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Yes, I believe we can, if we have Faith in God, and Believe in His words, and we live in His Spirit, Jesus tells us all things are Possible. Matthew 17:201 John 3:5-9 and 2 Corinthians 5:17
Just like the scripture above, we would like to believe it, but we have doubt, and so our unbelief continues to provide Satan the opportunity to sow doubt, and we give him a resting place in our mind, and the ongoing ability to continue to control our mind.
Today, all we hear is a loud and deafening drumbeat from Christians telling other Christians - we can never stop sinning, reinforcing sin contrary to what Jesus tells us what he expects from us. John 8:11 and John 5:14
"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."
Today God gives us the same choice that he gave Adam and Eve. Gen 2:16-17 But we continue to eat from the wrong tree.
To everyone that has been following this conversation
In Chris last point, he has a solid reasoning concerning the Scriptures that we now possess.
Yet, none of the translations are 100% accurate, one says the meaning is this, & another says no, its this.
Ephesians 4:5; & He's the John 1;1; is Christ divided? Look back in history & take note how much blood was shed because of this division of the Word. Is this not turning Christ words against His works. The Lord is One.
Reading over the whole of our conversation, the intent I purpose to reveal was not the discrediting of the Scriptures, but that they are spiritually discerned. That man un-regenerated heart Jeremiah 17:9, would shun the cross & choose another method than ordain of God to know him. & lets keep in mind that the Scriptures are only 2Timothy 3:16; the Strong's Complete Exhausted Concordance, etc; is not! Though ever so skillfully endeavored. Man has turn this note worthy endeavor into a replacement of Him. The promise is that God will teach His people Himself, Isa 54:13; the results; we come to know Him, a personal intimate fellowship; 1John 1:1-3; This has been God's heart desire from the beginning & only by coming in the Way that He has provided will make this a reality, along with all His other promises. We must look to His Spirit John 16:13, Zechariah 4:6;
First off; we have verses such as 1 John 1:8-10 which makes it pretty clear that none of us are without sin. That would be in reference to the old man and body which still have the capability or potential of sin; much like Adam did before he fell in Eden.
We need to differentiate between the inner man; or our hearts and our actions; which express what is going on within us. It is much like a disease which may be present before anyone can diagnose it. The act of sin is a process that starts with allowing our minds to consider something ungodly; and as believers that often is associated with thoughts from Satan or his minions influencing us (such as in Matthew 16:23). In that case we see how what would seem like the best humanitarian approach to a close friend protecting another was against God's greater purposes; which may in Peter's logic have seemed like righteous indignation. Instead; it betrayed his own blindness toward what Christ had repeatedly predicted and was being ignorant of what the Spirit had recently revealed to him about Christ being Lord and Savior. Weaknesses can therefore be either used for God's glory ( 2 Corinthians 12:10) as stated by Paul; or something that can be a repeated snare; as seen by Peter's boasting that he would even die for Christ ( John 13:37). This illustrates once again how we must never lean to our own understanding or strength in boasting.
Sanctification therefore continually transforms us as we mature in the faith. We are operating in forgiveness for all sins; past present and future IF truly saved. That is crucial for when we do sin we must ask forgiveness ( 1 John 2;1-2); and be restored; reclaiming our blood bought standing. If there is a lifestyle of sin which would mean deliberate repeated actions without any remorse it is evidence that there is no contention between the Spirit and flesh ( Gal. 5:17) and salvation can be questioned. Restoration is only possible if we are truly children of God.
1Jn 1:8-10 explains the operations of John 16:8; & the exercises of Hebrews 5:13;14; when He convicts of sin or of righteousness, He bring these two seeds of thought within into judgment. The still small Voice of conscience that reproves us of sinful thoughts, words or actions, this is Grace Titus 2:11 / Light John 1:9 Christ spiritual appearance within our hearts, Ephesians 5:13; to 1 John 3:8; if rejected, His word has no place within us, & we call Him a liar & why? John 3:19,20; Rom 1:18,19; rejecting Him, we suppress the Truth in unrighteousness. Therefore we don't John 1:12; but if we receive His convictions, we received the power that comes with the conviction to become the sons of God, for the 1Cor 12:7; More insight of the Spirit operations within conscience, Rom 2:15;
So there's a time when Holy Spirit comes to us as sinners, for Rom 3:23 & a time ( if we received His words ) repentance is granted & we're cleanse from all sin. 1 John 1:9; Titus 2:14; 2Cor 7:1; by the 1 Pet 1:23; = Light, becoming Matt 5:48; 1 Pet 1:15,16; for they that are 1Cor 6:17 & in Him 1 John 3:5; All by the working of Grace / Light / Spirit appearance within conscience.
No Frankie , to do that would be impossible for any of us while we are in this body of flesh . Christ received the Spirit of God without measure , God dwelt in Christ fully . We do not have that privileged , we have the Comforter to guide and teach us but we are not 100per cent full of God's Holy Spirit . We are flesh and full of the lusts of it and we are selfish and cold hearted in comparison to Jesus who was totally unselfish and soft hearted . We may think we are nice and kind and sinless but we are a million miles from that sort of perfection , only our own pride and delusions would allow us to think otherwise .
Hello Frankie J. Both S. Spencer & GiGi have shared very well to your question, so won't add to what was given. But I wanted to query your actual question: "Can we reach a state of perfection in our lifes on earth , where we actually sin no more?" I couldn't gather from your question whether you believed that you had reached that 'perfect state of sinlessness', or you were enquiring to how or when it can be attained while we remain on Earth.
Your question took me back to over two years ago, when an enquirer on this Site stated that since the time of his re-birth, he had never committed any sin; and he also referenced similar passages to what you've given as to the re-birth by the Holy Spirit Who ensures that no sin can ever be committed. So this discussion between us went on for a little while, until it occurred to me, 'how does this brother define sin; was it the breaking of the Ten Commandments & any other overt sin that may not be mentioned in the Bible?'
He stated, he just doesn't sin. I then gave an example of a sin that I had recently committed. While waiting at the traffic red light, I noticed a car driving through his red light, fortunately just avoiding an accident. My immediate thought & response was not good at all. My heart tightened, my thoughts were not the best, I felt anger & upset as to that driver's carelessness & a possible major accident. The Holy Spirit immediately arrested me & showed me my sin even though I may have justified it. I shared this account with that brother & asked if he ever felt something similar in his heart, giving outward expression. I never heard from him again. So, I'm always interested in any person who believes that they have or have reached a state of sinless perfection, whether their assessment is based on the sins the Bible reveals or on all those other sins hidden from view of others. To my understanding, I've yet to meet anyone that can truly say he is sinless.
..... Eph 6:12; 2 Cor 10:3,4,5; Matt 15:18; Matt 12:34 both seeds or kingdoms are within.
Paul gives us an insight of his growth in grace in 1Cor 9:27; he considers himself capable to falling, he kept his body under, then in Rom 8:35-39; he had reach a level of the stature an fullness of Christ that nothing could separate Him from the love of Christ Jesus his Lord. Sin separates, as Eden experience tell us & our own experiences bares witness to us.
Chris; you've accurately describe in your own experience His Grace/Light spiritual appearance within your heart, following Him in this manner will Titus 2: 14; Eze 36:25; the washing of the water of the Word; the incorruptible Seed; becoming holy, blameless unreproachable in His sight, that we may experience 2 Cor 6:16; Gal 2:20; Luke 6:40; Jn 17: 21-24
The veil of the flesh is taken away by Christ, that the intimacy, oneness with Him in Spirit may be known & felt in our hearts here on earth.
