Bible Discussion Thread

Hi everyone.

We take what's meant to be literal in the word of God literal. When something is figuratively or is an allegory there's usually a symbol or sign in which the interpretation hinges on.

We use additional scripture to interpret scripture staying as literal as scripture allows. When time is given in scripture, we calculate the time and consider the events prophesied to be.

Here is a topic that I have been wanting to discuss for some time now.

1) The Abrahamic Covenant.

2) The Davidic covenant.

I don't wish to go into this alone and would appreciate help, not by way of debate but a means of study and to investigate scripture in a way one would use forensics to investigate a crime.

Yes, this would be nearly impossible being that the evidence/scripture we would be using would be based off one's interpretation.

However at least we might get a chance to examine our Hermeneutics as well as others.

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. There are two basic types of covenants: conditional and unconditional. A conditional or bilateral covenant is an agreement that is binding on both parties for its fulfillment. Both parties agree to fulfill certain conditions. If either party fails to meet their responsibilities, the covenant is broken and neither party has to fulfill the expectations of the covenant. An unconditional or unilateral covenant is an agreement between two parties, but only one of the two parties has to do something. Nothing is required of the other party.

The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant. The actual covenant is found in Genesis 12:1-3. The ceremony recorded in Genesis 15 indicates the unconditional nature of the covenant. When a covenant was dependent upon both parties keeping commitments, then both parties would pass between the pieces of animals. In Genesis 15, God alone moves between the halves of the animals. Abraham was in a deep sleep.

See Part 2.

OLD TESTAMENT CONFIRMATION OF THE COVENAN.

Part 3.

COMPARING PREMILLENNIAL AND AMILLENNIAL VIEW POINTS.

picking up from Psalms 89:27-37.

According to this psalm the covenant concerns David, his physical seed, and the relationship of his rule to the children of Israel. There is no indication that this kingdom extended to a spiritual entity such as the church nor that the throne in view is the throne of God in heaven rather than the throne of David on earth.

As mentioned previously; in Isaiah 9:6-7 it is stated again that the throne of David is in view:

Yhe throne of David is mentioned specifically and the promise indicates that the fulfillment will go on forever.

In Jeremiah 23:5-6 the reign of the king who is the son of David is described as coming to pass in a day when Judah and Israel shall be saved and dwell safely.

In the verses immediately following, this reign is linked with the regathering of the children of Israel and their occupation of their ancient lands. Jeremiah 23:7-8.

It is certainly extreme spiritualization to take the regathering of Israel as an equivalent of the outcalling of the church and the execution of "justice and righteousness in the land" as being a reference to the rule of Christ in heaven, as amillenarians would need to interpret the passage. This is another strong confirmation that the literal interpretation of the Davidic covenant was intended.

In Jeremiah 30:7-9 another reference is found to the reign of the seed of David and again it is in a context of Israel's future regathering which will be consummated following the great tribulation.

As in other passages, the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant is linked with the return of Israel to the land following their time of Jacob's trouble, as indicated in the preceding verses Jeremiah 30:10-12

Here it is stated that they will serve God and David their king.

See Part 4.

OLD TESTAMENT CONFIRMATION OF THE COVENANT.

Part 2.

In part 1 I briefly gave a premillennialism view point and way of interpreting the Covenant promises.

Here's the amillennial point of view is that the Davidic kingdom promised to David's posterity is not a rule over the house of Israel, but a spiritual rule over the saints fulfilled in Christ's present session at the right hand of God. Such an idea of course is not contained in the Davidic covenant as it is recorded in II Samuel 7, but it is asserted that later Scriptures give this interpretation. For this reason the implications of the provisions of the Davidic covenant can be determined only after ascertaining the interpretation placed upon this covenant by other Old Testament Scriptures. Then a further step must be taken of examining the New Testament treatment of the same subject. Though this can be done only briefly within the limits of our present discussion, some important facts can be cited which decisively determine the ultimate interpretation of the Davidic covenant.

The covenant with David is not only given twice in its major content in

2 Samuel 7 and I Chronicles 17 but it is also confirmed in Psalm 89.

In this and other Old Testament references there is no allusion anywhere to the idea that these promises are to be understood in a spiritualized sense as referring to the church or to a reign of God in heaven.

Rather, it is linked to the earth and to the seed of Israel, and to the land. According to Psalm 89:3-4. It is declared again in Psalms 89:28-34.

It is promised that the seed will endure forever in spite of the specific problem of Israel's sins and departure from God. It is affirmed unalterably that God is going to fulfill His Word to David regardless of what his seed does.

Sew Part 3.

