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The apostle John tells us:
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
The apostle Paul tells us:
Romans 3:31
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
Romans 7:7
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
The wages of SIN is DEATH! We should not fool ourselves - Jesus didn't come here to die on the Cross so that we can KEEP SINNING! He wants us to repent and strive to live sin free. He tells us to Stop Sinning! John 5:14
The gift that God gives us in the salvation of Christ is to empower us to break free from the sin cycle, and repent of sin through conscious effort. When our own efforts fall short, His power is strong enough to help us succeed, but we must make the effort!
As Christains we should be encouraging each other to Not Sin, instead, I continually hear the opposite - stating we are sinners, and we can never stop sinning. That is a deafest attitude, and an assurance that we will continue to wallow in sin.
Read and Believe
Firstly I don't know anything about Quakers, I am not from America so all those churches and doctrines are almost completely unknown to me. But I got some information from the net.
So I read that one of their beliefs is a God's continuous revelation to individuals, right?
You stated, "You says, Paul was an exception to the rule? Would you please prove this by the Scriptures."
I think that this is obvious in the Bible. Although the feeling I have is that Paul was not tought the gospel by a revelation in his mind, but Jesus personally toughted him the gospel when Paul was in Arabia for 2 years, this is what Paul called "revelation". See Gal 1:15-19, pay attention to V17, what was Paul doing in Arabia?
Anyway I insist that Paul was an exception, There maybe more exceptions through centuaries, but that is not the normal way. The normal way is described in Rom 10:14-17, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
There aren't any examples in the NT about an individuals revelation, the 12, the 7 deacons, Apollos, Cornelious, Timothy, the disciples in Ephessus all of them were tought the good news by others. Paul was sent to the nations for that reason.
As I said one of the ministries in the church is that of the teacher. If God was revealing His truth to individuals directly what are those ministries for? They are of no use. I have no doubt that God uses that way in places where the Bible is not easy to find or forbidden to read, but those are exceptions, in my opinion.
Hi Friends;
As I read thru all the comments here, I said to myself, this is in itself a "wake up call" to all present. To come & try their faith, whether it be authored from God or not. Faith is a wonderous thing, it compel us to believe what we're reading & invokes a trust, in the things that we are reading is Truth. I've shared much on this present topic, as many here can witness too. It came to me as I was considering these conversations, that I haven't shared very much on how I came to receive this understanding that I now have.
1st little history from the past 15yrs, in 2008 I enter the most trysts time of my life, by 2009 my life literally disintegrated, I've started seeking the Lord with all my heart, soul, & strength, literately. I said to God, for once in my life I wanted to live wholly for the Truth that I then perceived was Truth. & so I did, gathering all sorts of present day books in a hope that they would help me. The hopes of my heart was to be set free from the sins & to know God, experientially. I read these Scriptures & knew that God who calls Himself the Word, would surely chose His words carefully in disclosing His heart & mind to us, I too, like Dan am a simple minded man. By Aug 2009 I enter ministry school with great expectations toward my hopes. I lived a fasted lifestyles, separated myself from frivolous conversations & fellowships. I took notice that were I was at, there was much lusty sinfulness happening here, more then were I had come from. In Jan 2010 I set myself to a complete fast, quit ministry school in which all my hopes were, & gave myself to Him. There was at present a war raging within me until the 3rd day, on the 4th morning I awoke in peacefulness, pickup my computer & there was a icon, saying false grace v true grace, so I click it. It led me to the writing of the people in scorn called Quakers, specifically between 1645 to 1700's.
What they declared in their writing awaken the Witness within me, bearing witness to the truth of their writing with the proof, in their exercises of the Truth that God was please to bring them through for His eternal glory.
One of God's minister among them was William Penn, founder of Pennsylvania; He wrote a book, No Cross, No Crown, the first 8 chap gave me valuable spiritual insight in what it means to pick up the Cross, & following Jesus. I've started exercising this knowledge by practicing it in everyday ordinary life circumstances & found experientially that it is Truth, the teaching are witness by the Scriptures & sound reasoning. I learned that once light/knowledge is reveal, its not possessed, but is an invitation, to be exercised & possess, mental consent to Truth is not possession, but it must be an operational faith in the Word, Abraham the father of faith clear reveals this. this is engraftment, James 1:21-24 & becomes our inheritance, this is increasing our talent, His Spirit within us.
I have come to a state where I rarely read there writings, & dare not pick up a concordance, which in this transition from one state to present, God literally rebuke me for during so. He is my Teacher etc; an increasing becoming my all in all, I'm free from my sins that so easily captivated me to Satan will & now on my way to receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that will thoroughly purge the threshing floor of my heart, discarding what chaff is remaining & to be gather to the Gardner, by abiding in the Vine. For I have learned from years of personal experience that without Him I can do nothing. Meaning being led by His precious Spirit, which is the foundation of their teaching. John 3:27
Seek Him who is within you, No Cross No Crown is a revelation on this very important endeavor in our freedom from sin & to truly know God, the way He desires to be known.
ps; its important to remember in these conversations, that 2 Cor 10:3-5 Ephesians 6:12
Thanks for your input, on this topic: Are We Addicted to Sin.
I sincerely appreciate your presentation of pertinent scripture regarding sin and our ongoing obedience to God, and your well reasoned logic directed at some of issues required of us to work toward achieving a sin free life in God at some point. I will admit, it is hard, but not impossible! Matt 17:20 It is hard in the sense that in order to do so - we can't continue to live in our current worldly lifestyle, and we can't continue to to tell ourselves and others Satan's lie: that we can't stop sinning. If we are to pick up our Cross and follow Christ it will certainly require worldly lifestyle changes, and a positive change in our thinking, and total acceptance of the scriptures like 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9, so we can't just remain in denial and just dismiss these scriptures!