Thanks Frankie J. Just going through your comments, with my understanding from the Scriptures.
a. 'You are in State 1, as in Eden before the fall' - I assume slowly progressing to attain the fullness of that state. The only problem with this is that you & I have a sin nature inherited from Adam & Eve, whereas before the fall Adam & Eve had no sin - they were pure. Romans 5:12-14. If we could ever reach that state before death, i.e. of total purity as A & E, there would be no need to die physically as sin would no longer be in our members & the sin nature once given without choice, would be eradicated. But death will come to all of us proving we are still sinners, and should the Lord tarry, our dying will prove without doubt that our inherited sin nature demands the death penalty ( Romans 6:23). For this Christ came, that we might be resurrected into new & eternal life because of His forgiveness of our sins thus giving us clear consciences before God.
b. Paul never ever reached full purity or sinlessness ( Romans 7:14-25) - he would have yearned for it but he knew that while in this body that desire to be exactly like his Savior would be impossible. And his exclamation: "O wretched man that I am", was his constant sense of failure before an Holy God, but he kept his body in subjection & his eyes fixed on Jesus, aiming for the prize ( Philippians 3:12-14).
c. I agree, 'being tempted is not a sin', even as Christ was tempted. But Jesus never gave in to it even to the agony of the Cross. Could we ever say the same for us sinners, destined for hell, but saved only by the Grace of God? The Work of the Spirit is constant & should be a witness inwardly & outwardly as we mature in faith & love - but our perfection will only come beyond the grave when our sin nature will be gone & "we will be like Him", both physically & when the flesh will be cleansed from all evil. Blessings.
Yes, its been a slow progression of learning the Cross, denying self, & dying daily. 2Cor 4:11. I've come to know in personal experience the spiritual warfare of Jeremiah 17:9, & the childhood Hebs 12:11; separating me from my servanthood of sin. I've been so dull of hearing & slow of heart to believe all that Holy Spirit ever spoke to me. God has been very gracious & His longsuffering love extended exceedingly toward me, blessing & honor to Him alone of what He has accomplish thus far within me. You see, like you I had a very similar experience with God in 82, reading your testimony, I said to myself, he had the same spiritual encounter with God that I had, with the same response. & I wondered; whether it was to the same purpose, for at that moment in life, I was in such deep & gross darkness, that if God hadn't intervene, I would have never made out of my twenties alive, Selah.
Gen 2:17; Rom 5:12-14;
The death spoken of here is a spiritual death separating them / us from partaking of the life of God, the fellowship with Him, the cause disobedience & effect spiritual death. For truly they died spiritually that moment they transgress God commandment, & their eyes were open to the carnal part of their creation, & they loss in spirit the spiritual consciousness of the spiritual part, that image they were created in. Now it was just a memory of past experiences, instead of an abiding habitation with God in Spirit. The must of the new birth; Jn 3:3,5,6,7; that we may again partake of Him, Ephesian 2:22; 1Jn 1,2,3; this speaks of His spiritual appearances within our heart, for he states in verse 1Jn 1:5 God is Light in the face of Jesus Christ 2Cor 4:6 ..
..The salvation that Jesus offers is redemption from the sinful nature that resulted from the fall of Adam; Hebs 10:22 denotes cleansing of our conscience & bodies too! How can we draw near to Him as stated here if not possess here? its confirm by Rom 12:1; 1 Timothy 3:9 Paul had; Hebs 9:14 the dead works are our transgressions. It appears to me that all who reply to my original question, thinks that the body in & of itself is evil, when it's just a tabernacle, a vessel animated by the spirit & souls. Become born again by His Spirit & transformed by the renewing of our minds, meaning Philippians 2:5; 1 Cor 2:16 & everyone that has this hope, 1Jn 3:3 becomes a certainty, by the operations of the Grace of God, 1 Cor 12:7
Rom 6:23 refer to being spiritually dead, as the whole of Rom 6 speaks of being dead unto sin & alive unto Christ. Your implying that all the writers of the Scriptures are hypocrites, pretending to be something their not, Scriptures declares otherwise 2 Pet 1:21 Do you really believe Holy Spirit would contradict Himself from commanding us to "sin not" God forbid, sin shall not have dominion over you, then in chapter 7, to continue in sin? This is not 2 Tim 2:15;
Paul here is relating his struggles in the operations of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, he comes to the end of his rope of self efforts in which he walk in under the law, "blameless"! & now is learning the spiritual warfare of Ephesians 6:12; 2Cor 10:3-6, for mankind was overcome spiritually & must be redeem spiritually. He receive the revelation of the righteousness that is by faith, Rom 7:24; The Light; 2 Cor 4:6,7: The Word, Rom 10:8; The Law, Rom 8:2; The Spirit, Rom 8:11-13, John 16:13; & is not a lie. 1 John 2:27
The great work of regeneration & renewing, picking up the Cross, the Power of God unto salvation, the dying daily, Gal 2:20; Paul knew John 8:32;. You quoted Philippians 3:12 read further :15 the word for mature is also translated "perfect" in the NKJV. (& by the way, I DON'T advocate anyone to the studying of the letter by natural arts of Hebrew/Greek etc; the different language begin at Babel, meaning confusion, & that's just what has happen, there' over 45,000 different sect's of Christianity worldwide, each proclaiming "here is Christ," When Christianity was first birth & brought forth by His Spirit, Act 4:32; Ephesians 4:5; is that the case today? Its more like Judges 21:25; God's words are Spirit & is only understood & possess by the Spirit which gave them forth. 2Cor 2:11,12; Gal 3:2 the Spirit is received by faith, which comes by hearing the Word of God in our heart, not the letter, for the letter kills, the Spirit alone gives us the very life of God, to be manifested in our mortal bodies, to the destroying ALL, ALL, ALL the works of the devil & conform us to Christ, Rom 8:39; Luke 6:40; The letter cannot do this, Scripture plainly points & instructs us in this, "he that hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit has to say.) Sanctification "making holy" is on this side of the grave, the work of Titus 2:11,12 & its includes the whole man, spirit, soul & body. Titus 2:14 cleansing us from ALL iniquity, that we may Col 1:22. The faith y'all are promoting is 2 Timothy 3:5; Gal 5:8,9
The angel proclaimed Matt 1:21; His Name declares His works "He shall saved them from their sins, not in their sins"
There's much more that could be brought forth here; Rom 6 -8
The Spirit prayer in Ephesians 1:17-21 "not only in this world, but that which is to come" Thy Kingdom come, here on earth as it is in heaven.
hope all will seriously consider & weigh these words. 2 Cor 3:5,6
Thank you again Frankie J for the lengthy comment - I shall pick up on the 'important' matters.
Romans 5:12-14. I certainly agree that spiritual death is seen in these verses, but also that as a result of sin's entrance into A & E & then into humanity, physical death was also the outcome. If this wasn't the case, would you say that A & E would have experienced physical death anyway if they remained without sin? I liken this to what our state will be in the Millennial Rule of Christ & beyond, where sin is finally vanquished & physical death will be no more. Both spiritual death & physical death are results of sin & the human corruption. Absolute purity of life, without any stain of sin can only be attained after we leave behind these bodies of sin.
I certainly don't "imply that the writers of the Scriptures are hypocrites". Rather, they speak of the new birth, the new revived spirit in man & what this means & how we ought to live. Even in Romans 6 as you quoted, where the apostle writes of 'death to sin, crucifixion of the old man, & being freed from sin', can he or anyone who received his message ever claim that sin was now eradicated from every part of their being? Rather, the message has always been not to let sin have dominion over them. What is this? Sinlessness, or through their new birth & abiding Holy Spirit, they should never be servants to sin but to righteousness. Here we have the new God-given life, in mortal sin-affected bodies, determined now by the Spirit's Work, to live for God & doing His Will & not be servants to sinful passions. Has sin left them or ever will leave them? Never. But they can have victory over it & so the great need for that blessed spiritual armor to deal with Satan's onslaughts & not live in defeat. We might now live unto God, but sin will always be at our door & we will always fail simply because the sin nature is still active revealing itself even in the most insignificant of sins; because we know that sin is sin.
I would agree with all except, for the last sentence, beginning with "Absolute Purity". Luke 6:40; 1John 4:17; Rom 12:1; the plain write of the words used denotes we're still living in this world.
Hypocrites; I don't believe you intentionally imply this, yet the results of your statement implying this. They did not speak of the new birth, but from the new birth, 2Cor 5:17; Ezekiel 36:25,26,27; heart of flesh; denotes our life now in the flesh. Eph 4:24; you put Him on, here; Col 3:10; The apostles lived, enjoy & possessed what they preached; Philippians 3:15,16; Again, what God required of us is to live according to the measure of the Truth that He has revealed, the apostles received Acts 1:8' Eph 1:19; Eph 3:20; Col 1:29; to do so.
