I haven't been able to get away to participate by reading the bulk of the posts and replies on the 10 commandment topic.
I would like to mention a misunderstanding in the communication between the several views on this topic.
There's a difference in the 10 commandments being Holy and being justified by keeping them.
We say Israel failed to be a witness but is that totally accurate?
How did they fail? By not keeping the law?
Before anyone answer that I would like for us to consider a few things.
1) Israel keeps the Law far better than any nation ever has!!
2) The law was given to Israel. Romans 9:4. So they had a ministry to minister to the Whole world as "fleshly" Children of an active, living, Holy God.
This ministry was called ministration of death..
2 Corinthians 3:6-9.
They were examples for us and this is written to us.
They successfully showed the world what Paul stated in Romans 7:5-14.
The world is unable to be Justified by the Law.
3) To say Israel failed for not keeping the law is not exactly correct.
They failed by thinking they were justified by the law.( Not just the 10 commandments ) after all there were articles for certain sins.
They failed because they stumbled at that stumblingstone!
That's where they failed!!
Romans 9:31-33.
They all didn't fail, there was a remnant according to the election of grace and still is.
Romans 11:4-8.
vs 5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant (ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE!)
This election is not determined by works.
In other words works wasn't elected as God's way to justify his people.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
Yes the law is Holy and we all fail to be Justified by it, so we were all dead in trespasses and sins.
Yes, "to atonement of sin GOD requires perfection", so to understand this deeply mystery of redemption then the Word of GOD takes us millennia back, i.e. to Genesis, and describes for millennia the battle between GOD and the DEVIL in the process of redemption of man through the birth of "a perfect Lamb" , our Lord JESUS Christ, who still was in the bosom of the Father.
That said, only the Omnipotence and Omniscience of GOD could provide a perfect Plan for MAN's salvation that was raptured by the Devil,even in the garden of Eden(a clue:Matt.23:35 combined with John 8:44).Having happened an usurpation of GOD's creation by the Devil, a former and superpowerful Cherub, even in the garden of Eden,then GOD Almighty made a long term Plan of works(6 Days/6 millenniums) to redeem His creation in six Days, i.e. to redeem His created man from the Devil's power, and the first step to start His Plan of restoration, was to clothe Adam and Eve decently, by a GOD's clothe, replacing the leaves of the fig tree - the clothe that was derived from the former Cherub, the Devil, the fig tree, that is the MAN of sin, the tree of good and evil.
After this, the Omnipotent GOD make the same Devil's captived Adam and Eve bring forth Abel,a keeper of sheep, and Eve was silent, and said nothing. But before Abel,was born Caim and Eve said:"I have gotten a man from the Lord".It's false, Eve lied terribly;Caim was of Devil- 1John 3:12
Satan knew Abel was GOD's seed, so he killed Abel. GOD's Plan was to seek a godly seed";Adam knew his wife again; Eve bare a son-Seth-,saying: GOD has appointed me another seed instead of Abel whom Cain slew. And to Seth there was born a son; Enos, then began men to call upon the NAME of the Lord. Genesis 5 describes the generation of the godly seed that GOD did seek until Noah, 1656 years after Adam.
Later(2080 after Adam)was born Abraham;2500 years after Adam was born Moses, the battle against Satan is more strong and intense. GOD's works continues
It's hard to believe that "1) Israel keeps the Law far better than any nation ever has!!". Will be? Maybe Sabbath day, for " whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all - James 2:10.
Isa 38:3; 1 Kings 11:4; 1 Kings 8:61; "present tense", Luke 1:5,6; they were perfect under the gospel of their dispensation. What God requires of us, is to walk uprightly according to the Truth that we know.
NT
a perfect sacrifice requires a perfect offering Matt 5:48; Rom 12:1; Perfection is required. He's the head, we're His body, is Christ sinful?
Gigi, describe perfectly the heart intent of a believer journey in the work of regeneration, except, not being able to overcome all sin. 1John 3:8; the perfect work of Grace purges out all iniquity, Titus 2:14; the littlest of leaven, leaveth the whole lump.
Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the son's of God, & the Spirit of God will never, never lead one into sin. Therefore we know by who spirit we are of; 1John 3:9,10; Matt 17:17-23
Of course, this is what we all have said in one way or another.
However, anyone who believes in Christ will imitate Him, and He obeyed the Father in all things. He kept all the commandments and did it from the heart and not only outwardly. That is what we should also do, obey God's commandments from the heart desiring to do His will and bring Him glory in bringing forth the fruit of the life in the Spirit.