Also, thanks for sharing your personal testimony and life experience's leading you to ministry school, and your ongoing and continuing struggle for the truth, as it applies to God, Faith and sin. I believe you also understand our need to be obedient first, and I believe we can agree "it requires our total obedience to know God and the Holy Spirit" and in so doing, we learn to obey His words, please Him and really know Him. Rom 12:2 Philippians 2:12-16
Thanks for the book reference, No Cross-No Crown. I will certainly look forward to reviewing it.
GBU
its very true what you have stated here, concerning separation from the world,
you may find the book freely available on the web under No Cross No Crown project gutenberg
be waiting to hear from you
Blessing
Then you go on to state: " But the fact remains that we can never be free from sin in this life" You are telling others here exactly what I was stating in my previous post: That Christains are reinforcing the idea - that we can never be free from sin! This is the defeatist attitude that most Christains (including myself) have accepted over the years, and by continuing to embrace this, it seems to me we are dooming ourselves to sin, when in fact Jesus tells us we can overcome sin.
1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
So, do we believe other Christains telling each other that we will always be living in sin because we can't possible ever be sin free, or do we believe Jesus when He tells us we need to stop sinning, also scripture above "whosover sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Do we really know God if we continue to sin? If we don't believe that we can truly stop sinning and work toward that goal with the help of Gods Holy Spirit - we will need to disregard all of the scripture like this.
You state: "I've not met anyone who genuinely believes that he/she has reached that state & is now sinless". There are over 2.5 Billion Christains in the world today. You may not have met anyone that you know that would be living sin free, but don't you think it is possible that there may be some Christains out there in the world that may be living sin free. Something to think about.
Regarding 5:14 & John 8:11 Jesus said stop sinning. Sin is Sin. He didn't say stop committing adultery or any other specific sin - so we have to believe when when he spoke to the adulteress and the invalid - He said: stop sinning - it means all Sin!
GBU
Hence every letter by the apostles, even the apostles themselves, were conscious of sin at their heart's door & that freedom from giving into sin cannot be found in this life. Paul's account in Romans chapter 7 is very telling. After writing about his deliverance from the Old Law which revealed his sin & led to death (vv 5,6), he now served God in "newness of spirit" (i.e. in his born again spirit). Yet, he lived in the flesh & in the flesh "dwelleth no good thing (v18); he delighted in God's Law, but he could not get away from the other law that worked in his members (flesh) (vv 22,23). And this other law continued to draw him into sin (vv 19,20). And so he sums up his predicament in v 25, that "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin". Paul knew his battle was continual & he would have failures, but he took heart that though the flesh which cannot be renewed in this life as his spirit could, he would still fail God & sin, but in his spirit & great desire, he persistently pursued God's Will to live for Him & please Him. Did Paul ever reach that state of sinlessness, as you suggest that Christians can achieve? He might have longed for it, as we all should, but the reality of it is that sin will always make its appeal, & we will sometimes fail. Onto Page 2.
And what if we only speak to others of aiming to be sin-free and not the reality of a life where sin will always make an entrance? - what happens to them when they can't, losing their battles, getting depressed for failing their Lord? We're then left with greater tragedies by lives defeated & utterly confused. If being sinless can be a present reality, then yes, it must be taught. But nowhere in the Bible I read it as you suggest.
1 John 3:6. In the Greek, the verb applying to 'the one who abides in Him, 'sinneth' not', is what I understand as a 'present indicative active' verb. That is, the verse declares that the person who is truly abiding in Christ is not a person presently behaving in a sinful condition, or continuing in sin. Not that he is sinless, but when sin is committed, he is dealing with it & not entertaining it. The hallmark of those NOT 'in Christ', is that sin is of no consequence & if the conscience is affected, he will deal with the matter in his own way, in his own time. However, for the true believer, any sin has to be immediately identified as that which is against the Will of God & must be dealt with accordingly. There is no suggestion in this verse that the one in Christ no longer sins. GBU.
I presented you with the verse below and you state: "There is no suggestion in this verse that the one in Christ no longer sins."
You seem to be grasping for ways to explain away the TRUE MEANING of this very simple verse!
1 John 3:6
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
It is very clear: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not"
I'm a simple minded man, and this verse is very clear to me, that God is telling us if we are abiding in Him/God - we will not be committing sin!
God tells us it is impossible to abide in Him - and sin at the same time. If we are sinning we are Not abiding in HIM - we are abiding in Satan.
Also, continuing
1 John 3:7-9
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
"he cannot sin, because he is born of God"
Again Chris, these verses are a "wake up call" to all Christains, including myself, that we can't keep sinning - and serve God at the same time. It's one or the other.
GBU
1 John 3:9, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Also 1 John 3:6, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
BUT the above verses seem to be in contadiction to what is written earlier on, ie 1 John 1:8-9, "8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
So what is wrong? The former verses say that we dont (and can't) commit sin BUT the latter says that if we say we don't commit sins we are liars.
This is one of the few points in the Bible that the grk makes the difference. The grk doesn't say that we don't commit sin but we don't keep doing sins (in grk "amartano"), i.e. we don't live a sinful life, we don't stay in sinning. It is not a present continuous like we are continuously doing something but it shows that something is done regularly in the present without any stop. Since there is nothing respective in English, the nearest we can come to is the simple present that the KJV iuses. But it gives a different understanding.