You stated "has sin left them or ever leave them: Never, but they can have victory over sin; this is an oxymoron. Being born again of His Spirit alias; Matt 3:11-12; the threshing floor of the heart is thoroughly purge of the chaff. (sin nature), the spiritual old man of sin, the Adamic nature that animates the flesh. He's deny, mortify & final crucify, he's dead & self is seen no more. All by the Grace appearance within our hearts.
Friend,,,,your covering yourself, but not with the Spirit of the Lord, but with; Gen 3:7;
Your the understanding is veiled, for only the spirit of darkness would plead for sin to remain within one, after all that God has wrought & revealed to us through His Son. For he (Satan) knows that despite one's profession, though maybe ever so high or lofty, & profess with elegant words, it what one does that defines him, Rom 6:16; John 8:34; Rom 2:6;
Hebrews 9:11,12,13,14,15; do you hear what the Spirit is saying here? The flesh purified, OT, now in NT even our conscience cleanse, the heart. Eternal inheritance Roman 8:17; 2 Pet 1:4; John 17:21-23;
Hi Frankie J. Getting to the fundamentals here: you quoted Luke 6:40 (the Greek is 'karkatizo', meaning 'made complete, prepared'). The context is not about being pure or perfectly free from sin "as his master", but the 'one who is fully trained or fully prepared for the work, can be the master/teacher'.
1 John 4:17: "Herein is our love made perfect" (Gk: teleioo = to be made complete); i.e. 'he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him' (v16): true love is made complete when we are truly abiding in God.
Romans 12:1: "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God". (Gk: hagios (holy): set apart for God, sacred). That is how we come before God presenting ourselves: holy by position - holy by purification. The apostle's earnest plea is that we come with clean hands & pure hearts. Sinless? Can never be - our sin nature is still with us, but we can come with all sin confessed & clear pure consciences.
To the rest of your comment with supporting Scriptures, it appears again that you equate the new life in Christ as being freed from sin. It is true that we have been cleansed & our spirits have been made new & in that sense absolutely perfect. But we still live in bodies of flesh, sin & corruption. If the new birth dealt with that matter of perfecting our bodies (the flesh), I would fully agree with you, but the Bible never teaches that & experience always shows that the spiritual battle over sin can never end but rages every moment of the day, some succumb to it, others find victory. But in the end, confession & correction restores fellowship & cleansing of the heart & conscience - it never makes one sinless. If you find disagreement here, then maybe you can outline what you consider as sin - for this point may well be where our misunderstanding lies. GBU.
Chris, tell me, the experience you spoke of in your car, did you pull out your Strong's concordance for understanding, to correct your thoughts or for that matter to make you aware them? Or, was it the Light of God Spirit within you, that admonish you? Ephesians 5:13;
New life equated; being free from sin, not just in & of itself, but the best part, being partakers of the Divine Nature, union with John 17:21,22,23; Jesus came to show us the image & likeness that God created man in, Matt 11:29; Gal 5:22-24; this is the true dignity & glory of our creation, & how he took dominion over the earth. Mark 6:48,49; Mark 4:39-41; Matt 17:27; etc; fulfilling Gen 1:26 & will ultimately fulfill it through His body, the church, here on earth as it is in heaven.
I have not stated; as you're implying the perfecting of the body, physically, it still remains under the penalty of sin consequences. Yet can be pure & holy, being animated by the new birth & renewing of the mind by His Spirit; John 3:3-6; 1Thess 5:23,24; "wholly", not of position only, but possession.
I mention; I Didn't advocate studying the Scriptures by carnal means, by the arts of natural science as you would for a vocation.
Doing this feeds the natural part in man, with a knowledge apart from the Life of God, nor can such knowledge give us the life of God, for how can it? The flaming swords which guards the Tree of Life only gives way to those who are led by the Spirit. 2Cor 3:6; The letter in any dispensation kills, giving him a form of godliness without the power to be truly godly. It a false form, promotes self righteousness, one doesn't come to 1John 1:1 in a personal encounter with the living God in Spirit, who would lead him to take up the cross, teach him to deny, mortify & crucify spiritual old man of sin, by the operation of the Spirit to the rebirth & renewing of the mind. Instead; it offers a fake cross that flesh carnal mind can easily carry & bare It doesn't separates him from 1John 2:16, but leaves him one in it. It takes away our dependence from God, Psalms 123:2; that God maybe all in all, for He alone is the blessedness of the creature.
I'm speaking not from hearsay, but from 27 yrs of personal experience, than in 2010 while in ministry school, God extended His outstretch Arm, encountering me again & slowly began opening the eyes of my heart, as I was able to bear it, to what I've been speaking of here, leading me to quit school & Luke 9:23
OT promises, Isa 54:13Jeremiah 31:33-34; confirmed in NT, Hebrews 8: 10,11,12; why is it that God doesn't remember their sins? Because He has cleanse them of all unrighteousness & has endue them with His Spirit & they sin no more. Jeremiah 32:39-41; The cause & effect of God teaching us Himself, & that by His Spirit John 14:13,14,15; with all His Heart & all His Soul; says the LORD, Selah.
Consider; it was not until the 14th or 15th century that these things became widely available, & then it was only to the learned & privilege. The Apostasy that the Apostles spoke of was already at work in their day & came into full maturity with the Roman Catholic's Rev17:2 for then the world was Rome. Daniel 2:40
Who taught Moses, etc; even Jesus John 7:15; the disciples etc; one educated, Paul & he Philippians 3:7,8,9,10; he relied on Philippians 1:19; What about all the people in time that didn't get a chance to learn how to read or were in the remote regions of the earth were the Scriptures were unavailable? Or hear the Good New being preach in the power of the Holy Ghost? His words are, "from the least to the greatest". His Spirit is able to reach them to the uttermost, even the blind, deaf, dumb-mentally, etc; Jeremiah 32:27;
Chris, everyone; consider these things. God is just, He's not going to condemn someone for something they did not know. Rom 1:17, which comes by Rom 10:17; which is in Rom 10:8; continue Rom 1:19; & that by His 1Cor 2:10; He's that Light that admonish you in the car, follow Him & He will lead ALL that do to the Father. He's the Treasure 2Cor 4:7 that's opens our understanding to the knowledge & the glory of God, it's the face of Jesus Christ.
Even in Jeremiah 31:33,34, God hasn't cleansed them yet & "remembered their sin no more". That is still future Israel turns to the Lord & the sins of the past are indeed forgiven & forgotten, as He graciously deals with us today.
For the greater part of your pages 2 & 3, I'm unsure why you presented that with what we're discussing, so unsure how to deal with it. Was it primarily about considering what the original languages & their meanings/applications are to the Scriptures? That is, going deep into the Word or hearing from the Spirit?
And yes, Romans 14:23 is a great definition of what sin is, which of course would need examination to learn how the working of one's faith in relation to sin brings about either victory or defeat. And I would add, it is both the working of faith & of the Spirit that the believer engages with when confronted with sin; without the Spirit's Power defeat is certain. GBU
"you don't know why I would bring up this matter, as it pertains to our discussion. When in Truth, it reaches to the very heart of it.
Going to the letter, in Hebrew or Greek etc; as you quoted & spoke from, comes from the traditions & teaching of man, the wisdom that's from below, earthy, which makes Mark 7:13, which sprang up in the Apostasy. Isa 55:8,9;
Whereas coming to the Spirit, our Teacher; The Word Rom 10:8; that comes Rom 10:17; within us, produces the fruit, the Word intended Isa 55;11; Isa 14:27;
Bringing this part of the conversation to a conclusion, by giving "the cause & effect of the learning from the letter, verses being taught by God Himself.
1Cor 2:10 which is freely & lavishly given unto us in Christ. Col 2:2,3; Proverbs 8:14;
You said; you don't subscribe to this type of application of sanctification ; citing verses with the word meaning; its plain to me that your faith is coming from books, & not our Teacher; who is Hebrews 12:2. Your trying to understand spiritual things by carnal means, Thus this faith you have is 2Timothy 3:7 Meaning; it will never bring one to the experiential knowledge of God; in Spirit & in Truth. Matt 11:27; For God is a Spirit & only by His Spirit is He manifested & known.
