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The blood of Jesus Christ the son of the living God gives life to a dead man and provides atonement for one sins
As it is written
( Ephesians 1:7, ESV)
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
And it's by grace and faith alone that we are saved and none of of our works
Amen
Repent of your sins.
acts 20;21
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Thank you, it has been a while and it is always good to fellowship with everyone here.
Hello Kstott. When the Bible speaks of blood, whether of animals or man, it denotes the miracle of life given us by God; "for the life of the flesh is in the blood" ( Leviticus 17:11). As all mankind are born with sinful flesh, with a propensity to sin & violate the holy requirements of God ( Romans 3:23), God being both loving & just, is compelled to either condemn us or forgive us. To condemn would be simple, as we fully deserve the penalty of our sins ( Romans 6:23), but God reached out to us in our miserable hopeless state & provided a way of hope, healing & restoration.
To His people Israel of old, God instituted the sacrificial system where the high priest would offer the blood of animals to atone for their sins & reconcile them to God ( Leviticus 8:15; Exodus 30:10). It was a case of the people either dying in their sins or that a substitute was provided on their behalf so their lives were spared. At this time, animals were sacrificed & their blood shed (i.e. their life given), & this was accepted by God to forgive them. But this was done yearly, because the blood offering of animals could never be permanent as this was man's offering to God, to stay God's Hand from them. But God had planned a future day, when He Himself would offer His Sacrifice to fully atone & redeem His people - & this Sacrifice would be made available to both Jew & Gentile. And this Sacrifice was God Himself, in sending His Word to become man ( John 1:1-14) & giving His Life as the only Pure & Perfect Sacrifice that would be fully acceptable to Him.
This is a classic example of why we must read the Whole Bible interpreting scripture with scripture to come to Truth. And how the Bible is its own interpreter.
When we fail to do this we are almost certain to come to wrong understanding. Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke he not. The Old Testament Ceremonial Laws were a "historical parable". A shadow pointing to the substance.
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Yes, "every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man(JESUS) after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
The sacrifice of JESUS has lasted around 730.000 days, and has prevented until now the appearance and manifestation of the man of sin, the son of perdition (an ex-cherub). "Who (will) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God(will)sitteth in the temple of God(in the great city of Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified),shewing himself that he is God.Paul Apostle said:2 Thes.2:6-12:
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (The time is from now on, in his time)
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let(but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way, that is the sacrifice of JESUS), until he be taken out of the way.(the sacrifice of JESUS will be take away)
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed(a false messiah, AN IMPOSTOR, John 5:43-47 and Revelation 12:11),whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth,and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the Truth(they received not JESUS), that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause GOD shall send them strong delusion,that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the Truth(they believed not in JESUS),but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Get ready,stay in Revelation 11:15-18
GOD bless
No. The sacrifices of the Old Testament ceremonial law did not forgive their sins.
Hebrews 8:3-6 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Genesis 13:14,15 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Hebrews 10:11,12 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
The verses you shared from Hebrews chapter 10 are important & particularly verse 11, "And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins", shows us that those sacrifices could never deal with the sin problem as Jesus only could. They had to be 'offered oftentimes', whereas Jesus' Sacrifice was only offered once, as He, by His Own Sacrifice, fully met God's demands for the sinner's absolution.
Where sins of ignorance (of the Law) were committed, the sinner(s) brought in their sacrificial animal for the priest to perform the sacrifice unto the LORD. We read in Leviticus chapter 4 about this; and after the offering unto the LORD was completed, "...the priest shall make an atonement for his (the person's) sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him": Leviticus 4:35. Who forgives the sinner this sin? Was it the priest or God? So, there must be a forgiveness of sins committed under this system (not the wilful sins of breaking the commandments which required death); but I understand that God's Forgiveness was based on contrition for sin, of offering the sacrifice, & this was both specific & temporary - for the priests had to do this for all sin & each year for the sins of Israel. And all these pointed the people, maybe with limited understanding, to the coming Sacrifice Who would remove such a temporary covering of sin; where the Sacrificed Lamb ever stands before God's Throne and where sinners saved through the Cross simply confessed their sin & were sure of God's continual Forgiveness, based not on what they could possibly do, but all that Christ has done.
This is how I read the Bible interpreting itself: the OT was just as important - where sinners found forgiveness there as well.