GBU
Thanks for your response regarding the your comparison of the scripture 1 John 1:8-9 in contrast to 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9
I see no contradiction in 1 John 1:8-9 as you state. Why? John is talking to unbelievers/unsaved. Please read from the beginning 1 John 1:1-10 in the entirety. John is talking to unsaved unbelievers currently walking in darkness. He is inviting them to join him and other Christians to walk with God. A key verse:
1 John 1:3
"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
John states: That which we (Believers) have seen and heard declare we unto you (unbelievers) That ye (unbelievers) also may have fellowship with us (believers) and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
In 1 John he is telling those unbelievers walking in darkness 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." John was an unbeliever prior to being saved so he is telling them that we were all sinners and if we don't admit it - then the truth is not in us.
Once we accept Christ and we are saved we are supposed to walking with God and striving to follow Christ and this includes overcoming sin. Hence, the scripture 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 targeted at those who are Christians who are to be following God's commands. We can't follow God and the devil simultaneously, and this is what God is telling us. It's one or the other!
GBU
If the belief that a beleiver does not commit sin any longer after they have been born again and saved, then how do you explain:
1. Matthew 12:43-45, "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."
2. How do you explain the parable of the prodigal son.
3. How do you explain the 5 unwise virgins that were left out of the marriage.
In your answer you said that 1 John 1:8-9 is for unbelievers. But in 1 John 2:1 it says, "MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin (because this will be eventually done sometime), we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
In verses 8-9 it says, "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." Pay attention that HIS BROTHER, then it says that i he hates him then he stays in darkness. That means that it is possible to hate his brother, hence doing a sin. And that is for a believer.
GBU
I started this post entitled: Our Addiction to Sin - for a reason. I was hoping I would hear from others here that despise sin, as much as Christ/God does, up to this point - I found only one.
Everyone else states the current Christain status quo, we can never stop sinning. So it doesn't matter That God tells us we can't sin and walk with Him, 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 Jesus tells us we must stop sinning, dies on the Cross so that we can be forgiven - if we simply ask Him, but the catch is - we also need to repent. Christains really like the forgiveness part of the equation, but what we convienatly forget is the repent part, as evidenced by the stubbron resistance to making a life commitment to stop sinning. How would we like to hear Christ tell us He can't give us eternal life. We are adamant that God should keep his commitment to us, but we do not feel we have to follow his Laws, and Commands! We want to pick and choose which of God's laws we can conviently accomodate into our worldy lives, and find excuses/doctrine to ignore/dispose of the rest. How convenient for us, a win-win for us. Really?
Giannis, in my last post to you, you asked, and I explained 1 John 1-10 to you, and now you are bringing up more scripture and parables to try and justify your belief that Christians can sin and walk with God at the same time - when God and Jesus tell us throughout the scripture that we need to stop sinning. Jesus tells us point blank to stop sinning or something worse will happen to us. If we think we are walking with Christ and bad things are happening to us shouldn't we want sit up - and take notice of this verse. John 8:11
I'll tell you the same thing that Jesus told the Pharisees Mark 11:29 answer my question here, and then I will answer your additional questions.
Who would want to convince Christian's that they can continue to sin - and still walk with God?
I do understand where you want to come to. This is actually what John tell us in 1 John 2:1-2.
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."
It is clear that John asks us not to sin. But then he moves on,
"And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:".
Why? Because we still have a sinful nature and we CANNOT overcome sin. It is not that we don't want to but often we haven't got the ability to win against sin. There is a difference between God and people, God is not tempted at all (because His nature is so), but we, people, are tempted (because our nature is so) and fail. Let me give you an example. When I was a smoker, I had reached a point that I wanted to quit, so I decided to stop smoking, but in practise I realized that I couldn't manage to stop it. So it was a matter of capability, not a matter of decision. You may say that we are given the Spirit (or grace) of God to win sin. The Spirit is a "helper", He has not transformed our nature, it still remains a human nature with all the disadvantages that come with it.
Brother, as far as I am concerned, I am in the faith for more than 20 years and if the belief that a christiam must not sin at all is right then I have failed badly, and not only me but my wife, my relatives, all the other christians I know, everybody really. Because I don't think I have met so far somebody that claims that they don't sin at all.
And something else. It is not right that some christians sin easily, they don't even try to resist. One must be strict to them. On the other hand there are christians that whatever they do, they feel guilty and blame themselves all the time because they think they never please God with their life and behavior. The belief of "not doing a sin at all" will place such a heavy load on their shoulders that they will eventually collapse. A christian should feel joy, it is a fruit of the Holly Spirit, and not guilt all the time.
GBU
1John 2:1 but then he moves on: 1John 3:9
You say, because we have this sin nature, Not if we're born again, 2Cor 5:17, His Spirit of Grace has brought us through the regeneration & renewing of the Holy Spirit unto the new creature, created in Ephesians 4:24 Col 3:10. By His Spirit of Grace, the Cross, the old nature has been deny, mortify & finally crucify Rom 6:6,7 & We have become partakers 2Pet 1:3,4
Its very true, as you stated we, in & of ourselves we cannot stop sinning, its a hopeless situation. But with God all things are possible! Jeremiah 32:27
Jesus stated, John 7:17,18 Meaning; if one is practicing in their lives the doctrines of faith they believe & its not having the results the Word of God clearly states, then their doctrine & faith is not of God & their speaking of themselves.Their faith is not Hebrews 12:2 Matt 7:14
Friend anyone who would not be prejudice, can perceive that throughtout the Scriptures God is calling His people to be holy.
He kick Lucifier out of heaven when he sinned, He put Adam & Eve out of paradise when they sinned, He kick the nation of Israel out of the promise land when they continue sinning. Do you really believe He's going to allow anyone into His holy Kingdom that's a sinner? Especially now that He has sent His Son, if He was going to allow sin into heaven, Jesus could have avoided that horrible humiliation & vicious suffering at the hands of ungodly men.
