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I understand what you were explaining as to the Greek in Heb.4:2
The verse says that "for unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:.."
So if it says gospel, meaning "good news" and "evengelismenoi" as you say is the Greek it makes no difference really. The gospel that was preached to us is the one gospel of Jesus Christ and salvation. We were not preached a gospel of "rest" The verse says that "as unto them". this indicates that the gospel that we heard preached (and received) is the same one they heard salvation will come from the Messiah). This salvation is referred to as a deliverance from sin.
So, if the verse had said that the gospel (good news) of the rest of God was preached to us and the same gospel was preached to the Israelites, then I would agree that this good news is of a rest is the one we and they were to receive by faith. But that is not the normal message of the NT when using the word gospel (good news) (evengelismenoi). The NT uses the word "gospel" specifically to speak of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Messiah and Savior for those who believe it's content, which is salvation from sin, not a rest in God. It is true that we receive a rest in God by believing the Gospel of Jesus. The res is the result of hearing the gospel and believing it to be true and for each person that believes it.
I still stick to what I have said in previous posts concerning Heb. 4:2. You nor the others have given me convincing information to change to this view of what is meant by the word gospel in this passage.
While I can see that the word gospel (or evenglismenoi) can be used in ways you stated in everyday usage in Greek, in Scripture, it is normally used for salvation in Christ.
The OT story of the Israelites is for our instruction. Their deliverance from bondage points us to the deliverance from the bondage of sin we receive in Christ. That is what the author of Hebrews is speaking to. see pt. 2
What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. This is clearly stated by God in Rev 13:8 and Heb 4 and aligns with everything God declares throughout the Bible about the Nature of Salvation.
If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly. And God's perfect justice demands that full payment for their sins be made before they could be saved, before God could apply that Salvation to their life, before they could become Born Again. And God cannot and will not violate His own Law. But Abel, Noah, Abraham, David, and many other OT Believers did become saved.
Your "understanding" also ignores the fact that there is no "inherent faith" in Mankind that is pleasing to God and that all Mankind is, by nature, in rebellion against God ( Romans 3); and that God Himself must apply His Salvation to anyone that He saves by creating in us a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul, when He saves us. This is becoming Born Again. And the "faith" of Salvation is entirely a Gift of God and is part and parcel of Salvation itself.
And this must happen to anyone that God "saves", throughout time.
God does this, and can do this, only because the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement, His payment for the sins of His Elect, the terms of the Covenant, have all been met FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
So the question we are discussing really is the question of the Nature of Salvation itself.
Thanks David0921. We've already discussed Revelation 13:8 & Hebrews chap 4 & we've noted the different ways that we understand those passages. So, I'm not "ignoring or denying the efficacy of Christ's Atonement extending to the foundation of the world", but stating that the Atonement was not applied to those pre-Cross UNTIL the Sacrifice was made. Of course you cannot agree to this because you understand that Revelation 13:8 means that Christ's Death took place (maybe even mystically) before His actual coming to Earth. So this is where we're at.
So yes, 'no one in the OT could ever be saved nor could they ever keep God's Laws perfectly'. And that is why God instituted the sacrificial system, so that His people might still continue to live on Earth & still be accepted by Him, even receive His Forgiveness. If there was no sacrifice to appease & hide God's Wrath for sin & disobedience, then immediate death & consignment to Hell was certain. But they were kept in His Love & Care, looking forward to that glorious Day when the Lamb of God would far surpass any of their feeble temporary sacrifices & make atonement for their sins completely & forever. Hence, the 'holding station' of those righteous ones confined in Hades, pending the completion of the Work of the Cross, to which you also disagree. Onto Page 2.
And regards to "faith that saves": since I don't believe that Israel of old were saved people (as we understand it: the salvation granted us through the Cross), the matter of 'their faith & our faith', is not an issue, as they're dissimilar. There are people even today that express love & faith in God, but unless that love & faith are generated by the Holy Spirit undergirded by contrition over their sins, their faith is spurious & of the human kind. Israel's faith was like that: not Holy Spirit generated, human, yet based on being God's chosen people, God loving them & revealing Himself to them, experiencing His blessings beyond measure, & the promise of the coming Messiah.