When God said that their sins were forgiven He didn't have in mind sacrifices of animals (which worked as a figure) that can not remove sins, but He had in mind Jesus' sacrifice that was going to take place at the proper time. That is why the OT saints weren't going to Heaven but into Hades into the center of earth in Abraham's bosom and they were kept there till Jesus' resurrection. After Jesus resurrected from the dead then and only then those souls were eligible to go to Heaven (which means that at that time were really forgiven) and since then they are kept under the altar in the Temple of God in Heaven, under Jesus' sacrifice that is. If Jesus' sacrifice had never taken place (an imaginary senario) then no human would ever go to Heaven, no matter how many thousands of animals were ever sacrificed every year. Abraham's bosom was a temporary place of comfort where souls were residing untill the remission of sins was to take place by Jesus' Blood.GBU
Hi brother Giannis & thank you for your comment. What you have written is correct, as far as 'sacrifices of animals could not remove sins', & of course, the coming Perfect Sacrifice in Jesus was the fulfilment of what those old sacrifices pointed to. We can't ever deny that.
But the problem we have here is: we know it was the LORD's design for a sacrificial system which ultimately pointed to Jesus' Sacrifice, but what good or benefit did those sacrifices have for the OT priests & the people? Why did God require meticulous observance of every facet of those ordained sacrifices, if the people yet remained in their sins, unforgiven & likely for many of the disobedient ones, destined for hell? And then as you stated, the righteous at that time went to Abraham's side, & we could also include those such as Moses, David, & others; these also had to abide by those rules - if they refused to abide, counting the sacrifices of little importance, would their righteous living & walk with the LORD be sufficient to save them?
What I'm considering here is: since all people can only be saved through Jesus Christ's Death, then there must be more to those OT sacrifices that were specifically instituted than just a pointing to the Perfect One. True, people had to know about their sin, the need for punishment for any disobedience, repentance, the provision of a substitute for them (the sacrificial animal), but also God's acceptance & forgiveness. They could know all of these, yet if God still refused them & only forgave them in Hades, post Jesus' Death, then it stands that they would remain condemned on Earth no matter how many sacrifices they performed - all their obedience, all the priests work in applying the blood to the horns of the altar, all the sacrifice aroma ascending up to God which pleased Him, would count for nothing except as religious acts that served the sinner no purpose - only to God alone.
Therefore I submit, that those who did abide by God's Instructions pertaining to the sacrifices, were forgiven & accepted by Him, being held in Hades upon their death, but awaited the awakening to eternal life, even as Jesus made those sacrifices complete for them through His Own Sacrifice. For if they weren't forgiven at the first (i.e. their sins were covered before God, for He cannot overlook sin), then their second part would be alongside the rich man in torment who received no forgiveness. If their sins were not covered (i.e. they remained unforgiven), then they would stand condemned, die in their sins, and Jesus' Sacrifice could never apply to them. But Jesus' Death did apply because it looked back to the sacrifices that spake of Him & pointed to Him alone.
Therefore, even if Jesus' Coming would not be till many centuries/decades later for them, those of obedient Israel could still stand confident before the LORD, that their performance of the sacrifices that pleased Him, their righteous standing before God & full salvation later, was certain. Yet, as we know, most of them were unfaithful in spite of God receiving & blessing them, so suffering & captivity were their lot - even what they had before God, they lost - but those truly IN Christ Jesus now can never be lost: Hebrews 10:12,14,17, "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of GodFor by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctifiedAnd their sins and iniquities will I remember no more".
I have read your comment but I still have some things that prevent me from believing that the Israelites were forgiven during the OT era.
My thoughts are: We know that sin separates us from God. Father God even took His eyes away from His crucified Son as He was laying on the cross full with mankind's sins. God can not live with sin, with sinful people. So we go back to the OT. Why did God send the "saints" (as considered in the OT) of the OT into Hades and not in Heaven to live together with Him if they were sinless, forgiven? You said He didn't send them together with that rich man to be in torment. Yes but He couldn't do that to people who strived to live according to His commandements (but still failed/sinned sometimes). That would be unjust. Those people had never heard of Jesus' Blood (which would occur centuaries later) and they had no escape exit from their sins. But on the other hand God couldn't move them to Heaven with Him since they had sins. So God in His wisdom found a way out. He created a place of comfort in Hades, a place of temporary residence for the rightous people of the OT where they waitng for the right time to come, the time of Jesus' Resurrection when they were carried by Jesus into Heaven since their sins were now covered by His Blood. I think this was God's plan. So why did God ordered those sacrifices and things in the OT? They pointed to Jesus' sacrifice, a shadow of things to come. So were they of no real use? Since they couldn't erase sins, what was their actual use apart from being symbolic of Jesus' sacrifice? It was not the sacrifices that sent people to Abraham's bosom, but obedience to His commandements. This is the way I understand it, Chris.
