Thank you David0921. You have shared your position & belief on this matter before and I accept that it is your understanding. As well, you know my position concerning the 'salvation' of the OT saints & other related features under the Old Covenants. If we cannot find agreement on the various dispensations seen in the Bible in which God operated in different ways, then that alone will assure us that anything we discuss that includes such Bible divisions, can never find agreement between us. So thank you again & every blessing.
I agree completely with your final comment. The thing that makes me tremble is that at least one of us is declaring "thus saith the LORD, when the LORD hath not said". And therefore at least one of us is declaring a Lie.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word.
I'm glad you brought up Hebrews 11. This chapter talks nothing about a place called "hades". That is your idea, not God's. Hebrews 11 is proof positive that these OT Believers lived and died in faith seeing the "promise a far off" of a Heavenly city "whose builder and maker is God", that is the Kingdom of God, New Heavens and a New Earth as they lived and died as "strangers and pilgrims" on this earth, just like NT Believes. They are our example.
There are many scriptures which show that the Salvation of OT and NT Believers were the same and that God applied the Salvation to them in the same way giving them a New Heart, A New Resurrected Soul, just like NT Believes. I have quoted several.
I am unaware of any scriptures where God talks about this never never land destination for OT believers called "hades". I have not found them.
And how does God's description of Mankind in Romans 3 fit into your picture of the Salvation of OT Believers.
Again, Chris, this is really a discussion about the very Nature of Salvation itself.
David0921. I didn't say that Hebrews 11 spoke about Hades. I referred to Abraham (in Hebrews 11); that when he died, that he went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31).
Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.
The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.
I took the time to check out the verses that you cite in reference to "Hades" (G86). In fact I looked at every passage where the Greek "hades" is used.
The word "hades" is used only 11 times in the Bible. In 10 of those it is translated "hell" in the KJV. And in every one of those 10 passages it is referring to either the unsaved, or Christ Himself as He endured the Wrath of God for the sins of His Elect. None of those passages have anything to do with OT Believers in "limbo" awaiting Salvation because Christ's Atonement has not yet become effective.
The only other passage is 1 Corinthians 15:55 where "hades" is translated "grave" (which actually would be a better translation in the other 10 in my view, but that is beside the point here). In 1 Cor 15:55 the context is the Resurrection of all True Believers when they will receive their Resurrected Spiritual Bodies.
So, Chris, none of these passage support in any way that OT Believes go to a place called "hades" when they die.
Hi David0921. Just to touch on some of the points in your recent several comments.
Referring to Romans 3: Yes, it is a chapter of mankind's sinful condition, hence it was not written TO ALL mankind, but ABOUT ALL mankind. So, if all mankind lies in sin, how does God seek to remedy that disease? We know that it can only be through Christ, but where we differ is that you believe that Christ's Blood availed for those OT sinners while they were still alive. My belief: that Christ's Blood availed for them & us, ONLY after the payment for sin was completed.
Hades. 1 Corinthians 15:55 only speaks about 'death & the grave'. Looking at the Greek, for both those words, 'thanatos' is given & not Hades. So 'death & the grave' are understood as only that: 'death as confined to the grave'; no Hades here, a word which refers to an actual hell of spiritual confinement.
Then to the passages I shared, to which you wrote that 'none of them support OT believers going to a place called Hades at death'. For sure, most of those references just spoke about a very real place called Hades, to which I was drawing your attention to the fact that there is a name Hades. But when Jesus spoke of Abraham & Lazarus also being there, this is where "we (must) compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word" (your quote). If we then disregard Luke 16:19-31 in its entirety, then we do great disservice to God's Word & our understanding of (for example, Hades) then becomes skewed. Onto Page 2.
Allow me to comment something more on replys exchanged between you and David 0921,something about 'death as confined to the grave'; something like cause and efect. By the way,death is an enemy, how to fight with him and defect him?
To deeply analyze and understand this terrible biblical theme, we need to start from the beginning of a mortal process that has existed since the beginning.Where does the dying process of man begin? Well, the Word of God reveals to us where it begins, by the way, the Word is GOD, understand?
Here's the source and the beginning of the mortal process:
Prov.18:21KJV:-Death and life are in the power of the TONGUE...
James 3:5-6:->5 The TONGUE is a little member, and boasts great things.Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6The TONGUE is a fire,A WORLD OF INIQUITY:so is the TONGUE among our members, that it defileth(and kills)the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature(as in days of Noah and Lot);and it is set on FIRE of HELL.
What is the MOUTH of the grave and how is it seen?Well,what does the Word of GOD say?Rom.3:10-18
10 As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understand,there is none that seeks after GOD.
12 They are all gone out of the way,they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good,no, not one.
13 Their THROAT is an open SEPULCHRE; with their TONGUES they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose MOUTH is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways
17 And the way of peace have they not known
18 There is no fear of GOD before their eyes
You said: 'death as confined to the grave', death caused by a THROAT(an open sepulchre)and a satanic TONGUE,so the dead body is placed in the grave because of the bad smell that exudes from the dead(spiritually the stench of the sin),and you are obliged to get rid of it by burying it in an open hole in the earth
Hello Oseas. My words, "death as confined to the grave" was in relation to death & the grave as being synonymous in that verse ( 1 Corinthians 15:55). I have since learned, that this is not the case when the Greek rendering is taken from other Bible translations & not the KJV & a couple of others. So "cause & effect" wouldn't apply in this comment to David0921.
But you asked, "where does the dying process of man begin?" I think your answer suggests that it lies in the tongue/the throat (from the references you gave). However, it appears that the sin nature in man begins right at birth, even whilst in the womb (even as David expressed it in Psalm 51:5; also Romans 5:12). The tongue is indeed "a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell" ( James 3:6), but the tongue can only do what this verse tells us, and that is when the root of evil in the human heart manifests such expression. And that 'root' is the sin nature passed onto each one of us, which we can't avoid, but yet find forgiveness & a new nature from Heaven, only through Christ's Blood shed for us.
Thank you for your reply.There are two interesting points. See that the point of your speaking/speech, about death&the grave,it is about the letters of a translation and specific biblical versions. Also you say that"the 'root' is the sin nature passed onto each one of us,which we can't avoid..."
Let's see, we are speaking of the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD, GOD is Spirit,the Spirit gives life,so He is my focus,for the letter kills,I would say"letters" are the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,GOD x DEVIL,GOD recommended you shall not eat of "letters",for in the day that you eat thereof you shalt surely die.Why?The letter of the Bible is a stumblingblok, understand? Only and only the Spirit gives life, is Truth
See, There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going(or understands his steps)Prov.14:12&15.A wholesome tongue is a TREE OF LIFE:but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit(it causes destruction by spirit)-Prov.15:4.
