Bible Discussion Thread

Hi Ronald.

Thank you for your time chart.

It's pretty much like mine at first glance.

But the second part of your post I can't agree with.

You mentioned; "We cannot put the people in 70 AD and the prince in the future.

I partially agree with you there.

The people of the prince is future to Daniel but past to us.

The Prince that shall come is clearly going forward after the Messiah cut off and future of the Destruction of Jerusalem.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come...."

You mentioned the usage of King Nebuchadnezzar as an example to Christ being the Prince of of Rome.



In the OT God raised up rulers and nations to chasten Israel and he called them his anointed, "They were raised to power for a certain purpose"

But he never called them his people.

Messiah the Prince associates Jesus with Israel connected by the word Messiah.

But often times in the book of Daniel prince is used consistently to identify the demonic source behind the scene influencing the concurring nations.

Daniel 10:13, and Daniel 10:20. for example.

Rome dominion never ended.

The prince that shall come represents them.

We see three world powers in Daniels images.

We see the princes behind those powers with the dreadful beast rising out of the last one. "Rome"

and he shall confirm a covenant for one week. If this is Jesus what part of the Gospels declare this 7 year covenant?

You mentioned earlier the 3.5 years before the crucifixion when Christ was baptized as the half way point of the 70th week.

How did you get 3.5 years and can you give details of the last 3.5 years?

I've shared my view earlier in my original reply to this post. .

Thanks in advance. .

God bless

S Spencer

Part 2

When Jesus first came it was for only the lost sheep of Israel the same for the prophecy of Dan. 9:25-27 Matt. 15:24. Jesus instructed the disciples/apostles not to go unto the Samaritans or Gentiles Matt. 10:5-7. He also told them to stay in Jerusalem and wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit Acts 1:4-5.

And we see they stayed in Jerusalem because they had not yet been told it was time to carry the gospel to the Gentiles and we see the confusion of it in Acts. This did not happen for another 3.5 years. We see in Acts 7 Stephen was in front of the high priest and the other leaders, the same ones who called for Jesus's crucifixion and what they said in Acts 7:54-57 (they cried out and stopped their ears) and killed Stephen. They fully rejected Jesus as the Messiah the Son of God.

Stephen's death as the first Martyr 34-35 AD is 3.5 years after Jesus's crucifixion this would end the 70th week. Jesus confirmed the covenant Himself for the first 3.5 years and Jesus through His apostles for the last 3.5 years.

Then the persecution by the Jews Acts 8:1-4 After this Philip the Evangelist was the first to go to Samaria, and when the apostles heard, Peter and John went to see Acts 8:14-25. Then Saul/Paul's conversion, Acts 9. Peter had his dream in Acts 10 and the mystery of the gospel goes to the Gentiles.

I hope this all though brief will give enough to show my understanding and enough you can study it if you want. Thank you again for having this peaceful and respectful discussion on this important subject.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

Part 1.

Thanks for your timeline and I appreciate how you and I can present our view and keep it peacefully and yet have entirely different views.

I also have the start of Jesus ministry around the same time based off John 4:17-21.

I don't agree with Jesus being anointed by the Holy Spirit at his baptism.

Nowhere in Scripture do we find Him being the recipient of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, Jesus is the one who baptizes others with the Holy Spirit. John 1:33.

Jesus baptism was symbolic of His entrance into His public ministry into the OT priesthood TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.

At about thirty years of age, He was ceremonially washed with water and then set apart for that ministry. This set Him apart to do the work for which He had been called to do.

This is the same way the Old Testament priests began their service. They had to be at least thirty years of age, they were ceremonially washed with water and then they were anointed with oil on their head.

Messiah means "anointed one". The promised deliverer of the Jewish nation.

John identified him as the Messiah, but he didn't make him the Messiah.

Jesus was the Messiah at birth.

Luke 2:10-11.

Luke 2:34-38.

Matthew 1:20-21.