"Why did God send the OT saints into Hades & not in Heavenif they were sinless, forgiven?" Firstly, I don't believe that to be forgiven brings on a state of sinlessness, whichever side of the Cross we are at. In fact, the only time we are sinless (freed from all sin) is when we enter Heaven, where no sin can reside. Secondly, I never see that Heaven is the destination of any of the OT saints - it had to be Hades, & of course the only view given us is that of the rich man & Lazarus. So, those who were disobedient to God/faithless in the OT, presumably went to the 'dark' side of Hades & those counted faithful & obedient, joined Abraham & the others mentioned earlier.
And so I agree, that Hades was, for some, a "temporary residence", till the Work of the Cross was completed & the New Covenant ushered in through His Blood. Their sins were now fully dealt with by that Sacrifice, just as ours are fully dealt with now post-Cross (i.e. we don't need a Hades 'stop-over', but our spirits - spirits now released from sin's grip - go into the LORD's Presence).
"Why did God order those sacrifices & things in the OT?" Mainly, as you said (& we all believe), that they were a shadow & pointed to the Supreme Sacrifice yet to come. And true, those Sacrifices could never deal with or erase sins, but were still required to be performed. Why? Just a pointing to Jesus, or also through obedience to every Command of God plus to the Sacrifices, could they be found acceptable? Their sins were now covered - God turned His Face from destroying them - He forgave them whilst they remained obedient & awaiting Jesus' Sacrifice that only could blot out & cancel their sin. If they remained under God's covering, they had to know His Forgiveness & continued blessing - for those who sinned/lived in disobedience, were not forgiven but faced His punishment or death since the blood of animals were of no use to them.
Romans 3:10,11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
These verses apply to ALL MANKIND. whether they lived in Old Testament or New Testament times. And for God to forgive any sin of any kind at any time is for that sin to have been paid for. And all of the sacrifices of the Old Testament could never pay the penalty demanded by the Law of God for any sin of any kind at any time.
Forgiveness of sin has everything to do with Salvation itself. Any Old Testament Believer was "saved" just like any New Testament Believer. That is, Christ must have "paid for their sins" and that Salvation must have been applied to them by making them Born Again. And that is ALL the work of God Alone, Grace Alone.
John 3:3,4 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? John 3:9,10 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Nicodemus was an "Old Testament" Jew under the Ceremonial Laws.
So again, Salvation, the forgiveness of sin, any sin of any kind in any time can only be forgiven if we have become Born Again by God's Grace Alone.
The keeping of the Ceremonial Laws, the keeping of any Law of God could never "save" anyone or forgive any sin at any time in history. Abel's sacrifice did not forgive his sins, did not save him. Abel's sacrifice was acceptable to God because God had "saved" him. Cain's offering was not because Gid had not saved him.
But to yours, I'll refer: "Forgiveness of sin has everything to do with Salvation itself. Any Old Testament Believer was "saved" just like any New Testament Believer. That is, Christ must have "paid for their sins" and that Salvation must have been applied to them by making them Born Again. And that is ALL the work of God Alone, Grace Alone." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand your statement as, 'the OT believers (within the OT framework) were still saved people, since Christ's Sacrifice, not having occurred yet, still cleansed them as well. That even within the OT economy, just as Nicodemus was, they too could still receive Christ's salvation & experience re-birth'.
If I've understood this correctly, & hoping that I haven't, then I would refute it. I believe that the old sacrificial system looked forward to the day of that Perfect Sacrifice, but the application of Jesus' Blood was only accomplished at His Death & Resurrection and by the Power of the given Holy Spirit. The OT believers knew nothing of such cleansing, re-birth, or deliverance until the Work of the Cross was accomplished - they remained in their sins, saved only by God's special Providence upon them alone giving them hope ( Psalm 130). Those, like Nicodemus, who were alive in Jesus' day, received the Word concerning re-birth. But like all those before him, Nicodemus (had he turned to Jesus then) would still only experience Christ's Salvation after the Work was finished & the Holy Spirit given. I understand that the shed Blood of Jesus applied only to those who came under it; and of the deceased OT believers in God, Christ's Blood availed, "by (the) one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified": all who have been set apart by God, whether alive then or now, or even deceased before Christ, have their redemption made complete in His Blood.
I think you have understood my statement that you quote correctly.
Every OT believer that God saved became "Born Again", just like every NT believer. There is no difference.
But certainly not everyone of OT Israel that observed the Ceremonial Laws was save. In fact, we know from the Bible that only a tiny remnant out of all the 12 (or 13) tribes became saved. The Pharisees were fanatical about keeping the Ceremonial Law. Did that forgive their sins.certainly not.
And I Chris, find no Biblical support for your understanding of the Salvation of Old Testament Believers.
What you have said is not supported when comparing scripture with scripture throughout the WHOLE Bible. And your understanding does not address the many verses I have quoted regarding this subject and stems, I believe and am sorry to say, from a failure to recognize that that the Bible Alone and in its Entirety is, in fact, the ONE TRUE GODPEL OF SALVATION.