Jeremiah 31:33,34; New Covenant, he's prophesying, not that he partook of it, 1Peter 1:10; & yet he was cleansed & holy under the gospel of his dispensation 2 Peter 1:21; as many were Luke 1:5,6;
Again; what God requires of us, is to walk upright in the knowledge that He has given us.
Thank you for your kind apology, no offense taken, just a misunderstanding. Believe me, in this slow progressive work of sanctification, I've have had many misunderstanding & faltering, receiving His reproofs & admonishments, I've learnt Daniel 4:37; I love the way He gets to me. He always "hit the nail on the head" so to speak,& why? Daniel 2:22, Psalms 36:9;
you have experience Him in Spirit, Chris (in the car)
Well Frankie J, I really don't know how else to approach & respond to your comments when referring to the original languages. You clearly have another view of that aspect of hermeneutics, considering the Bible you now hold in your hands is the result of many months of intricate persistent work by the translators who examined the manuscripts in their possession & sought to correctly translate them into English for us. If this means their work would also come "from the traditions & teaching of man, the wisdom that's from below, earthy...", then what else could I write, for the plain facts stare me in the face. I think that our conversation must end here with such a belief you've shared. Blessings.
Thank you Frankie J. You wrote: "I have not stated; as you're implying the perfecting of the body, physically, it still remains under
the penalty of sin consequences." Actually, I always go back to the original post or question, i.e. "Can we reach a state of perfection in our lifes on earth , where we actually sin no more?"
I apologize, I understood that your original question did imply (or at least seeking) answers to that question of reaching perfection in our earthly lives. And from our discussions, I gathered that you did in fact believe that it is possible to do so; so sensed that you might be at or near that blessed state. Whereas the basis of these discussions between us is that my belief is that we will never reach that state in this life: our spirits might be renewed & made pure, but we still live in corrupt flesh & thus sin ever waits to manifest itself & it does so.
Yet, your statement continued: "Yet (the body?) can be pure & holy, being animated by the new birth & renewing of the mind by His Spirit; John 3:3-6; 1Thess 5:23,24; "wholly", not of position only, but possession." This is the point of our difference. As you wrote: "wholly, not of position only, but possession". Yes, we are 'sanctified wholly', but I'm afraid that what it boils down to is that your understanding of sanctification or wherever 'perfection, complete', etc. are used, you take it as being perfectly pure/clean now. And I think you will remember from my previous comment, that I don't subscribe to this type of application; even citing examples from 1 John 4:17 & Romans 12:1. So I think we need to leave that matter there, as we simply cannot reconcile those (& other) verses to what we believe.
Romans 7. You stated, "Paul here is relating his struggles in the operations of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience". If this is as you say, then it certainly implies that sanctification can only be realized when the sins of the flesh are dealt with. When sin is removed completely, then sanctification is complete. See his agony in Romans 7:14-25, with his final exclamation "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." His 'members' were still captivated by the 'law of sin', but in his renewed mind (& heart) he served God with all his strength.
Re: using Hebrew/Greek, I would disagree with what you shared. If that's the case, let us not read the Bible at all & just be led of the Spirit in all things, since the Bible we read is in English (maybe another by-product from Babel). Knowing, or at least inclined to learn, from the original languages is one of the greatest endeavors to understanding the Bible & when we understand it, the Holy Spirit might make those heavenly Words meaningful to our hearts & enabling them to be applied to our lives. If the Word of God that we read is already Spirit-charged, then I regard that written Word of equal authority to the other ministries of the Holy Spirit to God's children. But it's important as to how we read the Word & rest our beliefs on a correct & firm foundation; for upon this our beliefs & ministry are built. Blessings.
I am one who does not hold to the view that the physical body is evil in itself. God designed it. It is good. The 'flesh' that is spoken of often by Paul is our sinful nature that always seeks to sin through our body, mind, and soul. But, as the result of the fall of Adam and Eve, our body is subject to the corruption that comes from the sinful nature that brings illness, deterioration, and death to all who live in this earth. Our bodies do not think up the sin it does, our sinful nature does, and it tempts our minds to carry out the sinful thoughts and urges in our thoughts, words, and deeds, and also from doing the good we ought to do.
There's 2 states that we may attain in this life, 1st, is to be brought back to the innocents of Eden before the fall, where we're yet capable of falling, if were not steadfastly abiding in Him. Jn 15:5; 1Jn 3:6; the fruit mention here is that of His Spirit, the Divine Nature, & good works naturally follows.
2nd state is to be brought into the state in Christ, who never fell, though He was tempted, being tempted is not a sin. This life is explained in Rom 6:2-8; Eph 2:6; Jn 17:21-24; Luke 6:40; the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, to be experience here & now.
Paul in Gal 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2 was speaking from the Presence of God, He was phyically on earth, but His consciousness was in His Presence, Eph 6:20
This is impossibility as long as we remain sinners.
As one reads God's words; 1Jn 3:3-5, 9,10; Col 1:22; Holy Spirit creates a desire, an expectation to actually experience what the writers of the Scriptures possessed & lived. This standard of perfection/holiness that Jesus commands in Matt 5:48; is declared as the same of the Father. He as a loving Father has provided the Way & the Means to attain it & that through His Son, His Spirit of Grace / Light
At my present measure, I'm in the 1st state; What God requires of us all is to walk according to the Truth that we know, & as we abide in Him through the 1 Pet 1:7-9; we grow in Grace & more Light is given unto us; Pro 4:18 & this perfection can be added too 2 Cor 4:6,7; Salvation is not instant, Heb 5:9; 9:28; Rom 10:10; the words "unto salvation"; denotes a progressive work of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, & there's a mighty work of the Spirit to be wrought in cleansing out the temple of all the foul guest that has inhabit us in the times of our alienation....
As long as we live in this mortal life we will have the sinful nature in us even though, as believers, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, too. And the Holy Spirit wars against the sinful nature all of our mortal lives, increasingly winning the victory over our sinfulness as He sanctifies us bit by bit, from glory to glory ( 2Cor. 3:17-18; Romans 7:13-25 as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to put to death the works of the sinful nature ( Romans 8:12-13).
It will be only in the life to come when we have put of mortality and the corrupt sinful nature due to the resurrection of our bodies to immortality and in corruptibility will we be freed from the death sentence brought on us by the sin of Adam and our own sin and our sinful nature died when we died physically, when we will enter into the eternal state perfect, glorified, and completely separated from sin and any sinful inclination forever. Hallelujah!
In this life we are to fight the good fight of faith in what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross and through His resurrection. It is in this life that we are to fight against our sinful nature by walking according to the Holy Spirit who is at work empowering us to obey God and to will and do the will of God. We will never come to a point of perfection in this life because the sinful nature continues in us until our last breath. But we can grow and mature in holiness as we surrender to the lead of the Holy Spirit who teaches us through the Scriptures as to how we are to live in each moment.
No we cannot achieve perfection in these sinful lust filled bodies.
restraining from sin doesn't make you perfect.
Example;
If you chain a vicious man biting dog up, does that keep him from "WANTING" to bite? He's still a man biting vicious dog.
We Christians have a change of heart and a nature that wants to obey the spirit which brings life, but we have another enemy that won't go away called the flesh.
The flesh lust to do evil and wars against the new nature.
See Romans 7.
And if you want a broader picture read Romans 5 on through Romans 8.
the woman taken in the very act of adultery, "go & sin no more", the man who was ill waiting by the pool, "sin no more, lest a worst thing come upon you". He commands us to be perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect. It would be a cruel hoax for Christ to command these thing if it was not attainable. For it would not only be making Christ a liar, who is the personalification of Truth, but it would be putting God mocking mankind & not saving mankind & therefore be no Savior. Roman 5 thru 8 confirms this, for the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin & death. Which is the Grace of God that appears to all mankind bringing us salvation, a deliverance from the law of sin & death. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil within the heart of mankind. For those who are lead by the Spirit of God are the sons of God, & the Spirit of God would never lead us into sin, defining who are His sons, The Law of the Spirit of Life/Grace/Light, the divine Power that gives us all things that pertain to life & godliness through the knowledge of Him who has call us to glory & virtue, meaning partakers of the Divine Nature having escape the corruption that is in this world through lust & against such there is no law.
