Bible Discussion Thread

Hello all . Can I ask a question please ? Does any one out there believe that we / Christians , are now Israel ? If yes why ? If no why ? Just interested in every ones thoughts on this , thankyou .

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But all that is OT prophecy. Has Israel been blotted out because of their stubbornness, & only the Church is what is on God's Mind as His new Israel? I believe that God cherishes His Church (those of Israel & the Gentiles purchased with His Son's Blood), yet yearns for His chosen ones to whom His covenants were given.

The Apostle Paul shares much on this: we read of his yearning for his people & the promise that they will come to the Lord, when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come inAnd so all Israel shall be saved" ( Romans 11:25-27). He isn't referring here to a reconstructed/renamed Israel comprising believing Jews & Gentiles; Paul sees not only the Church (saved Jew & Gentile) in his many writings but also that Israel as a nation/people will continue to exist & play a major part in the end-times. To remove Israel completely out of the end-time picture, would also remove much from the Word that speaks of them as a nation (see also Hebrews 8:8-12 & Jeremiah 31:31-34 for the New Covenant which applies to all now, & will still find it's complete fulfilment in Israel's restoration in the end times). Even Jesus proclaimed that, "Ye (Israel) shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" ( Matthew 23:39) - I wonder when that time will be? ( Zechariah 12:9,10).

Chris

Thanks or your thoughts here.

We can all pray for a change of heart for all people for a great harvest of new believers in this present age. And we can pray that many of these believers will be Israelites.

Well stated Brother Chris.

Zechariah 12:9,10 definitely wasn't fulfilled ar the cross,

In 1 Corinthians 15:8 Paul says he was born out of due time and when he wrote to the Romans he stated they were still blinded.

2 Corinthians 3:13-16 he mentions this and the veil upon their heart.

When their heart shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

The veil is still on their heart today "Until" the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God bless.

Thanks for your reply Chris . I used to believe exactly the same as you , just in the last few years of reading I'm starting to think about Jesus parables and straight out words and I'm leaning in a different direction now . I'm very cautious and careful about commiting myself , I guess you could say I'm a slow learner :) . We shall understand everything one day , may that day be soon . Thanks again .

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Hi Jema. Thank you for your question. I'm amongst those who believe, according to God's Word, that Israel have been, presently is, & will ever be a special people appointed & preserved by God, and to whom all the promises of the OT were made & will be fulfilled. The Church stands only on the merits of God reaching out to the world with the Gospel of His Christ, that we too might receive the opportunity & blessing that was given to Israel, but they spurned God's Love, resting on their heritage & misunderstanding of the Scriptures. All Israel, as all unbelieving Gentiles rejecting the offer of Salvation are doomed - those saved from Israel & the Gentiles now, are received as God's special possession, incorporated in His Church. Yet, Israel as a people will be kept & will go into that time of "Jacob's Trouble": Jeremiah 30:7 (the Great Tribulation), to the end that God's Purposes for them will be fulfilled & those who turn to the Lord, will reign with Him in His Kingdom. In other words, another opportunity will be given them & also to the Gentiles during that time of Great Tribulation to turn to Jesus. Surely Israel will respond to the Messiah now, won't they?

The Bible indicates there would be two re-gatherings of Israel (the first was in Jeremiah 29:10 after a 70 year captivity). The second, would be from every nation where they had been dispersed ( Jeremiah 30:3; Jeremiah 16:14,15, Jeremiah 23:3,7,8; Jeremiah 29:14). For the last 120 years or so, more than 3.5 million Jews have returned back to their God-given land, from all points of the globe, fulfilling God's Promises ( Isaiah 43:5-7). See Page 2.

Jema,

Pt. 4 final

They will be grafted back into the root who come to Him in faith ( Rom. 11:23). So the true Israel is in Jesus. The Church fulfills all that was promised to Israel and CONTINUES the spiritual heritage of Israel and all who believe enter the SPIRITUAL kingdom of God in Christ for all eternity.

Judaism and the Jewish nation were brought to an end in A.D. 70 when the Romans decimated the population and demolished the city of Jerusalem and its temple which was the center of the Jews worship and religious rites. This was prophesied by Jesus and enacted by God because the Messiah had come who is the fulfillment of all the Old Testaments promises and covenants. The Jews rejected Him outright. God brought judgment upon the Jews, Judaism, and Jerusalem in A.D. 70 not just to punish the Jews, but also to end Judaism so that Jews can then have more incentive to turn to Jesus to be saved. And in being saved, they entered what was the true "end" of the promises and prophecies for Israel, that is the fulfillment and transfer of the ethnic nation of Israel to the spiritual people of Israel in Jesus.

After months and months of study, I find that I align more with covenant theology concerning Israel and definitely not with Dispensational theology that keeps Israel and the Church distinct and separate for eternity. The New Testament just doesn't teach this distinction nor tell sus to interpret Scripture with this distinction in mind. Rather, Paul tells us that believing Jews and Gentiles are one man in Christ ( Gal 3.28), so we are not to keep Israel separate from the church because the church is the people of Israel in Jesus Christ. Unbelieving Israelites and Gentiles are to be kept distinct from the Church. There are only two people groups in the world and history: the church and unbelievers. This is where the distinction lies. Period.

Also, Gal. 2:8 is where the gospel was preached to Abraham.

I hope this helps, Jema. I interpet the OT with the NT.

Jema,

Pt. 3

Romans 10 3 says that Israel was ignorant of God's righteousness (in Christ) and sought to establish their own righteousness and did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God (in Christ).

Rom. 11 begins by saying: "Has God cast away His people (Israel)? vs. 2 God has not cast away His people HE FOREKNEW."