When you say that the Holy Spirit was not active in Salvation during the OT you are in essence saying that God was not active in Salvation.
When you say that the there was some efficacy toward Salvation in the sacrifices of the OT it is like saying that there is some efficacy in water baptism during the Church Age toward Salvation. And that is a Gospel of Grace plus Works which CANNOT save.
Noah was a sinner, just like everyone that God saves during the NT. "But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD." Genesis 6:8; just like every True Believer throughout the history of the world. And when Noah died physically, his body returned to the dust and he went to be with Christ in Heaven in his soul existence, just like every True Believer throughout the history of the world. He did not go to a place called Hades. Why? Because God had given him a new Resurrected Soul when God saved him, just like every True Believer throughout the history of the world. And the basis for Noah's Salvation was the Atonement of Christ, God Himself, Just like every true believer throughout the history of the world.
So once again, Chris, there is one and only one Salvation. One and only one True Gospel. And that gospel is circumscribed by the Bible ALONE and it's ENTIRETY.
Thanks David0921. I'm sorry that I did not address the Scriptures you gave earlier as my comment would have been too long.
So to Revelation 13:8: "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". I understand that the Lamb of God was to be the Sacrifice for mankind's sins, preordained/predestined even before the worlds were framed together. This verse's central point is that Jesus was brought forth as God's Lamb purely for the purpose of sacrificial death in demonstration of God's Love. Those who now under the Blood (OT & NT saints) are written in that Book of Life, otherwise referred to as the Lamb's Book of Life.
Mark 4:33,34 & Psalm 78:2: "parables". I understand that you equate the mention of 'parable' in these references as having the same meaning. That is not always the case. The parables that Jesus spoke were simple stories people could understand & relate to, but they pointed to the intended picture of the nature of God's Kingdom (which they could not comprehend).
The OT also had accounts given in a similar parable style (as in 2 Samuel 12:1-4; Isaiah 5:1-7; & others). But Psalm 78:2 you quoted (& in others), the Psalmist is not sharing just a story with a spiritual meaning, but some of the history of Israel which he hoped would stir the hearts & minds of his readers to learn from. So there is a difference in the meaning of 'parable', even as the Hebrew word, 'mashal' suggests, & Psalm 78:2 makes no suggestion to Jesus' use of such parables. To Page 2.
You state, "the Bible Alone and in its Entirety is, in fact, the ONE TRUE GOSPEL OF SALVATION". I do agree that the message of salvation for Israel is clear throughout the Bible, the message that would culminate in the Gift of God's Son for both Jew & Gentile. But I suspect that this Gospel of Salvation that is found in the whole Bible requires, as you suggest, that the Work of the Cross be applied to even those living in the OT, when in fact that Work hadn't begun. I don't believe that it applied to them, but it did apply to them at the Crucifixion & to those after it, when Jesus cried, "It is finished". Everything pointed to Him & culminated in Him - nothing before that. The Sacrifices might have pointed to Calvary, but until the Crucifixion took place, all sacrifices were necessary as part of the people's obedience & for their covering. All who were before the Cross remained bound to the Old Covenant of the Law from which there was no salvation.
I've stated often, that the old sacrifices couldn't save Israel, just as the ordinances given to the Church cannot save her, but those sacrifices performed 'hid' God's Face of Wrath & Judgement from them & carried them through till the time of Christ. If they died before then, their faith & obedience was sufficient to preserve them till Christ's Salvation affected them as well. I know that you don't accept this, rather, believing that the OT saints were born again by the working of the Spirit. I see nothing of this & will not pursue this matter. GBU.
I don't have much of anything to add to what I've already said. But I do want to emphasize some things.
Your view of OT Salvation is a Gospel of Grace plus Works. In that while the OT Believe was saved by Christ's Atonement their obedience to the Ceremonial Law contributed to their Salvation in some way. And that is not possible based on everything we read in the Bible about the Nature of Salvation. Salvation is by God's Grace ALONE. It is 100% the work of God. Remember the man who picked up a few sticks in Numbers.
In John 3 where Jesus is talking with Nicodemus about Becoming "Born Again", He was clearly expecting Nicodemus, a teacher, a Pharisee, someone that should have been familiar with what was required for Salvation in the OT, to have understood this as a MASTER OF ISRAEL. John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a MASTER OF ISRAEL, and knowest not these things?