Ronald you authenicate your view of the begining of the 70th wee started because Andrew told Simon they have found the Messiah, and Philip told Nathanael and the demons knew who he was and so on.

But many knew who he was at birth and as a child!

Here is just one example Matthew 2:1.

The key is when did Jesus present his self as king? Not only that he arranged it.

Matthew 21:2.

Any other time they tried to make them king he wouldn't allow it.

John 6:15.

Let's revisit Daniel 9.

See part 2.

Hey S Spencer,

I do not consider myself part of a group other than the body of Christ, it is just me. We should be brothers and sisters without labels sharing our understanding of scripture and inspiring each other to study for the truth and I feel we have done that so far.

The Messiah/Christ, the son of God, the second man, our Lord who came from heaven, the last Adam sent by the Father to do the will of the Father. Matt. 11:25-27 Hebrew 2:9-14

Was Jesus filled with the Holy Ghost/Spirit? When Jesus was baptized what happened? None of the gospels clearly state that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit before His baptism Luke 2:40 is close but not affirmative. Why would Jesus need to be full of the Holy Ghost/Spirit? Philippians 2:5-8. Was Jesus the Messiah the Anointed One? Luke 4:18 Acts 10:38

The Holy Ghost/Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, Matt. 3:16-17 Luke 3:21-22 Mark 1:10 John 1:32. God put His Spirit upon him. Matt. 12:15-21 The Spirit remained on Him John 1:33

The Holy Ghost/Spirit led Jesus up into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matt. 4:1 Mark 1:12. Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost and was led by the Spirit. Luke 4:1. Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit Luke 4:14.

Jesus did miracles by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, Luke 5:17. He cast out devils by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, the Spirit of God Matt.12:28. Also John 14:10 (by the Holy Ghost/Spirit)

The scriptures were fulfilled Luke 4:18-21. The Holy Spirit was given to Jesus without measure John 3:34.

John's water baptism was as you said, God's anointing of the Holy Ghost/Spirit Matt.4:17 Mark 1:11 Luke 3:22.

I know you travel, so like Roy Rogers, happy trails to you, until we meet again. Showing my age, I will send more on the rest of part 1 and part 2.

God bless,

RLW

Thanks Brother Ronald.

Amen to the fact that we're either a child of God or not.

And if we're a child of God, confirmed by the Spirit, we're Brothers.

I've learned a lot from our discussion, as always.

Iron sharpens Iron and sometimes that's a rough display.

It's good to know ones point of view and how they arrived there. We should always examine that.

Sometimes we take what has been past down to us but yet don't understand.

God bless you Brother.

I'm the same as you in that respect Ronald , I don't even know what most of the labels , that some Christians use , actually mean and I have no desire to . We are members of his body , brothers and sisters . I have no idea what label anyone would put on me and I don't put any on myself other than Christian . When someone puts a label on themselves and then they might look at me and smile , as if I should know what all their beliefs are by the label they put on themselves , I just smile and say nothing :) . To me , your a Christian or you're not , that's all I need to know .

Hello Ronald.

You stated, "Was Jesus filled with the Holy Ghost/Spirit? When Jesus was baptized what happened? None of the gospels clearly state that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit before His baptism Luke 2:40 is close but not affirmative. Why would Jesus need to be full of the Holy Ghost/Spirit? Philippians 2:5-8. Was Jesus the Messiah the Anointed One? Luke 4:18 Acts 10:38"

But my query is: Was Jesus baptized with the Spirit during His water baptism (or before that)?

I don't have a clear view on that, because a couple of scriptures seem to say a different thing.

The first is Luke 4:1, "And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,", also John 3:34, "For he (Jesus) whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.".

But then again in Acts 2:32-33, it says "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received (this in greek is in the present tense) of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

The latter says that Jesus received the Spirit (the promise) after (or at) His resurrection and then started giving It to believers.

So does that mean that Jesus lost the Spirit while on the cross? But then again it says He received THE PROMISE of the Holly Ghost after His resurrection. So what was it that that He had before? Wasn't that the PROMISE? Maybe some other ministry of the Spirit? Maybe like the prophets of the Old Testament who had the Spirit ON them but not INSIDE them?