Yes, God can never overlook sin (whether of Israel or Gentiles), but the need for sacrifices, coupled with faith & obedience by Israel at that time, averted God's Wrath. Therefore, I agree that "the question of the Nature of Salvation itself", as well as the need & importance of understanding the nature of the old sacrificial system, which clearly reveals God's Purposes under these Covenants, is of great importance.
What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
This is unscriptual, it didn't apply until He actually did it.
quoting you;
"If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly".
Job 1:1Job 1:8Job 2:3 Enoch was take up to God, do you really believe God would allow a sinner into heaven? Both of these was before the law, & after the law 1 Kings 11:42 Kings 20:31Chronicles 29:9Luke 1:6Philippians 3:6
What saith thou of thyself?
Friend, your putting your foot in your mouth again!
" 1. Let us fear, as long as the promise of entering His rest (it means Heaven) is left (it means it is still valid), any of you seems to come short
2. For we were told the good news {in grk "esmen evengelismenoi"}like them, but the word they heard didn't benefit them, not being mixed (it means joined) with faith in them that heard it."
Here Paul makes a comparison between people in OT that heard the good news of entering their rest (land of promise) but didn't believe those news, and hence they never entered the land, and those in the NT who may be in the same situation, not believing the good news of entering the real rest (Heaven) and hence they are in risk of not entering it'
The phrase in the KJV "the gospel preached" has the meaning "the good news we heard, we were told", the word gospel here has its initial meaning which is good news.
I know that Gospel means good news. But I don't think that the gospel is the rest as much as it is the gospel of Christ our Savior and this verse tells that both the NT people and OT people heard the same gospel. In the NT I can't recall the gospel ever being spoken of as anything other than who Jesus is and what He did to save us, and because of this gospel, those who believer by faith will have this rest spoken of in Hebrews. The good news is Jesus, the giver of eternal life, the gift is the rest-salvation of our souls.
David0921. Yes, it is only by God's Mercy & Grace given that salvation is effective to all. But of course, our problem here is that you see that the salvation given was the same for both OT Israel & Gentiles.
After Jesus' Crucifixion, yes, that shed Blood applied to all, so Israel could not be saved in this way pre-Cross. But they awaited that day when that Blood would apply, Israel had to demonstrate obedience to God & works (performing those sacrifices, rigid obedience to the Laws, etc.) - and this was so that their sins would be covered (not taken away, for only Christ's Blood could do that), that their sins might be 'shielded' from God's View through sacrifice. Was this 'Works'? Certainly. Because God required an effort be put in so that sinners were aware of their sins & requirement for payment to prevent justice being served. Otherwise, God Himself could have provided the sacrificial animal, caused it to die & burn, as the people watched on in appreciation. But God chose that man had to put the effort (works) by proper animal selection & performing all the rites necessary to present his sins to God for forgiveness. And all this pointed to a future day when "God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering"; the offering that all the old sacrifices pointed to & that would be a permanent "once & for all" offering for sin, unlike man's offerings which only covered his sin, awaiting that day.
So yes, "only one salvation", but God had to put Israel under the Old Covenant of Law & Works, that they might know Who God is, their sinfulness, & how great was His Love for them that He should accept their sacrifices. If their 'salvation' was all of Grace alone, then there would be no need for their effort (works) to contribute to it by performing those sacrifices. But to reiterate, Israel didn't receive the salvation that we know today, but they knew God's Forgiveness, awaiting the day when the faithful among them would have Christ's Blood applied to them.
John 3:5-10 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Thank you David0921 for those great Scriptures, which we have raised between us over these past days. I believe them as you do, but it's in their application where we have disagreement. GBU.
Christ was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8
Hebrews 4:2,3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Romans 3:10,11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Noah found grace before any sacraficial laws were given , by God , to the Israelites . It isn't the sacrifice that bestows forgiveness , it's the faith in the sacrifice . God says : do this ( whatever this might be ) and I will forgive your sins . So , if we have faith , we believe what God says and we obey . Wether that is : believe in my Son , or wether it is : offer a lamb or touch the brasen serpent etc . We have to have faith in God's promises and then act accordingly . We have to believe that our sins are forgiven in Christ and then try to live as much as possible , as Christ did . Same with the animal sacrifices , God says clearly , offer these sacrifices and your sins will be forgiven , it's not the blood of the sacrifices , it's our / their faith in God's command and promise that will be fulfilled , if His command is obeyed .