The other point: See, The"root" is not the sin.Sin entered the world by the Devil's tongue,sin is an effect of the sound of words sounded by the lying tongue,even in the interpretation of the Word of GOD,in fact this is the greatest sin,in fact the source of sin is the tongue-Gen.3:1.
Thus GOD says by His Word:Deut.30:19-20KJV
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,that I have set before you LIFE and DEATH,blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE,that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That you may love the Lord thy GOD,and that you may obey His voice,and that you may cleave unto Him:for He is thy life,and the length of thy days:...
You said:"the tongue can only do when the root of evil in the human heart begins to manifest itself".You forget that the manifestations are the effect of the evil things the men saw and heard.That which comes out of the MOUTH,this defiles a man-Matt.15:11.
Thanks for your comments Oseas. I can see that we read & understand the Bible in differently. You write: "the letter kills, I would say "letters" are the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". In writing about the 'letter kills', Paul (in 2 Corinthians 3:6) is contrasting the Letter of the Law given to Israel, which could never give them life, but only lead to death. There was nothing wrong with the Commandments of God: they showed God's Standards, the nature of sin & condition of the human heart, & their inability to fully meet the Law's demands. "But what the Law (the Letter) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" ( Romans 8:3).
And when His Son paid sin's price, the Letter of the Law had no more hold on those who looked to Him & not to the Letter to save them. God's Spirit was given to believers, who would now be subject to the Spirit: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" ( Romans 8:2). So, the letter of the Bible is NOT a stumbling block; it is the very Word of God, given by the Spirit & enabling that Word to be applied to the believer. If we dismiss the Word of God as just being 'a letter (a tree if knowledge)', then we must also dismiss that the Word is "God-breathed", yet we must obey it 'to the letter'. If we don't, then we can do whatever we want with it, even as we see the behavior of many so-called believers. Let's not try to be so tuned to the Spirit so as to avoid the very Words that the Spirit has given us for our understanding & obedience. The Holy Spirit will never ask us to do or behave in a way that is inconsistent with the revealed Word of God.
As far as the 'root of sin being the sound of words by a lying tongue', the Devil might be the author of sin, but we can (as the Lord Himself did) choose to listen & obey him or not. Sin lies at our door - the door of our heart.
I think you need to reestudy more deeply because the Law was not given by GOD to Israel to give life to them, GOD knew of this, of course. Neither to lead them to death, this was not the point of GOD. The Law was established to put a moral discipline among the people which GOD had freed from Pharaoh's yoke.
The GOD's people developed and grown up exceedingly in Egypt, and in the way of desert they were living as brute beasts, and the idolatry of Egypt was in their heart. So to walk among them, GOD established the Law: The 1st: Thou shalt have no other gods before me; no image, no bow down to them; not take my name in vain; keep the sabbath day;Honour thy father and thy mother:not kill; not commit adultery;not steal;no false witness, and not covet.
No, God's Standards, showed not the nature of sin by the Law. Sin would be to disobey GOD, this is correct. Nor GOD's Standards showed the condition of the human heart, the Law would never do that. Actually, GOD laid down the moral Law and just required obedience, that's it. The sin would be to disobey GOD.
You say they were inability to fully meet the Law's demands. No, it' was not about inability to obey Law's demands, even Paul said that "the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the law"; So Israel, that was the body of Moses, with the presence of GOD among them could perfectly to LITERALLY obey the Law. The battle was between GOD X the Devil in having the dominion of the people.
About the Bible's letter it"is NOT a stumbling block;it is the very(written)Word of God,given by the Spirit & enabling that Word to be applied to the believer", BUT only if it as long as it be interpreted by the Spirit, otherwise, if interpreted by the letter, it is a stumbling block, yes, and it kills exactly as the Devil did- Genesis 3:1- and they died by the letter and die to this day, including the gods- Psalms 82:6-7 combined with Isaiah 41:23.Take a look.Very deep
Oseas. You wrote, "The Law was established to put a moral discipline among the people which GOD had freed from Pharaoh's yoke." Of course, the Law did just that & of course, they had to obey it PERFECTLY. Wasn't this so? If it wasn't so, why did they suffer punishment or be killed - why not just keep a set of rules for them to follow the best way they could? The Law represented God's Standards for His people & failure to do so meant punishment - and fail they did. None could keep His Law perfectly, or else there would be no need for the sacrifices each year for the people & for personal sins. So the Law presented a "moral discipline", but also showed the condition of the human heart & the weakness of the flesh when they failed to obey God.
When Paul wrote about the Gentiles & their law & conscience ( Romans 2:14,15), he was referring to humanity's inner 'coding' in the conscience by which they know the right & proper things to do (in relation to each other & before an unseen God). These never received any of God's Laws, but their hearts will be judged because they couldn't even obey the dictates of their own consciences. So, both the Jew (with the Law), and the Gentile (without the Law, but having that inward law operating), stand condemned for their sins. The battle wasn't "between God & the Devil in having the dominion of the people", for Israel could never obey the Law anyway, as Satan would always have the victory. The battle was within Israel's heart - a heart of sin, subject to sin's demands upon them, & given over to Satan. See Paul's account of this in Romans 7:7-14 (the Law revealed his sin; he then died spiritually because of it - nothing to do with God's battles). Instead of fighting the Devil for souls, God provided His Own Sacrifice & His Own Spirit to redeem sinners.
You mentioned 'interpretation by the Spirit' & then "they died by the letterincluding the gods". Do you actually understand Psalm 82:6,7 & Isaiah 41:23, when you write these things?
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
It seems you still discerned not the main point I'm bringing to the site by posts.The main point is about the origin of death,the "letter"kills,we cannot deny,the problem is to discern this deep mystery.
In Eden,due the disobedience of MAN to what the Spirit had said unto him not to do,for if so the consequence would be death because the Spirit said:You will die.It is the Power of the invisible GOD.The Word is GOD,proceedes out of the mouth of the Person of GOD,self-executable,understand?Why Adam died only after 930 years of his disobedience?Adam died because the Spirit said:You will die.The prophetic GOD's Word fulfilled after 930 years:Adam died in the exact moment he sinned disobeying GOD,being beguiled by Eve that was beguiled by the Devil by subtilty(whose throat is an open sepulcre)
See,the disobedience is as the sin of witchcraft,and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry
1Samuel 15:22-26
22 And Samuel said,Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold,to obey is better than sacrifice,and to hearken than the fat of rams
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.Because thou hast rejected the Word of the Lord,He hath also rejected thee from being king
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the command of the Lord,and thy words:because I feared the people,and obeyed their voice
25 Now therefore,I pray thee,pardon my sin,and turn again with me,that I may worship the Lord
26 And Samuel said unto Saul,I will not return with thee:for thou hast rejected the Word of the Lord,and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel
First of all,you die because you disobey GOD,the deadly effect on the body(decay and sepulchre)takes a certain amount of time
Behold,the man is become as one of us,to know good and evil: and now,lest he put forth his hand,and take also of the tree of life, and eat,and live for ever
Oseas. If I have it correct, you state that 'the origin of death is disobedience'. That of course would apply to Adam & Eve who disobeyed God's direct Command to them. What happened when they were tempted to listen to the serpent & not to God's Words? They committed the first sin, a sin that wasn't the product of a sin nature, for they did not have one - they were created absolutely pure.