Or some other explanation exists? I Hope I haven't confused you. So what do you think?

Others are welvome to answer, too?

GBU

Nope Jesus was God the son soon as he was born..... Hebrews 1:6 When he bringeth the 1 st begotten son into the world he instructs all the angels to worship him....And unto the son he says thy throne O God is forever and ever.....God can be born via his seed the living word.....God wd be breaking the 1st Commandment if he instructs all the angels to worship his son if he were not God the Son.

......Levticus 14:4 kjv....But Jesus had to fulfill the law of Moses as to the washing of 2 turtle doves by running water....Turtle Doves are lovers like Christ and the Church.....But 1 of the Doves had to be killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird.....Jesus was our sacrificial Dove that had to be washed by running water the Jordan....Johns water baptism....Thats y the Dove descended on Jesus marking him as our Sacrificial Dove. The H.G. was showing us he is our sacrificial Dove that wd have to be washed by running water.. Johns water baptism in the Jordan ....and Killed and his blood sprinkled on the living bird the Church.

......In Song of Solomon 1:15... The 2 lovers are Christ and the Church.....And they refer to each other as having DOVES EYES...

Husbands love your wives as Christ Loved the Church and gave his life for us.....Jesus was our sacrificial Dove that gave his life for us....Simply b/c he had to fulfill the law of Moses....I come not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law of Moses...Mat.5:17 kjv

......Thus he had to be our sacrificial Dove....Thats the only reason he was water baptised.....It was not for sin as Jesus had no sin.....But he had to fulfill the law of Moses of the washing of 2 turtle doves by running water....The Jordan was running water and John was of the tribe of Levi he cd legally do this washing.....Thats y the Dove descended on Jesus as the H.G. was trying to tells us he is our sacrificial Dove....That wd have to die and his blood wd have to be sprinkled on the living bird the Church....Then the living bird was set free...

Hi Giannis,

My understanding

The questions I posted and the scripture after them were in my understanding were answering the questions, sorry if that did not make sense or if they do not answer them for you.

Was Jesus baptized with the Spirit during His water baptism or before? It was not before it was after Jesus was water baptized and come up from the water He was then anointed with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 4:1 Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit led, meaning to lead, bring, carry so the Spirit led or carried Jesus to the wilderness. It may be similar to when Philip was whisk away, Acts 8:39

John 3:34 "for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him" Measure means limited so Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit with no limits like what we see in 1 Cor. 12 the diversities of gifts no one received them all, with Jesus there was no limit to the power of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:32-33 My understanding is this part of Peter's explanation of what people were seeing. Jesus made the promise that when He went back to the Father He would ask the Father to send the Holy Ghost/Spirit to them, Luke 24:49 John 14:26 Acts 1:4-8. They were seeing God's answer to Jesus's request to send the Holy Ghost/Spirit. I hope that makes sense.

The Father could not send the Holy Ghost/Spirit until Jesus was glorified John 7:39 and that was after He was resurrected, Jesus did not need the Holy Ghost/Spirit after He received His glorified body. When the Holy Ghost/Spirit left Jesus and went back to God in heaven if it was at Jesus's death or when, I do not know.

I hope this all made sense thank you for your reply.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Ronald.

I did understand your post, but I just wanted to point out the verses in Acts 2:32-33 which seem to say something different. Thanks for your reply.

Hello Ronald.

Thanks for this clear explanation of how the 70th week was fulfilled in Jesus' time and how Daniel 9 foretold it would be. Even describing the 'people of the prince to come' that will leave Jerusalem desolate and the temple destroyed, which occurred after the 70th week in 70. A.D. by the Roman army.

