Warning: session_start(): open(/var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80/sess_jfhi6uc43p1l8lkjrpdkpibebp, O_RDWR) failed: No space left on device (28) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2
Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 218041
In ( Mt. 24:21-22) v21 "For then shall be great tribulation"
v22 Tells us "for the (elect's) sake those days shall be shortened"
The word (elect's) is #1588; it means select, by implying favorite, chosen, to select, make choice, choose (out) chosen.
God's elect are His favorite, His chosen ones in whom He will choose (out) ( Mt. 24:40-42) True Believers.
In ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation"
v30 "and they shall see the Son of man (Jesus Christ) coming (in the clouds) of heaven with power and great glory"
v31 "and they shall gather together his elect"
AFTER the tribulation is when the (elect) are gathered together.
In ( Rev. 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, ((a great multitude, which no man could number)), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".
( Rev. 7:14-17) v14 Tells us "These are they which ((came out of great tribulation)), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"
A great multitude that no man could number ((came out of great tribulation)), the Son of man (Jesus Christ) comes in the clouds to gather together His elect (Immediately AFTER the tribulation)
v17 Tells us "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall ((feed them)), and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes"
When will the Lamb feed them?
The marriage supper of the Lamb is when those who came out of great tribulation will be fed in ( Rev. 19:7-9)
A great multitude that no man could number comes out of great tribulation.
When God pours out His wrath on the earth no man will be able to enter into the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled, ( Rev. 15:7-8)
All seven vials full of the wrath of God will be poured out on the earth and no man will be able to enter into the temple.
The falling away in grk is "apostasis". From apo(=from) and stasis=(a stationary point, a stand, a stop). So it litterally means one who keeps a distance from somebody/something. In ancient grk (but not modern grk) divorcement is "apostaseion". Apostaseion/divorce was a letter that men wrote for their wives whom they wanted to divorce, so those women were free to remarry. If they didn't have that paper they would had been called an adulterer and were in a danger to be stonned. So it was something for the benefit of the divorced women.
That word, apostaseion, although originates from the same root words as apostasis, in Thessalonians it has not the same meaning. It doesn't mean a divorce but rather means the church who keeps a distance, separates herself from their head, the Lord. I believe it means the old christian nations who at that time turn their back to God and become atheists or/and they turn away from the right beliefs trying to compromise the Word of God with the beliefs of the world.
p2. Giannis you said (falling away) in Greek means "one who keeps a distance from somebody. something".
I'm not sure where you got that from or how you came up with that meaning, its not in the Strong's Concordance.
The meaning of the words (falling away) in the Strong's Concordance is #646; in Greek and it means feminine (gender) of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] falling away, forsake.
feminine (gender) of the same as #647; #647 means something separative, i.e divorce, (writing of) divorcement.
Even if we don't use the #647 meaning of the word which means (writing of) divorcement then we still have the word ["apostasy"] in the #646 meaning. The word (apostasy) means (1) Abandonment of one's religious faith. (2) An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from, one's faith. (3) In theology, a total abandonment of the Christian faith. If we abandonment our Christian faith we turn from God, we FALL AWAY.
This just happens to be when the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed and sitting in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God, that will be the cause of the departing from the Christian faith, the falling away.
I would really like to here what your thoughts are about the #1 pre-tribulation rapture verses ( 1 Thess. 4:15-17) being almost in perfect alignment with the Son of man coming in the clouds to gather together His elect Immediately AFTER the tribulation in ( Mt. 24:29-31)?
When Jesus returns riding a white horse in ( Rev. 19:11-16) there is no mention of (1) coming in the clouds) (2) no sound of a trumpet. (3) no gathering together of anybody. Here He comes ((from heaven)) to the earth.
We meet Him in the clouds in ( 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and in ( Mt. 24:29-31) these are the same events.
Sorry I have done a mistake. Grk for "apostasy" is apostaseia", feminine as you said. The etymology of the word, its very literal meaning is as I have written, but it is used for all sort of things as described by Strong's concordance.
The word "apostasis" is used in grk for "distance" . So the literal meaning is a condition of one or a team who holds a distance (figuratively abandonment, desertion etc) from someone/something, whether this is a religious belief, a political belief, any system really. The anc grk for divorce is "apostaseion", neutral. It comes from the same component words. In Thess it doesn't have the meaning of divorce, but Christians who abandoned their religion or the true faith.
Brother if verses that show a normal life on earth before rapture didn't exist then I would definitely come with a post tribulation rapture, but they do exist and do not fit to Revelation, so there has to be another explanation I believe. Otherwise how could someone interprete those? Again what do you think the restrainer may be, any idea?
Giannis again thank you for your reply. ( 2 Thess. 2:6-7) The word (withholdeth) is #2722; it means to hold down (fast)
I am not sure what the withholdeth, or the restrainer is Giannis, but see what you think of this. I have heard many say its the Holy Spirit but I don't think it is the Holy Spirit.
I have heard some say its Michael the archangel. This seems to be a more logical answer to me, here's why.
When this is happening that will definitely be the Lastdays, Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth by Michael in ( Rev. 12:7-9)
Satan is the one who gives the beast power and his seat, and great authority in ( Rev. 13:2) also in ( Rev. 13:5) the beast is given power to continue ((forty and two months or 3 1/2 years)) I believe this will be when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation. That would put great tribulation at a 3 1/2 year time period (not 7 years) and it will be shortened for the elects sake. I do believe the time of the beginning of sorrows in ( Mt. 24:4-14) is the first 3 1/2 years and I think we are living it right now.
Also if we look at ( Dan. 12:1) We see "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: ((and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation)) even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book".
A time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation sounds a lot like ( Mt. 24:15) and ( Mt. 24:21-22) v21 "For then shall be great tribulation ((such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be".
I'm not really sure about this, what do you think Giannis?
Also if you don't mind, would you please provide those verses that show a normal life on earth before the rapture?
We are living in a time period right now Giannis where nothing is normal anymore! evil has taken over!
1. About archangel Michael and Israel. I agree with you that this refers to the persecution of Jews by antichrist. God will send Michael to protect them, this is the incident whit woman in the wilderness, a figure of speech for keeping someone away to protect them.