In trying to understand the nature of salvation, we have to start with the condition of mankind before God applies his salvation to those whom he chooses to save. And we read that in Romans 3. "There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that seek after God."
Salvation of Old Testament believers and New Testament believers, throughout the history of the world, is by God's mercy and grace alone. And the basis, for that salvation is that God chose, whom he would save, paid for the sins of those whom he chose to save, and applied that salvation to their life, so that they become born again. and the efficacy of Christ's Atonement applies from the foundation of the world.
Mankind has no inherent faith that will please God, and result in salvation. The faith that we have is a gift of God and his part and parcel of the salvation that God applies to our life.
The old testament sacrifices never saved anyone.
But Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord. Just like every Old Testament and New Testament believer believer that God saves.
Hi David , hope you don't mind if I ask a question ? Do you think it possible , that the Israelites in the old testament , were forgiven their sins through those old sacrifices , not because of the actual physical sacrifices that were made , but because they believed ( had faith ) in those sacrifices ? They believed that God forgave them when they obeyed His commands to do those sacrifices , He had told them that they would be forgiven if they offered those sacrifices and because they believed Him and offered them , then God forgave them because they showed faith ?
I should clarify my understanding of Acts 26:22,23 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
The phrase "unto the people, and unto the Gentiles" is, I believe, a phrase used here by God to encompasses all peoples of the World, Jew and Gentile alike, throughout time, to whom God would send the Gospel. Abel, Enoch, Noah, the Ninevites, the Queen of Sheba were not Jews. They were all "Gentiles" and not descendants of Abraham.
I am sorry to say that the more we discussed these things, The more convinced I am that we have a very different view of the nature of the Bible and the nature of salvation. And I have to confess that I shudder at some of the things that I read in your comments, particularly this last one.
God's elect are not limited to those from national Israel. The elect of God are all of those whom God chose to save from before the foundation of the world, and for whom Christ paid for their sins. The elect of God includes all true believers throughout time from any nation whom God saves. Jew and Gentile alike. And that Salvation is 100% the work of God.
The REST of Hebrews 4 is the REST of Salvation where we cease trusting in any work the we do and REST only in the WORK of God of Christ to save us. And that is the GOSPEL that was preached to them and us.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
Mark 4:33,34 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Chris,
The efficacy of Christ's payment for the sins of ALL whom He has saved or ever will save extends throughout the history of the world beginning from creation.
The Ceremonial Laws which Old Testament Israel were commanded to observe were "historical parables" designed to teach them, and us, about the nature of Salvation, the forgiveness of sins. Observance of these Ceremonial Laws did not save anyone. And apart from Salvation, there is no forgiveness of sins.
Old Testament Israel did not have the whole Bible as we do today; so there understanding of the Nature of Salvation would not have been nearly as complete as ours should be today. Although Jesus was critical of Nicodemus for not understanding that we must be "Born Again".
But God does not require an extensive knowledge of the Word of God to save because Salvation is 100% the Work of God Alone, i.e. Grace Alone. The Salvation of the 120,000 Ninevites who humbled themselves and repented of their wickedness at the preaching of Jonah is a beautiful example.
So once again, there is ONE AND ONLY ONE Salvation for anyone whom God saves throughout the history of the world. And that Salvation is by God's Grace Alone, apart from any obedience to the Law of God.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
This is also my understanding Chris , thank you for explaining it so well . God would not tell the Israelites that their sins would be forgiven by those animal sacrifices if He didn't mean it . He said they would be forgiven so they must have been so . Once Christ appeared and willingly offered himself , then he became the Way the Truth and the Life and forgiveness is now only in him .
I'm sorry, but that is not what the Bible is teaching. Please read my last response to Chris's responses.
There can never be forgiveness for sins, any sin, unless that sin is fully paid for in accordance with the Law of God and that payment is Eternal Death. And that requires that Christ Himself must pay for any sin that is to be forgiven.