Revelation 2,3 True Repentance

Hiya.... S.Spencer....But i disagree that these Promises are literal.... Gen. 15:1...When God told Abraham i am thy great and exceeding reward that puts in the spiritual realm as God is Spirit...And my words are spirit and life Jesus said.....As Jesus said abide in me and i in you...Its not about a literal land...As Jesus said you must be bornagain of an incorruptible seed....And its not about a literal David....As David was a corruptible being....Thats y Peter is saying in Acts 2:27 Davids tomb is with us to this day...The bible just uses King David as a prophetic of King Christ Jesus...We do not wanna be bornagain by the seed of David...But by the seed of Christ Jesus....And there is no more Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus....God so loved the world....that he gave his only begotten son...We are looking at a heavenly Jerusalem NOW not the old Jerusalem...As Paul said you are come unto mt Zion the city of the living God...That Heavenly Jerusalem... Hebrews 12 :22...But its located with in us....In our hearts and minds are beautiful for situation the joy of the whole world... Rev. 11:15...And i heard a mighty angel saying the KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD HAVE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD AND HIS CHRIST...When David said thou will not leave my soul in hell nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption, It was just prophetic that Christ was not left in hell nor wd God suffer his Holy One to see corruption....It was not about a literal DAVID....But Christ was not left in hell nor did his soul see corruption...Had it been literal King David wd have neva died....Read Acts 2 :27...Peter explains its....But here is the real revelation of all this...Who is the Son that comes out of Christ Loins that is gonna rule and reign for ever ....Its the H.G. That Child of Promise as that which is born of the SPIRIT IS SPIRIT...The H.G.is that child that comes out of Christ loins...When he breathe on them they received the H.G....His breath was his words his seeds...She brought forth a manchild.

Abrahamic Covenant.

Part 2.

In Genesis 15, God alone moves between the halves of the animals. Abraham was in a deep sleep. God's solitary action indicates that the covenant is principally His promise. God binds Himself to the covenant.

Later, God gave Abraham the rite of circumcision as the specific sign of the Abrahamic Covenant ( Genesis 17:9-14). All males in Abraham's line were to be circumcised and thus carry with them a lifelong mark in their flesh that they were part of God's physical blessing in the world. Any descendant of Abraham who refused circumcision was declaring himself to be outside of God's covenant; this explains why God was angry with Moses when Moses failed to circumcise his son ( Exodus 4:24-26).

God determined to call out a special people for Himself, and through that special people He would bless the whole world. The Lord tells Abram,

"I will make you into a great nation,

and I will bless you;

I will make your name great,

and you will be a blessing.

I will bless those who bless you,

and whoever curses you I will curse;

and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you" ( Genesis 12:2-3).

Based on this promise, God later changed Abram's name from Abram ("high father") to Abraham ("father of a multitude") in Genesis 17:5. As we've seen, the Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional. It should also be taken literally. There is no need to spiritualize the promise to Abraham. God's promises to Abraham's descendants will be fulfilled literally.

The Abrahamic Covenant included the promise of land ( Genesis 12:1). It was a specific land, an actual property, with dimensions specified in Genesis 15:18-21. In Genesis 13:15, God gives Abraham all the land that he can see, and the gift is declared to be "forever." God was not going to renege on His promise. The territory given as part of the Abrahamic Covenant is expanded in Deuteronomy 30:1-10, often called the Palestinian Covenant.

See Part 3.

Abrahamic Covenant.

Part 3.

Centuries after Abraham died, the children of Israel took possession of the land under Joshua's leadership ( Joshua 21:43). At no point in history, though, has Israel controlled all of the land God had specified. There remains, therefore, a final fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant that will see Israel occupying their God-given homeland to the fullest extent. The fulfillment will be more than a matter of geography; it will also be a time of holiness and restoration (see Ezekiel 20:40-44 and 36:1-37:28).

The Abrahamic Covenant also promised many descendants ( Genesis 12:2). God promised that the number of Abraham's children would rival that of "the dust of the earth" ( Genesis 15:16). Nations and kings would proceed from him ( Genesis 17:6). It is significant that the promise was given to an aged, childless couple. But Abraham "did not waver through unbelief" ( Romans 4:20), and his wife Sarah "considered him faithful who had made the promise" ( Hebrews 11:11). Abraham was justified by his faith ( Genesis 15:6), and he and his wife welcomed Isaac, the son of promise, into their home when they were 100 and 90 years old, respectively ( Genesis 21:5).

God reiterates the Abrahamic Covenant to Isaac and to his son Jacob, whose name God changes to Israel. The great nation is eventually established in the land where Abraham had dwelled. King David, one of Abraham's many descendants, is given the Davidic Covenant ( 2 Samuel 7:12-16), promising a "son of David" who would one day rule over the Jewish nation-and all nations-from Jerusalem. Many other Old Testament prophecies point to the blessed, future fulfillment of that promise (e.g., Isaiah 11; Micah 4; Zechariah 8).