2. About life just before rapture when I said it will be a normal life I meant about material things not the spiritual condition of the world. Paul tells us that the people of the last times will be the worse of all. It seems that the material condition of people is the opposite of their spiritual condition. The richer they are the less moral they become. It is true that when people suffer then they show more sympathy and mercy to others. That's why the previous generations were poorer but at the same time more moral than today's world
In Matth 24:29 says that immediately after the tribulation the sun, moon, stars will go dark and the powers of the heavens will be shaken and then Jesus comes. So the tribulation is after or at the same time as God's wrath, not before. and just before Jesus arrival
In Matth 24:38 says , "38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Eating, drinking, marrying, building (says another gospel). These are activities of a normal life. People seem to be careless and unprepared and Jesus' coming will surprise them. This is not obviously the condition of the world during the time that the Revelation describes.
The above 2 scriptures seem to contradict each other if we assume a single coming of Jesus. So it has to be 2 separate comings. When is the first? Before the tribulation starts, ie normal life
The second? After the tribulation ends.
When is the tribulation? It cannot be before God's wrath because after the trib. Jesus comes.
The tribulation period and the wrath of God are different periods, to not get this right will throw off the timeline for the Lastdays prophecy in many ways.
In (Lu 17:27-30) v29 "But ((the same day)) that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all". Instead of focusing on them eating, and drinking and marrying, and giving in marriage, put your focus on THE SAME DAY. The same day Lot went out it rained fire and brimstone! The wrath of God starts the same day Jesus comes.
( 2 Thess 1:7-10) v7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels".
v8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God" (In flaming fire taking vengeance on them is pouring out His wrath on them) The word (wrath) is #3709; it means violent passion, punishment, anger, indignation, ((vengeance)).
v9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power".
( John 3:36) In this verse He that believeth will be those who are taken in ( Mt. 24:40-42) the ones caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds in ( 1 Thess 4:16-17) which happens "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" ( Mt 24:29-31)
Those who (believeth not) are the one's left in ( Mt. 24:40-42) the wrath of God abideth on them, the disobedient ones in ( Eph 5:6) and ( Col 3:6) and ( Rom 1:18)
Believers receive everlasting life!
non-believers receive the wrath of God!
( Zephaniah 1:14-18) v14 "The great day of the LORD is near" v15 "That day is a day of wrath".
These verses show us that God's wrath comes the same day Jesus comes.
( Rom 1:18) ( Eph 5:6) ( Col 3:6) ( Rev 6:16-17) God's wrath comes on bad, disobedient, non-believers in Jesus Christ.
( 1 Thess 5:9) Believers in Jesus are not appointed to wrath.
( 1Thess 1:10) The word (delivered) is 4506; it means to rush or draw (for oneself) to rescue.
( Rom 5:9) "being now justified by his blood we shall be saved from wrath through him"
You wrote>>Satan is the one who gives the beast power and his seat, and great authority in ( Rev. 13:2) also in ( Rev. 13:5) the beast is given power to continue ((forty and two months or 3 1/2 years)) I believe this will be when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation.
Let me make a summary of your posts to see whether I have understood you correctly.
Some time in the future the antichrist appears in the world. The last 7 year period starts. Sometime during that time as the antichrist has aquired power as the leader of a union of the most powerful nations on earth, he starts placing his mark on people. Then the tribulation of christians starts. Sometime during that time Jesus Christ comes and gathers His saints in the air. The marriage of Jesus with His church takes place in Heaven. At that time on earth many catastrophies due to God's wrath start occuring. At the end Jesus with His saints come back on earth and all things end here. So according to you who or what is the restrainer that hinders the antichrist appearing in the world's system?
I have an objection about the above brother. On Rev 21:2 it seems that the marriage has not occured yet, as if it is going to occur on the new earth, "1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.".
But it may mean that the marriage has already taken place? If the marriage has alredy taken place before Jesus' final arriving here, then no people will be saved during the millenium? During the millenium it seems to me that there will be 2 kinds of people, the marked and the unmarked ones, because I don't believe that the antichrist will manage to mark all people. And not all unmarked people will be saved, they have to believe in Jesus, too. Because, say a muslim who refused to receive the mark and makes it to the end, is he going to be saved?
Anyway. If we assume that the restrainer is the Holly Spirit, and this is a very good assumption, then the church has to go together. This is where the pretribulation belief mainly relys on. So to you what else may the restrainer be?
Giannis thank you for your reply. When Jesus comes to the earth riding a white horse with His Saints that will end the wrath of God and start the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. If you read ( Rev. 19:7-9) this is the marriage supper of the Lamb. In ( Rev. 19:11-16) just 2 verses after the marriage supper we see in ( Rev. 19:11) "And I saw ((heaven opened)), and behold a white horse" Heaven opened so this is showing Jesus leaving the marriage supper of the Lamb and coming ((FROM HEAVEN)) riding a white horse to the earth, to ((judge and make war)).
( Rev. 19:15) Tells us "and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and ((wrath of Almighty God))". Jesus ends the wrath of God here and begins His 1000 year reign on the earth. Im not sure where you came up with nobody will be saved out of the Millenium, I didn't say that. Nobody will be saved during the wrath of God ( Rev. 15:8-9) tell us that "no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled".
( Rev. 19:19) "And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army".
( Rev. 19:20) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet,. .. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone".
( Rev. 20:1-3) v2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years". Satan, nor the beast, nor the false prophet will be present during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.
THEN ( Rev. 20:7-9) v7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison".
( Rev. 20:10) "And the devil that deceiveth them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone"
( Rev. 20:11-15) The great white throne judgment.
All this happens before ( Rev. 21:2) where you said the marriage supper had not occurred yet.
This is a fairly easy timeline to follow when reading it straight through.
You asked: Do Believers go through great tribulation?
Yes, they do. Get ready, it will be the last seven years of the Devil's world. It is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of this devilish world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching.
The journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last seven years, and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt. By the way, there will be two BEASTS reigning in the Earth, one Gentile Beast and another Jewish, that is a false lamb, a false messiah, AN IMPOSTOR, as prophesied JESUS- John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11KJV. The 1st 42 months of the last seven years, it will be ruled by the FIRST Beast enthroned in Jerusalem by the false messiah as is written in Rev.13:2 and 5-KJV. The 2nd Beast -the false messiah-will rule the 2nd half of the last seven years. Get ready.
Daniel in his prophecy, warned, saying: Daniel 12:11-12KJV
11"From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (yes, it shall be taken away because there was a certain period of time to cease the sacrifice or be taken out of the way, the restraining, by the way, the sacrifice of JESUS have lasted until this current time or around 720.000 days, and now will cease) and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. JESUS warned us: Matthew 24:15-"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)if not understand, it may complicate, it is what I think), after all it will be 1290 very tense days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days
Oseas thank you for your response. Sorry for the late reply. We will go through the great tribulation, but in ( Mt 24:21-22) v22 Tells us "but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened". Those days are the days of great tribulation.