This idea of OT Believers going to a place called Hades when they die is not taught in the Bible. I know that you want to put your weight on the story of Luke 16 about the Rich Man and Lazarus. But when we examine that story very carefully we know for a certainty that it is not talking about a possible historical event. That story is NOT a "historical parable" it is a "parable" like many that Jesus told when on earth to teach some Spiritual Truth. Nowhere does the Bible teach that someone "buried" has "eyes" to see or that there could be any communication with Abraham who is in Heaven. The Bible just absolutely does not teach that. Nor does the Bible anywhere teach that OT Believers go to a place called Hades when they die.
So, forgive me for being so bold and presumptuous, but it seems to me that your Dispensational view of the Scriptures forces you into an understanding of God's Judgment and Salvation Plan for Mankind that is complex and convoluted. And prevents you from seeing the consistency and cohesiveness throughout the Bible.
Just to refer to some of your points, David0921. My "view of OT Salvation is a Gospel of Grace plus Works". I would rather define my view as: "FULL Salvation" was not known by the OT saints under the Law. Whereas the 'Gospel of Grace plus Works' would apply today, where man chooses to add his own efforts, even the Law, to make God's Grace truly effective. Israel could never be saved whilst under the Law, for the Law (& the Sacrifices) gave no salvific provision. Why God accepted them, was simply because of their relationship to God by their election, obedience & ordained sacrifices. But they had to, like all those pre-Cross, wait for Christ's redemptive Work to be completed.
Re: Nicodemus. Yes, he should have, as a teacher of the Torah & the Writings, picked up easily what Jesus was speaking about concerning re-birth. Scriptures such as Psalm 51;10, Psalm 51:16,17; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:26 which Nico knew, should have immediately brought him understanding to the revelation Jesus just gave him. The OT saints could only yearn after such a cleansing of heart as God forgave them when they repented, but not until the Spirit of God would come (to whom Jesus pointed), would Nico & others experience that spiritual re-birth.
My great emphasis on the Luke 16 account is because I don't regard it as a parable. I've written before on this: that a parable (as Jesus gave), were simple, everyday stories that gave a view of Kingdom Life & God's Requirements. If the rich man, Lazarus, & Abraham being mentioned were simply a part of a parable (a non-specific account), then Jesus was lying, for no such situation ever existed or could exist in Hades & Jesus' disciples & Pharisees who were listening, would have been grossly misled into understanding about the after-life. Yes, the body lies in the grave, but the spirit lives on; & pre-Cross, Hades is given as that place.
And yes, I am a Dispensationalist, as that is the only way I can see how the Bible narrative all fits in together. And by the way, I never considered myself as one, until reading in these comments how some actually don't read & understand the Bible as I do; I never knew this was possible, even though teaching specifically mentioning dispensations never came up in sermons or Bible studies I attended.
So, God's Salvation Plan for mankind, I don't see as "complex & convoluted", as it makes perfect sense to me to see the Plan of God unfold, first for Israel, & then for the world - and still further along, as both believing Jew & Gentile are brought together as one IN Christ. If I bring the future Work of the Cross as applying to OT Israel then, when that Work never took place, then that would be confusion to me. For then we would have a people saved by the (future) Sacrifice of Christ, yet without the indwelling Holy Spirit to give them re-birth & power to live unto God. And we know that the Holy Spirit was not given in this way, according to the Promise that Jesus made to His disciples (in John 14:16-19) of the yet-to-be sent Spirit & His indwelling in God's children. I am unable to split Christ's Redemptive Work for the world in such a way, where a future Sacrifice applies way before the Spirit's indwelling & power to live such a life.
Any understanding of the Salvation of OT Believers must take into account these verses.
Matthew 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold THERE APPEARED UNTO THEM MOSES AND ELIAS TALKING WITH HIM.
Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; FOR GOD TOOK HIM.
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and ELIJAH WENT UP BY A WHIRLWIND INTO HEAVEN.
These things could happen because the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement, the payment for their sins, existed from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, i.e. from CREATION. As we read in Rev 13:8 that Christ was THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
Additionally we read in Hebrews 4:1-3 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. FOR UNTO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS UNTO THEM {OT Israel}: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS { Rev 13:8} WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
And this is the reason that OT Believers could be and were BORN AGAIN just like NT Believers. And when they died physically they went to be with Christ in Heaven in their soul existence, exactly like NT Believers. And they did not go into the never never land of someplace called Hades for centuries.
One Gospel; One Salvation; One application of Salvation; One Destination upon physical death. For OT and NT Believers ALIKE.
Thanks again David0921 for these Scriptures, & of course, I don't share in your understanding of them. I will look at the main one: Hebrews 4:1-3.
