Bible Discussion Thread

Another comparison of two Bibles. The KJB and the Niv.

KJB ( Rev. 22:16) This verse tells us "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches, I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star". (Jesus speaking said ((I am the bright and morning star))

Niv ( Rev. 22:16) "I Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star" (The Niv even says Jesus is the bright morning star)

Now we look at ( Isaiah. 14:12) 1st the KJB "How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The Niv says "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

The first thing to notice in this verse is that they removed the word, or the name Lucifer, which is the only place its written in the Bible. Why would they do that? They change it to ((O morning star)) Remember who ( Rev. 22:16) said the morning star is? Even in their own version the morning star Is Jesus.

The Niv takes away the name Lucifer and makes this verse sound like the (morning star, Jesus Christ) was the one who had fallen from heaven and weakened the nations.

Do you see that? The Niv is full of deception!

How could this not have evil intent behind it?

( 1 Tim. 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. The word (doctrines) is #1319; it means instruction (the function or the information) learning, teaching. (Our doctrine is whatever Bible we get our instruction from, learning from, or are teaching from).

Where are these (doctrines) of devils today? It surely looks like the Niv is one of them!!

The KJB is the True Inspired Word of God!

The Truth matters!

Hi Gigi.

The old testament hope is the son of righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. Malachi 4:2.

The morning star always rises at the darkest time of the night.

It indicates that the sun will be coming up shortly.

Job 3:9. "Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:

Here in Job 38:7 it indicates there's several morning stars.

"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Isaiah 14:12 indicates Satan is just one of the many.

I believe Jesus is the Morning star for the Saints, Letting us know there's Light ahead of these dark times.

2Peter 1:19 puts it this way;

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Hopefully someone can add .

God bless.

Thank you S. Spencer

I knew that angels are called morning stars in Job.

And yes, Jesus is the ultimate "Morning Star" from whom all other beings receive the light that makes them shine forth this light.

I guess that this shining is something that is a created aspect of the beings of angels, therefore Satan did not lose this aspect of his being although light is usually associated with holiness.

We, too, will shine in the eternal state, having acquired glorified bodies like unto Jesus.

Amen Gigi.

The Jewish day begins in the evening.

In Genesis it repeatedly says

"and the morning were the first day."

Then comes the morning star and then the day.

We start our life in darkness then comes Christ,

Now we are the Children of the day.

2 Peter 1:19

Christ came into the world to light up every man but some love darkness.

John 1:4-10

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Blessings

Jimbob

To tag onto what Giannis says, Lucifer is a word derived from Latin, not from Hebrew or Greek. So "morning star" would be a correct translation.

GiGi thank you for your response. I honestly do not see how you can come to a conclusion that "morning star" would be a correct translation because the word "Lucifer" is derived from Latin GiGi. I would say the correct translation was made in 1611. God did promise us He would preserve His Words for ever in ( Ps. 12:6-7) As we look at ( Isa. 14:12) in the KJB it has said "Lucifer" for over 400 years which causes no confusion, but it does tell us the Truth which is (Lucifer fell from heaven)! Now we have many modern versions who replace the Words of the LORD with words that create confusion. As I have posted many times in the past we see in ( Jer. 23:36) The word (perverted) is # 2015; it means to change. Every Word of God is pure (Pro. 30:5-6)

All modern version Bibles have changed their Words, some even changed their words again after they have already changed their words. (There is probably 40 or 50 or more different modern version Bibles) How is that anything other than confusion? ( 1 Cor. 1:10) Please read ( 1 Cor. 1:10) again. How can that verse be possible if many people read from many different Bibles that have changed their words and all say something different? That is not possible.

If we Believe in God, then we should Believe His Words, Every Word of God is the Truth and He did preserve His Word forever? As in (Ps.12:6-7). We may continue to disagree here GiGi.

But I do Thank you for responding GiGi. God Bless you.

Good Evening Jimbob,

I appreciate your reply to me on this topic As I can see that we will not come to a common place of agreement on this particular topic, I don't wish to continue to respond out of respect for you and for myself. I am not offended, I just cannot see this conversation being edifying or fruitful. I do think that "morning star" (or similar) aligns very closely with the Greek used, as Giannis has shared. Lucifer was never a part of the original texts.

Have an blessed night. I am sure we will converse on other topics soon.

Hello Jimbob

I don't know what the name Lucifer means in Hebrew but in greek (Eosphoros) means morning star. That name was used by the ancient people for the planet Venus which is the first star to appear in the sky in the morning. It is also used in the Bible for devil which shows the glory he had before revolting against God and eventually becoming a demon.

GBU

Giannis,

Thank you for sharing about the name Lucifer.

I am wondering now what the Greek would say of Jesus in Rev. 22:16 as the "bright an morning star".

Hello GiGi

Just for information.