It always surprises me that so many will argue against obeying God's commands because of being 'under grace'. Would any of you who advocate this viewpoint give themselves over to a life of sinful living without regard to God's revealed will in His commandments? I doubt it. Those of us who view that we should desire to obey the Decalogue and all of Christ's commandments are not negating grace in any way. We believe that one shows that they are regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit by our obedience to God by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are freed from the condemnation of the Law, but not free to disobey God without concern or a pricking of our conscience. The Bible is clear that believers are being made to be like Jesus bit by bit through obedience. We have a new mindset that believes that God's revealed will is best for us to obey as wholeheartedly as we are able in this life as a result of being saved by the Lord. We never can be perfect like Jesus, and as James said, if we keep God's commandments and sin in one of them we are guilty of all of them. But this does not mean that it is futile to desire to do so and be led by the Spirit to obedience, empowered by grace to say no to ungodliness and yes to what is good and right.
Peter speaks of not having people come against us for doing what is wrong, but for doing what is right. Our witness to others is not helped when we live in clear disobedience to what God has revealed as morally right. But when others see our godly living, they will either praise the Lord, or grumble against us.
The initial post on this topic did not say that we need to obey the commandments to be saved. So, I interpreted the discussion as pertaining to the life we live as believer, not what we must do to be saved as far as works based salvation.
Anyway, I think we have discussed this topic fairly thoroughly once again. I hope your day goes very well today. Talk with you later.
I set this post aside as a side note for the thread debating the PURPOSE for the commandments and what seems to be requirements for salvation.
Not whether they were good to follow.
I also stated Israel was given the articles of God and no one keeps those laws better than them.
My point was they weren't broken off for not keeping them, They were broken off because they stumbled over that rock of offence and chief Cornerstone. Christ!
Oseas disagreed with my assertion of Israel but we agree on James 2:10.
I said amen to James 2:10, That was more to my point.
Most of the time obediance to the commandments comes up by some individuals it's about requirements for salvation not sanctification.
See, I did not disagree of you, I only meant to remember the James 2:10's preaching.
Also Paul Apostle said: Galatians 4:22-25 and 29-30
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage(of the Enemy) with her children.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
What was the population of Israel in the time of the prophet Elijah? Million(s)? But GOD said: 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him-1Kings.19:18
1Kings 20:15 - 15 Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered ALL THE PEOPLE, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand. (The others were of the rebel Israel idolater, in Revelation synagogue of Satan, and in John 8:44, sons of ...
We should add the purpose of the Resurrection and baptism of the Holyspirit in those debates.
The Law with its sacrificial system points to Christ.
When we look at the Power of the Resurrection and baptism of the Holyspirit we find it does what the commandments couldn't do in regards to sanctification.
There's no rebirth.
There's no change inwardly.
There's no cleansing the inside the cup that the outside may be cleansed also.
We're sanctified by the Spirit of God Positionally and there is also Practical sanctification. "A new heart that desires God's precepts and there is a law written in our hearts.
We're always checking ourselves by the obedience to the commandments.
But Israel downfall was they didn't and couldn't bare fruit.
The law couldn't make them do that collectively as a nation.
But we can collectively because we're Grafted in the true/Genuine vine.
Thank you brother S. Spencer for that good pertinent word. This is indeed "where the cross comes in" - the Old Covenant with its Laws are out, as the Lord of Heaven ushers in the New ( Hebrews 8:13). And by bringing in the New, His Gift of the Spirit interprets the whole Law of God to our hearts (way beyond what was once delivered to Israel). Israel had no power to keep the Law & obey God. God had spoken directly to them, led them, kept them, & blessed them beyond imagination. But they despised the Holy One & the Law that served to bring them to brokenness, repentance & looking for a Redeemer, instead hardened their hearts towards God & ultimately to His Son.
But to those who "received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"; and "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." How God would have longed to hear His Name being passionately called upon by Israel, His very own! But to His elect, & the redeemed of the LORD, that is our constant cry & continual appeal, to a loving merciful Father Who has laid no burden upon us, but that through faith we should be saved & given power to trust His Word & obey Him. Such is the glory of the New Covenant with His Laws written in our hearts, knowing clearly what the Lord expects of us. Sorry for the rambling - I still remain amazed as to what was achieved at the Cross for us & all that we receive from Heaven ( Ephesians 1). How much more for the Jew, those whose eyes of understanding are opened & the yearning of their hearts now fully realized in Christ their Savior. Thank you for adding this to our present thoughts on this subject.
I haven't been able to get away to participate by reading the bulk of the posts and replies on the 10 commandment topic.
I would like to mention a misunderstanding in the communication between the several views on this topic.
There's a difference in the 10 commandments being Holy and being justified by keeping them.
We say Israel failed to be a witness but is that totally accurate?
How did they fail? By not keeping the law?
Before anyone answer that I would like for us to consider a few things.
1) Israel keeps the Law far better than any nation ever has!!
2) The law was given to Israel. Romans 9:4. So they had a ministry to minister to the Whole world as "fleshly" Children of an active, living, Holy God.