I perceive here, according to the plain wording of Scriptures, your counsel is contrary to Truth, Jesus came to bring us back to the beginning, His image, His likeness & as long as we remain sinning & in the Adamic nature with all the works of the flesh that's a impossiblilty. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, walking as He walk, even as He is so are we in this world. This would be without sin. Your counsel, would be putting the devil more powerful than Christ & there would be no crushing of the devil underneath our feet, the Seed bruising his head as promise.
Yes, I believe we can, if we have Faith in God, and Believe in His words, and we live in His Spirit, Jesus tells us all things are Possible. Matthew 17:20 1 John 3:5-9 and 2 Corinthians 5:17
Just like the scripture above, we would like to believe it, but we have doubt, and so our unbelief continues to provide Satan the opportunity to sow doubt, and we give him a resting place in our mind, and the ongoing ability to continue to control our mind.
Today, all we hear is a loud and deafening drumbeat from Christians telling other Christians - we can never stop sinning, reinforcing sin contrary to what Jesus tells us what he expects from us. John 8:11 and John 5:14
"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."
Today God gives us the same choice that he gave Adam and Eve. Gen 2:16-17 But we continue to eat from the wrong tree.
GBU
In Chris last point, he has a solid reasoning concerning the Scriptures that we now possess.
Yet, none of the translations are 100% accurate, one says the meaning is this, & another says no, its this.
Ephesians 4:5; & He's the John 1;1; is Christ divided? Look back in history & take note how much blood was shed because of this division of the Word. Is this not turning Christ words against His works. The Lord is One.
Reading over the whole of our conversation, the intent I purpose to reveal was not the discrediting of the Scriptures, but that they are spiritually discerned. That man un-regenerated heart Jeremiah 17:9, would shun the cross & choose another method than ordain of God to know him. & lets keep in mind that the Scriptures are only 2Timothy 3:16; the Strong's Complete Exhausted Concordance, etc; is not! Though ever so skillfully endeavored. Man has turn this note worthy endeavor into a replacement of Him. The promise is that God will teach His people Himself, Isa 54:13; the results; we come to know Him, a personal intimate fellowship; 1John 1:1-3; This has been God's heart desire from the beginning & only by coming in the Way that He has provided will make this a reality, along with all His other promises. We must look to His Spirit John 16:13, Zechariah 4:6;
In love & truth
Frankie J
We need to differentiate between the inner man; or our hearts and our actions; which express what is going on within us. It is much like a disease which may be present before anyone can diagnose it. The act of sin is a process that starts with allowing our minds to consider something ungodly; and as believers that often is associated with thoughts from Satan or his minions influencing us (such as in Matthew 16:23). In that case we see how what would seem like the best humanitarian approach to a close friend protecting another was against God's greater purposes; which may in Peter's logic have seemed like righteous indignation. Instead; it betrayed his own blindness toward what Christ had repeatedly predicted and was being ignorant of what the Spirit had recently revealed to him about Christ being Lord and Savior. Weaknesses can therefore be either used for God's glory ( 2 Corinthians 12:10) as stated by Paul; or something that can be a repeated snare; as seen by Peter's boasting that he would even die for Christ ( John 13:37). This illustrates once again how we must never lean to our own understanding or strength in boasting.
Sanctification therefore continually transforms us as we mature in the faith. We are operating in forgiveness for all sins; past present and future IF truly saved. That is crucial for when we do sin we must ask forgiveness ( 1 John 2;1-2); and be restored; reclaiming our blood bought standing. If there is a lifestyle of sin which would mean deliberate repeated actions without any remorse it is evidence that there is no contention between the Spirit and flesh ( Gal. 5:17) and salvation can be questioned. Restoration is only possible if we are truly children of God.
1Jn 1:8-10 explains the operations of John 16:8; & the exercises of Hebrews 5:13;14; when He convicts of sin or of righteousness, He bring these two seeds of thought within into judgment. The still small Voice of conscience that reproves us of sinful thoughts, words or actions, this is Grace Titus 2:11 / Light John 1:9 Christ spiritual appearance within our hearts, Ephesians 5:13; to 1 John 3:8; if rejected, His word has no place within us, & we call Him a liar & why? John 3:19,20; Rom 1:18,19; rejecting Him, we suppress the Truth in unrighteousness. Therefore we don't John 1:12; but if we receive His convictions, we received the power that comes with the conviction to become the sons of God, for the 1Cor 12:7; More insight of the Spirit operations within conscience, Rom 2:15;
So there's a time when Holy Spirit comes to us as sinners, for Rom 3:23 & a time ( if we received His words ) repentance is granted & we're cleanse from all sin. 1 John 1:9; Titus 2:14; 2Cor 7:1; by the 1 Pet 1:23; = Light, becoming Matt 5:48; 1 Pet 1:15,16; for they that are 1Cor 6:17 & in Him 1 John 3:5; All by the working of Grace / Light / Spirit appearance within conscience.
In Love & Truth
Frankie J
Your question took me back to over two years ago, when an enquirer on this Site stated that since the time of his re-birth, he had never committed any sin; and he also referenced similar passages to what you've given as to the re-birth by the Holy Spirit Who ensures that no sin can ever be committed. So this discussion between us went on for a little while, until it occurred to me, 'how does this brother define sin; was it the breaking of the Ten Commandments & any other overt sin that may not be mentioned in the Bible?'
He stated, he just doesn't sin. I then gave an example of a sin that I had recently committed. While waiting at the traffic red light, I noticed a car driving through his red light, fortunately just avoiding an accident. My immediate thought & response was not good at all. My heart tightened, my thoughts were not the best, I felt anger & upset as to that driver's carelessness & a possible major accident. The Holy Spirit immediately arrested me & showed me my sin even though I may have justified it. I shared this account with that brother & asked if he ever felt something similar in his heart, giving outward expression. I never heard from him again. So, I'm always interested in any person who believes that they have or have reached a state of sinless perfection, whether their assessment is based on the sins the Bible reveals or on all those other sins hidden from view of others. To my understanding, I've yet to meet anyone that can truly say he is sinless.
..... Eph 6:12; 2 Cor 10:3,4,5; Matt 15:18; Matt 12:34 both seeds or kingdoms are within.
Paul gives us an insight of his growth in grace in 1Cor 9:27; he considers himself capable to falling, he kept his body under, then in Rom 8:35-39; he had reach a level of the stature an fullness of Christ that nothing could separate Him from the love of Christ Jesus his Lord. Sin separates, as Eden experience tell us & our own experiences bares witness to us.
Chris; you've accurately describe in your own experience His Grace/Light spiritual appearance within your heart, following Him in this manner will Titus 2: 14; Eze 36:25; the washing of the water of the Word; the incorruptible Seed; becoming holy, blameless unreproachable in His sight, that we may experience 2 Cor 6:16; Gal 2:20; Luke 6:40; Jn 17: 21-24
The veil of the flesh is taken away by Christ, that the intimacy, oneness with Him in Spirit may be known & felt in our hearts here on earth.
Hope this stimulates your query;
in love & truth
Franke J
a. 'You are in State 1, as in Eden before the fall' - I assume slowly progressing to attain the fullness of that state. The only problem with this is that you & I have a sin nature inherited from Adam & Eve, whereas before the fall Adam & Eve had no sin - they were pure. Romans 5:12-14. If we could ever reach that state before death, i.e. of total purity as A & E, there would be no need to die physically as sin would no longer be in our members & the sin nature once given without choice, would be eradicated. But death will come to all of us proving we are still sinners, and should the Lord tarry, our dying will prove without doubt that our inherited sin nature demands the death penalty ( Romans 6:23). For this Christ came, that we might be resurrected into new & eternal life because of His forgiveness of our sins thus giving us clear consciences before God.
b. Paul never ever reached full purity or sinlessness ( Romans 7:14-25) - he would have yearned for it but he knew that while in this body that desire to be exactly like his Savior would be impossible. And his exclamation: "O wretched man that I am", was his constant sense of failure before an Holy God, but he kept his body in subjection & his eyes fixed on Jesus, aiming for the prize ( Philippians 3:12-14).
c. I agree, 'being tempted is not a sin', even as Christ was tempted. But Jesus never gave in to it even to the agony of the Cross. Could we ever say the same for us sinners, destined for hell, but saved only by the Grace of God? The Work of the Spirit is constant & should be a witness inwardly & outwardly as we mature in faith & love - but our perfection will only come beyond the grave when our sin nature will be gone & "we will be like Him", both physically & when the flesh will be cleansed from all evil. Blessings.