I concur with your analysis. sometimes the simplest interpretation is the likely correct one (Occam's Razor). I do not think that Daniel 9 speaks of last times, but only to a future time within the time frame given without there being any break or interruption of the sequence given (70 weeks-490 years from the time that the decree went forth-457 B.C. - 33A.D. = 490 years). I do not believe, as the dispensationalists teach, that the prophetic clock stopped when the Jews rejected Jesus at the 69th week, only to start up again in the end times. I do not see this taught anywhere in Scripture. Thus, I do not think that Daniel 9 was prophecy for the time of Christ's second coming, rather, I believe it speaks to His first coming only.

Hi GiGi,

Thank you, this is a subject I feel is important mainly for those who are here when it starts. If the last week of Daniel 9 is in the future, as taught the Church will be taken out and spared the tribulation coming with the beast, which sounds great. If this last week has been fulfilled in the past many will be looking for something that is not coming. How will it affect the faith of those who were not looking to be here? Those like me who are up in age may not even be here. we will be just waiting for resurrection.

God bless,

RLW

Brother Ronald:

I too am way up in age.

Why do you believe you are going to lay in the grave and wait for the second resurrection?

Why do you not believe you were resurrected with Christ, at the first resurrection?

Revelation 20:5-6

Hi Landry,

My faith is in Jesus and He died and rose again being the Firstfruits of those who slept, and through Jesus's resurrection, I have the hope and promise of eternal life with Jesus. Death in scripture is sleep with no knowledge of time or anything. I do not believe in the immortal soul, so when I die I will sleep in the grave until I am resurrected into a new immortal, incorruptible body.

What is your understanding of resurrection and why do you say in the second resurrection?

God bless,

RLW

Brother Ronald:

I will give you some of the scriptures that says we died on the cross with Christ and were raised with Christ, the first resurrection.

2 Corinthians 5:14 .... that if ONE died for ALL,then were all DEAD.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are DEAD, and your life is hid with Christ IN God.

Romans 6:6 ....our old man is CRUCIFIED with him .......

Galatians 2:20 I am CRUCIFIED with Christ: nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in ME .....

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised US UP TOGETHER ......

Isaiah 26:9 Thy DEAD men shall arise, TOGETHER with my dead body shall they ARISE ....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION .....

God bless you

Ronald,

I remain puzzled as to your belief that the soul of a true believer is not immortal, i.e. has everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at HOME IN THE BODY we are ABSENT FROM THE LORD:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY and to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

So, if when the body of a true believer goes into the grave when they die, how do you understand 2 Corinthians 5:8? What does it mean to be "absent from the body and present with the Lord". Is God lying to us here?

And then, what does it mean to be Born Again? In what part of our existence are we Born Again? Certainly not in our body until the last day when we receive our resurrected spiritual body.

Then we have the passages that talk about Christ bringing all of the believers with him when he returns at the last day.

I do certainly agree that if someone dies unsaved, both their body and soul die and they cease to have conscious existence. But we are talking here about true believers that have been BORN AGAIN. So what happens to their soul both at the time that God "saves" them, and when they die physically.

I'm sorry to say, Ronald, that we seem to have a very different understanding of what it means to be "saved". And I am unaware of the scriptures that would teach your understanding.

And I think that is not an incidental and unimportant difference in any sense.

May God lead us into truth as we Compare scripture with scripture.

Hi David0921,

I am sorry you are puzzled, many people believe when we die our souls are immortal and go to heaven or hell and some like me believe our soul is not immortal and that we sleep in death in the grave, and As you said you believe unsaved people's soul dies with the body. Remember all will be judged saved and unsaved. What we think happens to us when we die does not change how we are saved and how we live our lives whether we walk in the Spirit or the world.

Like me, my understanding is there is no knowledge or time in death so when I die, it will be like waking up from sleep in my bed, but I will have a new glorified body.

2 Cor. 5:7-9 my understanding is we are buried in this body and will not be absent from it until the resurrection. Our faith in Jesus we know, Jesus died and rose from the dead, His promise is we will also rise in our new body like His and we will then be with Him and our obedience is evidence of our faith, we will be accepted of Him.