This ministry was called ministration of death..
2 Corinthians 3:6-9.
They were examples for us and this is written to us.
They successfully showed the world what Paul stated in Romans 7:5-14.
The world is unable to be Justified by the Law.
3) To say Israel failed for not keeping the law is not exactly correct.
They failed by thinking they were justified by the law.( Not just the 10 commandments ) after all there were articles for certain sins.
They failed because they stumbled at that stumblingstone!
That's where they failed!!
Romans 9:31-33.
They all didn't fail, there was a remnant according to the election of grace and still is.
Romans 11:4-8.
vs 5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant (ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE!)
This election is not determined by works.
In other words works wasn't elected as God's way to justify his people.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
Yes the law is Holy and we all fail to be Justified by it, so we were all dead in trespasses and sins.
This is where the cross comes in.
Ephesians 2:1-5.
God bless.
Yes, "to atonement of sin GOD requires perfection", so to understand this deeply mystery of redemption then the Word of GOD takes us millennia back, i.e. to Genesis, and describes for millennia the battle between GOD and the DEVIL in the process of redemption of man through the birth of "a perfect Lamb" , our Lord JESUS Christ, who still was in the bosom of the Father.
That said, only the Omnipotence and Omniscience of GOD could provide a perfect Plan for MAN's salvation that was raptured by the Devil,even in the garden of Eden(a clue:Matt.23:35 combined with John 8:44).Having happened an usurpation of GOD's creation by the Devil, a former and superpowerful Cherub, even in the garden of Eden,then GOD Almighty made a long term Plan of works(6 Days/6 millenniums) to redeem His creation in six Days, i.e. to redeem His created man from the Devil's power, and the first step to start His Plan of restoration, was to clothe Adam and Eve decently, by a GOD's clothe, replacing the leaves of the fig tree - the clothe that was derived from the former Cherub, the Devil, the fig tree, that is the MAN of sin, the tree of good and evil.
After this, the Omnipotent GOD make the same Devil's captived Adam and Eve bring forth Abel,a keeper of sheep, and Eve was silent, and said nothing. But before Abel,was born Caim and Eve said:"I have gotten a man from the Lord".It's false, Eve lied terribly;Caim was of Devil- 1John 3:12
Satan knew Abel was GOD's seed, so he killed Abel. GOD's Plan was to seek a godly seed";Adam knew his wife again; Eve bare a son-Seth-,saying: GOD has appointed me another seed instead of Abel whom Cain slew. And to Seth there was born a son; Enos, then began men to call upon the NAME of the Lord. Genesis 5 describes the generation of the godly seed that GOD did seek until Noah, 1656 years after Adam.
Later(2080 after Adam)was born Abraham;2500 years after Adam was born Moses, the battle against Satan is more strong and intense. GOD's works continues
I'm on agreement with what Gigi posted.
It just wasn't anything to do with my post as far as requirements for salvation.
I was thinking along the lines of Paul in Galatians 5:2-4.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
However the Scriptural examples you gave puzzles me, but I will not get into that here.
What I will like to note is you seem to be saying, We as the body of Christ with Christ being the head we can live a perfect life.
Gigi stated in her reply "We never can be perfect like Christ.
I agree with her there as well.
We are to grow in grace.
I'm sure we all agree on that.
All these things is on this side of salvation.
My initial post was that the law was not meant to give life and Israel stumbled with that.
God bless.
Thanks for your reply.
Hebrews 8 nails it.
God bless.
It's hard to believe that "1) Israel keeps the Law far better than any nation ever has!!". Will be? Maybe Sabbath day, for " whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all - James 2:10.
" whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" James 2:10.
My point exactly.
When it comes to atonement for sin God requires perfection!
No one has ever done that keeping the Law.
That's why provided us a perfect Lamb.
God bless.
NT
a perfect sacrifice requires a perfect offering Matt 5:48; Rom 12:1; Perfection is required. He's the head, we're His body, is Christ sinful?
Gigi, describe perfectly the heart intent of a believer journey in the work of regeneration, except, not being able to overcome all sin. 1John 3:8; the perfect work of Grace purges out all iniquity, Titus 2:14; the littlest of leaven, leaveth the whole lump.
Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the son's of God, & the Spirit of God will never, never lead one into sin. Therefore we know by who spirit we are of; 1John 3:9,10; Matt 17:17-23
Of course, this is what we all have said in one way or another.
However, anyone who believes in Christ will imitate Him, and He obeyed the Father in all things. He kept all the commandments and did it from the heart and not only outwardly. That is what we should also do, obey God's commandments from the heart desiring to do His will and bring Him glory in bringing forth the fruit of the life in the Spirit.