No, my friend, sinners will not enter the kingdom of God, it not happenning,
Last par; HEAVY LOAD ON THEIR SHOULDERS, it an evident token that they have not come to the True Jesus Matt 11:28 because He's the John 1:29
I kindly request that you read No Cross No Crown William Penn, Chap 1-8 & serious consider what discover in these pages.
freely on the net, No Cross No Crown project gutenberg
in love & truth
Let me give you an example. If you have a car that goes top speed 100 miles per hour and you put your foot on the pedal expecting to go 150 and you keep pressing your foot on the pedal, the only thing you will get at the end is to burn the engine, it will never go 150. We have limits all of us. Yes we must lengthen our limits/broaden our hearts but they will always exist.
Yes God has made us partakers of His Spirit. Which means that He gave us a means to grow spiritually and produce a fruit in our lives. But that Spirit has not transformed our nature. We are still human. Have you ever thought why we will be sinless in Heaven? We don't know really, do we?. Some say because of the new body we will be given. But satan has got no flesh but he still sinned and is still sinning although his is a spirit. So the sin does not only originate from the flesh, but it originates from our spirit as well.
My assumption is that we will be sinless because we will have God's Spirit with no measure, like Jesus had it. The presence of God inside us will be infinite and will not allow any sin coming inside us. But in this life we have the Spirit partially. (Well this is just thoughts, we don't really know). If God wanted to make us perfect in this life, He would had done it in a split second, But He didn't and He will not. We have to wait untill we enter our heavenly country.
Well some thoughts of mine. Blessings.
James 5:16, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
1 Timothy 6:12, "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."
Just one question. Personally are you in a sinless state? And when I say "sinless' I mean that you never sin? Have you reached such a stage in your spiritual life?
The definition of a "sinner" can be either:
1. someone who lives a sinful life.
2. Someone who strives to live holly but he fails sometimes, then repends, asks for forgiveness and washes himself with Jesus Blood.
Both the above are sinners, in the sence that people in both categories do sins. But who is considered by God as a sinner? Definetely not the second case. Why not? Because they cleaned (and are continously cleaning) themselves from the sins they do and so they are considered by God as "righteous" So they are eligible to enter Heanen. This is anyway what the gospel is all about. If it were about being sinless just because we are given the Spirit of God so to avoid doing sins, then what was the reason that Jesus sacrificed Himself? Only to clean us from what we had done till we were born again?
New birth. Regeneration and new creation/new birth do not mean a sinless state by no means.
Old natute. When the Bible talks about "the old man" does not mean old nature but it means the sinful person we were before getting to know Christ, the "new man" is the man that strives to live holy.
Often christians, especially the ones who are new in faith, due to an ignorance of God's Word put a big load over their shoulders. I used to be one of them. Although they strive to live holy, they are never pleased with themselves and think that God doesn't approve them. Why? Because they think that they should never fail any more, as if that was ever possible. They expect too much from themselves (more than God does). This is called "weak consciousness" in my language. And that origininates either due to an ignorance of the Bible, since they are new in faith, or due to their character.
Go to part 2.
Hi Friend
There's two stages that we may obtain too in the work of regeneration, 1st to the state Adam was before the fall, then as we continue steadfast, faithful & confident unto the end, in exercising the Grace that brings salvation, He brings us into the 2nd state of being in Christ who never sin, although He was tempted. This show us that being tempted is not a sin, only in our submission to it.
I'm presently in this 1st stage & have fallen,
Sanctification is a progress work, & as we continue to exercise Grace appearance in our hearts. Hebrews 9:28 Rom 10:10 the wording of Scripture is "unto salvation", denoting this on going work. Philippians 2:12 There is no instant salvation! There will be encounter with the Lord, where His Spirit deals mighty within us, tearing down the strongholds of thoughts & imaginations that keeps us in bondage & separated from Him, this a part of the ongoing work of salvation.
About the 2nd case, I think I was clear that I mean people who fail during their strive to follow God's commadements and then repend and clean themselves. Do you still consider them sinners?
Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.".
You stated that the incorruptible seed is Christ. But I read it means the Word of God. See the next 2 verses, ie 24,25. "24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
Pay attention to v25, "AND THIS WORD WHICH BY THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED TO YOU." so it means literally the Word of God, not Christ. Christ is often called the Word because through Him The Word of God was revealed to people. But not in any case that we read Word we assume that it talks about Jesus, it is about literally the Word of God.
About the rest you have written, I am sorry I can not follow you, because I think you try to join things together using verses that, to me, are irrellevant, ie you use Rom 12:1-2, which says about renewing of our mind by the Spirit as new birth, I don't see it like that. Again Gal 3:2, Matt 9:29, to me, they have nothing to do with us having the Spirit partially of fully.
Anyway Frankie thanks for your reply. Don't take my answer as offensive. Just my beliefs are different from yours. Thanks. GBU
Quoting you;
Pay attention to v25, "AND THIS WORD WHICH BY THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED TO YOU." so it means literally the Word of God, not Christ, etc"
Isa 49:8 "for a covenant to the people"
1 Pet 1:23, says 'LIVETH & ABIDED FOR EVER" the Scriptures are the words of God that became the letter from what the apostles lived, wrote & preach from under the inspiration of the Spirit. 2Cor 3:4-6 The letter of any dispensation kills, it the Spirit along that gives Life, 1Cor 15:45
Paul says, Gal 1:12, but came by Rom 10:17 that was in his Rom 10:8 this is Word of Faith, the gospel that he preached.
He received it by the Grace of God that appears in his heart, bringing him & the rest the Word of Salvation.