Then you state, "you die because you disobey Goddeadly effect on the body". I think you are referring to anyone after Adam, including you & me. What I believe here, is that I don't die (in the flesh) because of my disobeying God, but I die because Adam's sin nature was transmitted to me ( Romans 5:12). And how do I know that I have Adam's sin nature? The evidence is in physical death & of course, spiritual death as well, for which Christ's Blood avails. But that Blood does not avail for my death physically, except to know the promise of the resurrection.
So this 'disobedience' that you're focussing on, is not the primary sin of Adam, but a product of the existing sin nature in each one of us. And to 'disobedience', we can add lust, envy, pride, stubbornness, idolatry, etc., showing that even if 'disobedience' was Adam's downfall, our downfall is not 'disobedience', but is the transmitted fallen nature of Adam, to which Christ is the only Remedy. So, it's a case of 'is our disobedience the root of sin within us, or does the root of sin in us cause us to disobey?'
Yes, CHRIS,"What happened when they(EVE and ADAM)were tempted to listen to the serpent(CAUSA MORTIS)& not to God's Words?(THE LIFE).They committed the first sin(causa mortis), a sin that wasn't the product of a sin nature(so a deep calleth unto deep-Ps.42:7-Highlights's mine),for they did not have one-they were created pure"
So,the disobedience caused a change of the nature. James 3:6-The tongue is a fire,a world of iniquity:so is the tongue among our members,that it defileth the whole body,and setteth on fire the COURSE of NATURE;and it is set on fire of HELL.Paul said:"by a man came death,for in Adam all die"-1Cor.15:21-22.Why?What does the Word of GOD say?1Cor.15:45-49-"The first man Adam was made a living soul;that which is natural;he is of the earth, earthy;and as is the earthy,such are they also that are earthy,and have borne the image of the earthy"
No,I was not "referring to anyone after Adam,including you&me" for as we all know from Adam until the current time,my Lord
JESUS is the only one who was not born from the Devil
JESUS said to the Devil:Man shall not live by bread alone,but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of GOD
Genesis 3:2 to 5
The Devil said to the woman:"Yea,hath GOD said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
The woman answered to the Devil:We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden(in my view the fig tree),GOD hath said,Ye shall not eat of it...lest ye die
And the serpent said unto the woman,Ye shall not surely die:GOD knows that in the day ye eat thereof,then your eyes shall be opened,and ye shall be as gods,knowing good and evil
Luke 20:35-36
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world(next world-the millennium),and the resurrection from the dead,neither marry,nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more:for they are equal unto the angels;and are the children of GOD,being the children of the resurrection
I confess to not following much of what you are saying.
God gave us His Law to benefit Mankind. The Law of God is the Whole Bible.
To the the measure that anyone obeys the Law of God, they will enjoy to a greater extent their life on this earth.
But the Law of God shows us our sinfulness and the penalty for our sin. The wages of sin is eternal death.
Therefore, the Law is our "schoolmaster" to show us our need of a Savior and God's Mercy in providing Himself as the Savior.
Once we have become saved, we are no longer under the Law in the sense that our guilt before the Law has been fully satisfied by Christ and we no longer stand guilty before the Law.
Furthermore, once we have become saved, the Law of God, the Bible, is now our friend and cannot condemn us. It is the Rule Book for the Kingdom of God and we will have an increasing desire to serve God by being more and more obedient to the Law of God, the Whole Bible, as we Grow in Grace.
You said:"I confess to not following much of what you are saying."
You do well,I also don't follow you and others,except the written GOD's Word,I only exchange messages.What does the Law say? 1st commandment:"You shall have no other gods before me"
See,it is written in the Law,'I have said you are "gods",He called 'gods,' to whom the Word of GOD came-and Scripture cannot be set aside-BUT we cannot forget that THE LAW ALSO SAYS:"You shall have no other gods before me".It has nothing to do with idols.
So,what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,self-executable,understand?When He was MADE FLESH around 2000 years ago and He preached the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom,even He said and we cannot deny, but to assert what He said:"All the prophets and the Law PROPHESIED until John",period. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear",period."And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of heaven suffereth violence", that is, the Kingdom of GOD is is violently attacked, "and the violent take it by force", yeah, violent people have been raiding it - Matt.11:12-15.
Matt.13:27-28:- 27-Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?28 An enemy hath done this.
Paul said:Christ is become of no effect unto you who are trying to be justified by the law,you have been alienated from Christ and have fallen away from grace.The Scripture foreseeing that GOD would justify the heathen through faith,preached before the gospel unto Abraham,saying,In thee shall all nations be blessed.They which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
As many as are of the works of the Law are under the CURSE,no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD for the just shall live by faith.The law is not of faith,Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the Law,being made a CURSE for us,that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through JESUS Christ,that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
***Please post this comment as it is a correction to a comment deleted from the Mod Queue prior to posting***
Chris,
I actually agree with much of what you are saying in this comment. But we must always keep in mind God's statement regarding the condition of ALL of Mankind, apart from Salvation, in Romans 3, Psalm 14, Psalm 53, Psalm 58 and many other parts of the Bible.
When I read your comments here and elsewhere regarding the nature and purpose of the OT Ceremonial Sacrifices, you seem to conclude that these Ceremonial Laws were given as some kind of "interim means of acceptance" by which God could overlook the sins of those who would diligently observe these Ceremonial Laws up until the Cross.
The Bible clearly teaches, particularly in the Book of Hebrews, that the Ceremonial Laws were given as a picture, a SIGN, that their sins brought them under condemnation and the Wrath of God. And that God Himself must purge their sins by the Sacrifice of Himself in enduring the Wrath of God on their behalf. Which Sacrifice, God very clearly says was EFFECTUAL "FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD", Rev 13:8, Heb 4:3. And that there was NO EFFECACY whatsoever in the Ceremonial Laws from the perspective of Salvation. So the Salvation of anyone in the OT was by God's Mercy and Grace Alone; and not in any way through the keeping of the Ceremonial Laws, or of any Law of God. Just like the Salvation of anyone during the NT times.
God did NOT write the Bible in a way that it can be understood like any other book. He wrote it in a way that we can only come to Truth as we compare scripture with scripture, allowing the Bible Alone to be its own Interpreter and our only Authority. When we do this we find a consistency and cohesiveness regarding God's Salvation Plan for Mankind throughout the history of the world and we find harmony throughout the Entire Bible teaching us about the Nature of Salvation.
