Warning: session_start(): open(/var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80/sess_cm9lts8nbejq9ntn2lqfd14e2j, O_RDWR) failed: No space left on device (28) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2
Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 217904
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Once God had completed the Bible with the Book of Revelation, He states in no uncertain terms that we are never again to look for a direct communication from God in a dream or a voice or a vision or a tongue.
God only speaks to us directly in an articulated way through His Word, the Bible.
I was just thinking about this verse when I read David's post. We are still in the last days, as Peter called it in Acts, so the Spirit is still working in ways that Joel prophesied and Peter confirmed that it was being fulfilled in his day, which was the beginning years of the last days. The last days have lasted 2000 years so far. The last days will end with the return of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
I don't think that we can dictate to God what He can and cannot do in these days. But, then again, I think we should be wise in determining if such a vision, dream, or prophecy is truly from the Lord or not, either for ourselves or when another believer reveals that they have had such an experience. These visions, dreams, and prophecies cannot add to Scripture, I believe, because it was completed in the time of the apostles, but they also must align with Scripture in every way. Just as the Holy Spirit guides us in various ways, He also is able to work miraculously, bring answers to prayer, heal someone, and prevent people from going a certain place (like Paul) or open ways for one to go to a certain place. The Holy Spirit can work in infinite ways in us. We need to be open to His work in our lives and those of others. We should ask in prayer for discernment in such matters.
We have to start with an understanding of what Revelation 22:18 is teaching.
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"
As God was writing the Bible He was continually "Adding" to His Word, the Bible, "the prophecy of this book". And prophecy in the largest senses is a synonym for the entire Bible, itself. God did this in many ways, including direct communication with mankind in dreams and voices and visions, and tongues. Often times God even repeated words and phrases and ideas from one part of the Bible in another part of the Bible.
And if we were to remove or ignore one part of the Bible, even though it were a repetition, we would be taking away from "the words of the book of this prophecy" Revelation 22:19.
So any dream or voice or vision or tongue we would claim to be directly from God, would be an "Addition" to the Bible. And that is not possible once God had completed the Bible. That would be a clear violation of Revelation 22:18.
Furthermore, as we approach the end
of the world, God declares that Satan will be allowed to come with "signs and wonders" as we read in
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
So this matter of signs and wonders and miracles and visions and voices and tongues is very serious business and is actually a testing program that God has established FOR OUR DAY to test churches and congregations and individuals as to whether or not we will be satisfied with the Word God has given us in the Bible. Or are we going to accept the idea of "Additional" revelation apart from the Bible, itself.
Is it not interesting that in the last few decades we have seen an explosion within the churches of an interest in this kind of phenomena.
The specific verse at the end of Rev you stated is about the prophesy. Which prophesy? The Revelation. We cannot generalize it for the whole Scripture. It is specifically about the Revelation. And you know why? Because the Lord wants people who will be going through those events, they should know what exactly will be going on and how to face it. So nothing must be added or subtracted.
This does not mean that one can add or subtract from other parts of the Bible. But. Think about all those tenths of different christian beliefs. They are often very different between them. Some explain things in a different way, others have added things like the R/Catholics, other have subtracted things. So what is going to be the end of this whole thing? Who is going to be saved if that verse is applicable to the whole Bible? Almost none, isn't it so? Just a few teams. Think of the first Christian Hebrew church. Thousands of them followed the Mosaic Law as well as the gospel under the tolerance of the apostles. Did God reject them? No. Thousands of Catholics and Eastern Orthodox christians although they are born again they follow customs and practices added to the Gospel. Does God reject them? Once more, no. So we can not apply the warnings of that verse to the whole Bible.
The book of Revelation is about much more than just end time events. And it, like every other book in the Bible is an integral part of the Word of God as a Whole. So if we add or take away something to or from Revelation we have added or taken away from the Word of God, the Bible, of which God is the Author.
So we have to make a decision. Is the Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRETY going to be our AUTHORITY; or is the Bible PLUS a dream or a voice or a vision or a tongue that we believe came directly from God our AUTHORITY.
That is not an insignificant or inconsequential decision.
I do agree that with what is said in the passage you quoted in Revelation. I understand it to mean that there will be no more addition to what is considered Scriptures that have authority over all Christian believers. But God does work in the lives of individuals in ways described in the Bible throughout the past 2000 years.
Consider some of the great evangelists like George Mueller, Hudson Taylor, etc. who prayed for God to open doors for the gospel to reach non believers and for funding to come to their work when they had none and no source they knew of and the funds did arrive on time from sources unknown to them because someone was urged by the Holy Spirit to give to their work. Consider how some are healed miraculously. My friend contracted Hepatitis C from blood transfusions following the birth of her third child 33 years ago when there was not a cure. She prayed and believed God would heal her. When she went in for follow ups there was no trace of Hep C and she has not had any signs of this illness since..