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ in every heart, Christ preaching the Gospel to them diffusing the fragrance of His knowledge, to those who believe it becomes an aroma unto life, to the unbelieving an aroma unto death.
The incorruptible Seed by which we maybe born again, if received & no one is born again until they received Him in this manner of His spiritual appearances within their heart.
Jesus takes personal responsibility of us, to teach us Himself in the way that He, Himself live, walk & overcame all the temptations of the devil,. It's the Good News that the angel proclaim to the Sheppard's. Hebrews 1:2 Spoken unto us through His Son, the 1John 2:27
1Pet 1:24 is man preaching the incorruptible words of God, which in his human wisdom, learning & knowledge he contradicts, for he neither knows them because he doesn't obey them, although he professes them 1John 2:3-6
Friend, I understand were your coming from, this way of believing & living, at one time turn my world upside down.
Acts 17:6 I've had always been dull of hearing & slow of heart to believe all the Holy Spirit ever spoke to me. Now I am paying attention, as for as offenses, I'm dead to that part within me. 2Cor 10:3 . Ephesians 6:12 who seek to rule in the hearts & minds of mankind.
Do you attend a congregation or you study on your own? No offence meant but what you say sounds a bit strange to me.
Question. Does the Holly Spirit teaches personally everyone of us? Yes and no. Yes in the sense that He often opens up the scripture for us, gives us understanding of verses, reminds us of scripture and so on. No in the sense that I can stay home, read my Bible and learn the truth.
In Ephessians 4:11-13, Paul describes the ministries that should exist in every church,
"11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
So I think it is clear that Jesus anoints people to teach His Word, we need teachers filled with the Spirit of God to teach us His Word. This is not a man's work. It is God's work.
Paul was an exeption. The way he was tought the gospel is not an example for all of us. Those are exeptions, the rule is that we get tought the gospel by others.
Again you confuse the person Jesus with the spoken or written Word of God. To me they are different things. When the seed comes in our heart when we hear the gospel and the soil is good (soft, good heart) then this seed produces in us (with the aid of the Holly Spirit) repentance for the sins we have done and a decision to start a new pure life with Jesus, consequently a new birth occurs. The phrase "Jesus comes in my heart" should be taken figuratively,. It means that I accept His Word in my open heart which Word will produce a fruit.
GBU
1 John 2:19 Ephesians 4:14 these apostates took over the ministry of Christ, the Gifts, Ephesians 4:11 & has raise of a ministry & sanctuary that of this world, all saying here is Christ & there is Christ. All in the lust 1John 2:16 some more some less, but a little leaven, leavens the whole lump, there are over 45,000 different favors/sect's of Christianity world wide, is Christ divide?
The Church in is first pure innocent primitive state Acts 4:32 fulfilling Ephesians 4:12,13, & would have remain so, excepting for God in His infinite Wisdom choses otherwise, Rev 13:7
The work of the Ephesians 4:11 first is to point them to Christ within them, their Isa 9:6, then to become servants to His Body, the Church. John 13:13-16, then at the appointed time of the Father, proving themselves faithful to the ministry they have received, Act 6:2 God gave them an increase, in rewards to their faithfulness to Him. Read on there & see the increase they received multiplied.
Jesus said, Luke 17:21 Ephesians 4:4-7 all pointing to God within them. All of this is not figuratively, but a spiritual reality to be lived, known & felt in the heart.
In Revelation we find the Spirit of the Lord is Crying out to His people Rev 18:4 connecting 2Cor 6:14-18, I ask you who will hear His Call & if required of them to sell all that he has to follow Jesus & to forsake all that he believes that's contrary to Holy Spirit teaching, Matt 7:14 For surely the teaching in Babylon is the same as the devil taught in Eden, Genesis 3, they too being evasive, twisting God's word to their own 2Pet 3:16
Consider these things, Proverbs 25:2
Friend,
You says, Paul was an exception to the rule? Would you please prove this by the Scriptures.
You says, Jesus comes into my heart, should be taken figuratively? 1Cor 3:16,17 2Cor 13:5 Col 1:27 Ephesians 2:22 Where else could He desire to be but within our heart, the seat & center of our very being. Proverbs 4:23 1Samuel 16:17
You say this sounds strange?
Consider also John 17:21-24 the oneness & unity that God desires to have with His people, this is what God has set His heart on Jeremiah 32:40,41 & made available thru the NC; this is a God, that has said, with all His heart & soul ! Come on; have a little faith.
We're heirs of God & joint heirs of Christ, it is God Himself that is our inheritance Psalms 119:57 Psalms 73:26
You says, not by one staying home & God teaching him. This is exactly what God has done through the spiritual writing of the Quakers, specifically from 1646-1700 through the gifts Christ gave His church; in their writing I discover the intent of God's heart to cleanse one from all sin, & being united with God through Christ, which the Scriptures so manifestly declares & how God accomplishes it. Isa 64:4 1Cor 2:9 Psalms 130:5 I'm talking about that Word that is Rom 10:8 that comes by 10:17 Meaning Christ spiritual appearance within conscience/heart John 1:9 Titus 2:11 Obeying His Father commands 2Cor 4:6 which is the Treasure we have in these earthen vessels. 2Cor 4:7 to know the things that are freely given to us 1Cor 2:12
A church, any church, must have solid doctrines. If anyody can claim that God reveals them something else from somebody else, then the whole thing will become a mess, as it often occurs in the the regenerated churches.
Yes God reveals His truth, He gives understanding of His Word etc etc, and we all have such an experience but the main doctrines come from the ministries not from God directly.
In 1 Cor 12"7-11 the spiritual gifts are described, V7-8, But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"
So you as you see those gifts are not for everybody, you may have them or you may not have them. You may have a ministry or you may not have a ministry.