You are right "Lucifer" comes from Latin. The greek is "Eosphoros", also "Phoshoros". The Engl. word "Phosphorus" which is a chemical element which shines comes from this word. ts precise meaning is something or someone that brings light, although the former is used nowadays in grk only for the devil and the latter only for that chemical element. In ancient times that name was given to a star that was very bright during the first few hours at down. Today we know that that star is planet Venus which is the brightest star in the sky after the sun.

That name also appears in the Septuagint as "Eosphoros who you rise in the morning" instead of "Lucifer son of the morning" in the Masoretic ( Isaiah 14:12).

Another time that that name appears in the Bible, as Phosphoros, is in Peter 2:19, (KJB) "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:". In the grk text the phrase "day star" is written as "Phosphoros". Hence it is reffered to Jesus Christ.

Also in Rev 22:16 the KJB has translated the grk precisely.. It also is refered to Jesus Christ.

I believe in the Book of Isaiah Lucifer is called the morning star because before becoming satan he was a bright Herub, see also Ezekiel 28:11-19. That scripture was for the King of Tyrus but it is widely accepted that it is attributed to devi.

Also Spencer says something right, that all angels are called "morning stars', J( ob 38:7), so satan was one of them probably the most powerful before revolting against God as that scripture in Ezekiel 28:14 indicates. But enough with devil, I think...

GBU

Thank you Giannis

Your explanation clarifies things well.

Giannis thank you for your comment. I don't quite understand what you mean, If you wouldn't mind could you please provide more information regarding your last sentence? Thank you again. Blessings.

hello Jimbob

The devil was once a bright Herub, probably the most powerful angel among all of them. second in place after God. But he revolted against God and tried to take His place in Heaven. And so God made him a devil. The scripture in Ezekiel 28:11-19 gives an account of what had happened. The scripture is refered to the King of Tyrus but it is widely accepted that it refers to satan. GBU

Giannis thank you for that explanation, I really do appreciate all the responses on this post. But everyone seems to have gotten away from the main point of the post. Who is fallen from heaven? Lucifer is! In ( Luke. 10:18) Jesus says He beheld Satan as lightening fall from heaven. That was definitely Satan, or Lucifer who was falling from heaven. ( Isaiah. 14:12-15) in the KJB v12 Tells us that it was Lucifer.

Why would the Niv Bible take away the name (Lucifer) and replace it with the name Jesus clearly applied to Himself in ( Rev. 22:16)? the bright and morning star. In ( 2 Tim. 3:16) It tells us (All scripture is given by inspiration of God)

Do you think the Inspired Word of God would remove the name Lucifer and replace it with O morning star? Which completely takes away the ((FACT)) ((proving that it was Lucifer)) or Satan, and not Jesus Christ who had fallen from heaven? People who only use the Niv Bible could be really mislead or deceived by such a change, wouldn't you say that's a true statement Giannis? ( 1 Cor. 14:33) Tells us "God is not the author of confusion". The word (confusion) is #181; it means instablity, disorder, tumult, inconstant, unstable. Couldn't that change in the Niv cause much confusion? For 400 or so years the KJB said the same thing in this verse, (Lucifer) Thats stability, its order, constant, and stable. It is the Inspired Word of God. All the changes in the modern versions make it confusion.

The Niv says pretty much the same thing as the KJB in ( Rev. 22:16) yet they completely change ( Isa. 14:12) which is causing much confusion for new readers. Also ( 1 Cor. 1:10) Says we should all speak the same thing, and there be no divisions among you, and that we be ((perfectly joined together in the same mind)) and in the same judgment.

Is that possible with all the modern version Bibles that are all saying something different? I say no it is not possible, But it is causing much confusion!

Again thank you Giannis. God Bless you.

Hello Jimbob

I don't think we should spend any more time talking about the devil, Lucifer. Just as a final comment to close this discussion, Lucifer was the name given by Romans to the brightest star that is seen in the sky at dawn. It's exact meaning is "light bringer". So that star for ancient people indicated the begining of the day. So it was the morning star. Through Latin that word entered the English language. And whereas in English it doesn't mean anything, it is just a name, in Latin though it means "morning star". So some Bibles either use the name lucifer and other the name morning star, both names are right. In Isaiah God does a comparison between the former state of devil as an angel of light, a morning star, that he was before revolting against God and his latter state when he became a dark devil. That it is all about. So don't be embarrassed about the name.

Now about the NIV Bible, I also noticed that sometimes it omits words or phrases. I have done a research on the internet and I found out that the NIV relies on the so called "critical editions" of the Bible. The KJB uses the so called "Reiceived Text". I haven't checked if the NIV is an exact translation of the critical edition, so I don't really know about it's validity. I think one can check those things. On the net there is much information for and against that translation, so one can decide for themselves. I am not the proper person to do that since I mainly use the Greek Bible. The greek Bibles almost always use the Received Text or the so called Patriarcal text that the Greek Orthodox church accepts as right. It is almost indentical to the Received text.