The great tribulation will not be a 7 year time period according to the Words of Jesus in these verses.
"34And take heed to yourselves (believers), lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
A few points on the above.
1. How is it possible that Jesus warns us not be in a state of pleasure and carings of this life when in the great tribulation christians will suffer, persecuted and get killed for their faith in God? How is it possible to be involved in matters of this life when christians will not accept the beast's mark and eventually won't be able even to survive in such conditions?
2. Please pay attention to verse 36, "... that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass..."
3. I have read in older posts that God will preserve us like He did with Hebrews in Egypt. But at that time they were all concetrated at a place, the Land of Goshen. In the future we will be dispersed throughout the whole earth, it is a different thing altogether.
To me it is clear that the time when Jesus comes to take His Bribe is at a different time from His 2nd coming on earth. The condition of the world in those two cases will be completely different.
At the rapture the world is the ususal normal world. People will be involved with their everyday life, not fearing for what comes next, unprepared. Why? Because life will be as usual. Matthew 24:36-40.
On the contrary at the 2nd coming huge catastrophies will be occuring on earth, millions will be killed by the antichrist, people will be scared to death for the things to come. The whole polital/economical system will collapse(the Babylon), Luke 21:25-26 and events on Revelation
2 different conditions on earth, 2 diferent events.
The question exists; of course if all those left behind are unbelievers or if some have either not produced fruit at present and ARE His children. That could result from living in unrepentant sin; perhaps for quite some time. As far as a lifestyle of sin; it is certain that there are some who not only will miss the Rapture but continue on afterwards and be deceived by "THE LIE" and ultimately worship the Antichrist because they didn't LOVE the truth even though they knew it. The main reasoning I have is to have garments in the first place we must be saved; making them white in the blood of martyrs is basically the only way to produce fruit in the Tribulation. God has created us for good works; but the lukewarm church today is largely indistinguishable from the world. God knows ultimately if we are saved; His sheep or not.
I would say it is possible the firstfruits would be indicative of ALL those from Christ Himself; then those who rose out of their graves at the Resurrection; then the "last trump" Resurrection and Rapture event; then the 144,000 being (likely) translated and finally the two witnesses (can't remember which comes first). Anyway; some will not be Resurrected it apears in Revelation 20 until the Trib is over. Some of these could be those left behind who may either have already been believers or new believers. Those at His coming indicate the Second Coming as to those physically alive or Resurrected at that time.
The O.T. timing of the OLD TESTAMENT saints seems to show their Resurrection right around the midpoint of the Trib; PERHAPS indicating a different timing from the rest of the church saints. One difference not mentioned yet here is the sounding of THE archangel Michael at the Rapture; as opposed to angels (plural) at the Resurrection of the elect later on in the Trib.
There is probably a lot more I could say. It is clear that Christ coming at a time of relative prosperity is likely showing an event before the Trib begins. That also fits into the Restrainer being removed; which I would contend as others indicates the Holy Spirit's ministry during the Church Age; as compared with the signs and wonders predominating afterwards. I don't believe even if the Rapture is "secret" many open graves can be explained away or hidden (even if we are considered "reprogrammed" as the unenlightened ones). We probably will be considered the aliens when Christ returns in my opinion.
No matter what opinion we have on the subject being prepared to die with Christ NOW is in order; and that starts with dying to self a little more each day. Anyone who thinks the Seal Judgments aren't too bad need a serious reality check. If we have to be in it it's one thing; none of us should WANT to go through the Trib if logical
Richard H Priday I hope you don't mind me responding to your comment to Giannis. Your last paragraph really stood out to me Richard, you said "No matter what opinion we have on the subject (subject is when is the rapture) being prepared to die with Christ NOW is in order; and that starts with dying to self a little more each day. Anyone who thinks the Seal Judgments aren't too bad need a serious reality check. If we have to be in it it's one thing; none of us should WANT to go through the Trib if logical".
Very wise words Richard!
You see it as, if a pre-tribulation rapture doesn't happen you will be prepared. Many, many pre-trib believers think its 100% going to happen there are no other options. No preparations, mainly what should be spiritual strengthening as putting on the whole armour of God ( Eph. 6:10-17) to stand against the (wiles) of the devil ( Eph. 6:11) in the evil day ( Eph. 6:13)
I'm sure you're right about nobody wanting to go through the tribulation period as it will be a time of testing like there has never been before. I think its much better to go into something with a knowledge of what is coming at you, rather than expecting to be taken out of a bad situation, but then having to go through that bad situation along with pure deception and evil, and not expecting it.
( 2 Thess. 1-3) v3 Tells us "for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away) first. The words (falling away) #646; it means defection from truth [properly the state] ("apostasy"), forsake, something separative, divorce, (writing of) divorcement. Those (falling away) are True Believers or they would not receive a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ.
It just so happens this (writing of) divorcement (falling away) happens when the man of sin is revealed. ( 2 Thess. 2:4) "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".
Do you see what could be happening here Richard if there is no pre-tribulation rapture?
Dear Giannis: I have looked at a possible solution here to integrate all the scriptures that the Rapture may be a reward rather than just a salvation issue. There are types and shadows with those who escaped FROM and event such as Enoch from the Flood judgment (who pleased God and walked with Him) and those such as Lot who escaped THROUGH an event (namely going through the fire as it will but in some sense suffering loss).
Arguments have come up here as to the statement in Thessalonians and Corinthians in regard to ALL the church being raptured at the time of the Resurrection of the rest of the Church saints. This; however would in some sense make verses such as the one in Luke about praying to be worthy to escape moot. Clearly not ALL saints; in fact only few meet the Malachi 3 "Book of Rememberance" status in regard to them speaking often of the event and fearing God; etc. We also need to consider the "white and unspotted/unwrinkled" state in Ephesians discussing those who are part of the Bride; as well as those in Rev. 4 who appear as "kings and priests"; compared with the fate of those whose garments are tarnished and appear to have the made white through martyrdom as Rev. 6 indicates.