David0921. I agree, "we must keep in mind God's statement regarding the condition of ALL of Mankind", for truly 'none are righteous, no not even one'.
And yes, those OT Sacrifices clearly pointed to Israel that "their sins brought them under condemnation and the Wrath of God", yet they still needed to faithfully perform them so as to stay the Wrath of God from them. For this reason, verses such as Numbers 15:25 & Leviticus 4:31 (after the priest offers the sacrifice, the burnt offering becomes a "sweet savour unto the LORD' and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and IT SHALL BE forgiven him") spoke very clearly to them concerning their state before God & their lives were under God's Judgement. If all that they sacrificed before God & receiving His forgiveness by it, only meant that they were performing an act which was useless, since Christ (as you believe), was already sacrificed for them from before the foundation of the world, then we do have a problem in understanding the nature of the OT sacrificial system.
If Christ already atoned for their sins, what was the need to introduce a system of works to please God & receive His Forgiveness? It's almost like saying, 'that we have been forgiven by Christ's Blood, but we still need to add our own works to make His Sacrifice complete'. Certainly, the OT Sacrifices contained no efficacy, for their blood shed had no lasting atoning value to the offeror ( Hebrews 10:11,12), but it still had to be done, so that God's Wrath could be stayed, their sins had to be covered, that they be not destroyed. And if that were not the case, then so help any who failed to perform what God had commanded - their fate was sealed.
The sacrificial system was absolutely important for Israel's physical preservation, but it did look forward to that One & only Sacrifice which would avail for them & for us. To understand the Bible in any other way concerning the sacrificial system, becomes meaningless.
The Law having a SHADOW of good things TO COME, and not the very IMAGE of the things(so just like a shadow),could never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Hebrews 10:1
Hebrews 9:-Verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service,and aA EARTHLY sanctuary.There was a tabernacle made; the first, where the priests went always into to accomplishing the service of GOD, but into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
But the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
which was A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience, which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
If the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to GOD, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living GOD? And for this cause JESUS is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified
I agree totally with the Scriptures you are quoting. Those scriptures are explaining the purpose of the OT Ceremonial Laws as a SIGN, A SHADOW, of the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY of Christ's Atonement which is the ONLY basis for the Salvation of OT and NT Believers, alike. And that is why no OT Believer could ever become saved by rigorously keeping the Ceremonial Law, or, in fact, any Law of God. Just like every NT Believer.
I work with the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD, self-executable. Daniel 12:10 says: Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
JESUS said: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matthew 25:29. (This will be LITERALLY fulfilled from now on)
1 Corinthains 13:9-10 & 8
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
8 ... But whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (be annihilated); whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever- Revelation 11:15.
And the NATIONS were (will be) angry, and GOD's WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
As well, Acts 2:25-27 (Peter's message at Pentecost), clearly referred to David's Psalm 16:10, when David believed that his soul would not remain forever in hell (sheol; the Hebrew equivalent of Hades in the NT). David, as righteous & accepted as he was before God, would also go to the underworld to await deliverance.
When Peter referred this Psalm to Christ, indeed it was true, for at His Death, Christ did descend into Hades ("the lower parts of the Earth") for a time, to lead "captivity captive and gave gifts unto men" ( Ephesians 4:8-10). Jesus not only released the shackles of sin & death over those held in that interim/transitional place, but also took those in such captivity & made them captive to Himself.
His Sacrifice not only made the full sin payment for them (unlike the sacrifices of old), but also secured their position now IN Christ before the God & Father whom they served under the Law & sacrificial orders. That Law now perfectly fulfilled in Jesus & abrogated, ushered in the New Covenant which is in His Blood alone. The OT faithful had to wait for Calvary - there could be no salvation for them without it, no matter how well they stood before God behind their offerings.
David0921, Hades was a very real place for the OT faithful, & it could only take Jesus' Sacrifice & Victory over death & hades, to release them forever (what they longed for - to find that perfect REST).
We have to read the rest of Peter's commentary regarding Psalm 16 and David's words. David was talking about Christ and Christ's payment for the sins of His Elect in descending into "hades" (hell or the grave) not David himself. This is not talking about David or OT Believers going to a place called "hades" to await the efficacy of Christ's Atonement nor is Ephesians 4:8-10.
Acts 2:29-36 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
So, again, neither of these passages is teaching what you suggest about OT Believers.
And incidentally, it is also a commentary on the Gospel that "was preached to them, as well as onto us" Heb 4.
I think, David0921, that I missed your comment: "I'm not catching your point regarding 1 Corinthians 15:55. The word translated "grave" in this verse is the Greek "hades", or you might have deleted it.
In case I missed it, my Lexicon shows: in 1 Corinthians 15:55, the word given for death (twice mentioned, unlike the KJV), is 'thanatos', & this is not Hades, Hell, etc. This refers to death, so the rendering should be, "O death, where is thy sting? O DEATH, where is thy victory". For their own reasons, the KJV translators placed 'grave' there, which of course, isn't wrong, as the grave is also the place of the dead.
To Psalm 16. I read this Psalm as David's personal song of Trust in His God: vv1-8 (the LORD to be his portion in life) & vv 9-11 (to also preserve him in death). So David was speaking of himself & not of Christ, BUT in doing so, the Spirit guided his words & prophetically applied those words (in vv 8-10) to Jesus, Who as the 'Son of David', would fulfil that perfectly, so that those, like David, might yet have hope in the resurrection.
The Apostle Peter cites this portion (as Paul does in Acts 13:34-37), that Christ would not be restrained in Sheol, nor suffer corruption (body decay through death). But David in writing this Psalm, speaks of himself 'not being left in Sheol, nor will God suffer His Holy One(s) to see corruption'. The Hebrew here for Holy One is 'hasideka', having the same letters & inflections added giving the plural of that phrase (Holy Ones); cf Psalm 52:9 & Psalm 79:2 (both, 'your saints' - same 'hasideka'). So David does speak about himself that he won't be 'left to rot' if you will, but ultimately, this could only apply to Jesus, Who saw no corruption of flesh.
Unlike your understanding of this Psalm, I clearly see that David fully expected to enter Sheol ( Psalm 16:10), but only Christ, the Son of David, would not have the tomb or the underworld restrain Him (to these important points, both Peter & Paul referred to the Psalms).
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death,(G2288 thanatos) where is thy sting? O grave, (G86 hades) where is thy victory?
Regarding both Acts 2 and Acts 13. When I allow the Bible to be its own interpreter, these passages are a commentary on the OT passages referenced, clarifying and giving us additional information. They are not suggesting that David, or any OT Believer, went to a place called "hades" as a stop over awaiting Christ's Atonement to become effective.