2 Timothy 2:1-2, " Thou therefore, my son(Timothy), be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." Here Timothy is asked to teach others.
So I think you confuse the personal work done in our Spirit by God with the function that a church as a whole should have.
About that "Jesus comes in our heart". It is often said figuratively. Either that love for Jesus comes in our heart, or His Word etc.
Yes Jesus and Father and the Holly Spirit dwell in our body (not only our heart) and that is done through His Spirit, but this is a different thing from the former.
I also do believe firmly that the all the gifts given to the ancient church should exist in today's churches, there is nowhere in the Bible where it says that God put an expiring date for them, these are beliefs of churches that dropped them from their cannon and so they don't seek them and subsequently don't receive them. To me this is sad, because we drop some of the guns that God has provided to us for our spiritual fights. So we are in agreement to that. Blessings.
God has always look to the heart of mankind, Psalms 51:6 Jeremiah 17:10 Deuteronomy 30:6
The heart is the birthing room of thoughts, desires, passion, emotion, endeavors, intellect, the seat & center of our very being.
It is here that God seeks to work out our sanctification, by cleansing us from what the corruptible seed has planted within us (devil), by the incorruptible Seed, the washing of the Water of the Word, the engrafted Word, Christ, who is able to save our immortal souls. This is refer to in 2Thess 2:4 who exalts himself against the knowledge of God, the Incorruptible Seed, & who's temple we are, is to whom we obey, Rom 6:16,17 "obey from the heart", the Light / Grace that shines the glory & the knowledge of God, the Incorruptible Seed, the revelation of Jesus Christ within all the hearts & minds of mankind, brings us to the new birth, that's of the Spirit John 1:13 John 3:6, therefore we are to 2Cor 10:5,6 meaning cast the devil out by picking up the Cross & denying, mortifying & crucifying self; Rom 2:29
Firstly when I told you to pay attention was not to offend you, sometimes we go trhough scripture and we don't pay too much attention and notice things unless someone tell us
Well it seems there is a misunderstanding. I wasn't saying that God is not revealing His Word to every one of us. That is a universal experience all reborn christians have, some more, some less. But what I do say is that the main doctrines must come from the church itself. Christians are not a randomly dispersed flock, there must be an orginized churh/congregation which is the Body of Christ or at least a part of It. There is an order, God is the God of order.
If you pay atention to 1 Cor 12 in verse 7 it says, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.". TO PROFIT WITHALL, that means that the gifts should function in the church/congregation, they are not something for individual use. God has given them to someone to use them and to profit all the congregation. There are no gifts given in the sense that I get one and then I am just drifting from one place to another or just stay alone at home and still God uses me, there is no such thing. My own experience is that before I joined the church where I am still now, I couldn't understand and distinguish between many things in the gospel unless someone told me (remember the eunoch in Acts?) although I had spent time in reading and searching for the truth. Why didn't God reveal His Word personally to me and had to go to a church? And this happens to all people more or less. About you, before you joined the Quakers why weren't you revealed the truth directly by God and had to hear teachings from them? You see? God drove you to place where you were tought His Word and then He is revealing It further by your own reading. So personal revelation is supplementary to what we learn in the church. Of course there are cases of people who can not go to a church or there is no church near them. God acts accordingly.
Its very true in my experience what you stated, God open my understanding through their writing & biographies
The foundation of their teaching is the Light of God is in every human being John 1:9 & if given heed too, would lead them out of darkness into Light of Life. Once I was convince of this, by the Witness of Truth within, the Scriptures & sound reasoning, then in simplicity & sincerity of heart I started paying attention to His motions within me.
You mention the Ethiopian eunuch, in this story is a lovely example of the Spirit guidance, Philip was instructed to arise & go, he went by revelation not knowing at that moment what he was going for, Acts 8:29 Holy Spirit further open his understanding by revelation, then he preached to the eunuch by revelation. You can be sure that Philip pointed him to the Grace of God within him to be his teacher as he went back to his own country.
Peter, by revelation went to Cornelius house, not knowing what he would speak, but went as he was commanded by Holy Spirit, the Lord by revelation open up his understanding, extending His salvation to the Gentiles. & the Grace of God took over the work of salvation, in their everyday ordinary experiences in life. In conversation, past times activities, relationships etc, separating the precious from the vile in their heart.
Quoting You
There aren't any examples in the NT about an individuals revelation, the 12, the 7 etc. If not, how in the world did we get the NT, from cover to cover, its all the revelation of Jesus Christ
Friend, by the above references it appears you need to pay attention to what your reading. no offense given or taken.
1Cor 12:7; Will you allow God this liberty & right to His own Spirit of Grace within us, as well as to His gifts to the church?
One of the Quakers beliefs, Rom 8:14 a continuous revelation of God's will; correct!
This is the 2nd time you admonish me to pay attention, ok; lets look at the Scripture you refer too!
Gal 1:15-17 "call me by His Grace, to reveal His Son in me" Which is John 1:9 Titus 2:11 God spiritual appearance within him, both Scriptures says to "ALL MANKIND" so everyone has this experience, which is fulfilling 2Cor 4:6
What was Paul doing in Arabia? Living & working just like we do, its in our everyday ordinary experiences in life that God works out His great salvation, the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus within us, which is the washing of regeneration & renewing in the Holy Spirit, as we seek to be led by the Spirit of God everyday to know His holy will. Matt 6:11 the revelation of Jesus Christ, diffusing the fragrance of His knowledge in "EVERY HEART".