You understand this passage as referring to the Gospel that was delivered to us, that it was the same as they (OT Israel) also received. However, this passage is not talking about the Gospel of Salvation through a Redeemer, but about the Gospel that was ordained before the worlds were framed together - and that is, that God's Plan was for all (Jew & Gentile) to enter into HIS REST. And that is what the Gospel is: for us, we know that perfect rest (from our struggle with sin, of certain judgement for it, of being accepted by God & receiving His Peace) can only be attained through the Cross & looking unto it.
The Gospel that was 'preached as well unto them' contained nothing of Christ's Sacrifice. To force the word 'Gospel' in the OT to mean the same as in the NT, is to misapply the meaning & understanding of Scripture. When the Gospel came to us, we were dead in our sins & in desperate need of redemption & only through Christ's death we could have any hope. When the Gospel came to them, they were already the elect, chosen of God, to remain faithful to God, obeying His Commands, & observing the Sacrifices & associated laws. If they exercised faith & looked only unto God & none other, they would be saved; just as Abraham, Moses, & others were. Which also agrees with the translation of Enoch & Elijah, where these men were counted faithful & for God's Own purpose, were removed from the Earth. But then the question: 'weren't these also sinners, though being the Elect, needing cleansing; how could faith & sacrifice only save them?' Hebrews 9:13,14: these sacrifices only sanctified the people to the "purifying of the flesh"; God instituted this that they may be forgiven & He could dwell in the midst of them & be their constant Guide, providing them that temporary covering for their sin. Onto Page 2.
I agree 100% what you have said that OT Israel knew nothing of a coming Messiah's Sacrifice of His Life for them & substitutionary payment. Hence, the word 'Gospel' mentioned in Hebrews 4 is not the same Gospel they received as is the complete Gospel that the Apostles preached post-Cross. (Perhaps not in the way it is preached in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
I believe the OT saints did what was required of them at that time to make them just with God. Their temporal rituals and sacrifices exemplified the Gospel and perhaps the resurrection was preached by "type" when Issac was offered as a sacrifice by Abraham. Hebrews 11:17-19.
However, could they have perceived it, being that Jeremiah 31:31-34 have not taken place yet?
When we study Hebrews in its entirety, we know that this new covenant was not to come under the Levitical covenant. This is clearly seen in Hebrews Ch 7 and 8.
So, when we look back at this, Israel mind was blinded and there was a veil upon their hearts, as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3:14-16. "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament, which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when "it" shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. (The "it" mentioned here is their hearts.)
When Israel turns their hearts to God the veil and the blindness shall be taken away.
This is what Paul is saying in Romans 11.
Israel was incapable of receiving the revelation of the Gospel under the Levitical High Priest and if you study the Gospels carefully, neither could the Apostles until the death of the one that filled the role of the Levitical Priesthood at the Cross.
(I believe this is what John's baptism was all about)
The resurrection began the new covenant under the new Priest hood. ( Hebrews 7:15-16.)
Now Christ faith in them will give them rest.
Thats future for them as a Nation
But those sacrifices could not bring cleansing of the heart & conscience, which only Christ's shed Blood could. They remained in limbo - God accepting their sacrifices, pleased to abide with them, yet looking ahead when His Own Sacrifice would bring full cleansing, new life, & a permanent rest for their souls.
The Gospel of 'Rest' that was promised to them, was not just of entering Canaan ( Deuteronomy 12:9-11; Joshua 22:43-45), but was spoken of a future Rest ( Hebrews 4:8,9; Isaiah 11:10 (both in the first & second comings of Jesus)). This was always God's Plan, even to include Gentiles in such blessing - and Jesus only could be the Sacrifice that would bring true & lasting rest for all. All the sacrifices pointed to Him & the temporary rest that Israel enjoyed (when they were faithful), could only be fully realized when Christ's Blood also applied to them, yet future. Present-day Israel is in turmoil (spiritually, physically, nationally), having rejected their Messiah. They will never have God's Rest whilst in this state. But when they see their Messiah coming in the clouds, come to Him in brokenness & repentance, having their hearts cleansed by His Blood not by sacrifices, then Hebrews 4:9 will be fully realized, "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."
To quote you "The Gospel that was 'preached as well unto them' contained nothing of Christ's Sacrifice."
But Chris, Everything, and I mean everything, in the Ceremonial Laws was all about Christ's Sacrifice, God's Judgment and Salvation plan for Mankind. And that is what the book of Hebrews, and in fact, the whole Bible, is all about.
What I did say, in relation to the 'Gospel being preached to us as well as to them', was that the Gospel spoken of, assured them (& us) of a coming complete rest ( Hebrews 4). Maybe, your point of contention with me should be based on my understanding of the Gospel mentioned here (one of Rest), whereas you see the Gospel here as being singularly on Christ's Sacrifice. I believe that OT Israel knew nothing of a coming Messiah's Sacrifice of His Life for them & substitutionary payment. Hence, the word 'Gospel' mentioned in Hebrews 4 is not the same Gospel they received as is the complete Gospel that the Apostles preached post-Cross.
