. This is why I think they were baptized by Jesus.
I don't think we can know definitively concerning this. The passage in John 3 says that Jesus was baptizing. We do not know if this incident was the same as John 4 or another time. It could be either.
For now, I will welcome your response, but I do not think this matter is so important that we go back and forth on it for long.
I agree, this matter is not that important. My original question to Giannis had nothing to do with water baptism and I did not want to get into a discussion about water baptism because that's one of those topics that always ends up in disagreement. So I don't have anymore to add.
Have a blessed nights rest.
GiGi mentioned John 3:26, "And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.".
Also John 3:22, "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized."
Also John 4:1-2, "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"
So the understanding I have concurs with GiGi's. Jesus baptized his first disciples. then those baptized the next ones and so on.
GiGi it is important in the sence that if the apostles were baptized, so was Judas. But new birth precedes w/baptism, so Judas was saved. That is what all this discussion was all about.
GBU
And, yes, the original discussion was about Judas, and so, it may be time to close this thread and begin a new one on baptism, if you wish. For me, I think it is time for me to exit this thread. God's blessings to you and Jesse, always.
Hello Jesse, and GiGi
Most of the apostles were John's disciples before joining Jesus. In that incident just before Pentecost when the apostles were to choose another disciple in Judas' place, Peter said to the rest of them, ( Acts 1:21-22) "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, BEGINING FROM THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.". Some like Matthew were not John's disciples, but I suppose a large number of them were. Surely Peter, Andrew, John, James (the incident in the sea of Galilee), also Phillip and Nathanael ( John 1:45-52). So at least 6 out 12.
Were they baptized John's baptism?
In Luke 7:29-30 Jesus said to Pharisees, "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.".
Also in Luke 3:3 says, "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;"
So it was the counsel of God Hebrews to be baptized (how about the christian baptism?). Also it was for the remission of sins. So it was something so important that John's disciples had to do. Once John baptized others even Jesus, didn't he baptize his own disciples? So they were all baptized John's baptism.
Where they baptised the christian baptism later on? In Acts 19: 4-5 when Paul meets those disciples in Ephessus told them, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." So all had to be baptised again in the name of Jesus. So as a conclusion the apostles were baptized both tJohn's and the christian baptism.
. John's baptism was until Christ's death and resurection and after that people would have been baptized into Christ ? That's my understanding . I guess that must mean that a lot of people were re baptized after Christ's ascension ? Acts Ch 19 verse 1-5 .
Is John 4:22-23 your intended scripture?
Perhaps you meant another.
God bless.
I meant to write John 3:22-23. Thanks for catching that.
Jesus certainly was overseeing some baptizing.
If you take those verses you presented chronologically I believe it explains itself.
John 3:22-26. "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
For John was not yet cast into prison.
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."
Then in John 4:1-2 the Pharisees took notice of this but verse 2 explains it.
Vs 2. ( Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
John's ministry was about up.
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. John 1:6-8."
John was to present the one in the loins of Abraham prophesied to come into the world in the OT.
John the baptist baptism was for Israel to turn/repent from Judaism.
Luke 1:16-17.
Malachi 4:5-6.
He announced one coming for the lost sheep of Israel.
God bless.
Thank you for breaking down that scriptural passage concerning Jesus and the disciples baptizing.
Next. Were the apostles born again when Jesus was with them? John 13:10, "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.". So they were "clean". That means they were already born again and saved. Judas here is not called clean not because he wasn't saved but because he was already sinning. How do we know that? Because Jesus washed Judas feet as well, but not Judas' whole body.
So they were saved. Were they w/baptized?
There are so many cases in Acts that show how important water baptism is. The apostles always asked believers to be water baptized as soon as they believed.
1) The incident with Phillip and eunuch,
2) Peter preaching at Pentecost, Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.",
3) the incident with Cornelius, Acts 10:47, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?",
4) Philipp in Samaria, Acts 8:12, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.",
5) Paul himself, Acts 9:18, "And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."
6) Paul with the disciples in Ephessus, Acts 19:3, "And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism"
7) And most important of all is the commadment Jesus gave to apostles before His departure, Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
Hello Jesse
About Judas. You said that Jesus selected him although He knew he was a thief so that the prophesy will be fulfilled. It doesn't sound right to me. Why would Jesus do that? Do you think that the only solution for Him to be led to the cross was Judas? Or do you believe that Judas was the one and only one solution available to Jews to capture Jesus? Of course if Judas was not present they would have found another way to capture Jesus, any other way, anytime in the future. They would never let Him free for ever, that's for sure. They could have sent their servants to capture Jesus after passover (so no need to fear the people) without having to bribe Judas. Jesus' ministry was over so He wouldn't go away like he had done before. But instead of that Jesus prefered the "Judas solution"? Well, I can not believe that. But all that is an imaginary senario.
But let's go through another path. You must be a bit patient to follow me.
Water baptism. What is water baptism? Among others it is a formal confession of faith to Jesus. When is it done? Definetely after one believes.
When that eunuch asked Phillip to be water baptized Phillip asked him, Acts 9:36-37, "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.".
So the requirement for one to be eligible to be w/baptized is to believe in Jesus with all his heart, which means a real and sincere faith. So baptism of infants is not valid since they can not understand, believe, repent, etc.
So we can agree that w/baptism succeeds new birth. Right?
a. Judas' spiritual condition. I believe that none of the twelve were Christians. They may have portrayed that name (Christian) by following Jesus & being discipled by Him, but could not be considered to be Christians as defined post Acts chap 2. When Jesus sent them out to the lost sheep of Israel, He gave them power for that specific ministry & time ( Matthew 10:1-8), just as certain people in the OT received God's Spirit to accomplish their tasks ( Numbers 11:25-27; Othniel, Judges 3:10; Gideon, Judges 6:34; Jephthah, Judges 11:29; Isaiah 59:21; & many more) - none of these were permanently indwelt by the Spirit, but the Spirit was given by God for a special purpose. As you mentioned, Judas & the other eleven were all sinners, but the day would come when they would be transformed (except Judas who suicided), & do great exploits in Jesus' Name.
b. Water baptism. After the twelve (now Matthias is included here) had the Holy Spirit come upon them, and in them & baptized them with the evidence of speaking in 'unlearned' tongues, were these apostles ever water baptized? I never recall any of them writing of that event taking place in their lives. Of course, Paul did, but he was not of the twelve, as "one born out of due time", but were the twelve ever baptized in water? Jesus had left them before this time, so He couldn't do it and there was no one else that was born again at that time to do it, so I wonder what happened. Some maintain that they were definitely baptized, but there's no evidence of it, & if not baptized, then the apostles would have still baptized others. Or I've heard, that they baptized each other, which doesn't make sense as their testimony was the same. So maybe an unbaptized believer can baptize another.
It is almost 3 in the morning here so I am off to bed. I will be back with you tomorrow. By the way here today(Sunday) is Easter. The Orthodox church doesn't celebrate Easter the same time the Catholics or some Protestants do. So happy Easter.
GBU
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?