Forgiveness for sin is part and parcel of Salvation itself. God must then apply that Salvation to the Believer by causing them to become Born Again by God's Grace Alone. And all of that is required for any sin of any person throughout time to be forgiven. And we know from Hebrews and the rest of the Bible that no sacrifice of animals, nor any observance of the Ceremonial Laws, nor any obedience to any Law of God can save us so that our sins can be forgiven.
There is one and only one Salvation for everyone throughout time that God saves. And apart from Salvation there is no forgiveness for sin. God does not have separate Salvation plans for Old Testament Believers and New Testament Believers.
Thank you Jema. And we can consider the other aspect of the sin offering, where the LORD directed Moses in regard to such sacrifices, that for "the sins of the people", two goats were to be provided: one to be sacrificed & the other the scapegoat bearing their sins & iniquities" (Leviticus chapter 16). This is what the LORD required; their perfect fulfilment would be seen in Jesus Who was both the Sacrifice (payment) for our sin and the Scapegoat, upon Him was laid the sins of the people (becoming the sin-bearer) & driven far (casting away our sins, "as far as the East is from the West", Psalm 103:12), and to be remembered no more.
This act might appear to us just as symbolism, awaiting its fulfilment in Christ, yet if there was no merit gained by its performance then (i.e. that sinners were forgiven by their submission & obedience), then the whole system would be a farce, offering a false promise, leaving those eminent ones such as Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, & many others, without any present assurance & hope for eternity. Even though it was "not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (i.e. remove them entirely, but had to be sacrificed yearly), God had instituted this & through it He kept His people covered, shielded from His Wrath & forgave them when they looked to Him & waited upon Him.
I've always understood that what was required of Israel in those days were for their benefit & blessing, yet only giving a foretaste & for a complete revelation found only in Christ & the Gift of His Holy Spirit.
So what did Jesus' Blood do that no other sacrifice could?
A. it was the only RANSOM price for sin (all sin, for all people): Matthew 20:28; 1 Timothy 2:5,6.
B. it was the only way to bring RECONCILIATION (no longer enemies, but now accepted & in peace) with God ( 2 Corinthians 5:18-21).
C. it was the only way to PROPITIATE (to appease & turn away God's Anger) knowing that His Son's Blood fully met His Holy Demands to save those who would believe in Him ( 1 John 2:1,2).
D. it was the only acceptable SUBSTITUTE that it would be Jesus that received man's condemnation, that no animal's blood could ever accomplish ( 2 Corinthians 5:21).
E. and all this gave irrefutable proof that God's LOVE for sinners was genuine & lasting, that His Own Life, of His only Begotten Son, should be evident to all.
True love can be seen when "a man lays down HIS life for his friends" ( John 15:13), & not just delegating the task to another. The Blood of Jesus, God's Son, shows us clearly, & should also do to the world, that God is indeed a God of Love, giving His best, His all to secure our salvation: given to all those who will respond to Him in faith in this great Work.
Thank you Chris! I hope you are well your way. Amen. The perfect ransom was for all! Christ was not freed from death on the Cross, he exchanged His Life freely for the life of men by His Blood, if we believe. We are washed in regeneration by this Blood in faith.
Thank you brother Carleton. It's good to see you back on these pages & trust that you have been enjoying the immeasurable blessings of the Lord, the Faithful One.
I understand what you were explaining as to the Greek in Heb.4:2
The verse says that "for unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:.."
So if it says gospel, meaning "good news" and "evengelismenoi" as you say is the Greek it makes no difference really. The gospel that was preached to us is the one gospel of Jesus Christ and salvation. We were not preached a gospel of "rest" The verse says that "as unto them". this indicates that the gospel that we heard preached (and received) is the same one they heard salvation will come from the Messiah). This salvation is referred to as a deliverance from sin.
So, if the verse had said that the gospel (good news) of the rest of God was preached to us and the same gospel was preached to the Israelites, then I would agree that this good news is of a rest is the one we and they were to receive by faith. But that is not the normal message of the NT when using the word gospel (good news) (evengelismenoi). The NT uses the word "gospel" specifically to speak of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Messiah and Savior for those who believe it's content, which is salvation from sin, not a rest in God. It is true that we receive a rest in God by believing the Gospel of Jesus. The res is the result of hearing the gospel and believing it to be true and for each person that believes it.