Sent for clarification.
I admit to not having a good grasp of your "understanding" of how those living in OT times were "saved", and the "gospel" that was "preached to them". And in particular how God "applied" Salvation to each individual that He saved; from Abel to Enoch to Noah; and then to Abraham and those of Israel and Judah that He saved, all of whom were a tiny remnant of those living during the OT, as in the NT.
I see only one Gospel of Salvation throughout the Whole Bible. And only one process for "applying" that Salvation to ALL of God's elect throughout time. And that was by God's Mercy and God's Grace Alone. Where none of "their works" nor any "inherent faith" contributed in any way to their Salvation. Just like Salvation during the NT.
Now granted that Gospel was not as clearly articulated in the OT as in the NT as God continued to write the Bible throughout history. But Noah "was a preacher of righteousness"; and the Ceremonial Laws; and all the books of the OT, like Isaiah and Jeremiah contained the same Gospel of Judgment and Salvation by Christ's Atonement as is articulated in the NT.
We read this statement by the Apostle Paul in Acts 26:22-23 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the PROPHETS and MOSES did say should come:That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people{OT}, and to the Gentiles{NT}.
So the Gospel of Hebrews 4 and Acts 26 and the Whole Bible is the Gospel of the REST of Salvation, God's WORK of Grace Alone apart from any work that man does. And the EFFICACY of that WORK, Christ's Atonement, applied throughout time.
And, I'm sorry to say, that is not the gospel that I see in your comments regarding OT Believers. I see a Works / Grace gospel and a process for applying Salvation to the life of the OT believer, not found anywhere in the Bible.
I have been reading your conversation and I will have to go by David's view since Hebrews 4:2 says that the gospel was preached to us as well as the OT Israelites. This wording implies that the gospel is the same gospel, not two types of gospel.
We do not know all of what God told the OT saints (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the prophets) we know just what was recorded in Scripture. But if the Word in Hebrews says that those in the OT had the gospel preached to them, then I think we should believe that it is the one true gospel of Jesus our Savior and His work for our salvation.
OT gospel was the law of Moses
Hebrews 8:7-9
To say that it was the same gospel, would be saying that the gospel of Jesus Christ is faulty, & we all know it not.
1 Peter 1:10-12 "of the Grace that should come" future tense
NT gospel is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that sets one free from the law of sin & death
Who is able to redeem one completely out of sin. By the Blood/Life of the Lamb of God, who's blood/life purge out the old leaven from our very heart, & forms there, by His Spiirt the new creature,. Col 3:10 By God's command 2Cor 4:6 Who brings Jn 1:17 Who is ABLE cleanses, delivers & redeems to the uttermost to all that come to God through Him, Meaning in Spirit, not the letter.
Yet, I believe there were few in the OT, who's faith reach out into the NT
Remember, faith come by hearing & hearing by the Word of God, Himself,
David, son of Jesse, would be one, Heb 6:5 his writing speak of this Spirit of Grace & Truth.
What measure he received of it ? him & God knows !
in love & truth
Thank you GiGi for your view on this passage. And I did sense that you would align with David's thoughts on it, as mine appear to be wholly dispensational in understanding. True, "we don't know all of what God told the OT saints", and in fact Isaiah 53 might be the most detailed prophecy we have of a coming suffering Messiah, so it can only be one's viewpoint as to what Gospel (whether one of the Cross or of eternal Rest) that was given & what the people understood of it. In any case, the point in our discussions (with David0921) was, if it was the Gospel of Jesus' Sacrifice that was preached to them (as you also accept), then those who came under the sound of it, who obeyed God in faith, had that salvation applied to them; i.e. they were saved, eternally secure - they were born again at that time.
So our problem here is threefold: 1. what was the nature of the Gospel brought to the OT saints; 2. whether their faith in God (and the Gospel brought to them), actually saved them from that time on; and 3. was the Holy Spirit given to them as well (to save them, making them new) which then begs the question, what was the need of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost? This pouring out wouldn't then be necessary, as everyone (OT & NT) who puts their faith in God through the eternal Sacrifice of Jesus ("slain from the foundation of the world"), would be born again & automatically receive His Spirit. Onto Page 2.
Yet, Hebrews 9:26 states, "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself". Writing about the yearly sacrifices made by the OT High Priests, the writer explains that Jesus' Sacrifice was different even in this respect: Jesus came only once to deal with the sin problem forever. If His Sacrifice applied to the OT faithful living in those days as well, then Jesus' Crucifixion had to begin from those days, & done often.
