Bible Discussion Thread

Part 2

Stephen in his apology to the Jews among others he said, Acts 7:38, "(7) This is he(Moses), that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"

Stephen calls the Hebrews in the dessert as church. Why? Because he wanted to show to Jews that the church is not something foreign, but it is actually them. And it was them, the remnant that Paul speaks about in Romans 11:5.

Romans 11:25-27, "(25)For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (27)For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins"

Blindness in part. The remnant with the nations who now entered the Covenant became the church, God's people, as always. And at the end the rest of Hebrews will enter God's saved people, the church which is the assembly of all saved people since the begining of the world.

And lets not forget that that initial church where unimaginary miracles took place and God showed His power so often was the Hebrew christian church.

So Hebrews and nations separate? No, but together in one.

So, Dispensansional theology? For me No, Covental theology.

Jesus now reigns sitting on top of the throne of David in Heaven over the new Israel, the CHURCH. And His reign will last for ever, as it is written in the Scriptures.

GBU

Giannis,

I would add one thing. When God speaks of Israel or Jerusalem or the Church, He uses these terms both in a corporate sense and in a Spiritual sense.

"Not all Israel (all of National Israel) are of Israel (the Israel of God, i.e. all true Believers) Rom 9:6

The Jerusalem that is now (all that are in bondage to and under the law, i.e. all unsaved) and the Jerusalem above (that is free, i.e.True Believers) Galatians 4:22-26.

The Church (local churches or National Israel made up of saved and unsaved) and the Eternal Church (All True Believers) Eph 5:23-32 Heb 12-23

And this is dependent on the context.

There is no future role for National Israel with respect to God's Salvation Program. We all stand on exactly the same ground.

Agreed David 0921

Me too, David and GiGi

Hello Giannis,

If you are responding to my comment on "Dispensations". I used that term only because I do NOT hold to the view of scripture and God's Salvation and Judgment plan and End Time events held by those that would consider themselves "Dispensationalists".

As you say, the Nature of Salvation and Judgment are constant and consistent throughout the history of the world.

The Salvation of Able was exactly the same as the Salvation of Abraham and Moses and Paul and any True Believer throughout time. And every individual, regardless of national origin stands on exactly the same ground before God.

However God does operate differently during different periods of history regarding His plan for the sending forth of the Gospel. And He expands our understanding of Salvation and Judgment as He deals with and records His dealings with various individuals and Nations and the Church. This was my point.

I was using the word "Dispensations" a bit tongue in cheek for a subject that is otherwise very serious. And I probably should not have done that.

My apologies if I was not clear. But what I stated is what I believe the Bible teaches.

Hello David.

I wasn't responding to your post. But I wanted to write a short article about what is called "covenant theology". So far on this site we have read a lot about dispensationalism but nothing about the opposite belief. So I tried to make a summary of that theory so that people who haven't heard of it get to know it.

Dispensationalism declares different dispensations to different people at different times. On the other hand the covenant theology considers a continuity in God's plan to save people. As you said Israel is not national Israel (it was never meant to be, even in the OT it was the remnant) but new or spiritual Israel. The Israel of God always intended to include the other nations but that was done at a programmed time. National Israel could never understand (and accept) that. As John the Baptist told them God could make descendants to Abraham from those stones. And He did that (figuratively). When they didn't accept Jesus, from the stones, the dead matter, the dead(the nations), He did create a new people for Him. He unified the two parts of His ,always intended, people, Jews and gentiles.

In short this is what the covenant theology says. I just hope I haven't produced any confusion, it is not easy for a non English speaking person to explain that theory. So as the ancient church believed the church is the inheritor of God's inheritance to His people. But God is not ungrateful to the Hebrews. He has a special place for them in His heart for their fathers. But His salvation is not altered for them, they haven't got any superiority or previlidge compared to us as far as salvation is considered. We also know from Paul's epistle to Romans that all Israel will be saved at the very end when they will realize that the Messiah they were always expecting will not be the one they consider to be. Him is going to be the antichrist actually. So under the circumstances at the end they will turn to Him they crucified. What a touching moment that will be.

GBU