They are in fact teaching important truth regarding Christ's Atonement and the Nature of Salvation as Christ endured the Wrath of God in full payment for the sins of those whom He is saving, as does the entire Bible. David is, of course, a great type of Christ. In fact the name "David" appears over 1000 times in the Bible, sometimes referring only to Christ Himself, and not David the man.
This discussion, I think, as others unfortunately further demonstrates that we have quite different views regarding the fundamental Nature of the Bible and how to go about its interpretation. And that leads us to a very different understanding of many critical doctrines such as the Spiritual condition of Mankind, the Nature of God's Judgment and Salvation, the Kingdom of God, the future of National Israel and the Church, End Time events, and where we are in the timing of God's Plan for all of these things.
May the LORD in His Mercy open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we search out these things, comparing scripture with scripture. Looking to the Bible Alone and in its Entirety as our ultimate Authority.
Thanks David0921. I believe we sorted out the 1 Corinthians 15:55 difference in translation from the Greek. And for the rest of you comment here, you're correct, "we have quite different views regarding..the Bible andits interpretation". So, I won't comment further on this matter, as there would be unnecessary & unfruitful repetition. GBU.
That's interesting Giannis. I guess the rendering I have must be taken from other Bible versions (which might be the majority) that show it as: 'pou sou thanate to nikos pou sou thanate to kentron'. Though one version shows it as 'death' but also giving 'Hades' next to it in brackets. I will have to keep a watch on that. Thank you.
Thank you brother. Your comments & research have prompted me to be more alert to the Greek texts (& possibly Hebrew as well), ensuring that a diligent rendering be made to the KJV (TR).
I agree completely with your final comment. The thing that makes me tremble is that at least one of us is declaring "thus saith the LORD, when the LORD hath not said". And therefore at least one of us is declaring a Lie.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word.
I'm glad you brought up Hebrews 11. This chapter talks nothing about a place called "hades". That is your idea, not God's. Hebrews 11 is proof positive that these OT Believers lived and died in faith seeing the "promise a far off" of a Heavenly city "whose builder and maker is God", that is the Kingdom of God, New Heavens and a New Earth as they lived and died as "strangers and pilgrims" on this earth, just like NT Believes. They are our example.
There are many scriptures which show that the Salvation of OT and NT Believers were the same and that God applied the Salvation to them in the same way giving them a New Heart, A New Resurrected Soul, just like NT Believes. I have quoted several.
I am unaware of any scriptures where God talks about this never never land destination for OT believers called "hades". I have not found them.
And how does God's description of Mankind in Romans 3 fit into your picture of the Salvation of OT Believers.
Again, Chris, this is really a discussion about the very Nature of Salvation itself.
Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.
The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.
I took the time to check out the verses that you cite in reference to "Hades" (G86). In fact I looked at every passage where the Greek "hades" is used.
The word "hades" is used only 11 times in the Bible. In 10 of those it is translated "hell" in the KJV. And in every one of those 10 passages it is referring to either the unsaved, or Christ Himself as He endured the Wrath of God for the sins of His Elect. None of those passages have anything to do with OT Believers in "limbo" awaiting Salvation because Christ's Atonement has not yet become effective.
The only other passage is 1 Corinthians 15:55 where "hades" is translated "grave" (which actually would be a better translation in the other 10 in my view, but that is beside the point here). In 1 Cor 15:55 the context is the Resurrection of all True Believers when they will receive their Resurrected Spiritual Bodies.
So, Chris, none of these passage support in any way that OT Believes go to a place called "hades" when they die.
Hi David0921. Just to touch on some of the points in your recent several comments.
Referring to Romans 3: Yes, it is a chapter of mankind's sinful condition, hence it was not written TO ALL mankind, but ABOUT ALL mankind. So, if all mankind lies in sin, how does God seek to remedy that disease? We know that it can only be through Christ, but where we differ is that you believe that Christ's Blood availed for those OT sinners while they were still alive. My belief: that Christ's Blood availed for them & us, ONLY after the payment for sin was completed.
Hades. 1 Corinthians 15:55 only speaks about 'death & the grave'. Looking at the Greek, for both those words, 'thanatos' is given & not Hades. So 'death & the grave' are understood as only that: 'death as confined to the grave'; no Hades here, a word which refers to an actual hell of spiritual confinement.
Then to the passages I shared, to which you wrote that 'none of them support OT believers going to a place called Hades at death'. For sure, most of those references just spoke about a very real place called Hades, to which I was drawing your attention to the fact that there is a name Hades. But when Jesus spoke of Abraham & Lazarus also being there, this is where "we (must) compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word" (your quote). If we then disregard Luke 16:19-31 in its entirety, then we do great disservice to God's Word & our understanding of (for example, Hades) then becomes skewed. Onto Page 2.
Allow me to comment something more on replys exchanged between you and David 0921,something about 'death as confined to the grave'; something like cause and efect. By the way,death is an enemy, how to fight with him and defect him?
To deeply analyze and understand this terrible biblical theme, we need to start from the beginning of a mortal process that has existed since the beginning.Where does the dying process of man begin? Well, the Word of God reveals to us where it begins, by the way, the Word is GOD, understand?
Here's the source and the beginning of the mortal process:
Prov.18:21KJV:-Death and life are in the power of the TONGUE...
James 3:5-6:->5 The TONGUE is a little member, and boasts great things.Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6The TONGUE is a fire,A WORLD OF INIQUITY:so is the TONGUE among our members, that it defileth(and kills)the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature(as in days of Noah and Lot);and it is set on FIRE of HELL.
What is the MOUTH of the grave and how is it seen?Well,what does the Word of GOD say?Rom.3:10-18
10 As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understand,there is none that seeks after GOD.
12 They are all gone out of the way,they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good,no, not one.
13 Their THROAT is an open SEPULCHRE; with their TONGUES they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose MOUTH is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways
17 And the way of peace have they not known
18 There is no fear of GOD before their eyes
You said: 'death as confined to the grave', death caused by a THROAT(an open sepulchre)and a satanic TONGUE,so the dead body is placed in the grave because of the bad smell that exudes from the dead(spiritually the stench of the sin),and you are obliged to get rid of it by burying it in an open hole in the earth
But you asked, "where does the dying process of man begin?" I think your answer suggests that it lies in the tongue/the throat (from the references you gave). However, it appears that the sin nature in man begins right at birth, even whilst in the womb (even as David expressed it in Psalm 51:5; also Romans 5:12). The tongue is indeed "a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell" ( James 3:6), but the tongue can only do what this verse tells us, and that is when the root of evil in the human heart manifests such expression. And that 'root' is the sin nature passed onto each one of us, which we can't avoid, but yet find forgiveness & a new nature from Heaven, only through Christ's Blood shed for us.
Thank you for your reply.There are two interesting points. See that the point of your speaking/speech, about death&the grave,it is about the letters of a translation and specific biblical versions. Also you say that"the 'root' is the sin nature passed onto each one of us,which we can't avoid..."