Friend, your missing out on your personal revelation of Jesus Christ unto you! That you may experience 1John 1: 1-4
2Thess 3:9 for them to follow their examples requires them to be enlighten & empowered by the same Power that they themselves walk in, though everyone doesn't walk in the same measure of the Power, according to their calling within His body. 1Cor12:18
This answers your opinion, what are the ministries for?
I, by no means are saying that God has not a purpose for these gifts that He has given, but they must be subjugated in their proper places. 1Cor12:25 is this case in the government structure of today's Christianity? No, by no means!
Christ is the Head, who speaks directly to the whole body. John 1:9 Titus 2:11 1John 2:27 Isa 54:13 John 16:13 Hebrews 8:10,11 which happens in our everyday ordinary life experiences in relationships, works etc; that God maybe Col 1:18
In Love & Truth
Hi Jema
I'll share a personal testimony of my experiences with God, how He open my understanding of these things that I'm writing of 1st He showed me, in the beginning with Adam & Eve, all their knowledge, & understanding that they had was what He, God Himself had given them in their fellowshipping together, they had no other thoughts, passions, desires, endeavors etc, but what was from Him. Until the devil show up & introduce another train of thought, twisting & perverting God's own words in doing so. In man obedience to him, another seed was implant in mankind heart & corrupted him.
Then Word of the Lord came to me & ask me to trust this still small Voice within conscience, I responded I couldn't do that, I didn't trust it, it always lead me to deny myself, asking me to do things contrary to my own will, which at the time I was unaware that it was the Grace of God appearance within me, the Cross. Titus 2:11-14 2Cor 4:10,11
Reading the Quaker's writing, specifically from 1646-1700 they all pointed to the John 1:9 & Titus 2:11 that appears to all mankind, it was in man, but not of man, but of God. The still small Voice that admonishes when, I thought of or did something evil & reprove me for it, at the same time if I gave thought to Him, He would show me what was right & good to do in my everyday ordinary experiences in life conversations, relationships, past time activities, what to deny or cling to in thoughts, words or deeds. As I consider what they spoke of, it align up with the Scriptures, sound reasoning & human experience, we all have these spirits operations working within us.
He further open me, I began practicing being still & quiet before the Lord & waiting upon Him, during one of these exercises, He opened my understanding concerning these 2 seeds within me, You remember the cartoon where there would be an angel on the right shoulder & a devil represent on the left shoulder of the cartoonist, the angel would encourage him to do what is right & good, & the devil influence him to what was evil & bad. Well this is what actually goes on within our hearts & who we obey is whom we serve & who temple we are, I always thought it was me, myself thinking these thoughts whether good or bad, I did not comprehend that I was just a vessel to be move & animated by these two great powers of the universe. There's no me, myself & I, it either Light or darkness animating us.
After this revelation I was convinced & start exercising this Word of Righteousness in the discerning between good & evil within. The heart is the birthing room of thoughts, as they are birth & brought forth we become conscious & aware of them. Thus Paul says 2Cor 10:3-6 Ephesians 6:12
Here is where God works out our salvation. Hebrews 12:6-11
For 27 yrs I attend church, Assembly of God, Baptist, Full Gospel, Church of Faith, etc; not one of them spoke specifically concerning these things
I searched, fasted, studied the letter, all that was available thru man in this present day Christianity. Nothing could satisfy me, set me free or remove the veil from the eyes of my heart. God is our Father, in my heart thinking I should know Him like I know my natural father, this didn't become a reality until God lead me to the writing of these Quakers of the 17th Century & as time pass & I continue to grow in Grace, the possession of this reality becomes more clearer & precious in my eyes, Blessed Him for His tender mercies & longsuffering love toward me.
God has & continues to fulfill His word to me, Isa 42:16 all by the grace & truth that came by Jesus Christ. John 1:16 John 1:9
No, my friend, I have the Witness within me bearing witness to the Truth of what I here write & have written, back up with the Scriptures & sound reasoning, sealed with the experiential personal knowledge of them that God has given me in bringing me out of the darkness into His glorious Light Act 26:18 Wherein I stand in my present measure, abiding in the Vine & being further purged that I may bring forth more fruit. John 15:2,3
This has not happen instantaneously, but a 13yr on going journey, Matt 7:14 God has been very gracious & good in His longsuffering love towards me, I was so mule headed, thinking I could have God's salvation my way. In His tender mercies to me He broke me & in this brokenness I yielded up myself & committed to wait upon Him Psalm 123:2 & have His salvation on His terms, John 14:6 Luke 14:27 1Cor 1:18
Present day Christianity has not these gifts & fruits & why? In the Reformation, which small beginning began around 1400's, in slowly breaking away from the darkness of popery, did not cut all the cord asunder, but keep some of the their teaching. Like the Catholic's took over the Head of the Ministry from Christ, alone with His gifts unto men. Read the whole church history here, its freely on the web, don't rely on any man word for it, but turn to the Witness within your own heart, the Scriptures & sound reasoning, with a whole hearted love for the Truth, one cannot remain deceived for long or be deceived from what God in truth will discover to one who is searching for Him. Psalms 145:18
I am bit confused with what you say. You stated there are 2 stages of sanctification, the 1st being the state that Adam was before falling, the 2nd is a state like Christ's. But I think that both are sinless states, aren't they?
Anyway let's see the whole thing practically. In science, say Physics, for a theory to become a Law it must be prooved experimentally, if not it just remains a theory, never becomes a law. So we have the theory that people can live a sinless life. Now, the experiment. Have you met somebody who claim that they can live a sinless life? I haven't to be honest. And if in reality that can not be done there are 2 cases, either 1. the theory is wrong or 2. we have misunderstood the theory, it is not explained as we thought it is. In our case it is impossible that the theory ie God's Word is wrong. so that leaves the idea of wrongly understanding the theory, the Word of God.