Vs. 5 says that God has preserved a REMNANT of Israel that is of election by grace. So Paul says that only those of the remnant of Israel will be saved. Vs. 7 says that Israel as a whole have not attained that which they seeketh (righteousness before God), but those that are elected (the remnant) have received .., the rest being blinded. But there is a promise of God saving those of Israel who are of election.

In 1 Peter 1:9 Peter says that believers in Jesus are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.". Here Peter is using terminology that was once used for Israel ( dt. 7:16; 10:15) to equate the church with Israel.

Covenant theology does not say that Israel (or the Jews are replaced by the Church, but that all of the promises given to the nation through Abraham are expressly fulfilled in Jesus Christ, who is perfect ethnic Israel and perfect SPIRITUAL Israel in one person. All of the promises of God are "YES" in Jesus ( 2 Cor. 1:20). All that God promised to Israel are fulfilled in Christ. ( Gal. 3:19, Therefore, all believers are heirs of these promises that were made to Israel. Jesus and the Church are the continuation of TRUE Israel. Any Israelite who believes in Jesus is a true Israelite, ( Rom. 9:6-7). Paul says in the discourse of the two olive trees in Rom. 11, that those Israelites who did not believe were cut off of the root (that is holy, meaning Jesus), true Israel) and those gentiles that believe will be grafted into the root. And also, if those Israelites (Jews) who are in unbelief turn to Jesus and believe.....cont.

Gal 3:8

Jema, I write all of this because Paul speaks so

Jema Thats a good question. In ( Mt. 21:23) the chief priests and elder of the people came unto him as he was teaching. So the words spoken by Jesus in ( Mt. 21:42-43) where spoken to them. v43 Tells us "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (What is the greatest Christian Nation in the world? The USA!) What many call the lost tribes of Israel are not lost they are exactly where God placed them or scattered them for the End-times. ( Jer. 50:17) Tells us (Israel) is a scattered sheep". The word (Israel) is #3478; it means he will rule (as) God; a symbolic name of Jacob, also typically ((of his posterity)). His posterity are the 12 tribes. (Israel) in the Lastdays are the tribes, the sons of Jacob or their bloodlines (which is his posterity) In ( Rev. 7:3-8) We see 12,000 from each tribe sealed, and they are called "all the tribes of the children of Israel". The Jews do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, ( Rom. 8:14-16) "For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God". The Jews are not being lead by the Spirit of God, then or now. Now the tribe of Ephraim got the double Blessing in ( Gen. 48:16-20) The word (nations) in v19 is #1342; it means to mount up, in general to rise (fig) be majestic, gloriously, grow up, increase, be risen, triumph. (That is the USA, in which the land received the double blessing) Now in ( Deuteronomy. 33:13-17) It shows us the blessings of the land of Joseph which was passed down to Ephraim. Which is the greatest Christian Nation in the world. The only thing today that can save one is a Belief in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The Jews do not Believe. The posterity of Israel which is the 12 tribes do Believe. Many will disagree with this, but it is what I see from the Word of God. Blessings Jema.

Jema,

Pt. 2

In John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see my (Jesus') day. Abraham knew that the promise God made to him concerning his seed was a prophecy of Jesus, the Seed, promised. Abraham knew that Isaac was a fulfillment of the promise, but also knew that Isaac was foreshadowing Jesus, the Messiah, the true Israel of God because the gospel was preached to Abraham in advance (I'll get you the Scripture citation later).

In Rom. 9:1-6 Paul speaks of his desire for his ethnic people to be saved because of the heritage they received: the covenants, the law, service to God, the promises, and from whom, concerning the fleshy lineage, Christ came (vs.4-5). In vs 6-8 speaks that not all who are of (ethnic) Israel are of Israel (Christ), neither because they are sons of Abraham in the flesh, are they children (of God), but the children of the promise (of Christ) are counted as seed.

Verses 22-27 speaks of God preparing before creation the vessels of His mercy created for Hiis glory and to receive glory. Then Paul says: Even us, not the Jews only but also gentiles citing Hosea 2:23 that God will call those people who are not my people my people and her beloved , which was not beloved (meaning those who are in Christ-the Church) who are now God's people, the children of the living God. That's us!

Verse 27 speaks of Israel as being as many as the sands of the sea, yet only a remnant of ethnic Israel will be saved. And this remnant are those who believe in Jesus. Verse 30-32 speaks of the gentiles who followed not after righteousness from keeping the law have attained righteousness by faith. And Israel, who tried to attain righteousness by keeping the law did not attain righteousness through the law, did not, because they sought righteousness in law-keeping and not in Christ by faith.

Chapter 10 begins with Paul expressing his heartfelt desire and prayer is for Israel to be saved. ....cont.

Hi Jema.

That's a great question.

Eschatology is shaped around this topic. Also Dispensationalism and covenant theology is tested by this in a sense.

This is something I've been wanting to get to for some time now but I've been to busy.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Some say God is done with Israel and the unfulfilled old testament promises was fulfilled in the Church.

And there's others weren't comfortable with that and say those promises was made to the church not " The Nation Israel."

I would direct both of these groups to Isaiah 41:8-9.

"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. ( Seed in this verse is not used in the way it's used in Genesis 22:18.) The seed in Genesis 22:18 relates to a promise of Christ.

Seed in Isaiah 41:8 relates to a nation whom that promised seed would come.

You will see the interpretation of these verses moved around to shape or hold on to a certain espoused eschatology.

When it comes to identifying a people there's three groups as seen in 1 Corinthians 10:32. ( Jews, Gentiles and the Church. )

The rolls and promises to these groups are distinct. Understanding that is important. .

Taking Gods promises literally is also important.

More on this later.

God bless.