I believe that God works still in ways described in the Scriptures. But I know that we are not to seek for things like visions and dreams, etc. And I never have done so. But what I have experienced was real and life-changing to refine me and promote a stronger walk with God. He was the initiator of these events, not that I was seeking them. Before these I just didn't think I would be one that would be the recipient of such things from God. But God chose to reach to me in such ways and I immediately went to the Bible to test to see if such are from the Lord.
David, I certainly do think that Scripture is given for us to know God and His will for us. To know the gospel that leads us to our Savior, Jesus Christ, to know how God has been active throughout the history of man and since the world was created.
I also believe that we cannot limit God in what He chooses to do. We should guard against attributing to Satan what is the work of God.
It is God that must work in the understanding of the True Believer to reveal Truth from the Bible. And God is certainly the one that opens doors for the True Gospel to go forth. And He also works in the lives of True Believers to direct them by causing various circumstances to develop in their lives, sometime as chastisement. These things are Very Different from receiving Devine Revelation from God as occurred before the Bible was completed.
As far as miracles are concerned, we must first define what a miracle is. When God created the world, when Jesus walked on water, when Jesus healed miraculously, i.e. any Miracle at all IS when God sets aside the physical laws by which He governs the Universe. God is not doing this today.
Any time anyone becomes healed from a sickness or a disease, it is God at work. But it is not a Miracle. Mankind does not understand all of the workings of the human body nor the affects of medicines. Healings of our day may seem miraculous, but they are not. They are God at work through the natural laws and processes He has established to govern the world and our well being.
There is one very specific Miracle that God has performed throughout time and is still performing today. And that is the Miracle of Salvation where God creates a New Resurrected Soul within each person that becomes saved. That is becoming Born Again.
So, GiGi, it really comes down to: What is the "Word" of God that we are following and that is our Authority? Is it the Bible Alone and in its Entirety; or is it the Bible plus a dream or a vision or a voice or a tongue that we believe we have received directly from God. We cannot have it both ways.
And I believe that God insists on the former and warns against the latter. And that is why we have Revelation 22:18,19 at the very end of the Bible.
I have to say that I am with you in regard to everything that you say on this subject . You talk sound Biblical sense 100 per cent . I am torn because I believe I witnessed a miracle of healing . Many years ago when I was 15 , just before my young cousins 10th birthday , he was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma . At the time his family were involved with the mormons . I was living with my cousin and his family and so I often accompanied him and his mum my aunty , to the hospital when he went for treatment . Some months into treatment my aunty and I were shown his X rays and it was horrible . We could clearly see that he was full of cancer from his groin to his lungs , we were told that he might survive six months and treatment was stopped . The Mormons arranged some kind of blessing which I did not attend and we all waited for Carl to deteriorate and die . It didn't happen . After a few months we went back to the hospital for a check up , he was X rayed and there was no cancer . He's 51 years old now but not a mormon . I saw all this and cannot explain it . I'm usually in agreement with you on this subject but , I cannot deny what I saw with my own eyes and do see , every time I see my healthy fit alive cousin .
Thanks for sharing this. It was a miracle. Cancer doesn't just go away like that when it is so advanced. Our bodies don't heal themselves to eradicate cancer in that way, as David is implying. God supernaturally took the cancer from this person, just as He supernaturally took Hep C from my friend's body without treatment for it in a matter of a month or so. We should certainly give the LORD the praise for all ways He brings healing to us, but when He does miracles such as this, we do need to testify to it. When Jesus healed people miraculously in the Bible, the people at that time did not have all the information about how disease works or how our bodies heal, just like today, as David stated. But regardless of what they knew or we know, He performed miracles then and today in specific circumstance but not in all circumstances. The decision to do a miracle is in His hands, not ours. We can pray for such healing miracles, especially when it seems everything tried has failed. It is always a good thing when He does heal miraculously. These are treasures to us who experience them in ourselves or in those who know and love. I ask, why wouldn't God continue to do miracles after the time of the apostles? He has been doing miracles since the beginning of creation. There is no reason for Him to stop acting miraculously, as Scripture does not say that He will stop doing so.
When it comes to dreams and visions, Acts 2:17-18 speaks of the prophecy from Joel being fulfilled in the latter days, which began with Jesus' birth (Simeon and Zachariah prophesied, John prophesied) and continued through the time of Acts and life of John and some of the early believers in the first century (Philips translation from one place to another) and we are still in the latter days up to now because Christ has not come again to judge the living and the dead yet. I think we can expect miracles, dreams and visions and any of the other ways God has acted in the lives of humans until the end.