We are mortal/earthy 1 Cor. 15:42-47 When we are baptized with the Holy Spirit, our soul does not become immortal we receive an earnest, that is a downpayment until the redemption of the purchased possession, the resurrection Eph. 1:13-14 2 Cor. 5:4-9 This is when we will put on immortality 1 Cor. 15:51-55 we sleep in death until that day when we put on immortality. 1 Thess 4:13-15 This is about the resurrection of those who are asleep/dead.

This is a small example of my understanding please don't be puzzled, study for your understanding. Our different understanding of this does not change how we are saved, hope this helps.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald , this is my understanding also and all the members of my congregation believe that same thing . We have come to this conclusion through reading the entire Bible . I understand that others believe differently and their beliefs don't upset or annoy me , we are all on a journey and all will be revealed in the best days to come . Christ is Christ , God is God , the same yesterday and today and tomorrow . I don't think less of others if their beliefs are a bit different to mine , we can still converse , uplift and learn from each other , I hope :) .

Ronald,

Thank you for your response. I'm certainly not judging you personally. That's God's business, not ours in anyway.

When I read all of the verses that apply to the nature of our salvation, what it means, to be born again, and all the passages that speak of Christ's return, and the Rapture of the Last Day, I can't make what you're saying fit.

So I'm just going to leave it there With the hope that God will lead us both into truth, as we continue to compare scripture with scripture.

Hey David,

I did not take what you posted as judging. May the Spirit of truth leed and guide us.

God bless,

RLW

Brother Davido921:

I know your question was to Brother Ronald, but I also believe the soul is mortal, the soul is just your body.

You also contradicted yourself in your comment.

You ask Brother Ronald how he could believe your soul IS NOT immortal.

Yet latter in your comment you said: I certainly agree if someone dies unsaved, both their body and soul die and they cease to have conscience existence.

IMMORTALITY cannot DIE.

Ezekiel 18:4 ... the soul that sinneth, IT (the soul) SHALL DIE ....

If the soul were IMMORTAL it could not DIE.

God bless you

You wrote " the soul is just your body".

That is what the Word of GOD says - Leviticus 17:11&14.

The soul is the own existence, it is the life, and the life(soul) of the body is the blood, so the blood is the soul.

Paul Apostle in his epistle to the Church of Corinthians, said: 1 Corinthians 15:50KJV - Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood(soul/life of the body) cannot inherit the kingdom of GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Dear Oseas,

The Leviticus 17 verse you quoted does not say that the soul is in the blood. It says that life is in the blood of the flesh. if one were to give blood and too much blood was drained from the body while still alive, a person would die because the blood loss would rob the body of life-giving oxygen, nutrients, and other substances necessary for the body to stay alive. We could breath all we want while the blood is being drained but oxygen from the lungs will soon be unable to be carried to the rest of our body, especially our brain, and breathing will cease and death would follow as the heart stops beating from lack of oxygen to trigger the automatic muscle contractions needed to pump the blood.

So, the soul is different from the blood. It is not a physical part of our being, but a spiritual. Death releases the soul from our body, and we spiritually enter the abode God determined for the soul of the dead to live until the resurrection. I think, like David that the soul of a believer goes to heaven to be with Jesus there. But unlike David, I believe that the soul of the unbeliever goes to a place without Christ to suffer turmoil. Each soul of the believers and the unbelievers will re-enter our resurrected bodies at Christ's return to be glorified with our bodies.

Hello GiGi

Just for information.

Actually the Hebrew text says that "the soul of the flesh is in the blood",[ki nphsh ebshr bdm ---that soul-of theflesh intheblood, Hebrew Intelinear Bible]. The Septuagint says the same [he psyche(soul) pases sarkos haima(blood) autou esti(is)--- the soul of every flesh is its blood" which is slightly different].

BUT it is always interpreted (even in modern Hebrew and Greek) as "life".

Also I agree with what you posted.

GBU

Hi Giannis,

Thanks for the information. I think that using the word for soul in the Hebrew text indicates the Hebrew belief that the soul and body are unified and thus when the body dies, so does the soul, especially if they did not believe in an afterlife.