See Part 4.

Abrahamic Covenant.

Part 4.

The Abrahamic Covenant also included a promise of blessing and redemption ( Genesis 12:3). All the earth would be blessed through Abraham. This promise finds its fulfillment in the New Covenant ( Jeremiah 31:31-34; cf. Luke 22:20), which was ratified by Jesus Christ, the son of Abraham and Redeemer who will one day "restore everything" ( Acts 3:21).

Five times in Genesis 12, as God is giving the Abrahamic Covenant, He says, "I will." Clearly, God takes the onus of keeping the covenant upon Himself. The covenant is unconditional. One day, Israel will repent, be forgiven, and be restored to God's favor ( Zechariah 12:10-14; Romans 11:25-27). One day, the nation of Israel will possess the entire territory promised to them. One day, the Messiah will return to set up His throne, and through His righteous rule the whole world will be blessed with an abundance of peace, pleasure, and prosperity.

There will have an article highlighting the Abrahamic Covenant.

THAT BRINGS US TO THE DAVIDIC COVENANT.

The Davidic Covenant refers to God's promises to David through Nathan the prophet and is found in 2 Samuel 7 and later summarized in 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 and 2 Chronicles 6:16. This is an unconditional covenant made between God and David through which God promises David and Israel that the Messiah (Jesus Christ) would come from the lineage of David and the tribe of Judah and would establish a kingdom that would endure forever. The Davidic Covenant is unconditional because God does not place any conditions of obedience upon its fulfillment. The surety of the promises made rests solely on God's faithfulness and does not depend at all on David or Israel's obedience.

NEXT.

See the Davidic Covenant.

The Davidic Covenant.

The Davidic Covenant centers on several key promises that are made to David. First, God reaffirms the promise of the land that He made in the first two covenants with Israel (the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants). This promise is seen in 2 Samuel 7:10, "I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore." God then promises that David's son will succeed him as king of Israel and that this son (Solomon) would build the temple. This promise is seen in 2 Samuel 7:12-13, " I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name."

But then the promise continues and expands: "I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever" (verse 13), and "Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever" (verse 16). What began as a promise that David's son Solomon would be blessed and build the temple turns into something different-the promise of an everlasting kingdom. Another Son of David would rule forever and build a lasting House. This is a reference to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, called the Son of David in Matthew 21:9.

The promise that David's "house," "kingdom," and "throne" will be established forever is significant because it shows that the Messiah will come from the lineage of David and that He will establish a kingdom from which He will reign. The covenant is summarized by the words "house," promising a dynasty in the lineage of David; "kingdom," referring to a people who are governed by a king; "throne," emphasizing the authority of the king's rule; and "forever," emphasizing the eternal and unconditional nature of this promise to David and Israel.

Davidic Covenant; Jeremiah 23:5; 30:9; Isaiah 9:7; 11:1; Luke 1:32, 69; Acts 13:34; and Revelation 3:7.

Next.

See Fulfillments.

S Spencer Gbu for posting these scriptures they are so timely and precious ....But lemme give ya my thoughts on this 2 nd Samuel 7:12....That a special child wd come out of Davids loins....Its prophetic that a special child wd come out of Christ Loins....Rev.12:10 fulfils this Promise, the manchild that is gonna rule all nations is the result of the seed of Christ...His words etc...The bible just uses David as symbolic of Christ as Peter says in Acts 2 :34....Its not David that is gonna be caught up to God and to his throne but Christ...That special Child that is gonna rule and reign for ever is the H.G. the Child of Promise...that comes out of Christ loins ( his breathe was his words (his loins)...Jesus was propagating very God the H.G. When he breathe on them...She brought forth a manchild that is gonna rule all nations and her Child was caught up to God and to his throne....This scripture Rev.12 :10 fulfills Nathans prophecy to David that a special child was gonna come out of his loins that was gonna rule and reign for ever..ty Jesus..But it was just prophetic that special Child is gonna come out of Christ LOINS...His living words are his loins which are spirit and life...Thats y he is saying whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth me....That Child is the H.G. the Child of Promise...Thats y the sower wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts...That it might result in a birth of Christ in us....The H.G. the Promise Child....Thats y God wanted a new COVENANT...One that cd address and arrest mans adamic nature making it impossible to sin...The manchild which is the H.G.is born of God in us via the seed of Jesus and cannot sin thus the law is fulfilled...cus he cannot sin...Thats what sin is the transgression of the law....But if we cannot sin then the law is fulfilled in a perfect sense..Outta of the mouths of babes and sucklings thou has perfected Praise...Thus the Child of Promise..Remember the great Promise i will multiply thy seed as th stars.