Let me say right up front that I have no doubt God was active in the healing of your cousin. Just as God is active when any of us are healed of a sickness or a disease.
But when we look at the true miracles that we read about in the Bible, God is clearly setting aside the physical laws by which He governs the Universe. When God created the world He was actually at the same time establishing those physical laws. When Jesus walked on the water He actually set aside the law of gravity. When Jesus instantly healed the blind and the sick and the lame He was not using the natural processes that work in our bodies. And when He raised Lazarus from the dead, and other the miracles we read about in the Bible; these were all true miracles.
And incidentally, they were performed and included in the Bible as "historical parables" teaching us some aspect of the nature of salvation itself.
As I indicated in my comment to GiGi, there are many many things about the physical laws of nature, including our bodies and medicine that we don't understand, and have come to understand a little bit over time but certainty not completely; like electricity, like radio and TV, like the internet, like nuclear power, like medicine, etc. These things are not miracles; but several hundred years ago they would have seemed so.
So the fact that we witness an event that we cannot explain does not make it a miracle.
And I am quite certain that was the case with your cousin. And you are certainly correct in giving God all of the credit and glory for His recovery.
Also I would not put any stock in the Mormon religion as it is certainly a gospel that looks beyond the Bible for Devine Revelation.
I am going to tell you a real story that happened to my wife 3-4 years ago. It will seem to you and others as imaginery but it is a true story. A story about God setting aside the physical laws.
My wife at that time was wondering how it was when the Spirit took Phillip from being together with that eunuch and transported him to some other place. Did he fly or something?So one morning she was driving to her job. We live in a town and my wife's job is at another town which is about 25km far away. In between the road goes through a village. So as she was driving and approaching that village, she suddenly realized that she was at the exit, at the other side of the village. She tried to remember passing through that village but she couldn't remember to have passed through. She looked at the car's hand gears, it was the higher gear (cars in Europe are not automatic, they have hand gears). Normally when you pass through a village one lowers the gear and goes slower. But the gear was still the high one, as it was before entering the village. In the beginning she couldn't figure out what happened to her, she was puzzled. She thought she may have had a loss of memory. But then she remembered what she was asking the Lord. One may claim that it was actually a memory loss. But she never had before or after such things. Yes, it was the Spirit who transported her from one place to another without her even realizing it. If things permit I will tell you more real stories about real miracles from God. GBU
Oh I know about the mormon church . I attended their Sunday school very briefly . I was about 15 years and had no biblical knowledge . We were in a sisters class and the lady teacher pulled a ten dollar bill out of her purse and said to us : look at this ! I forgot to pay my tithe last week ! I'm so ashamed , imagine if I had died without paying it ! I would have gone straight to hell ! As you can guess , I never went back , even at that age I knew that salvation cannot be bought .
Once God had completed the Bible with the Book of Revelation, He states in no uncertain terms that we are never again to look for a direct communication from God in a dream or a voice or a vision or a tongue.
God only speaks to us directly in an articulated way through His Word, the Bible.
Acts 2:17,18
Selah
In love & truth
I was just thinking about this verse when I read David's post. We are still in the last days, as Peter called it in Acts, so the Spirit is still working in ways that Joel prophesied and Peter confirmed that it was being fulfilled in his day, which was the beginning years of the last days. The last days have lasted 2000 years so far. The last days will end with the return of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
I don't think that we can dictate to God what He can and cannot do in these days. But, then again, I think we should be wise in determining if such a vision, dream, or prophecy is truly from the Lord or not, either for ourselves or when another believer reveals that they have had such an experience. These visions, dreams, and prophecies cannot add to Scripture, I believe, because it was completed in the time of the apostles, but they also must align with Scripture in every way. Just as the Holy Spirit guides us in various ways, He also is able to work miraculously, bring answers to prayer, heal someone, and prevent people from going a certain place (like Paul) or open ways for one to go to a certain place. The Holy Spirit can work in infinite ways in us. We need to be open to His work in our lives and those of others. We should ask in prayer for discernment in such matters.
We have to start with an understanding of what Revelation 22:18 is teaching.
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"
As God was writing the Bible He was continually "Adding" to His Word, the Bible, "the prophecy of this book". And prophecy in the largest senses is a synonym for the entire Bible, itself. God did this in many ways, including direct communication with mankind in dreams and voices and visions, and tongues. Often times God even repeated words and phrases and ideas from one part of the Bible in another part of the Bible.