Yes, sanctification is a progres work, we agree on that, it is the end of the road we disagree.
About a progressive or instant salvation. There are many verses that salvation is aquired believing in Jesus, John 6:47, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.". But we have to work out our salvation as in Phil 2:12 says. The grk for that "work out" means to "work something to give it a shape". So it means, in my opinion, to work out our salvation (which means through our saved life) to give ourselves the shape (character) of Jesus. Then Paul moves on saying with "fear and trembling". Why? Because salvation can be lost. How? In many ways ie 1. if we leave the narrow path and follow world's sinful ways and die in our sins, 2. even if we stay in the faith but still remain stubborn and unrepented about things we do and die in such a state and so on. God gives us a whole lifetime to get things straightened in our lives, but at the end of the meal the bill comes to the table.
Part 2 next.
[Comment Removed]
What I been given by the Spirit, & Scriptures is that the OT is our example.
God was ready to bring Israel into possession of the promise land, then after their 40yrs of wandering, they enter & came into a measure of it, but they stalled again & did not drive out all of there enemies, through doubt & unbelief, Hebrews 10:19 & the pleasures & comforts 1John 2:16 as then so now!
You say "Definitely not the 2nd case" they're cleaned & are continuously being clean. There is a state of Grace in the work of redemption that as one continues faithful to God, minding His reproofs & instructions in righteousness growing unto maturity in Christ, Hebrews 12:7-11 Hebrews 10:21-23 in judgment God remembers mercy. Our Father is a good one, He sees & discerns the intents of our hearts toward Him.
For instances, when we're learning how to walk, there's many falls, but at some point the child learns, doesn't fall any more. The same with coming out of sin, He takes us step by step, line upon line, bringing us through stages of deliverance. If we can overcome one sin, & continue in the exercising of His Grace we can eventually overcome all sin. Like the children of Israel we becomes content, grown fat, thus their miserable history of continuing in sin & ours. Oh, we keep up the outward appearance & lip service, but the inward work of His living Presence has ceased & now it just a memory of what He had wrought in us from past experiences, Grace is Divine Power to continue. 1Thess 5:24
So what has happen? Jude1:4 when it states they deny our Lord & Savior, He's talking about Grace / Light spiritual appearance within our hearts, the still small Voice of conscience. So these intruders has change Grace meaning, & turning it as a means to continue in sin, this would put Jesus as a promoter of sin & making it easy for us to continue in sin; Meaning a Gospel with no Cross to bear & denial of self, which Cross would purges & cleanse us from all sin.
You stated; New birth, regeneration & new creation does not mean a sinless state by no means. This is a total contradiction to the Holy Scriptures.
1Pet 1:23, 1John 3:9 & why? Because this Incorruptible Seed remains in him, who is Christ. They that are Christ has been buried with Him, meaning their dead unto sin, Rom 6 Which is indeed the Baptismal of the Holy Spirit purging out all the chaff. (sin) the old spiritual nature, were self is seen no more, & receiving Power to be witnesses unto Him, meaning we're conformed Rom 8:29 Christ the Head, we're the body, Ephesians 5:30 1Cor 6:17 Is Christ join to sin? Friend, you know that answer!
You say "we have limits all of us" I agree in the sense of different calling within His body for service, but not from excluding us to be free from all sin.
You say, "so sin does not only originate from the flesh, but from the spirit as well"
The body is just a vessel, being animated by the soul & spirit, if we are Rom 12:1,2 & are brought to the new birth in spirit, 2Pet 1:3,4 the body will be follow
You say "in life we have the Spirit partially" Gal 3:2 you decide the increase of you talent, Matt 9:29 there's no limit on how much of God we may inherit..
You say, "that Spirit has not transformed our nature" He transforms our carnal mind & put to death our carnal nature by the Cross/Grace/Light, & by His
2 Pet 1:3,4 God does nothing but through His Son & by His Spirit.
In love & truth
Bro. Dan. Am I "grasping for ways to explain away the TRUE MEANING of this very simple verse!?" Maybe it is not your desire to want to know more about what the original languages affirm rather to just accept the Word as presented in English. I confess that I don't often refer to the original languages, but I do when I detect that there could be a misunderstanding to what I'm reading and what other Scriptures may be saying, or even what I'm seeing in my own life or around me. Of course, not being conversant in Greek, & only having tools with me to help me in this regard, I admit that I could be wrong in my understanding of the explanation in Greek - another who is proficient in the language would need to assist us further.
Leaving that matter aside, the verses you shared state, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not". Let's accept that verse as given & read. So if we commit even one sin, here is sufficient proof that we are not abiding in Christ. And of course, it must be also true that Jesus is not abiding in us, for how can One so Holy have communion & reside in one that lacks holiness, having sin. Onto Page 2.
Or the other verse, "He that committeth sin is of the devil": if anyone professing to be a Christian commits even one sin, he doesn't actually belong to God (i.e. his salvation is spurious), but belongs to Satan. So Bro. Dan, if I take these verses as you say should be read, then I don't see this as a "wake up call to all Christians that we can't keep sinning", rather a clear affirmation that if we do commit even one sin, we would be hypocrites by calling ourselves 'Christian', when in fact we are actually children of the Devil.
So here is no wake up call, but a condemnation until this 'hypocrite' gets real with God & stops committing sins, even one sin. Is this how you read it brother? Because I'm having a difficult time understanding these verses as you shared, wondering when does a person actually become a 'true' Christian? Maybe this belief lends support to those who believe that salvation is only given at the Last Day of Judgement & so it seems unlikely that most of us will make it through. I hope that I haven't misunderstood you about those verses - if I have I apologize & seek clarification. Blessings.