Chris
Yes, its been a slow progression of learning the Cross, denying self, & dying daily. 2Cor 4:11. I've come to know in personal experience the spiritual warfare of Jeremiah 17:9, & the childhood Hebs 12:11; separating me from my servanthood of sin. I've been so dull of hearing & slow of heart to believe all that Holy Spirit ever spoke to me. God has been very gracious & His longsuffering love extended exceedingly toward me, blessing & honor to Him alone of what He has accomplish thus far within me. You see, like you I had a very similar experience with God in 82, reading your testimony, I said to myself, he had the same spiritual encounter with God that I had, with the same response. & I wondered; whether it was to the same purpose, for at that moment in life, I was in such deep & gross darkness, that if God hadn't intervene, I would have never made out of my twenties alive, Selah.
Gen 2:17; Rom 5:12-14;
The death spoken of here is a spiritual death separating them / us from partaking of the life of God, the fellowship with Him, the cause disobedience & effect spiritual death. For truly they died spiritually that moment they transgress God commandment, & their eyes were open to the carnal part of their creation, & they loss in spirit the spiritual consciousness of the spiritual part, that image they were created in. Now it was just a memory of past experiences, instead of an abiding habitation with God in Spirit. The must of the new birth; Jn 3:3,5,6,7; that we may again partake of Him, Ephesian 2:22; 1Jn 1,2,3; this speaks of His spiritual appearances within our heart, for he states in verse 1Jn 1:5 God is Light in the face of Jesus Christ 2Cor 4:6 ..
..The salvation that Jesus offers is redemption from the sinful nature that resulted from the fall of Adam; Hebs 10:22 denotes cleansing of our conscience & bodies too! How can we draw near to Him as stated here if not possess here? its confirm by Rom 12:1; 1 Timothy 3:9 Paul had; Hebs 9:14 the dead works are our transgressions. It appears to me that all who reply to my original question, thinks that the body in & of itself is evil, when it's just a tabernacle, a vessel animated by the spirit & souls. Become born again by His Spirit & transformed by the renewing of our minds, meaning Philippians 2:5; 1 Cor 2:16 & everyone that has this hope, 1Jn 3:3 becomes a certainty, by the operations of the Grace of God, 1 Cor 12:7
Rom 6:23 refer to being spiritually dead, as the whole of Rom 6 speaks of being dead unto sin & alive unto Christ. Your implying that all the writers of the Scriptures are hypocrites, pretending to be something their not, Scriptures declares otherwise 2 Pet 1:21 Do you really believe Holy Spirit would contradict Himself from commanding us to "sin not" God forbid, sin shall not have dominion over you, then in chapter 7, to continue in sin? This is not 2 Tim 2:15;
Paul here is relating his struggles in the operations of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, he comes to the end of his rope of self efforts in which he walk in under the law, "blameless"! & now is learning the spiritual warfare of Ephesians 6:12; 2Cor 10:3-6, for mankind was overcome spiritually & must be redeem spiritually. He receive the revelation of the righteousness that is by faith, Rom 7:24; The Light; 2 Cor 4:6,7: The Word, Rom 10:8; The Law, Rom 8:2; The Spirit, Rom 8:11-13, John 16:13; & is not a lie. 1 John 2:27
The great work of regeneration & renewing, picking up the Cross, the Power of God unto salvation, the dying daily, Gal 2:20; Paul knew John 8:32;. You quoted Philippians 3:12 read further :15 the word for mature is also translated "perfect" in the NKJV. (& by the way, I DON'T advocate anyone to the studying of the letter by natural arts of Hebrew/Greek etc; the different language begin at Babel, meaning confusion, & that's just what has happen, there' over 45,000 different sect's of Christianity worldwide, each proclaiming "here is Christ," When Christianity was first birth & brought forth by His Spirit, Act 4:32; Ephesians 4:5; is that the case today? Its more like Judges 21:25; God's words are Spirit & is only understood & possess by the Spirit which gave them forth. 2Cor 2:11,12; Gal 3:2 the Spirit is received by faith, which comes by hearing the Word of God in our heart, not the letter, for the letter kills, the Spirit alone gives us the very life of God, to be manifested in our mortal bodies, to the destroying ALL, ALL, ALL the works of the devil & conform us to Christ, Rom 8:39; Luke 6:40; The letter cannot do this, Scripture plainly points & instructs us in this, "he that hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit has to say.) Sanctification "making holy" is on this side of the grave, the work of Titus 2:11,12 & its includes the whole man, spirit, soul & body. Titus 2:14 cleansing us from ALL iniquity, that we may Col 1:22. The faith y'all are promoting is 2 Timothy 3:5; Gal 5:8,9
The angel proclaimed Matt 1:21; His Name declares His works "He shall saved them from their sins, not in their sins"
There's much more that could be brought forth here; Rom 6 -8
The Spirit prayer in Ephesians 1:17-21 "not only in this world, but that which is to come" Thy Kingdom come, here on earth as it is in heaven.
hope all will seriously consider & weigh these words. 2 Cor 3:5,6
In Love & Truth
Frankie J
Thank you again Frankie J for the lengthy comment - I shall pick up on the 'important' matters.
Romans 5:12-14. I certainly agree that spiritual death is seen in these verses, but also that as a result of sin's entrance into A & E & then into humanity, physical death was also the outcome. If this wasn't the case, would you say that A & E would have experienced physical death anyway if they remained without sin? I liken this to what our state will be in the Millennial Rule of Christ & beyond, where sin is finally vanquished & physical death will be no more. Both spiritual death & physical death are results of sin & the human corruption. Absolute purity of life, without any stain of sin can only be attained after we leave behind these bodies of sin.
I certainly don't "imply that the writers of the Scriptures are hypocrites". Rather, they speak of the new birth, the new revived spirit in man & what this means & how we ought to live. Even in Romans 6 as you quoted, where the apostle writes of 'death to sin, crucifixion of the old man, & being freed from sin', can he or anyone who received his message ever claim that sin was now eradicated from every part of their being? Rather, the message has always been not to let sin have dominion over them. What is this? Sinlessness, or through their new birth & abiding Holy Spirit, they should never be servants to sin but to righteousness. Here we have the new God-given life, in mortal sin-affected bodies, determined now by the Spirit's Work, to live for God & doing His Will & not be servants to sinful passions. Has sin left them or ever will leave them? Never. But they can have victory over it & so the great need for that blessed spiritual armor to deal with Satan's onslaughts & not live in defeat. We might now live unto God, but sin will always be at our door & we will always fail simply because the sin nature is still active revealing itself even in the most insignificant of sins; because we know that sin is sin.
Rom 5:12-14
I would agree with all except, for the last sentence, beginning with "Absolute Purity". Luke 6:40; 1John 4:17; Rom 12:1; the plain write of the words used denotes we're still living in this world.
Hypocrites; I don't believe you intentionally imply this, yet the results of your statement implying this. They did not speak of the new birth, but from the new birth, 2Cor 5:17; Ezekiel 36:25,26,27; heart of flesh; denotes our life now in the flesh. Eph 4:24; you put Him on, here; Col 3:10; The apostles lived, enjoy & possessed what they preached; Philippians 3:15,16; Again, what God required of us is to live according to the measure of the Truth that He has revealed, the apostles received Acts 1:8' Eph 1:19; Eph 3:20; Col 1:29; to do so.