And if we were to remove or ignore one part of the Bible, even though it were a repetition, we would be taking away from "the words of the book of this prophecy" Revelation 22:19.
So any dream or voice or vision or tongue we would claim to be directly from God, would be an "Addition" to the Bible. And that is not possible once God had completed the Bible. That would be a clear violation of Revelation 22:18.
Furthermore, as we approach the end
of the world, God declares that Satan will be allowed to come with "signs and wonders" as we read in
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
So this matter of signs and wonders and miracles and visions and voices and tongues is very serious business and is actually a testing program that God has established FOR OUR DAY to test churches and congregations and individuals as to whether or not we will be satisfied with the Word God has given us in the Bible. Or are we going to accept the idea of "Additional" revelation apart from the Bible, itself.
Is it not interesting that in the last few decades we have seen an explosion within the churches of an interest in this kind of phenomena.
The specific verse at the end of Rev you stated is about the prophesy. Which prophesy? The Revelation. We cannot generalize it for the whole Scripture. It is specifically about the Revelation. And you know why? Because the Lord wants people who will be going through those events, they should know what exactly will be going on and how to face it. So nothing must be added or subtracted.
This does not mean that one can add or subtract from other parts of the Bible. But. Think about all those tenths of different christian beliefs. They are often very different between them. Some explain things in a different way, others have added things like the R/Catholics, other have subtracted things. So what is going to be the end of this whole thing? Who is going to be saved if that verse is applicable to the whole Bible? Almost none, isn't it so? Just a few teams. Think of the first Christian Hebrew church. Thousands of them followed the Mosaic Law as well as the gospel under the tolerance of the apostles. Did God reject them? No. Thousands of Catholics and Eastern Orthodox christians although they are born again they follow customs and practices added to the Gospel. Does God reject them? Once more, no. So we can not apply the warnings of that verse to the whole Bible.
GBU
The book of Revelation is about much more than just end time events. And it, like every other book in the Bible is an integral part of the Word of God as a Whole. So if we add or take away something to or from Revelation we have added or taken away from the Word of God, the Bible, of which God is the Author.
So we have to make a decision. Is the Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRETY going to be our AUTHORITY; or is the Bible PLUS a dream or a voice or a vision or a tongue that we believe came directly from God our AUTHORITY.
That is not an insignificant or inconsequential decision.
I do agree that with what is said in the passage you quoted in Revelation. I understand it to mean that there will be no more addition to what is considered Scriptures that have authority over all Christian believers. But God does work in the lives of individuals in ways described in the Bible throughout the past 2000 years.
Consider some of the great evangelists like George Mueller, Hudson Taylor, etc. who prayed for God to open doors for the gospel to reach non believers and for funding to come to their work when they had none and no source they knew of and the funds did arrive on time from sources unknown to them because someone was urged by the Holy Spirit to give to their work. Consider how some are healed miraculously. My friend contracted Hepatitis C from blood transfusions following the birth of her third child 33 years ago when there was not a cure. She prayed and believed God would heal her. When she went in for follow ups there was no trace of Hep C and she has not had any signs of this illness since..
I believe that God works still in ways described in the Scriptures. But I know that we are not to seek for things like visions and dreams, etc. And I never have done so. But what I have experienced was real and life-changing to refine me and promote a stronger walk with God. He was the initiator of these events, not that I was seeking them. Before these I just didn't think I would be one that would be the recipient of such things from God. But God chose to reach to me in such ways and I immediately went to the Bible to test to see if such are from the Lord.
David, I certainly do think that Scripture is given for us to know God and His will for us. To know the gospel that leads us to our Savior, Jesus Christ, to know how God has been active throughout the history of man and since the world was created.
I also believe that we cannot limit God in what He chooses to do. We should guard against attributing to Satan what is the work of God.
It is God that must work in the understanding of the True Believer to reveal Truth from the Bible. And God is certainly the one that opens doors for the True Gospel to go forth. And He also works in the lives of True Believers to direct them by causing various circumstances to develop in their lives, sometime as chastisement. These things are Very Different from receiving Devine Revelation from God as occurred before the Bible was completed.
As far as miracles are concerned, we must first define what a miracle is. When God created the world, when Jesus walked on water, when Jesus healed miraculously, i.e. any Miracle at all IS when God sets aside the physical laws by which He governs the Universe. God is not doing this today.
Any time anyone becomes healed from a sickness or a disease, it is God at work. But it is not a Miracle. Mankind does not understand all of the workings of the human body nor the affects of medicines. Healings of our day may seem miraculous, but they are not. They are God at work through the natural laws and processes He has established to govern the world and our well being.