GiGi,

Oops. The earlier reference should be 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.

Hello GiGi,

I wonder if you might explain your understanding of the following verses.

3 Corinthians 5:6-8

2 Thessalonians 4:13-17

Jude 14,15

1 Corinthians 15 Particularly 1 Corinthians 15:50-54

Are these passages not teaching that when a True Believer dies, their BODY dies, i.e. "sleeps" and goes into the grave and their SOUL, in which they have been BORN AGAIN, goes to be present with the Lord in Heaven.

And are they not teaching that when Christ returns at the Last Day, He will come "on the clouds of glory"along with the Resurrected SOULS of those saints that have died before to be reunited with their Resurrected Spiritual BODIES and caught up, i.e. Raptured along with those saints still living who will be changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye".

But if the SOUL of a Believer dies along with their BODY, what does in mean to be BORN AGAIN and given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment?

How else would you reconcile these and other passages that teach us about what happens to the True Believer when they become "saved". And what happens on the Last Day in the Resurrection and Rapture of the True Believers?

I have no other solution than what I just said.

David, I interpret those verses as you do. I was pointing out in my post that Hebrew thought )in the Old Testament) on this matter

did not acknowledge the eternal existence of the soul after death.

Oseas:

Read Leviticus 7:

You will see the soul is not the blood, but the body.

God bless you.

Vayikra (Leviticus) ToraH - Chapter 17:14

... "for the soul of any flesh is its blood" ...

In my understanding, the Word of GOD never contradicts itself, agree?

AMEN Oseas"

The word CANNOT contradict itself:

Leviticus 7 is talking about the flesh; the body, not the blood.

Leviticus 7:20-27

.... even the SOUL that eateth the fat of the beast .... even that SOUL it shall be CUT OFF (done away with) .... Prophecy ... This flesh (and blood) is going to be done away with: only the Spirit (God) will remain.

You are correct; the life of the flesh, is the blood: but the blood is not the soul ..... the Spirit of God has raised Christ: the life is no longer the blood; but Spirit (God).

Can blood eat the fat or the beast?

God bless you

Hello Landry

You said : >>> Leviticus 7:20-27 .... even the SOUL that eateth the fat of the beast .... even that SOUL it shall be CUT OFF (done away with) .... Prophecy ...

but the blood is not the soul ..... Can blood eat the fat or the beast?

Hello Lndry

Amen. Greetings in Christ JESUS

Honestly, I'm not discussing, my point is to search Truth, for me what matters and prevails is the Truth, our GOD is the Truth, the Word is GOD, self-executing.

You commented: Leviticus 7:20-27>>>.... even the SOUL that eateth the fat of the beast .... even that SOUL it shall be CUT OFF (done away with) .... Prophecy ... This flesh (and blood) is going to be done away with: only the Spirit (God) will remain.

Can blood eat the fat or the beast?

No Mr. Landry. There was no contradiction. I was making a distinction between the soul of someone who had become "saved", Born Again. And someone who had not been "saved". The eternal condition of the soul is very different in the two cases.

Also, I have not seen a response from you regarding the very specific questions regarding your beliefs that I posed to you. Perhaps you could share that.

Brother David0921:

Is the soul spirit or flesh?

If it's flesh it's not immortal.

If it's Spirit it does need to be saved, Spirit is God, God is the ONLY one that has IMMORALITY.

Spirit CANNOT sin.

Flesh can sin.

Ezekiel 18:4 ... the soul (flesh) that sinneth, it shall die .....

1 Timothy 6:16 Christ ONLY has immortality ......

So how do you have IMMORALITY when the word says Christ ONLY has IMMORALITY.

Your SOUL DIE with Christ on the cross, ONLY Christ AROSE.

God bless you.

Mr. Landry

What you are saying is not what the Bible teaches.