Clearly complexities arise as to whether these are some of the Christians left behind; or purely a new batch of saints after the witness of the 144,000. Daniel shows the difference; saints WILL be overcome whereas now in this era the gates of hell will not prevail against the church (I'll let you look up the verses). Perhaps going through the fire so to speak is simply limited to the Bema Seat or it involves being purified along with those Jews in Jacob's trouble. Surely the churches appear absent after Rev. 3 ends; the first part of chapter 4 seems to indicate that. There are also tricky verses later on such as that in Rev. 19 where the thief in the night analogy of being naked is indicated. That could be the last holdouts that get in "as through the fire
So if we want to include all relevant verses in an explanation we have to have 2 separate comings of Jesus
2. Is rapture a reward or salvation? I would rather use the term a salvation completed. What about the 5 unwise virgins who will go through the tribulation? May be saved or may not. It depends on the decisions they will make in their lives, whether to receive the mark or not. Many say, in my opinion lightly, that they will stand during that period. Really? One day we fast and we raid the fridge in the evening and we believe that we will stay strong during that time of starvation? When our babies cry for food, we will just stay strong watching them starving to death and not receive the mark? Are we serious? When we will watch our loved ones dying without any access to medicine, doctors, hospitals we will just play it strong in faith? Science fiction. Many will accept the mark. One should be exceptionally strong (x many times) to stand the great tribulation. Even in the ancient church thousands of christians prefered to swear in the emperor's name and avoid the lions. Do we think that all martyred? No, not. A major problem in the ancient church was what to do with all those who committed obedience to the emperor but then repented(?) and came back to the church? Should they accepte them back or not? Some churches never accepted them back, some did. So let's not anwer lightly. Some will stand, some will not. So the rapture is not really a reward but a secured salvation. If we are left out ? God help us
3. About those 144000. I believe they are the firstfruits of the nation of Israel. That woman who is pregnant in Christ can not be the church, because for us Christ has already been born in our hearts. It has to be Israel. But I may be wrong
About the other details brother in your post, I can not really say anything, as I said I am not studying the eschatology enthusiastically. Thanks brother, I appreciate your respone, sorry I can not answer your points
You raise many points in your post. You seem to have studied eschatology in details. But not me. Everytime I have tried to place all those events at the end in an order I ended up having a headache, so I have quited really. But I know some general things. Daniel at the end of his book writes that the angel who was revealing him the future said " Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.".
To me this may mean that nobody can really translate these last events clearly. As time for the fulfillment of these events approaches then people who will be living during that time will compare the events taking place in their lives to what is written and with the help of the Holly Spirit they will get the meaning (that is maybe why we are warned not to add or subtract to Rev). Sometimes trying to do that beforehand leads to wrong conclusions. Say if somebody who lived 1000 years ago tried to figure out what the mark is, he could never think of a chip or a barcode placed on people. So who are the 10 nations? Who is that little horn? We still cannot figure out, can we really?
Thanks for the reply brother. I will try to answer to some.
1. A Rapture before the end? As I have said, also you stated, at the time of the rapture the condition of the world, life as usual, people dealing with their lives as always, christians warned not to look after their pleasure and cares of this life, definitely doesn't concur with the horrible conditions on earth in Revelation. So it has to be some other time. When? If the restrainer is the Holly Spirit then before the antichrist. If not, then sometime, probably after the first 3 and 1/2 years.
The parable of the 10 virgins also shows a normal life. How could all of those 10 virgins sleep at a time that christians are slaughtered? How could 2 (1 is raptured) be in the field or in modern terms in their works when christians will not be able to do any work unless they have the mark on them?
p2. Giannis Many who believe the pre-tribulation rapture theory will read things into verses to fit that belief and it throws off their timeline of Truth in the Lastdays prophecy.
You said "On the contrary at the 2nd coming huge catastrophes will be occurring on earth, millions will be killed by the antichrist, people will be scared to death for the things to come. The whole polital/economial system will collapse (the Babylon)"
(Lu. 21:25-26) You left out the next two verses ( Luke. 21:27-28) v27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" ( Mt. 24:30) "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" He comes here to (gather together) His elect ( Mt. 24:31) He is not riding a white horse to the earth here but we meet Him in the air, in the clouds the rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:15-17) The white horse is ( Rev. 19:11-16) TO THE EARTH!
This version in Luke is the same as ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation" This is the only verse in the Bible that tells us the Son of man (Jesus Christ) comes in the clouds AFTER the tribulation period but pre-tribulation rapture believers say this is the return on a white horse, it is not.
( 1 Thess. 4:15-17)
1) v16 The sound of a trumpet
2) v17 caught up (together) with them
3) v17 The Lord comes in the clouds
( Mt. 24:29-31)
1) v31 a sound of a (trumpet)
2) v31 they shall (gather together) His elect
3) v30 they shall see the (Son of man coming in the clouds)
( Rev. 19:11-16) v11 He is called Faithful and True. ( Mt. 24:30) He is called the Son of man
( Rev. 19:14) The armies which were in heaven follow Him from heaven to the earth on white horses ( Mt. 24:31) He comes in the clouds to gather together His elect.
These verses are showing us the #1 pre-tribulation rapture verse is in perfect alignment with ( Mt. 24:29-31) Immediately AFTER the tribulation.
We have to let the Scriptures speak for themselves Giannis.
Giannis thank you for replying to this post. I was just wondering if you read this post Giannis? I think I have shown very clearly that I believe Jesus Christ (the Son of man) comes After the tribulation period in the clouds ( Mt. 24:29-31) to gather together His elect, while we are at the marriage supper of the Lamb in the air or in heaven, the wrath of God is being poured out on the disobedient non-believers who were left on the earth. THEN when the marriage supper has ended Jesus comes back riding a white horse and we come back with Him. Thats 2 completely different times and the space in between them is the wrath of God happening on the earth. Jesus comes back on the white horse to end the wrath of God and start His 1000year reign on the earth.
You said of (Lu. 21:34-36) "How is it possible that Jesus warns us not to be in a state of pleasure and caring of this life when in the great tribulation christians will suffer, persecuted and get killed for their faith in God". I would have to disagree with your interpretation of that verse Giannis. Jesus is warning us ((not to become apart of)) that evil world during that time period. ( 1 Jn. 2:15-17) v36 "WATCH"
(Lu. 21:34-36) v35 "For as a (snare) shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" The word (snare) is #3803; it means a trap (as fastened by a noose or notch) a trick or statagem. The word [statagem] means (A scheme or maneuver designed to achieve an objective, as in surprising an enemy or deceving someone)
It sounds like there will be great deception, unseen tricks, or traps set by the evil during this time period.