Let's see, we are speaking of the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD, GOD is Spirit,the Spirit gives life,so He is my focus,for the letter kills,I would say"letters" are the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,GOD x DEVIL,GOD recommended you shall not eat of "letters",for in the day that you eat thereof you shalt surely die.Why?The letter of the Bible is a stumblingblok, understand? Only and only the Spirit gives life, is Truth
See, There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going(or understands his steps)Prov.14:12&15.A wholesome tongue is a TREE OF LIFE:but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit(it causes destruction by spirit)-Prov.15:4.
The other point: See, The"root" is not the sin.Sin entered the world by the Devil's tongue,sin is an effect of the sound of words sounded by the lying tongue,even in the interpretation of the Word of GOD,in fact this is the greatest sin,in fact the source of sin is the tongue-Gen.3:1.
Thus GOD says by His Word:Deut.30:19-20KJV
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,that I have set before you LIFE and DEATH,blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE,that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That you may love the Lord thy GOD,and that you may obey His voice,and that you may cleave unto Him:for He is thy life,and the length of thy days:...
You said:"the tongue can only do when the root of evil in the human heart begins to manifest itself".You forget that the manifestations are the effect of the evil things the men saw and heard.That which comes out of the MOUTH,this defiles a man-Matt.15:11.
And when His Son paid sin's price, the Letter of the Law had no more hold on those who looked to Him & not to the Letter to save them. God's Spirit was given to believers, who would now be subject to the Spirit: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" ( Romans 8:2). So, the letter of the Bible is NOT a stumbling block; it is the very Word of God, given by the Spirit & enabling that Word to be applied to the believer. If we dismiss the Word of God as just being 'a letter (a tree if knowledge)', then we must also dismiss that the Word is "God-breathed", yet we must obey it 'to the letter'. If we don't, then we can do whatever we want with it, even as we see the behavior of many so-called believers. Let's not try to be so tuned to the Spirit so as to avoid the very Words that the Spirit has given us for our understanding & obedience. The Holy Spirit will never ask us to do or behave in a way that is inconsistent with the revealed Word of God.
As far as the 'root of sin being the sound of words by a lying tongue', the Devil might be the author of sin, but we can (as the Lord Himself did) choose to listen & obey him or not. Sin lies at our door - the door of our heart.
I think you need to reestudy more deeply because the Law was not given by GOD to Israel to give life to them, GOD knew of this, of course. Neither to lead them to death, this was not the point of GOD. The Law was established to put a moral discipline among the people which GOD had freed from Pharaoh's yoke.
The GOD's people developed and grown up exceedingly in Egypt, and in the way of desert they were living as brute beasts, and the idolatry of Egypt was in their heart. So to walk among them, GOD established the Law: The 1st: Thou shalt have no other gods before me; no image, no bow down to them; not take my name in vain; keep the sabbath day;Honour thy father and thy mother:not kill; not commit adultery;not steal;no false witness, and not covet.
No, God's Standards, showed not the nature of sin by the Law. Sin would be to disobey GOD, this is correct. Nor GOD's Standards showed the condition of the human heart, the Law would never do that. Actually, GOD laid down the moral Law and just required obedience, that's it. The sin would be to disobey GOD.
You say they were inability to fully meet the Law's demands. No, it' was not about inability to obey Law's demands, even Paul said that "the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the law"; So Israel, that was the body of Moses, with the presence of GOD among them could perfectly to LITERALLY obey the Law. The battle was between GOD X the Devil in having the dominion of the people.
About the Bible's letter it"is NOT a stumbling block;it is the very(written)Word of God,given by the Spirit & enabling that Word to be applied to the believer", BUT only if it as long as it be interpreted by the Spirit, otherwise, if interpreted by the letter, it is a stumbling block, yes, and it kills exactly as the Devil did- Genesis 3:1- and they died by the letter and die to this day, including the gods- Psalms 82:6-7 combined with Isaiah 41:23.Take a look.Very deep
When Paul wrote about the Gentiles & their law & conscience ( Romans 2:14,15), he was referring to humanity's inner 'coding' in the conscience by which they know the right & proper things to do (in relation to each other & before an unseen God). These never received any of God's Laws, but their hearts will be judged because they couldn't even obey the dictates of their own consciences. So, both the Jew (with the Law), and the Gentile (without the Law, but having that inward law operating), stand condemned for their sins. The battle wasn't "between God & the Devil in having the dominion of the people", for Israel could never obey the Law anyway, as Satan would always have the victory. The battle was within Israel's heart - a heart of sin, subject to sin's demands upon them, & given over to Satan. See Paul's account of this in Romans 7:7-14 (the Law revealed his sin; he then died spiritually because of it - nothing to do with God's battles). Instead of fighting the Devil for souls, God provided His Own Sacrifice & His Own Spirit to redeem sinners.
You mentioned 'interpretation by the Spirit' & then "they died by the letterincluding the gods". Do you actually understand Psalm 82:6,7 & Isaiah 41:23, when you write these things?
The Danial reference is incorrect. Should be:
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
It seems you still discerned not the main point I'm bringing to the site by posts.The main point is about the origin of death,the "letter"kills,we cannot deny,the problem is to discern this deep mystery.
In Eden,due the disobedience of MAN to what the Spirit had said unto him not to do,for if so the consequence would be death because the Spirit said:You will die.It is the Power of the invisible GOD.The Word is GOD,proceedes out of the mouth of the Person of GOD,self-executable,understand?Why Adam died only after 930 years of his disobedience?Adam died because the Spirit said:You will die.The prophetic GOD's Word fulfilled after 930 years:Adam died in the exact moment he sinned disobeying GOD,being beguiled by Eve that was beguiled by the Devil by subtilty(whose throat is an open sepulcre)
See,the disobedience is as the sin of witchcraft,and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry
1Samuel 15:22-26
22 And Samuel said,Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold,to obey is better than sacrifice,and to hearken than the fat of rams
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.Because thou hast rejected the Word of the Lord,He hath also rejected thee from being king
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the command of the Lord,and thy words:because I feared the people,and obeyed their voice
25 Now therefore,I pray thee,pardon my sin,and turn again with me,that I may worship the Lord
26 And Samuel said unto Saul,I will not return with thee:for thou hast rejected the Word of the Lord,and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel
First of all,you die because you disobey GOD,the deadly effect on the body(decay and sepulchre)takes a certain amount of time
Behold,the man is become as one of us,to know good and evil: and now,lest he put forth his hand,and take also of the tree of life, and eat,and live for ever
Then you state, "you die because you disobey Goddeadly effect on the body". I think you are referring to anyone after Adam, including you & me. What I believe here, is that I don't die (in the flesh) because of my disobeying God, but I die because Adam's sin nature was transmitted to me ( Romans 5:12). And how do I know that I have Adam's sin nature? The evidence is in physical death & of course, spiritual death as well, for which Christ's Blood avails. But that Blood does not avail for my death physically, except to know the promise of the resurrection.