Mankind was created with both a BODY and a SOUL. Our Body is flesh and bones and blood. Our Soul is the spirit essence that dwells within our physical body. Animals do not have a Soul; they have the breath of life as does mankind, but they do not have a Soul, only mankind does. While our Our Body and our Soul are very distinct elements, they combine to make up who we are as a complete personality while we are still living in our Body.

Adam and Eve were created with a Body and a Soul and in the "Image" of God. They were created sinless but with the capacity to sin, that is to disobey God. They were created with eternal life, but that life was CONDITIONAL. Had they not disobeyed God, they would be alive today, both in Body and Soul. But they DID DISOBEY God; and at that moment they DIED SPIRITUALLY. And they were then guilty of breaking the Law of God and became subject to the penalty for breaking the Law; and that penalty is Eternal Death.

So from the moment of their sin, Adam and Eve were judged by the Law of God, found Guilty and sentenced to Eternal Death both in Body and Soul. Furthermore, because every Human Being was in the loins of Adam, we are infected by sin from the moment of our conception and birth; WE ARE BORN SPIRITUALLY DEAD BOTH IN BODY AND SOUL; and subject to the Law of God and under the penalty of that Law not only because of our condition at birth but for every sin that we would ever commit while we are living. So therefore there is no Hope for mankind unless we can find a way to satisfy the Law of God and come out at the other end. And of course mankind cannot do this since the sentence for breaking the Law is Eternal Death in Body and Soul.

But God in His Mercy and at an incomprehensible price to Himself, paid the full penalty demanded by the Law for those dirty rotten sinners whom He chose to save. And He did this to show His Glory, His Justice and His Mercy.

To be cont.

Brother David0921:

You have said numerous time that God's WORD is often a parable, study the first chapters of Genesis, it a parable, and a prophesy, you were CREATED at the resurrection.

Adam was put in a deep sleep (death on the cross) Adam was raised from the death to life and the WOMAN; Christ wife, came out of HIM, his flesh and bone: they became ONE.

God bless you

Amen to you :) .

Hi Gigi.

Thanks for joining the discussion!

Ronald blessed me with the opportunity to pick up on a subject I started a month or so ago.

I didn't think you would be interested but I remember you said you was looking forward to reading it.

While we have you engaged can you offer your time chart for the 70th week as well using Daniel 9:24-27?

I hope others join in, this may turn out fruitful.

Looking forward to hearing your point of view.

God bless.

Thanks brother S. Spencer. I believe you have understood Daniel 9:24-27 as I have, but to add a little. I realize that the "HE shall confirm the covenant with many...." (v27), is the main point of difference that comes up. The question: is the 'He' speaking about Christ or the Anti-Christ? And this question raises different answers even from renowned commentators.

From your discussions with brother Ronald, I have tried to place Christ in that verse & read it as he shared. However, it just doesn't fit there given what is written before & after. As far as what was revealed to Daniel, the Messiah will be cut off (i.e. die). Daniel doesn't know anymore about Him. So everything after the death of the Messiah, the texts given must then refer to "the prince that shall come", the people of whom (the Romans) would come first to destroy Jerusalem & the Temple.

Now we're not told when that 'prince' would come, as well we don't have any record of any individual or power confirming (or, affirming) the covenant for seven years in this interim period. This could be the Covenant already in place that Anti-Christ assures Israel will come to force, or even raising his own covenant that aligns with the old giving it sanction. However he implements it, the sacrifices & oblations that have long ceased, he will reinstate, but mid-way in his rule, he will renege on it. Not just disallowing it, but he will desecrate the Temple with his own abominations. And the mention of 'abominations' in Daniel, have always applied to wicked acts & never to Christ (e.g. Daniel 11:31: ref to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, erecting a statue of Zeus in the Temple, and Daniel 12:11: again to the Anti-Christ, where the Jewish sacrifices are removed & the abomination set up). But Daniel wanted to know more ( Daniel 12:8,9), but all was sealed till revealed at the end.

If this was Jesus in v27, when did he forcefully remove the sacrificial system? The Jews continued to sacrifice after His death & resurrection.