You said "Please pay attention to v36, that ye may be accounted worthly to escape all these things that shall come to pass"
you left out the rest of the verse, it says "and to stand before the Son of man"
The Son of man comes in the clouds to gather together His elect in ( Mt. 24:29-31) IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
In ( Mt. 24:21-22) v21 "For then shall be great tribulation"
v22 Tells us "for the (elect's) sake those days shall be shortened"
The word (elect's) is #1588; it means select, by implying favorite, chosen, to select, make choice, choose (out) chosen.
God's elect are His favorite, His chosen ones in whom He will choose (out) ( Mt. 24:40-42) True Believers.
In ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation"
v30 "and they shall see the Son of man (Jesus Christ) coming (in the clouds) of heaven with power and great glory"
v31 "and they shall gather together his elect"
AFTER the tribulation is when the (elect) are gathered together.
In ( Rev. 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, ((a great multitude, which no man could number)), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".
( Rev. 7:14-17) v14 Tells us "These are they which ((came out of great tribulation)), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"
A great multitude that no man could number ((came out of great tribulation)), the Son of man (Jesus Christ) comes in the clouds to gather together His elect (Immediately AFTER the tribulation)
v17 Tells us "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall ((feed them)), and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes"
When will the Lamb feed them?
The marriage supper of the Lamb is when those who came out of great tribulation will be fed in ( Rev. 19:7-9)
A great multitude that no man could number comes out of great tribulation.
When God pours out His wrath on the earth no man will be able to enter into the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled, ( Rev. 15:7-8)
All seven vials full of the wrath of God will be poured out on the earth and no man will be able to enter into the temple.
Truth matters!
The falling away in grk is "apostasis". From apo(=from) and stasis=(a stationary point, a stand, a stop). So it litterally means one who keeps a distance from somebody/something. In ancient grk (but not modern grk) divorcement is "apostaseion". Apostaseion/divorce was a letter that men wrote for their wives whom they wanted to divorce, so those women were free to remarry. If they didn't have that paper they would had been called an adulterer and were in a danger to be stonned. So it was something for the benefit of the divorced women.
That word, apostaseion, although originates from the same root words as apostasis, in Thessalonians it has not the same meaning. It doesn't mean a divorce but rather means the church who keeps a distance, separates herself from their head, the Lord. I believe it means the old christian nations who at that time turn their back to God and become atheists or/and they turn away from the right beliefs trying to compromise the Word of God with the beliefs of the world.
GBU
I'm not sure where you got that from or how you came up with that meaning, its not in the Strong's Concordance.
The meaning of the words (falling away) in the Strong's Concordance is #646; in Greek and it means feminine (gender) of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] falling away, forsake.
feminine (gender) of the same as #647; #647 means something separative, i.e divorce, (writing of) divorcement.
Even if we don't use the #647 meaning of the word which means (writing of) divorcement then we still have the word ["apostasy"] in the #646 meaning. The word (apostasy) means (1) Abandonment of one's religious faith. (2) An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from, one's faith. (3) In theology, a total abandonment of the Christian faith. If we abandonment our Christian faith we turn from God, we FALL AWAY.
This just happens to be when the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed and sitting in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God, that will be the cause of the departing from the Christian faith, the falling away.
I would really like to here what your thoughts are about the #1 pre-tribulation rapture verses ( 1 Thess. 4:15-17) being almost in perfect alignment with the Son of man coming in the clouds to gather together His elect Immediately AFTER the tribulation in ( Mt. 24:29-31)?
When Jesus returns riding a white horse in ( Rev. 19:11-16) there is no mention of (1) coming in the clouds) (2) no sound of a trumpet. (3) no gathering together of anybody. Here He comes ((from heaven)) to the earth.
We meet Him in the clouds in ( 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and in ( Mt. 24:29-31) these are the same events.
Thank you Giannis for your comments.
God Bless.
Sorry I have done a mistake. Grk for "apostasy" is apostaseia", feminine as you said. The etymology of the word, its very literal meaning is as I have written, but it is used for all sort of things as described by Strong's concordance.
The word "apostasis" is used in grk for "distance" . So the literal meaning is a condition of one or a team who holds a distance (figuratively abandonment, desertion etc) from someone/something, whether this is a religious belief, a political belief, any system really. The anc grk for divorce is "apostaseion", neutral. It comes from the same component words. In Thess it doesn't have the meaning of divorce, but Christians who abandoned their religion or the true faith.
Brother if verses that show a normal life on earth before rapture didn't exist then I would definitely come with a post tribulation rapture, but they do exist and do not fit to Revelation, so there has to be another explanation I believe. Otherwise how could someone interprete those? Again what do you think the restrainer may be, any idea?
GBU
I am not sure what the withholdeth, or the restrainer is Giannis, but see what you think of this. I have heard many say its the Holy Spirit but I don't think it is the Holy Spirit.
I have heard some say its Michael the archangel. This seems to be a more logical answer to me, here's why.
When this is happening that will definitely be the Lastdays, Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth by Michael in ( Rev. 12:7-9)
Satan is the one who gives the beast power and his seat, and great authority in ( Rev. 13:2) also in ( Rev. 13:5) the beast is given power to continue ((forty and two months or 3 1/2 years)) I believe this will be when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation. That would put great tribulation at a 3 1/2 year time period (not 7 years) and it will be shortened for the elects sake. I do believe the time of the beginning of sorrows in ( Mt. 24:4-14) is the first 3 1/2 years and I think we are living it right now.
Also if we look at ( Dan. 12:1) We see "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: ((and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation)) even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book".
A time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation sounds a lot like ( Mt. 24:15) and ( Mt. 24:21-22) v21 "For then shall be great tribulation ((such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be".
I'm not really sure about this, what do you think Giannis?
Also if you don't mind, would you please provide those verses that show a normal life on earth before the rapture?
We are living in a time period right now Giannis where nothing is normal anymore! evil has taken over!
Blessings to you.
1. About archangel Michael and Israel. I agree with you that this refers to the persecution of Jews by antichrist. God will send Michael to protect them, this is the incident whit woman in the wilderness, a figure of speech for keeping someone away to protect them.