This tells us that before Jesus came & gave His Life, all Israel were under the Law & remained condemned for their sin. But God chose to be merciful to them through their obedience in sacrifices. Though those sacrifices looked ahead to Jesus' Perfect Sacrifice, His Sacrifice had no bearing upon them at that time, or else as the Scripture gives, "He must often have suffered since the foundation of the world". And Jesus would have had to "suffer" often, as the OT Covenants were in force & the New Covenant in His Blood had not occurred. But He didn't suffer & die for them at that time, but only after "he appeared (now once in the end of the world) to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself"; only at Calvary, the price of sin (for those of the OT & latter days) applied. Even if the Gospel preached unto them was of Jesus' Sacrifice, it would have not been understood by them & not even applied to them - until Jesus finally came & secured those OT saints & us post-Cross, to His praise.
Abraham saw into the future and rejoiced to see the work of Christ for Himself and those who believed God.
He foresaw the Resurrection and believed that this would be his future, too. He looked forward to the rest of the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, and counted himself as a foreigner and sojourner in the physical land of promise he was brought to by God.
He did not stake his inheritance as this earthly land, but the heavenly land that God prepared for those who live by faith.
David also had many views of the future that revealed the salvation that comes from the Messiah and believed/
Moses and many prophets also saw the future when the Messiah would take away their sins.
I am sorry that I cannot cite all the Scripture for these things right now. I am off for chores for the day.
Blessings to you today, Chris.
Thanks GiGi for the things you shared & though much of it I do agree to, as you would expect, the matters of the Gospel's meaning & Abraham's view of Jesus, are points in disagreement here. I won't add to what Giannis has shared with you now, about the Gospel (i.e. its meaning & application to those in both Covenants), or what David0921 & I had already discussed at length concerning it, but to the matter of Abraham (as seen in John 8:56).
John 8:56: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." You believe that Abraham of old "saw into the future and rejoiced to see the work of Christ for Himself and those who believed Godforeseeing the Resurrectionetc". When we read this portion in John 8:52-58, the Jews (the religious leaders), accused Jesus of having a devil for Jesus spoke of those who would never see death (v51), since Abraham, as others, experienced death. Jesus was a liar in their minds. Then they question Him, "whom makest thou thyself?": He answers, 'that He receives the honor of God & thus speaks the Words of God, the God whom they did not know'. If they truly knew the God of Israel & now Jesus, as one greater than Abraham & the prophets, they would have believed Him. Onto Page 2.
Then what about Abraham? Abraham was dead & buried, how could he being dead rejoice to see Jesus' Day, this is the Day of Jesus' Coming? This wasn't a situation of (the Genesis) Abraham knowing about Jesus & waiting patiently with joy, for Jesus' Sacrifice & Redemption. This dialogue with the Jews was to show that Abraham was alive in Hades all this time, but NOW rejoicing to see the Messiah finally come (in Jesus' Day) Who would give full atonement to him & all others waiting in hope.
Yes, Abraham, as those many others, 'who looked for a heavenly city', expected it (in faith) & died (in faith), "not having received the promises, but seeing them afar off" ( Hebrews 11:13,16). Their faith/faithfulness to God was vibrant even to this point in their death & confinement in Hades, but until the Atonement was completed at Calvary, they remained in limbo, waiting, in expectation of the promised eternal rest that awaited them, to have Christ's Blood applied to them as well.
Now the Gospel was complete for them (what they once knew imperfectly); the eternal Rest they longed for was now realized in Christ Jesus, in Whose Blood there is Peace with God ( Colossians 1:20) & eternal Rest in Christ ( Hebrews 4:9). GBU.
The "faith" of OT Believes that is spoken about in Hebrews 11 is not some kind of "inherent faith". That is not possible based on Romans 3. That faith is the Gift of God that RESULTS when God applies His Salvation to any individual whom He saves throughout time. That is the faith that they lived and died with by God's Mercy and Grace as God applied their Salvation to their life, the RESULT of having been given a New Resurrected Soul, the RESULT of having been BORN AGAIN, of having been given ETERNAL LIFE.
And that meant that when they died physically, they went to be with Christ in Heaven in their soul existence to await the Resurrection of the Last Day; they did not go to a place called "hades".
It means that they experienced exactly the same Salvation of NT Believers before their physical death.
And that is the reason that Enoch was translated, that Elijah went to Heaven in a in a whirlwind, that Moses and Elijah could appear on the mount of transfiguration in their Spiritual Bodies along with Jesus.
These OT Believers did not have nearly as much information about Salvation as we have in the NT. Nor would their understanding have been as complete as ours should be. But complete understanding is not a prerequisite for Salvation. Only the Mercy and Grace of God ALONE. And the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement for their sins which was available FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.