I still stick to what I have said in previous posts concerning Heb. 4:2. You nor the others have given me convincing information to change to this view of what is meant by the word gospel in this passage.
While I can see that the word gospel (or evenglismenoi) can be used in ways you stated in everyday usage in Greek, in Scripture, it is normally used for salvation in Christ.
The OT story of the Israelites is for our instruction. Their deliverance from bondage points us to the deliverance from the bondage of sin we receive in Christ. That is what the author of Hebrews is speaking to. see pt. 2
What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. This is clearly stated by God in Rev 13:8 and Heb 4 and aligns with everything God declares throughout the Bible about the Nature of Salvation.
If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly. And God's perfect justice demands that full payment for their sins be made before they could be saved, before God could apply that Salvation to their life, before they could become Born Again. And God cannot and will not violate His own Law. But Abel, Noah, Abraham, David, and many other OT Believers did become saved.
Your "understanding" also ignores the fact that there is no "inherent faith" in Mankind that is pleasing to God and that all Mankind is, by nature, in rebellion against God ( Romans 3); and that God Himself must apply His Salvation to anyone that He saves by creating in us a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul, when He saves us. This is becoming Born Again. And the "faith" of Salvation is entirely a Gift of God and is part and parcel of Salvation itself.
And this must happen to anyone that God "saves", throughout time.
God does this, and can do this, only because the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement, His payment for the sins of His Elect, the terms of the Covenant, have all been met FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
So the question we are discussing really is the question of the Nature of Salvation itself.
Thanks David0921. We've already discussed Revelation 13:8 & Hebrews chap 4 & we've noted the different ways that we understand those passages. So, I'm not "ignoring or denying the efficacy of Christ's Atonement extending to the foundation of the world", but stating that the Atonement was not applied to those pre-Cross UNTIL the Sacrifice was made. Of course you cannot agree to this because you understand that Revelation 13:8 means that Christ's Death took place (maybe even mystically) before His actual coming to Earth. So this is where we're at.
So yes, 'no one in the OT could ever be saved nor could they ever keep God's Laws perfectly'. And that is why God instituted the sacrificial system, so that His people might still continue to live on Earth & still be accepted by Him, even receive His Forgiveness. If there was no sacrifice to appease & hide God's Wrath for sin & disobedience, then immediate death & consignment to Hell was certain. But they were kept in His Love & Care, looking forward to that glorious Day when the Lamb of God would far surpass any of their feeble temporary sacrifices & make atonement for their sins completely & forever. Hence, the 'holding station' of those righteous ones confined in Hades, pending the completion of the Work of the Cross, to which you also disagree. Onto Page 2.
And regards to "faith that saves": since I don't believe that Israel of old were saved people (as we understand it: the salvation granted us through the Cross), the matter of 'their faith & our faith', is not an issue, as they're dissimilar. There are people even today that express love & faith in God, but unless that love & faith are generated by the Holy Spirit undergirded by contrition over their sins, their faith is spurious & of the human kind. Israel's faith was like that: not Holy Spirit generated, human, yet based on being God's chosen people, God loving them & revealing Himself to them, experiencing His blessings beyond measure, & the promise of the coming Messiah.
Yes, God can never overlook sin (whether of Israel or Gentiles), but the need for sacrifices, coupled with faith & obedience by Israel at that time, averted God's Wrath. Therefore, I agree that "the question of the Nature of Salvation itself", as well as the need & importance of understanding the nature of the old sacrificial system, which clearly reveals God's Purposes under these Covenants, is of great importance.
quoting you;
What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
This is unscriptual, it didn't apply until He actually did it.
quoting you;
"If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly".
Job 1:1 Job 1:8 Job 2:3 Enoch was take up to God, do you really believe God would allow a sinner into heaven? Both of these was before the law, & after the law 1 Kings 11:4 2 Kings 20:3 1Chronicles 29:9 Luke 1:6 Philippians 3:6
What saith thou of thyself?
Friend, your putting your foot in your mouth again!
The precise translation of Hebrew 4:1-2 is,
" 1. Let us fear, as long as the promise of entering His rest (it means Heaven) is left (it means it is still valid), any of you seems to come short
2. For we were told the good news {in grk "esmen evengelismenoi"}like them, but the word they heard didn't benefit them, not being mixed (it means joined) with faith in them that heard it."