There is one very specific Miracle that God has performed throughout time and is still performing today. And that is the Miracle of Salvation where God creates a New Resurrected Soul within each person that becomes saved. That is becoming Born Again.
So, GiGi, it really comes down to: What is the "Word" of God that we are following and that is our Authority? Is it the Bible Alone and in its Entirety; or is it the Bible plus a dream or a vision or a voice or a tongue that we believe we have received directly from God. We cannot have it both ways.
And I believe that God insists on the former and warns against the latter. And that is why we have Revelation 22:18,19 at the very end of the Bible.
Thanks for sharing this. It was a miracle. Cancer doesn't just go away like that when it is so advanced. Our bodies don't heal themselves to eradicate cancer in that way, as David is implying. God supernaturally took the cancer from this person, just as He supernaturally took Hep C from my friend's body without treatment for it in a matter of a month or so. We should certainly give the LORD the praise for all ways He brings healing to us, but when He does miracles such as this, we do need to testify to it. When Jesus healed people miraculously in the Bible, the people at that time did not have all the information about how disease works or how our bodies heal, just like today, as David stated. But regardless of what they knew or we know, He performed miracles then and today in specific circumstance but not in all circumstances. The decision to do a miracle is in His hands, not ours. We can pray for such healing miracles, especially when it seems everything tried has failed. It is always a good thing when He does heal miraculously. These are treasures to us who experience them in ourselves or in those who know and love. I ask, why wouldn't God continue to do miracles after the time of the apostles? He has been doing miracles since the beginning of creation. There is no reason for Him to stop acting miraculously, as Scripture does not say that He will stop doing so.
When it comes to dreams and visions, Acts 2:17-18 speaks of the prophecy from Joel being fulfilled in the latter days, which began with Jesus' birth (Simeon and Zachariah prophesied, John prophesied) and continued through the time of Acts and life of John and some of the early believers in the first century (Philips translation from one place to another) and we are still in the latter days up to now because Christ has not come again to judge the living and the dead yet. I think we can expect miracles, dreams and visions and any of the other ways God has acted in the lives of humans until the end.
Thank you for your comment.
Let me say right up front that I have no doubt God was active in the healing of your cousin. Just as God is active when any of us are healed of a sickness or a disease.
But when we look at the true miracles that we read about in the Bible, God is clearly setting aside the physical laws by which He governs the Universe. When God created the world He was actually at the same time establishing those physical laws. When Jesus walked on the water He actually set aside the law of gravity. When Jesus instantly healed the blind and the sick and the lame He was not using the natural processes that work in our bodies. And when He raised Lazarus from the dead, and other the miracles we read about in the Bible; these were all true miracles.
And incidentally, they were performed and included in the Bible as "historical parables" teaching us some aspect of the nature of salvation itself.
As I indicated in my comment to GiGi, there are many many things about the physical laws of nature, including our bodies and medicine that we don't understand, and have come to understand a little bit over time but certainty not completely; like electricity, like radio and TV, like the internet, like nuclear power, like medicine, etc. These things are not miracles; but several hundred years ago they would have seemed so.
So the fact that we witness an event that we cannot explain does not make it a miracle.
And I am quite certain that was the case with your cousin. And you are certainly correct in giving God all of the credit and glory for His recovery.
Also I would not put any stock in the Mormon religion as it is certainly a gospel that looks beyond the Bible for Devine Revelation.
Respectfully,
David
I am going to tell you a real story that happened to my wife 3-4 years ago. It will seem to you and others as imaginery but it is a true story. A story about God setting aside the physical laws.
My wife at that time was wondering how it was when the Spirit took Phillip from being together with that eunuch and transported him to some other place. Did he fly or something?So one morning she was driving to her job. We live in a town and my wife's job is at another town which is about 25km far away. In between the road goes through a village. So as she was driving and approaching that village, she suddenly realized that she was at the exit, at the other side of the village. She tried to remember passing through that village but she couldn't remember to have passed through. She looked at the car's hand gears, it was the higher gear (cars in Europe are not automatic, they have hand gears). Normally when you pass through a village one lowers the gear and goes slower. But the gear was still the high one, as it was before entering the village. In the beginning she couldn't figure out what happened to her, she was puzzled. She thought she may have had a loss of memory. But then she remembered what she was asking the Lord. One may claim that it was actually a memory loss. But she never had before or after such things. Yes, it was the Spirit who transported her from one place to another without her even realizing it. If things permit I will tell you more real stories about real miracles from God. GBU
Thanks for your reply. At this point, I don't feel a need to reply more than what I have already shared with you. But I do appreciate your input.
And May God richly bless you.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?