So this 'disobedience' that you're focussing on, is not the primary sin of Adam, but a product of the existing sin nature in each one of us. And to 'disobedience', we can add lust, envy, pride, stubbornness, idolatry, etc., showing that even if 'disobedience' was Adam's downfall, our downfall is not 'disobedience', but is the transmitted fallen nature of Adam, to which Christ is the only Remedy. So, it's a case of 'is our disobedience the root of sin within us, or does the root of sin in us cause us to disobey?'
So,the disobedience caused a change of the nature. James 3:6-The tongue is a fire,a world of iniquity:so is the tongue among our members,that it defileth the whole body,and setteth on fire the COURSE of NATURE;and it is set on fire of HELL.Paul said:"by a man came death,for in Adam all die"-1Cor.15:21-22.Why?What does the Word of GOD say?1Cor.15:45-49-"The first man Adam was made a living soul;that which is natural;he is of the earth, earthy;and as is the earthy,such are they also that are earthy,and have borne the image of the earthy"
No,I was not "referring to anyone after Adam,including you&me" for as we all know from Adam until the current time,my Lord
JESUS is the only one who was not born from the Devil
JESUS said to the Devil:Man shall not live by bread alone,but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of GOD
Genesis 3:2 to 5
The Devil said to the woman:"Yea,hath GOD said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
The woman answered to the Devil:We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden(in my view the fig tree),GOD hath said,Ye shall not eat of it...lest ye die
And the serpent said unto the woman,Ye shall not surely die:GOD knows that in the day ye eat thereof,then your eyes shall be opened,and ye shall be as gods,knowing good and evil
Luke 20:35-36
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world(next world-the millennium),and the resurrection from the dead,neither marry,nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more:for they are equal unto the angels;and are the children of GOD,being the children of the resurrection
I confess to not following much of what you are saying.
God gave us His Law to benefit Mankind. The Law of God is the Whole Bible.
To the the measure that anyone obeys the Law of God, they will enjoy to a greater extent their life on this earth.
But the Law of God shows us our sinfulness and the penalty for our sin. The wages of sin is eternal death.
Therefore, the Law is our "schoolmaster" to show us our need of a Savior and God's Mercy in providing Himself as the Savior.
Once we have become saved, we are no longer under the Law in the sense that our guilt before the Law has been fully satisfied by Christ and we no longer stand guilty before the Law.
Furthermore, once we have become saved, the Law of God, the Bible, is now our friend and cannot condemn us. It is the Rule Book for the Kingdom of God and we will have an increasing desire to serve God by being more and more obedient to the Law of God, the Whole Bible, as we Grow in Grace.
You said:"I confess to not following much of what you are saying."
You do well,I also don't follow you and others,except the written GOD's Word,I only exchange messages.What does the Law say? 1st commandment:"You shall have no other gods before me"
See,it is written in the Law,'I have said you are "gods",He called 'gods,' to whom the Word of GOD came-and Scripture cannot be set aside-BUT we cannot forget that THE LAW ALSO SAYS:"You shall have no other gods before me".It has nothing to do with idols.
So,what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,self-executable,understand?When He was MADE FLESH around 2000 years ago and He preached the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom,even He said and we cannot deny, but to assert what He said:"All the prophets and the Law PROPHESIED until John",period. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear",period."And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of heaven suffereth violence", that is, the Kingdom of GOD is is violently attacked, "and the violent take it by force", yeah, violent people have been raiding it - Matt.11:12-15.
Matt.13:27-28:- 27-Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?28 An enemy hath done this.
Paul said:Christ is become of no effect unto you who are trying to be justified by the law,you have been alienated from Christ and have fallen away from grace.The Scripture foreseeing that GOD would justify the heathen through faith,preached before the gospel unto Abraham,saying,In thee shall all nations be blessed.They which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
As many as are of the works of the Law are under the CURSE,no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD for the just shall live by faith.The law is not of faith,Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the Law,being made a CURSE for us,that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through JESUS Christ,that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Chris,
I actually agree with much of what you are saying in this comment. But we must always keep in mind God's statement regarding the condition of ALL of Mankind, apart from Salvation, in Romans 3, Psalm 14, Psalm 53, Psalm 58 and many other parts of the Bible.
When I read your comments here and elsewhere regarding the nature and purpose of the OT Ceremonial Sacrifices, you seem to conclude that these Ceremonial Laws were given as some kind of "interim means of acceptance" by which God could overlook the sins of those who would diligently observe these Ceremonial Laws up until the Cross.
The Bible clearly teaches, particularly in the Book of Hebrews, that the Ceremonial Laws were given as a picture, a SIGN, that their sins brought them under condemnation and the Wrath of God. And that God Himself must purge their sins by the Sacrifice of Himself in enduring the Wrath of God on their behalf. Which Sacrifice, God very clearly says was EFFECTUAL "FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD", Rev 13:8, Heb 4:3. And that there was NO EFFECACY whatsoever in the Ceremonial Laws from the perspective of Salvation. So the Salvation of anyone in the OT was by God's Mercy and Grace Alone; and not in any way through the keeping of the Ceremonial Laws, or of any Law of God. Just like the Salvation of anyone during the NT times.
God did NOT write the Bible in a way that it can be understood like any other book. He wrote it in a way that we can only come to Truth as we compare scripture with scripture, allowing the Bible Alone to be its own Interpreter and our only Authority. When we do this we find a consistency and cohesiveness regarding God's Salvation Plan for Mankind throughout the history of the world and we find harmony throughout the Entire Bible teaching us about the Nature of Salvation.
Also keep in mind Dan 3:4 and Habakkuk 2:3
And yes, those OT Sacrifices clearly pointed to Israel that "their sins brought them under condemnation and the Wrath of God", yet they still needed to faithfully perform them so as to stay the Wrath of God from them. For this reason, verses such as Numbers 15:25 & Leviticus 4:31 (after the priest offers the sacrifice, the burnt offering becomes a "sweet savour unto the LORD' and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and IT SHALL BE forgiven him") spoke very clearly to them concerning their state before God & their lives were under God's Judgement. If all that they sacrificed before God & receiving His forgiveness by it, only meant that they were performing an act which was useless, since Christ (as you believe), was already sacrificed for them from before the foundation of the world, then we do have a problem in understanding the nature of the OT sacrificial system.
If Christ already atoned for their sins, what was the need to introduce a system of works to please God & receive His Forgiveness? It's almost like saying, 'that we have been forgiven by Christ's Blood, but we still need to add our own works to make His Sacrifice complete'. Certainly, the OT Sacrifices contained no efficacy, for their blood shed had no lasting atoning value to the offeror ( Hebrews 10:11,12), but it still had to be done, so that God's Wrath could be stayed, their sins had to be covered, that they be not destroyed. And if that were not the case, then so help any who failed to perform what God had commanded - their fate was sealed.