Here Paul makes a comparison between people in OT that heard the good news of entering their rest (land of promise) but didn't believe those news, and hence they never entered the land, and those in the NT who may be in the same situation, not believing the good news of entering the real rest (Heaven) and hence they are in risk of not entering it'
The phrase in the KJV "the gospel preached" has the meaning "the good news we heard, we were told", the word gospel here has its initial meaning which is good news.
I know that Gospel means good news. But I don't think that the gospel is the rest as much as it is the gospel of Christ our Savior and this verse tells that both the NT people and OT people heard the same gospel. In the NT I can't recall the gospel ever being spoken of as anything other than who Jesus is and what He did to save us, and because of this gospel, those who believer by faith will have this rest spoken of in Hebrews. The good news is Jesus, the giver of eternal life, the gift is the rest-salvation of our souls.
This is my understanding.
After Jesus' Crucifixion, yes, that shed Blood applied to all, so Israel could not be saved in this way pre-Cross. But they awaited that day when that Blood would apply, Israel had to demonstrate obedience to God & works (performing those sacrifices, rigid obedience to the Laws, etc.) - and this was so that their sins would be covered (not taken away, for only Christ's Blood could do that), that their sins might be 'shielded' from God's View through sacrifice. Was this 'Works'? Certainly. Because God required an effort be put in so that sinners were aware of their sins & requirement for payment to prevent justice being served. Otherwise, God Himself could have provided the sacrificial animal, caused it to die & burn, as the people watched on in appreciation. But God chose that man had to put the effort (works) by proper animal selection & performing all the rites necessary to present his sins to God for forgiveness. And all this pointed to a future day when "God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering"; the offering that all the old sacrifices pointed to & that would be a permanent "once & for all" offering for sin, unlike man's offerings which only covered his sin, awaiting that day.
So yes, "only one salvation", but God had to put Israel under the Old Covenant of Law & Works, that they might know Who God is, their sinfulness, & how great was His Love for them that He should accept their sacrifices. If their 'salvation' was all of Grace alone, then there would be no need for their effort (works) to contribute to it by performing those sacrifices. But to reiterate, Israel didn't receive the salvation that we know today, but they knew God's Forgiveness, awaiting the day when the faithful among them would have Christ's Blood applied to them.
John 3:5-10 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Christ was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8
Hebrews 4:2,3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Romans 3:10,11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
In trying to understand the nature of salvation, we have to start with the condition of mankind before God applies his salvation to those whom he chooses to save. And we read that in Romans 3. "There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that seek after God."
Salvation of Old Testament believers and New Testament believers, throughout the history of the world, is by God's mercy and grace alone. And the basis, for that salvation is that God chose, whom he would save, paid for the sins of those whom he chose to save, and applied that salvation to their life, so that they become born again. and the efficacy of Christ's Atonement applies from the foundation of the world.
Mankind has no inherent faith that will please God, and result in salvation. The faith that we have is a gift of God and his part and parcel of the salvation that God applies to our life.
The old testament sacrifices never saved anyone.
But Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord. Just like every Old Testament and New Testament believer believer that God saves.
I should clarify my understanding of Acts 26:22,23 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
The phrase "unto the people, and unto the Gentiles" is, I believe, a phrase used here by God to encompasses all peoples of the World, Jew and Gentile alike, throughout time, to whom God would send the Gospel. Abel, Enoch, Noah, the Ninevites, the Queen of Sheba were not Jews. They were all "Gentiles" and not descendants of Abraham.
I am sorry to say that the more we discussed these things, The more convinced I am that we have a very different view of the nature of the Bible and the nature of salvation. And I have to confess that I shudder at some of the things that I read in your comments, particularly this last one.
God's elect are not limited to those from national Israel. The elect of God are all of those whom God chose to save from before the foundation of the world, and for whom Christ paid for their sins. The elect of God includes all true believers throughout time from any nation whom God saves. Jew and Gentile alike. And that Salvation is 100% the work of God.
The REST of Hebrews 4 is the REST of Salvation where we cease trusting in any work the we do and REST only in the WORK of God of Christ to save us. And that is the GOSPEL that was preached to them and us.