2. About life just before rapture when I said it will be a normal life I meant about material things not the spiritual condition of the world. Paul tells us that the people of the last times will be the worse of all. It seems that the material condition of people is the opposite of their spiritual condition. The richer they are the less moral they become. It is true that when people suffer then they show more sympathy and mercy to others. That's why the previous generations were poorer but at the same time more moral than today's world
In Matth 24:29 says that immediately after the tribulation the sun, moon, stars will go dark and the powers of the heavens will be shaken and then Jesus comes. So the tribulation is after or at the same time as God's wrath, not before. and just before Jesus arrival
In Matth 24:38 says , "38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Eating, drinking, marrying, building (says another gospel). These are activities of a normal life. People seem to be careless and unprepared and Jesus' coming will surprise them. This is not obviously the condition of the world during the time that the Revelation describes.
The above 2 scriptures seem to contradict each other if we assume a single coming of Jesus. So it has to be 2 separate comings. When is the first? Before the tribulation starts, ie normal life
The second? After the tribulation ends.
When is the tribulation? It cannot be before God's wrath because after the trib. Jesus comes.
The tribulation period and the wrath of God are different periods, to not get this right will throw off the timeline for the Lastdays prophecy in many ways.
In (Lu 17:27-30) v29 "But ((the same day)) that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all". Instead of focusing on them eating, and drinking and marrying, and giving in marriage, put your focus on THE SAME DAY. The same day Lot went out it rained fire and brimstone! The wrath of God starts the same day Jesus comes.
( 2 Thess 1:7-10) v7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels".
v8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God" (In flaming fire taking vengeance on them is pouring out His wrath on them) The word (wrath) is #3709; it means violent passion, punishment, anger, indignation, ((vengeance)).
v9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power".
( John 3:36) In this verse He that believeth will be those who are taken in ( Mt. 24:40-42) the ones caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds in ( 1 Thess 4:16-17) which happens "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" ( Mt 24:29-31)
Those who (believeth not) are the one's left in ( Mt. 24:40-42) the wrath of God abideth on them, the disobedient ones in ( Eph 5:6) and ( Col 3:6) and ( Rom 1:18)
Believers receive everlasting life!
non-believers receive the wrath of God!
( Zephaniah 1:14-18) v14 "The great day of the LORD is near" v15 "That day is a day of wrath".
These verses show us that God's wrath comes the same day Jesus comes.
( Rom 1:18) ( Eph 5:6) ( Col 3:6) ( Rev 6:16-17) God's wrath comes on bad, disobedient, non-believers in Jesus Christ.
( 1 Thess 5:9) Believers in Jesus are not appointed to wrath.
( 1Thess 1:10) The word (delivered) is 4506; it means to rush or draw (for oneself) to rescue.
( Rom 5:9) "being now justified by his blood we shall be saved from wrath through him"
God Bless you.
Greatings In Christ JESUS
You wrote>>Satan is the one who gives the beast power and his seat, and great authority in ( Rev. 13:2) also in ( Rev. 13:5) the beast is given power to continue ((forty and two months or 3 1/2 years)) I believe this will be when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation.
Let me make a summary of your posts to see whether I have understood you correctly.
Some time in the future the antichrist appears in the world. The last 7 year period starts. Sometime during that time as the antichrist has aquired power as the leader of a union of the most powerful nations on earth, he starts placing his mark on people. Then the tribulation of christians starts. Sometime during that time Jesus Christ comes and gathers His saints in the air. The marriage of Jesus with His church takes place in Heaven. At that time on earth many catastrophies due to God's wrath start occuring. At the end Jesus with His saints come back on earth and all things end here. So according to you who or what is the restrainer that hinders the antichrist appearing in the world's system?
I have an objection about the above brother. On Rev 21:2 it seems that the marriage has not occured yet, as if it is going to occur on the new earth, "1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.".
But it may mean that the marriage has already taken place? If the marriage has alredy taken place before Jesus' final arriving here, then no people will be saved during the millenium? During the millenium it seems to me that there will be 2 kinds of people, the marked and the unmarked ones, because I don't believe that the antichrist will manage to mark all people. And not all unmarked people will be saved, they have to believe in Jesus, too. Because, say a muslim who refused to receive the mark and makes it to the end, is he going to be saved?
Anyway. If we assume that the restrainer is the Holly Spirit, and this is a very good assumption, then the church has to go together. This is where the pretribulation belief mainly relys on. So to you what else may the restrainer be?
( Rev. 19:15) Tells us "and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and ((wrath of Almighty God))". Jesus ends the wrath of God here and begins His 1000 year reign on the earth. Im not sure where you came up with nobody will be saved out of the Millenium, I didn't say that. Nobody will be saved during the wrath of God ( Rev. 15:8-9) tell us that "no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled".
( Rev. 19:19) "And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army".
( Rev. 19:20) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet,. .. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone".
( Rev. 20:1-3) v2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years". Satan, nor the beast, nor the false prophet will be present during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.
THEN ( Rev. 20:7-9) v7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison".
( Rev. 20:10) "And the devil that deceiveth them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone"
( Rev. 20:11-15) The great white throne judgment.
All this happens before ( Rev. 21:2) where you said the marriage supper had not occurred yet.
This is a fairly easy timeline to follow when reading it straight through.
see p2
You asked: Do Believers go through great tribulation?
Yes, they do. Get ready, it will be the last seven years of the Devil's world. It is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of this devilish world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching.
The journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last seven years, and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt. By the way, there will be two BEASTS reigning in the Earth, one Gentile Beast and another Jewish, that is a false lamb, a false messiah, AN IMPOSTOR, as prophesied JESUS- John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11KJV. The 1st 42 months of the last seven years, it will be ruled by the FIRST Beast enthroned in Jerusalem by the false messiah as is written in Rev.13:2 and 5-KJV. The 2nd Beast -the false messiah-will rule the 2nd half of the last seven years. Get ready.
Daniel in his prophecy, warned, saying: Daniel 12:11-12KJV
11"From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (yes, it shall be taken away because there was a certain period of time to cease the sacrifice or be taken out of the way, the restraining, by the way, the sacrifice of JESUS have lasted until this current time or around 720.000 days, and now will cease) and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. JESUS warned us: Matthew 24:15-"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)if not understand, it may complicate, it is what I think), after all it will be 1290 very tense days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days
The great tribulation will not be a 7 year time period according to the Words of Jesus in these verses.
Blessings to you.
Luke 21:34-36,
"34And take heed to yourselves (believers), lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
A few points on the above.