You stated "has sin left them or ever leave them: Never, but they can have victory over sin; this is an oxymoron. Being born again of His Spirit alias; Matt 3:11-12; the threshing floor of the heart is thoroughly purge of the chaff. (sin nature), the spiritual old man of sin, the Adamic nature that animates the flesh. He's deny, mortify & final crucify, he's dead & self is seen no more. All by the Grace appearance within our hearts.
Friend,,,,your covering yourself, but not with the Spirit of the Lord, but with; Gen 3:7;
Your the understanding is veiled, for only the spirit of darkness would plead for sin to remain within one, after all that God has wrought & revealed to us through His Son. For he (Satan) knows that despite one's profession, though maybe ever so high or lofty, & profess with elegant words, it what one does that defines him, Rom 6:16; John 8:34; Rom 2:6;
Hebrews 9:11,12,13,14,15; do you hear what the Spirit is saying here? The flesh purified, OT, now in NT even our conscience cleanse, the heart. Eternal inheritance Roman 8:17; 2 Pet 1:4; John 17:21-23;
Therefore, 2Cor 7:1;
In Love & Truth
Frankie J
1 John 4:17: "Herein is our love made perfect" (Gk: teleioo = to be made complete); i.e. 'he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him' (v16): true love is made complete when we are truly abiding in God.
Romans 12:1: "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God". (Gk: hagios (holy): set apart for God, sacred). That is how we come before God presenting ourselves: holy by position - holy by purification. The apostle's earnest plea is that we come with clean hands & pure hearts. Sinless? Can never be - our sin nature is still with us, but we can come with all sin confessed & clear pure consciences.
To the rest of your comment with supporting Scriptures, it appears again that you equate the new life in Christ as being freed from sin. It is true that we have been cleansed & our spirits have been made new & in that sense absolutely perfect. But we still live in bodies of flesh, sin & corruption. If the new birth dealt with that matter of perfecting our bodies (the flesh), I would fully agree with you, but the Bible never teaches that & experience always shows that the spiritual battle over sin can never end but rages every moment of the day, some succumb to it, others find victory. But in the end, confession & correction restores fellowship & cleansing of the heart & conscience - it never makes one sinless. If you find disagreement here, then maybe you can outline what you consider as sin - for this point may well be where our misunderstanding lies. GBU.
Your strengthening the fig leaf covering here!
Chris, tell me, the experience you spoke of in your car, did you pull out your Strong's concordance for understanding, to correct your thoughts or for that matter to make you aware them? Or, was it the Light of God Spirit within you, that admonish you? Ephesians 5:13;
New life equated; being free from sin, not just in & of itself, but the best part, being partakers of the Divine Nature, union with John 17:21,22,23; Jesus came to show us the image & likeness that God created man in, Matt 11:29; Gal 5:22-24; this is the true dignity & glory of our creation, & how he took dominion over the earth. Mark 6:48,49; Mark 4:39-41; Matt 17:27; etc; fulfilling Gen 1:26 & will ultimately fulfill it through His body, the church, here on earth as it is in heaven.
I have not stated; as you're implying the perfecting of the body, physically, it still remains under the penalty of sin consequences. Yet can be pure & holy, being animated by the new birth & renewing of the mind by His Spirit; John 3:3-6; 1Thess 5:23,24; "wholly", not of position only, but possession.
I mention; I Didn't advocate studying the Scriptures by carnal means, by the arts of natural science as you would for a vocation.
Doing this feeds the natural part in man, with a knowledge apart from the Life of God, nor can such knowledge give us the life of God, for how can it? The flaming swords which guards the Tree of Life only gives way to those who are led by the Spirit. 2Cor 3:6; The letter in any dispensation kills, giving him a form of godliness without the power to be truly godly. It a false form, promotes self righteousness, one doesn't come to 1John 1:1 in a personal encounter with the living God in Spirit, who would lead him to take up the cross, teach him to deny, mortify & crucify spiritual old man of sin, by the operation of the Spirit to the rebirth & renewing of the mind. Instead; it offers a fake cross that flesh carnal mind can easily carry & bare It doesn't separates him from 1John 2:16, but leaves him one in it. It takes away our dependence from God, Psalms 123:2; that God maybe all in all, for He alone is the blessedness of the creature.
I'm speaking not from hearsay, but from 27 yrs of personal experience, than in 2010 while in ministry school, God extended His outstretch Arm, encountering me again & slowly began opening the eyes of my heart, as I was able to bear it, to what I've been speaking of here, leading me to quit school & Luke 9:23
OT promises, Isa 54:13 Jeremiah 31:33-34; confirmed in NT, Hebrews 8: 10,11,12; why is it that God doesn't remember their sins? Because He has cleanse them of all unrighteousness & has endue them with His Spirit & they sin no more. Jeremiah 32:39-41; The cause & effect of God teaching us Himself, & that by His Spirit John 14:13,14,15; with all His Heart & all His Soul; says the LORD, Selah.
Consider; it was not until the 14th or 15th century that these things became widely available, & then it was only to the learned & privilege. The Apostasy that the Apostles spoke of was already at work in their day & came into full maturity with the Roman Catholic's Rev17:2 for then the world was Rome. Daniel 2:40
Who taught Moses, etc; even Jesus John 7:15; the disciples etc; one educated, Paul & he Philippians 3:7,8,9,10; he relied on Philippians 1:19; What about all the people in time that didn't get a chance to learn how to read or were in the remote regions of the earth were the Scriptures were unavailable? Or hear the Good New being preach in the power of the Holy Ghost? His words are, "from the least to the greatest". His Spirit is able to reach them to the uttermost, even the blind, deaf, dumb-mentally, etc; Jeremiah 32:27;
Chris, everyone; consider these things. God is just, He's not going to condemn someone for something they did not know. Rom 1:17, which comes by Rom 10:17; which is in Rom 10:8; continue Rom 1:19; & that by His 1Cor 2:10; He's that Light that admonish you in the car, follow Him & He will lead ALL that do to the Father. He's the Treasure 2Cor 4:7 that's opens our understanding to the knowledge & the glory of God, it's the face of Jesus Christ.
You ask what define as sin? Rom 14:23;
In Love & Truth
Frankie J
Even in Jeremiah 31:33,34, God hasn't cleansed them yet & "remembered their sin no more". That is still future Israel turns to the Lord & the sins of the past are indeed forgiven & forgotten, as He graciously deals with us today.
For the greater part of your pages 2 & 3, I'm unsure why you presented that with what we're discussing, so unsure how to deal with it. Was it primarily about considering what the original languages & their meanings/applications are to the Scriptures? That is, going deep into the Word or hearing from the Spirit?
And yes, Romans 14:23 is a great definition of what sin is, which of course would need examination to learn how the working of one's faith in relation to sin brings about either victory or defeat. And I would add, it is both the working of faith & of the Spirit that the believer engages with when confronted with sin; without the Spirit's Power defeat is certain. GBU
"you don't know why I would bring up this matter, as it pertains to our discussion. When in Truth, it reaches to the very heart of it.
Going to the letter, in Hebrew or Greek etc; as you quoted & spoke from, comes from the traditions & teaching of man, the wisdom that's from below, earthy, which makes Mark 7:13, which sprang up in the Apostasy. Isa 55:8,9;
Whereas coming to the Spirit, our Teacher; The Word Rom 10:8; that comes Rom 10:17; within us, produces the fruit, the Word intended Isa 55;11; Isa 14:27;
Bringing this part of the conversation to a conclusion, by giving "the cause & effect of the learning from the letter, verses being taught by God Himself.
1Cor 2:10 which is freely & lavishly given unto us in Christ. Col 2:2,3; Proverbs 8:14;
You said; you don't subscribe to this type of application of sanctification ; citing verses with the word meaning; its plain to me that your faith is coming from books, & not our Teacher; who is Hebrews 12:2. Your trying to understand spiritual things by carnal means, Thus this faith you have is 2Timothy 3:7 Meaning; it will never bring one to the experiential knowledge of God; in Spirit & in Truth. Matt 11:27; For God is a Spirit & only by His Spirit is He manifested & known.
Jeremiah 31:33,34; New Covenant, he's prophesying, not that he partook of it, 1Peter 1:10; & yet he was cleansed & holy under the gospel of his dispensation 2 Peter 1:21; as many were Luke 1:5,6;
Again; what God requires of us, is to walk upright in the knowledge that He has given us.