About translations, it is not bad that there are adapted to the speaking language of people of any time. As long as they don't depart from the initial meaning of the text, there is no problem. But we can always check that and so we can select the right translations to read from. Actually not all of them are good. GBU

Giannis thank you for your response. This post was started as a comparison of the KJB and the Niv. I was only showing the deception and confusion the Niv causes by removing the word "Lucifer" from that verse. The point is the True Word of God is the KJB. I'm not sure what you mean about being embarrassed about the name lucifer?

I would say all modern versions are not good today Giannis.

I allow the Words in the Bible to be my guide to everything I understand. Examples: ( Ps. 12:6-7) v6 Tells me the Words of the LORD are pure Words. v7 Tells me they are ((preserved forever)). ( Ps. 119:89) Also says "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven". ( Ps. 119:140) "Thy word is very pure". ( Ps. 119:160) "Thy word is true from the beginning". ( Isa. 40:8) Tells me "the word of our God shall stand for ever". In ( Mt. 4:4) Tells us "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by (every word) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God". ( Luke. 4:4) Also.

( Jn. 1:1-3,14) God was the Word and He was made flesh and dwelleth among us. Should we think that every word Jesus spoke was not important enough for those words to be written down, or documented exactly as He wanted them? (preserved for ever).

(2 Tim.4:3-4) Tells me there is a doctrine today that's not sound doctrine. (Where is it, or what could that doctrine be?)

( Proverbs. 30:5-6) v5 "Every word of God is pure" v6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar". (Here we are told to not add to His pure Words) If we are not to add to His pure Words then we have to have His pure Words somewhere today right?

I'm not sure how the comments got focused on Lucifer, that was surely not my intent. The pure Words of the LORD that He promised to preserve for ever is the KJB. If we allow the Word of God to interpret itself then this is clearly the truth.

( Jer. 23:36) the word (perverted) means to change. All modern versions change the Words of the living God.

Again thank you Giannis. God Bless you.

[Comment Removed]

Dear Giannis again,

From my research, the NIV and other versions that have been translated from documents recently discovered that were not found and available to the KJV translators. These newly discovered texts date to a much earlier time than the Received Text.

It is not that these versions omitted original texts. It is that these verses were not found in the newly discovered much older texts they used to translate for these version that came out after the KJV. These supposed "omitted" verses were found in the received text which dates around 1300-1500 A.D. being received from the translations of Erasmus, a Catholic priest who created the Received Text. But these verses did not appear in the many earlier manuscripts, so the translators of the NIV and NASB and others did not include them because they wanted to stay as true to the earlier texts as possible.

GiGi Please don't let this offend you but it sounds like you are meaning in your comment to Giannis that the translation of the Word of God was done only by men. I think God was in complete control of who the translators were, and what they translated from to keep His Words pure, and even how long it took them to translate it. ( 2 Pet. 1:19-21) and ( Ps. 12:6-7) All scripture is given by inspiration of God ( 2 Tim. 3:16) I don't think that means all scripture from 50 different versions that all say something different, that would be complete confusion. Thats what that many versions are, confusion. If Gods Words are pure Words then how could some modern versions be good and some modern versions be bad? God is not the author of confusion. God breathed means His Words are pure Words that are inspired and preserved forever, and they are sound doctrine. ( Rev. 20:22) Tells us the dead are judged out of those things which were written in the books. ( Jn. 12:48) Tells us Jesus said "the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day". The Word of God, the Words that Jesus Christ had spoken, the inspired Word of God, the pure, preserved Words of the LORD will be the books that judge the dead in the last day. That will be the KJB, all 66 books will be opened for the dead to be judged. (The word that Jesus had spoken in ( Jn. 12:48) is the same that will judge them from (the books) that will be opened in the last day).

All modern versions have changed His pure Words as we are told in ( Jer. 23:36) Again the word (perverted) means to change.

So this verse tells us that they changed the words of the living God.

Reply only if you want to GiGi, I truly do not mean to offend nor do I seek to argue. God Bless you.

[Comment Removed]

Good Morning Jimbob,

I understand where you are coming from. It seems that we have spoken to this subject enough. Let's just move on to other topics.

Hello Giannis,

My understanding is that the NIV is a thought for thought translation (called dynamic equivalent). The NIV took the Greek text and translated the verse to express the entire thought of the verse.

The NASB, ESV, KJV, NKJV and a newly released one LSV is a word for word translation (called formal equivalent).

Other Bibles are paraphrases such as the Living Bible, the Message, Good News Bible.

Hope this helps. It is easy for one to find this info on the internet by entering "Types of Bible Translations".

Dear Jimbo, many times I have thought like you when I have read this, and see this! Now I know according to your writing here that there can't be two morning stars!

The truth must be revealed no matter what others claim.

We understand piecemeal and divided. Take care of you. Love you in Christ.

Free thank you for your comment. Yes I do agree the truth must be revealed, all these modern version Bibles are not Inspired by God. Truth should be more important than stubbornness or pride. God Bless you Free.