1. How is it possible that Jesus warns us not be in a state of pleasure and carings of this life when in the great tribulation christians will suffer, persecuted and get killed for their faith in God? How is it possible to be involved in matters of this life when christians will not accept the beast's mark and eventually won't be able even to survive in such conditions?
2. Please pay attention to verse 36, "... that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass..."
3. I have read in older posts that God will preserve us like He did with Hebrews in Egypt. But at that time they were all concetrated at a place, the Land of Goshen. In the future we will be dispersed throughout the whole earth, it is a different thing altogether.
To me it is clear that the time when Jesus comes to take His Bribe is at a different time from His 2nd coming on earth. The condition of the world in those two cases will be completely different.
At the rapture the world is the ususal normal world. People will be involved with their everyday life, not fearing for what comes next, unprepared. Why? Because life will be as usual. Matthew 24:36-40.
On the contrary at the 2nd coming huge catastrophies will be occuring on earth, millions will be killed by the antichrist, people will be scared to death for the things to come. The whole polital/economical system will collapse(the Babylon), Luke 21:25-26 and events on Revelation
2 different conditions on earth, 2 diferent events.
GBU
The question exists; of course if all those left behind are unbelievers or if some have either not produced fruit at present and ARE His children. That could result from living in unrepentant sin; perhaps for quite some time. As far as a lifestyle of sin; it is certain that there are some who not only will miss the Rapture but continue on afterwards and be deceived by "THE LIE" and ultimately worship the Antichrist because they didn't LOVE the truth even though they knew it. The main reasoning I have is to have garments in the first place we must be saved; making them white in the blood of martyrs is basically the only way to produce fruit in the Tribulation. God has created us for good works; but the lukewarm church today is largely indistinguishable from the world. God knows ultimately if we are saved; His sheep or not.
I would say it is possible the firstfruits would be indicative of ALL those from Christ Himself; then those who rose out of their graves at the Resurrection; then the "last trump" Resurrection and Rapture event; then the 144,000 being (likely) translated and finally the two witnesses (can't remember which comes first). Anyway; some will not be Resurrected it apears in Revelation 20 until the Trib is over. Some of these could be those left behind who may either have already been believers or new believers. Those at His coming indicate the Second Coming as to those physically alive or Resurrected at that time.
The O.T. timing of the OLD TESTAMENT saints seems to show their Resurrection right around the midpoint of the Trib; PERHAPS indicating a different timing from the rest of the church saints. One difference not mentioned yet here is the sounding of THE archangel Michael at the Rapture; as opposed to angels (plural) at the Resurrection of the elect later on in the Trib.
There is probably a lot more I could say. It is clear that Christ coming at a time of relative prosperity is likely showing an event before the Trib begins. That also fits into the Restrainer being removed; which I would contend as others indicates the Holy Spirit's ministry during the Church Age; as compared with the signs and wonders predominating afterwards. I don't believe even if the Rapture is "secret" many open graves can be explained away or hidden (even if we are considered "reprogrammed" as the unenlightened ones). We probably will be considered the aliens when Christ returns in my opinion.
No matter what opinion we have on the subject being prepared to die with Christ NOW is in order; and that starts with dying to self a little more each day. Anyone who thinks the Seal Judgments aren't too bad need a serious reality check. If we have to be in it it's one thing; none of us should WANT to go through the Trib if logical
Very wise words Richard!
You see it as, if a pre-tribulation rapture doesn't happen you will be prepared. Many, many pre-trib believers think its 100% going to happen there are no other options. No preparations, mainly what should be spiritual strengthening as putting on the whole armour of God ( Eph. 6:10-17) to stand against the (wiles) of the devil ( Eph. 6:11) in the evil day ( Eph. 6:13)
I'm sure you're right about nobody wanting to go through the tribulation period as it will be a time of testing like there has never been before. I think its much better to go into something with a knowledge of what is coming at you, rather than expecting to be taken out of a bad situation, but then having to go through that bad situation along with pure deception and evil, and not expecting it.
( 2 Thess. 1-3) v3 Tells us "for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away) first. The words (falling away) #646; it means defection from truth [properly the state] ("apostasy"), forsake, something separative, divorce, (writing of) divorcement. Those (falling away) are True Believers or they would not receive a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ.
It just so happens this (writing of) divorcement (falling away) happens when the man of sin is revealed. ( 2 Thess. 2:4) "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".
Do you see what could be happening here Richard if there is no pre-tribulation rapture?
Blessings to you.
Arguments have come up here as to the statement in Thessalonians and Corinthians in regard to ALL the church being raptured at the time of the Resurrection of the rest of the Church saints. This; however would in some sense make verses such as the one in Luke about praying to be worthy to escape moot. Clearly not ALL saints; in fact only few meet the Malachi 3 "Book of Rememberance" status in regard to them speaking often of the event and fearing God; etc. We also need to consider the "white and unspotted/unwrinkled" state in Ephesians discussing those who are part of the Bride; as well as those in Rev. 4 who appear as "kings and priests"; compared with the fate of those whose garments are tarnished and appear to have the made white through martyrdom as Rev. 6 indicates.
Clearly complexities arise as to whether these are some of the Christians left behind; or purely a new batch of saints after the witness of the 144,000. Daniel shows the difference; saints WILL be overcome whereas now in this era the gates of hell will not prevail against the church (I'll let you look up the verses). Perhaps going through the fire so to speak is simply limited to the Bema Seat or it involves being purified along with those Jews in Jacob's trouble. Surely the churches appear absent after Rev. 3 ends; the first part of chapter 4 seems to indicate that. There are also tricky verses later on such as that in Rev. 19 where the thief in the night analogy of being naked is indicated. That could be the last holdouts that get in "as through the fire
So if we want to include all relevant verses in an explanation we have to have 2 separate comings of Jesus
2. Is rapture a reward or salvation? I would rather use the term a salvation completed. What about the 5 unwise virgins who will go through the tribulation? May be saved or may not. It depends on the decisions they will make in their lives, whether to receive the mark or not. Many say, in my opinion lightly, that they will stand during that period. Really? One day we fast and we raid the fridge in the evening and we believe that we will stay strong during that time of starvation? When our babies cry for food, we will just stay strong watching them starving to death and not receive the mark? Are we serious? When we will watch our loved ones dying without any access to medicine, doctors, hospitals we will just play it strong in faith? Science fiction. Many will accept the mark. One should be exceptionally strong (x many times) to stand the great tribulation. Even in the ancient church thousands of christians prefered to swear in the emperor's name and avoid the lions. Do we think that all martyred? No, not. A major problem in the ancient church was what to do with all those who committed obedience to the emperor but then repented(?) and came back to the church? Should they accepte them back or not? Some churches never accepted them back, some did. So let's not anwer lightly. Some will stand, some will not. So the rapture is not really a reward but a secured salvation. If we are left out ? God help us
3. About those 144000. I believe they are the firstfruits of the nation of Israel. That woman who is pregnant in Christ can not be the church, because for us Christ has already been born in our hearts. It has to be Israel. But I may be wrong
About the other details brother in your post, I can not really say anything, as I said I am not studying the eschatology enthusiastically. Thanks brother, I appreciate your respone, sorry I can not answer your points
You raise many points in your post. You seem to have studied eschatology in details. But not me. Everytime I have tried to place all those events at the end in an order I ended up having a headache, so I have quited really. But I know some general things. Daniel at the end of his book writes that the angel who was revealing him the future said " Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.".