The sacrificial system was absolutely important for Israel's physical preservation, but it did look forward to that One & only Sacrifice which would avail for them & for us. To understand the Bible in any other way concerning the sacrificial system, becomes meaningless.
[Comment Removed]
[Comment Removed]
Greetings in Christ JESUS
The Law having a SHADOW of good things TO COME, and not the very IMAGE of the things(so just like a shadow),could never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Hebrews 10:1
Hebrews 9:-Verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service,and aA EARTHLY sanctuary.There was a tabernacle made; the first, where the priests went always into to accomplishing the service of GOD, but into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
But the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
which was A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience, which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
If the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to GOD, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living GOD? And for this cause JESUS is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified
I agree totally with the Scriptures you are quoting. Those scriptures are explaining the purpose of the OT Ceremonial Laws as a SIGN, A SHADOW, of the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY of Christ's Atonement which is the ONLY basis for the Salvation of OT and NT Believers, alike. And that is why no OT Believer could ever become saved by rigorously keeping the Ceremonial Law, or, in fact, any Law of God. Just like every NT Believer.
I work with the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD, self-executable. Daniel 12:10 says: Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
JESUS said: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matthew 25:29. (This will be LITERALLY fulfilled from now on)
1 Corinthains 13:9-10 & 8
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
8 ... But whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (be annihilated); whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever- Revelation 11:15.
And the NATIONS were (will be) angry, and GOD's WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Get ready
[Comment Removed]
[Comment Removed]
[Comment Removed]
As well, Acts 2:25-27 (Peter's message at Pentecost), clearly referred to David's Psalm 16:10, when David believed that his soul would not remain forever in hell (sheol; the Hebrew equivalent of Hades in the NT). David, as righteous & accepted as he was before God, would also go to the underworld to await deliverance.
When Peter referred this Psalm to Christ, indeed it was true, for at His Death, Christ did descend into Hades ("the lower parts of the Earth") for a time, to lead "captivity captive and gave gifts unto men" ( Ephesians 4:8-10). Jesus not only released the shackles of sin & death over those held in that interim/transitional place, but also took those in such captivity & made them captive to Himself.
His Sacrifice not only made the full sin payment for them (unlike the sacrifices of old), but also secured their position now IN Christ before the God & Father whom they served under the Law & sacrificial orders. That Law now perfectly fulfilled in Jesus & abrogated, ushered in the New Covenant which is in His Blood alone. The OT faithful had to wait for Calvary - there could be no salvation for them without it, no matter how well they stood before God behind their offerings.
David0921, Hades was a very real place for the OT faithful, & it could only take Jesus' Sacrifice & Victory over death & hades, to release them forever (what they longed for - to find that perfect REST).
We have to read the rest of Peter's commentary regarding Psalm 16 and David's words. David was talking about Christ and Christ's payment for the sins of His Elect in descending into "hades" (hell or the grave) not David himself. This is not talking about David or OT Believers going to a place called "hades" to await the efficacy of Christ's Atonement nor is Ephesians 4:8-10.
Acts 2:29-36 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
So, again, neither of these passages is teaching what you suggest about OT Believers.
And incidentally, it is also a commentary on the Gospel that "was preached to them, as well as onto us" Heb 4.
In case I missed it, my Lexicon shows: in 1 Corinthians 15:55, the word given for death (twice mentioned, unlike the KJV), is 'thanatos', & this is not Hades, Hell, etc. This refers to death, so the rendering should be, "O death, where is thy sting? O DEATH, where is thy victory". For their own reasons, the KJV translators placed 'grave' there, which of course, isn't wrong, as the grave is also the place of the dead.
To Psalm 16. I read this Psalm as David's personal song of Trust in His God: vv1-8 (the LORD to be his portion in life) & vv 9-11 (to also preserve him in death). So David was speaking of himself & not of Christ, BUT in doing so, the Spirit guided his words & prophetically applied those words (in vv 8-10) to Jesus, Who as the 'Son of David', would fulfil that perfectly, so that those, like David, might yet have hope in the resurrection.
The Apostle Peter cites this portion (as Paul does in Acts 13:34-37), that Christ would not be restrained in Sheol, nor suffer corruption (body decay through death). But David in writing this Psalm, speaks of himself 'not being left in Sheol, nor will God suffer His Holy One(s) to see corruption'. The Hebrew here for Holy One is 'hasideka', having the same letters & inflections added giving the plural of that phrase (Holy Ones); cf Psalm 52:9 & Psalm 79:2 (both, 'your saints' - same 'hasideka'). So David does speak about himself that he won't be 'left to rot' if you will, but ultimately, this could only apply to Jesus, Who saw no corruption of flesh.
Unlike your understanding of this Psalm, I clearly see that David fully expected to enter Sheol ( Psalm 16:10), but only Christ, the Son of David, would not have the tomb or the underworld restrain Him (to these important points, both Peter & Paul referred to the Psalms).
In my Strong's Concordance:
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death,(G2288 thanatos) where is thy sting? O grave, (G86 hades) where is thy victory?
Regarding both Acts 2 and Acts 13. When I allow the Bible to be its own interpreter, these passages are a commentary on the OT passages referenced, clarifying and giving us additional information. They are not suggesting that David, or any OT Believer, went to a place called "hades" as a stop over awaiting Christ's Atonement to become effective.
They are in fact teaching important truth regarding Christ's Atonement and the Nature of Salvation as Christ endured the Wrath of God in full payment for the sins of those whom He is saving, as does the entire Bible. David is, of course, a great type of Christ. In fact the name "David" appears over 1000 times in the Bible, sometimes referring only to Christ Himself, and not David the man.
This discussion, I think, as others unfortunately further demonstrates that we have quite different views regarding the fundamental Nature of the Bible and how to go about its interpretation. And that leads us to a very different understanding of many critical doctrines such as the Spiritual condition of Mankind, the Nature of God's Judgment and Salvation, the Kingdom of God, the future of National Israel and the Church, End Time events, and where we are in the timing of God's Plan for all of these things.
May the LORD in His Mercy open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we search out these things, comparing scripture with scripture. Looking to the Bible Alone and in its Entirety as our ultimate Authority.
My bible writes, 1 Cor 15:55, "pou sou(where yours), thanate(death), to centro (the sting), pou sou(where yours), hade(hades), to nikos(the victory)?"
I have done a research and found out that you quoted 1 Cor 15:55 from the critical edition of the NT, not from the Received Text.
[Comment Removed]
[Comment Removed]
[Comment Removed]
Viewing page: 2 of 4
< Previous Discussion Page Next Discussion Page >
1 2 3 4
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?