Thank you for your kind apology, no offense taken, just a misunderstanding. Believe me, in this slow progressive work of sanctification, I've have had many misunderstanding & faltering, receiving His reproofs & admonishments, I've learnt Daniel 4:37; I love the way He gets to me. He always "hit the nail on the head" so to speak,& why? Daniel 2:22, Psalms 36:9;
you have experience Him in Spirit, Chris (in the car)
in Love & Truth
Frankie J
Thank you Frankie J. You wrote: "I have not stated; as you're implying the perfecting of the body, physically, it still remains under
the penalty of sin consequences." Actually, I always go back to the original post or question, i.e. "Can we reach a state of perfection in our lifes on earth , where we actually sin no more?"
I apologize, I understood that your original question did imply (or at least seeking) answers to that question of reaching perfection in our earthly lives. And from our discussions, I gathered that you did in fact believe that it is possible to do so; so sensed that you might be at or near that blessed state. Whereas the basis of these discussions between us is that my belief is that we will never reach that state in this life: our spirits might be renewed & made pure, but we still live in corrupt flesh & thus sin ever waits to manifest itself & it does so.
Yet, your statement continued: "Yet (the body?) can be pure & holy, being animated by the new birth & renewing of the mind by His Spirit; John 3:3-6; 1Thess 5:23,24; "wholly", not of position only, but possession." This is the point of our difference. As you wrote: "wholly, not of position only, but possession". Yes, we are 'sanctified wholly', but I'm afraid that what it boils down to is that your understanding of sanctification or wherever 'perfection, complete', etc. are used, you take it as being perfectly pure/clean now. And I think you will remember from my previous comment, that I don't subscribe to this type of application; even citing examples from 1 John 4:17 & Romans 12:1. So I think we need to leave that matter there, as we simply cannot reconcile those (& other) verses to what we believe.
Romans 7. You stated, "Paul here is relating his struggles in the operations of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience". If this is as you say, then it certainly implies that sanctification can only be realized when the sins of the flesh are dealt with. When sin is removed completely, then sanctification is complete. See his agony in Romans 7:14-25, with his final exclamation "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." His 'members' were still captivated by the 'law of sin', but in his renewed mind (& heart) he served God with all his strength.
Re: using Hebrew/Greek, I would disagree with what you shared. If that's the case, let us not read the Bible at all & just be led of the Spirit in all things, since the Bible we read is in English (maybe another by-product from Babel). Knowing, or at least inclined to learn, from the original languages is one of the greatest endeavors to understanding the Bible & when we understand it, the Holy Spirit might make those heavenly Words meaningful to our hearts & enabling them to be applied to our lives. If the Word of God that we read is already Spirit-charged, then I regard that written Word of equal authority to the other ministries of the Holy Spirit to God's children. But it's important as to how we read the Word & rest our beliefs on a correct & firm foundation; for upon this our beliefs & ministry are built. Blessings.
I am one who does not hold to the view that the physical body is evil in itself. God designed it. It is good. The 'flesh' that is spoken of often by Paul is our sinful nature that always seeks to sin through our body, mind, and soul. But, as the result of the fall of Adam and Eve, our body is subject to the corruption that comes from the sinful nature that brings illness, deterioration, and death to all who live in this earth. Our bodies do not think up the sin it does, our sinful nature does, and it tempts our minds to carry out the sinful thoughts and urges in our thoughts, words, and deeds, and also from doing the good we ought to do.
Hi Chris
I welcome your interest in my question;
There's 2 states that we may attain in this life, 1st, is to be brought back to the innocents of Eden before the fall, where we're yet capable of falling, if were not steadfastly abiding in Him. Jn 15:5; 1Jn 3:6; the fruit mention here is that of His Spirit, the Divine Nature, & good works naturally follows.
2nd state is to be brought into the state in Christ, who never fell, though He was tempted, being tempted is not a sin. This life is explained in Rom 6:2-8; Eph 2:6; Jn 17:21-24; Luke 6:40; the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, to be experience here & now.
Paul in Gal 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2 was speaking from the Presence of God, He was phyically on earth, but His consciousness was in His Presence, Eph 6:20
This is impossibility as long as we remain sinners.
As one reads God's words; 1Jn 3:3-5, 9,10; Col 1:22; Holy Spirit creates a desire, an expectation to actually experience what the writers of the Scriptures possessed & lived. This standard of perfection/holiness that Jesus commands in Matt 5:48; is declared as the same of the Father. He as a loving Father has provided the Way & the Means to attain it & that through His Son, His Spirit of Grace / Light
At my present measure, I'm in the 1st state; What God requires of us all is to walk according to the Truth that we know, & as we abide in Him through the 1 Pet 1:7-9; we grow in Grace & more Light is given unto us; Pro 4:18 & this perfection can be added too 2 Cor 4:6,7; Salvation is not instant, Heb 5:9; 9:28; Rom 10:10; the words "unto salvation"; denotes a progressive work of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, & there's a mighty work of the Spirit to be wrought in cleansing out the temple of all the foul guest that has inhabit us in the times of our alienation....
As long as we live in this mortal life we will have the sinful nature in us even though, as believers, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, too. And the Holy Spirit wars against the sinful nature all of our mortal lives, increasingly winning the victory over our sinfulness as He sanctifies us bit by bit, from glory to glory ( 2Cor. 3:17-18; Romans 7:13-25 as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to put to death the works of the sinful nature ( Romans 8:12-13).
It will be only in the life to come when we have put of mortality and the corrupt sinful nature due to the resurrection of our bodies to immortality and in corruptibility will we be freed from the death sentence brought on us by the sin of Adam and our own sin and our sinful nature died when we died physically, when we will enter into the eternal state perfect, glorified, and completely separated from sin and any sinful inclination forever. Hallelujah!
In this life we are to fight the good fight of faith in what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross and through His resurrection. It is in this life that we are to fight against our sinful nature by walking according to the Holy Spirit who is at work empowering us to obey God and to will and do the will of God. We will never come to a point of perfection in this life because the sinful nature continues in us until our last breath. But we can grow and mature in holiness as we surrender to the lead of the Holy Spirit who teaches us through the Scriptures as to how we are to live in each moment.
No we cannot achieve perfection in these sinful lust filled bodies.
restraining from sin doesn't make you perfect.
Example;
If you chain a vicious man biting dog up, does that keep him from "WANTING" to bite? He's still a man biting vicious dog.
We Christians have a change of heart and a nature that wants to obey the spirit which brings life, but we have another enemy that won't go away called the flesh.
The flesh lust to do evil and wars against the new nature.
See Romans 7.
And if you want a broader picture read Romans 5 on through Romans 8.
I Hope this helps.
God bless
Consider;
the woman taken in the very act of adultery, "go & sin no more", the man who was ill waiting by the pool, "sin no more, lest a worst thing come upon you". He commands us to be perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect. It would be a cruel hoax for Christ to command these thing if it was not attainable. For it would not only be making Christ a liar, who is the personalification of Truth, but it would be putting God mocking mankind & not saving mankind & therefore be no Savior. Roman 5 thru 8 confirms this, for the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin & death. Which is the Grace of God that appears to all mankind bringing us salvation, a deliverance from the law of sin & death. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil within the heart of mankind. For those who are lead by the Spirit of God are the sons of God, & the Spirit of God would never lead us into sin, defining who are His sons, The Law of the Spirit of Life/Grace/Light, the divine Power that gives us all things that pertain to life & godliness through the knowledge of Him who has call us to glory & virtue, meaning partakers of the Divine Nature having escape the corruption that is in this world through lust & against such there is no law.
I perceive here, according to the plain wording of Scriptures, your counsel is contrary to Truth, Jesus came to bring us back to the beginning, His image, His likeness & as long as we remain sinning & in the Adamic nature with all the works of the flesh that's a impossiblilty. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, walking as He walk, even as He is so are we in this world. This would be without sin. Your counsel, would be putting the devil more powerful than Christ & there would be no crushing of the devil underneath our feet, the Seed bruising his head as promise.
In Love & Truth
Frankie J
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