To me this may mean that nobody can really translate these last events clearly. As time for the fulfillment of these events approaches then people who will be living during that time will compare the events taking place in their lives to what is written and with the help of the Holly Spirit they will get the meaning (that is maybe why we are warned not to add or subtract to Rev). Sometimes trying to do that beforehand leads to wrong conclusions. Say if somebody who lived 1000 years ago tried to figure out what the mark is, he could never think of a chip or a barcode placed on people. So who are the 10 nations? Who is that little horn? We still cannot figure out, can we really?
Thanks for the reply brother. I will try to answer to some.
1. A Rapture before the end? As I have said, also you stated, at the time of the rapture the condition of the world, life as usual, people dealing with their lives as always, christians warned not to look after their pleasure and cares of this life, definitely doesn't concur with the horrible conditions on earth in Revelation. So it has to be some other time. When? If the restrainer is the Holly Spirit then before the antichrist. If not, then sometime, probably after the first 3 and 1/2 years.
The parable of the 10 virgins also shows a normal life. How could all of those 10 virgins sleep at a time that christians are slaughtered? How could 2 (1 is raptured) be in the field or in modern terms in their works when christians will not be able to do any work unless they have the mark on them?
You said "On the contrary at the 2nd coming huge catastrophes will be occurring on earth, millions will be killed by the antichrist, people will be scared to death for the things to come. The whole polital/economial system will collapse (the Babylon)"
(Lu. 21:25-26) You left out the next two verses ( Luke. 21:27-28) v27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" ( Mt. 24:30) "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" He comes here to (gather together) His elect ( Mt. 24:31) He is not riding a white horse to the earth here but we meet Him in the air, in the clouds the rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:15-17) The white horse is ( Rev. 19:11-16) TO THE EARTH!
This version in Luke is the same as ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation" This is the only verse in the Bible that tells us the Son of man (Jesus Christ) comes in the clouds AFTER the tribulation period but pre-tribulation rapture believers say this is the return on a white horse, it is not.
( 1 Thess. 4:15-17)
1) v16 The sound of a trumpet
2) v17 caught up (together) with them
3) v17 The Lord comes in the clouds
( Mt. 24:29-31)
1) v31 a sound of a (trumpet)
2) v31 they shall (gather together) His elect
3) v30 they shall see the (Son of man coming in the clouds)
( Rev. 19:11-16) v11 He is called Faithful and True. ( Mt. 24:30) He is called the Son of man
( Rev. 19:14) The armies which were in heaven follow Him from heaven to the earth on white horses ( Mt. 24:31) He comes in the clouds to gather together His elect.
These verses are showing us the #1 pre-tribulation rapture verse is in perfect alignment with ( Mt. 24:29-31) Immediately AFTER the tribulation.
We have to let the Scriptures speak for themselves Giannis.
Blessings to you, and all who seek Truth.
You said of (Lu. 21:34-36) "How is it possible that Jesus warns us not to be in a state of pleasure and caring of this life when in the great tribulation christians will suffer, persecuted and get killed for their faith in God". I would have to disagree with your interpretation of that verse Giannis. Jesus is warning us ((not to become apart of)) that evil world during that time period. ( 1 Jn. 2:15-17) v36 "WATCH"
(Lu. 21:34-36) v35 "For as a (snare) shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" The word (snare) is #3803; it means a trap (as fastened by a noose or notch) a trick or statagem. The word [statagem] means (A scheme or maneuver designed to achieve an objective, as in surprising an enemy or deceving someone)
It sounds like there will be great deception, unseen tricks, or traps set by the evil during this time period.
You said "Please pay attention to v36, that ye may be accounted worthly to escape all these things that shall come to pass"
you left out the rest of the verse, it says "and to stand before the Son of man"
The Son of man comes in the clouds to gather together His elect in ( Mt. 24:29-31) IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
What will be escaped will be the wrath of God.
see p2
Remember: the disciples questioned two things with JESUS: Matt. 24:3
1 - what shall be the SIGN of thy coming?
2 - and of the END of the world?
We cannot forget the prophetic message, and the warnings of our Lord JESUS, about the two above signs, as follow: Matt.24:4-8
1- Pre-tribulation Period - Beginning of sorrows
(My view: We are already living/ we already entered in this period. I'm awaked.
JESUS listed seven terrible events as the beginning of sorrows, and they are the signs of the END of the world, and JESUS's coming:What signs?
1- Appearance and manifestation of false Christs/false messiah ( John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11-a false lamb);
2- Wars and rumours of war ; (fulfilling LITERALLY);
3- nation shall rise against nation ; (in process / processing)
4- and kingdom against kingdom; (Kingdom of GOD X Kingdom of Devil - Rev.11:15 and 12:7-12- Take a look.) ;
5- famines ; (in process / it's processing)
6- pestilences ; (more recent - Coronavirus-COVID 19. Global cases
Updated Jul 18. confirmed 767,972,197 - deaths 6,950,642)
and
7- earthquakes in divers places. (more recent - Turkey)
JESUS said: 8-all these are the beginning of sorrows.
There will not be any gap between the period of sorrows(Pre-Tribulation)and the beginning of Tribulation, this will be sequential:
2 -THE BEGINNING OF THE TRIBULATION PERIOD
JESUS said: Matt.24:9-16
9 Then shall they(they whom?)deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise(false preachers of GOD's Word (sects, false movements gospel, dead churches-Rev.3:1,etc.)and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound(consequence of the apostate environment),the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall ENDURE unto the END,the same shall be saved
But the worst comes
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?