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Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
Mark 4:33,34 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Chris,
The efficacy of Christ's payment for the sins of ALL whom He has saved or ever will save extends throughout the history of the world beginning from creation.
The Ceremonial Laws which Old Testament Israel were commanded to observe were "historical parables" designed to teach them, and us, about the nature of Salvation, the forgiveness of sins. Observance of these Ceremonial Laws did not save anyone. And apart from Salvation, there is no forgiveness of sins.
Old Testament Israel did not have the whole Bible as we do today; so there understanding of the Nature of Salvation would not have been nearly as complete as ours should be today. Although Jesus was critical of Nicodemus for not understanding that we must be "Born Again".
But God does not require an extensive knowledge of the Word of God to save because Salvation is 100% the Work of God Alone, i.e. Grace Alone. The Salvation of the 120,000 Ninevites who humbled themselves and repented of their wickedness at the preaching of Jonah is a beautiful example.
So once again, there is ONE AND ONLY ONE Salvation for anyone whom God saves throughout the history of the world. And that Salvation is by God's Grace Alone, apart from any obedience to the Law of God.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I'm sorry, but that is not what the Bible is teaching. Please read my last response to Chris's responses.
There can never be forgiveness for sins, any sin, unless that sin is fully paid for in accordance with the Law of God and that payment is Eternal Death. And that requires that Christ Himself must pay for any sin that is to be forgiven.
Forgiveness for sin is part and parcel of Salvation itself. God must then apply that Salvation to the Believer by causing them to become Born Again by God's Grace Alone. And all of that is required for any sin of any person throughout time to be forgiven. And we know from Hebrews and the rest of the Bible that no sacrifice of animals, nor any observance of the Ceremonial Laws, nor any obedience to any Law of God can save us so that our sins can be forgiven.
There is one and only one Salvation for everyone throughout time that God saves. And apart from Salvation there is no forgiveness for sin. God does not have separate Salvation plans for Old Testament Believers and New Testament Believers.
This act might appear to us just as symbolism, awaiting its fulfilment in Christ, yet if there was no merit gained by its performance then (i.e. that sinners were forgiven by their submission & obedience), then the whole system would be a farce, offering a false promise, leaving those eminent ones such as Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, & many others, without any present assurance & hope for eternity. Even though it was "not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (i.e. remove them entirely, but had to be sacrificed yearly), God had instituted this & through it He kept His people covered, shielded from His Wrath & forgave them when they looked to Him & waited upon Him.
I've always understood that what was required of Israel in those days were for their benefit & blessing, yet only giving a foretaste & for a complete revelation found only in Christ & the Gift of His Holy Spirit.
So what did Jesus' Blood do that no other sacrifice could?
A. it was the only RANSOM price for sin (all sin, for all people): Matthew 20:28; 1 Timothy 2:5,6.
B. it was the only way to bring RECONCILIATION (no longer enemies, but now accepted & in peace) with God ( 2 Corinthians 5:18-21).
C. it was the only way to PROPITIATE (to appease & turn away God's Anger) knowing that His Son's Blood fully met His Holy Demands to save those who would believe in Him ( 1 John 2:1,2).
D. it was the only acceptable SUBSTITUTE that it would be Jesus that received man's condemnation, that no animal's blood could ever accomplish ( 2 Corinthians 5:21).
E. and all this gave irrefutable proof that God's LOVE for sinners was genuine & lasting, that His Own Life, of His only Begotten Son, should be evident to all.
True love can be seen when "a man lays down HIS life for his friends" ( John 15:13), & not just delegating the task to another. The Blood of Jesus, God's Son, shows us clearly, & should also do to the world, that God is indeed a God of Love, giving His best, His all to secure our salvation: given to all those who will respond to Him in faith in this great Work.
my wrong Scripture reference,
not 2 Corinthians 2:15, but 2 Corinthians 5:15
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain:
O precious is the flow
that makes me white as snow;
no other fount I know;
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
2 For my pardon this I see:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
For my cleansing this my plea:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]
3 Nothing can for sin atone:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Naught of good that I have done:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]
4 This is all my hope and peace:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
This is all my righteousness:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]
Leviticus 17:11 Christ life was in His Blood
In Christ the words Blood & Life are synonym
1 John 2:6 2 Cor 2:15
in love & truth
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