Fulfillment of Abrahamic Covenant and Davidic Covenant.

Have these Covenants been fulfilled?

Some say these were fulfilled during Jesus ministry, some say they're future.

Here's where we examine the scripture in pointing out the details described Covenants and promises.

For example, let's take one. Zechariah 8:1-23.

Fill free to examine them all and there's more.

Ask yourself have these been fulfilled, how and when?

More perhaps tomorrow.

God bless.

EXAMINING THE COVENANTS.

Part 1.

2 Samuel 7:8-10.

Today we see Israel in their land but there's no throne and there's definitely no peace.

HERE'S HOW JEREMIAH DESCRIBES THAT DAY.

Jeremiah 23:5-8.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

HERE'S ZECHARIAH.

Zechariah 8

Zachariah 8:8 Says "And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in "TRUTH AND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS."

That's not what they can claim today.

HERE'S ZECHARIAH.

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. Zechariah 8:23.

In "that day" the nation of Israel will be a vine that bares fruit.

a starch contrast to Ezekiel 36:20 and where they stand today.

Today as a nation Israel currently rejects there King.

However in Genesis 49:1 Jacob bless his sons and give them a prophetic msg for the last days.

I find Genesis 49:8-12 provocative.

This seems to mirror Revelation and a far future Kingdom with Christ on the throne.

Considering the description of the Covenants this earthly Kingdom hasn't happened yet.

God bless.

EXAMINING THE COVENANTS.

Part 2.

Obviously the "EVERLASTING" conditons described in scripture concerning the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.

Scriptures such as Isaiah 51:11 and many others don't exist of yet.

They are certainly back in the land but the wailing wall in Jerusalem reminds me of Matthew 27:25.

Also Matthew 23:38-39 seems to parallel with Hosea 5:15.

Does Israel disobedience void the UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT AND PROMISES?

According to Psalms 89:27-36. NO!



"My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, NOR SUFFER MY FAITHFULNESS TO FAIL.

( This is a marvelous saying! It's God's faithfulness that is on display!!)

MY COVENANT WILL I NOT BREAK, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me."

Daniel has much to say about this in Daniel 9:24

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

See Examining the covenants

Part 2.

God bless.

By Scripture such as Isaiah 9:7 we know Christ is going to sit on David's Throne and set up an everlasting Kingdom to establish it with judgment and with justice "FROM HENCEFORTH" even for ever as noted.

From henceforth?

This has to be from the time the kingdom starts. by the description given of the kingdom we must admit it hasn't happened yet.

This places it future.

The kingdom consists of the Nation of Israel repenting and acknowledging Christ "who they rejected"

He will sit on David's throne IN JERUSALEM according to the promises and Covenants.

IN THE MEANTIME WHAT HAS BECOME OF THE NATION ISRAEL?



I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Romans 11:8

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Romans11:11.



For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans11:25.

How do we consider these verses CONCERNING NATION ISRAEL in Romans 11 and consider the promises and Covenants and the view into the future that Daniel gives us in Daniel 9:24-27?

More to come.

God bless.

OLD TESTAMENT CONFIRMATION OF THE COVENANT

Part 1.

Abraham in Genesis 17:6 where it is recorded: "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee."

This is restated in verse 16 of the same chapter in relation to the promise of the son of Sarah: "And I will bless her, and moreover I will give thee a son of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be of her."

It is probable that there would be little question about the meaning of this covenant, if it did not involve eschatology as a whole. It would seem that the promises are simple and direct that David's posterity should continue forever and that his political kingdom would not end. However, even such a simple interpretation presents some immediate problems, as David himself seems to anticipate when he notes that the prophecy concerns a long time to come.

The principal difficulty, however, seems to be that the connotation of the Davidic covenant supports the premillennial interpretation of the Bible involving a future reign of Christ on earth as David's greater Son. This point of view is quite unacceptable to the amillenarian and therefore for them some interpretation of the Davidic covenant must be found other than that of a literal fulfillment. Generally speaking, amillenarians deny that this covenant has any decisive force on the millennial question and find its terms fulfilled in the present day with God's dealings with the church. Quite often the attempt is made to deny that anything in the Old Testament construes a premillennial eschatology and statements are made such as that of Louis Berkhof: "The only Scriptural basis for this theory [i.e., premillennialism] is Revelation 20:1-6, after an Old Testament content has been poured into it" (Systematic Theology,)

See part 2.

In brief the Amillennial view.