It always surprises me that so many will argue against obeying God's commands because of being 'under grace'. Would any of you who advocate this viewpoint give themselves over to a life of sinful living without regard to God's revealed will in His commandments? I doubt it. Those of us who view that we should desire to obey the Decalogue and all of Christ's commandments are not negating grace in any way. We believe that one shows that they are regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit by our obedience to God by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are freed from the condemnation of the Law, but not free to disobey God without concern or a pricking of our conscience. The Bible is clear that believers are being made to be like Jesus bit by bit through obedience. We have a new mindset that believes that God's revealed will is best for us to obey as wholeheartedly as we are able in this life as a result of being saved by the Lord. We never can be perfect like Jesus, and as James said, if we keep God's commandments and sin in one of them we are guilty of all of them. But this does not mean that it is futile to desire to do so and be led by the Spirit to obedience, empowered by grace to say no to ungodliness and yes to what is good and right.
Peter speaks of not having people come against us for doing what is wrong, but for doing what is right. Our witness to others is not helped when we live in clear disobedience to what God has revealed as morally right. But when others see our godly living, they will either praise the Lord, or grumble against us.
However I believe you are missing the point when regarding my replies.
You may want to go back and view them.
You're adding a "But" and pretty much repeat the same thing I'm saying.
We have been very clear for years on this topic. I would think you would know where we stand by now.
We're talking about requirements for Justification.
Not fruit barring.
I've even quoted Paul in Romans 7.
"The Law is Holy"
We're talking about the ungenerated heart of man under the influence of the law verses the new heart and work of the Holyspirit.
If we were under the law Christ would have came after the order of Aron.
Some of these guys that post is clear on their stance that you have to keep the 10 commandments to be saved.
They're not saying try your best!
This is why they say; No one knows they're saved until Judgment.
They're saying they don't know if they kept them well enough.
Today we are told to go out and preach the cross because we acknowledge by way of the 10 commandments we come up short of God's standards.
We're not in a discussion on sanctification, We're in a discussion on Salvation.
God bless.
The initial post on this topic did not say that we need to obey the commandments to be saved. So, I interpreted the discussion as pertaining to the life we live as believer, not what we must do to be saved as far as works based salvation.
Anyway, I think we have discussed this topic fairly thoroughly once again. I hope your day goes very well today. Talk with you later.
I set this post aside as a side note for the thread debating the PURPOSE for the commandments and what seems to be requirements for salvation.
Not whether they were good to follow.
I also stated Israel was given the articles of God and no one keeps those laws better than them.
My point was they weren't broken off for not keeping them, They were broken off because they stumbled over that rock of offence and chief Cornerstone. Christ!
Oseas disagreed with my assertion of Israel but we agree on James 2:10.
I said amen to James 2:10, That was more to my point.
Most of the time obediance to the commandments comes up by some individuals it's about requirements for salvation not sanctification.
God bless.
See, I did not disagree of you, I only meant to remember the James 2:10's preaching.
Also Paul Apostle said: Galatians 4:22-25 and 29-30
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage(of the Enemy) with her children.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
What was the population of Israel in the time of the prophet Elijah? Million(s)? But GOD said: 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him-1Kings.19:18
1Kings 20:15 - 15 Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered ALL THE PEOPLE, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand. (The others were of the rebel Israel idolater, in Revelation synagogue of Satan, and in John 8:44, sons of ...
God bless.
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection today and forever
Amen
We should add the purpose of the Resurrection and baptism of the Holyspirit in those debates.
The Law with its sacrificial system points to Christ.
When we look at the Power of the Resurrection and baptism of the Holyspirit we find it does what the commandments couldn't do in regards to sanctification.
There's no rebirth.
There's no change inwardly.
There's no cleansing the inside the cup that the outside may be cleansed also.
We're sanctified by the Spirit of God Positionally and there is also Practical sanctification. "A new heart that desires God's precepts and there is a law written in our hearts.
We're always checking ourselves by the obedience to the commandments.
But Israel downfall was they didn't and couldn't bare fruit.
The law couldn't make them do that collectively as a nation.
But we can collectively because we're Grafted in the true/Genuine vine.
God bless.
[Comment Removed]
But to those who "received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"; and "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." How God would have longed to hear His Name being passionately called upon by Israel, His very own! But to His elect, & the redeemed of the LORD, that is our constant cry & continual appeal, to a loving merciful Father Who has laid no burden upon us, but that through faith we should be saved & given power to trust His Word & obey Him. Such is the glory of the New Covenant with His Laws written in our hearts, knowing clearly what the Lord expects of us. Sorry for the rambling - I still remain amazed as to what was achieved at the Cross for us & all that we receive from Heaven ( Ephesians 1). How much more for the Jew, those whose eyes of understanding are opened & the yearning of their hearts now fully realized in Christ their Savior. Thank you for adding this to our present thoughts on this subject.
Your rambling as always has blessed me.
God bless you and everything you do.
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