There is a great Divide in the Christian world today!
The Many. There are those Christians who believe they can never stop sinning, and even so, believe they will attain salvation/heaven. They reinforce this sin message between themselves, all the while continuing to live worldly lives, and assuring themselves that sin will be all around them engulfing them for the rest of their lives.
1 John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
1 John 2:15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
James 4:8 "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."
The Few. Then there are VERY FEW Christians who believe they can actually stop sinning with the help of God's Holy Spirit, and they strive to do so everyday, as the scriptures command, eventually overcoming sin, and winning the ultimate prize Salvation!
1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Now when we compare the above (2) Christain mindsets - we can now put this verse below into the proper perspective:
Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
A good question to ask ourselves EVERYDAY - Do we want to be counted in the Many, or the Few?
Hi Bro Dan , so , can I please ask you a question ? You said : eventually overcoming sin and winning the ultimate prize , salvation . Based on this statement , are you saying that salvation is won by us ? by our efforts ? If the answer to that is yes , then where does Christ's sacrifice come in ? If we can attain salvation by our own efforts , what do we need Christ for ? Please don't be offended , this is a genuine question and I would appreciate your answer so I can understand what you are saying :) .
God hates sin! We need to learn to "hate sin" as much as God hates it!
Very true..you will not need a Savior when you overcome sin, because you will have have listened to God, applied his commands to your life, and allowed Christ to perform His marvelous work in you, to help you overcome the sins in this life - that you and many Christian's believe is impossible. Nothing is impossible for God! And yes, you will then be ready to enter into the Kingdom and "you will not need a Savior as you say"you will have allowed the Savior to do His miraculous work in you at present!
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
If we keep sinning because we feel that we can't stop sinning we are not following Jesus/Gods commands, nor embracing His Spirit. We are keeping our worldly sinful lives intact, and not listening to His instructions, to give up this life, and live according to His Commands.
John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
If we are truly born again we will learn to hate sin as much as God. Who do you think wants us to think we can never stop sinning? It's not Jesus/God, because He tells us point blank: To stop sinning!
1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
By saying we will never overcome sin we are saying that the Son of God can't overcome the devil's sin that works in us, and that we will always be a servant to the devil.
We need to read the scripture, and believe, and apply it to our lives now!
Good evening Bro Dan! Good evening! A few of my own thoughts. The present grace to deny ourselves and follow the Lord without willing sin is a peaceable reality where the same reality is true freedom in Christ without condemnation. This reality is His present Kingdom which has no end. If the Kingdom is another day, then we may be in our own works and not the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary. So we harken unto Him today.
Always nice to hear from you, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I see it as: It is His way, not our way. Regarding the kingdom, hopefully it should be residing in us as in Luke 17:21 but we must be aware of 1 John 3:28 and Matt 6:24 as well as trying to save our lives, and surely we need to Matt 16:24 and must surely die to this life/world Matt 16:25.
And finally, Matthew 16:26
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
Thank you Bro Dan, I feel the same. Thank you for your reply. It may be tomorrow or Tuesday when I can more thoughtfully meditate some more on your thoughts and my own on this subject. Stay the course!
In Truth, the day you are completely free from sin, is the day you meet your Savior ! 1 Pet 1:7-9
I can't tell you how Dan would answer that question,
but here's mine
It's not a work of our self-efforts in our own strengths or our own understanding, it following the Light of Christ in our hearts, the still small Voice of Conscience that convicts us of our wrong doings & directs us to do what is just, good & holy, Titus 2:11
Micah 6:8 , its the Treasure we have in these earthen vessels, enlightening us in the power of Holy Spirit, picking up the Cross & denying self, & causing us to will & do of His good pleasure, which works were finishes from the foundation of the world, Hebrews 4:3Acts 15:18 We enter into His works, coming to a place of rest from our own works
Then there some that are persuaded they don't have to do anything, but believe, without becoming a doer of the Word, thats more like being a demon, for they believes, but they do not obey.
Consider all that Scriptures, beginning with Abraham, Gen 18:19 by his obedience Abraham proved his faith & his love for God
John 15:10 he abided in God's love & received all that God had promise him, through his obedience to God's commands.
Today's Christianity says you can be a Christian without keeping His commandments, God loves you & His grace got you covered. This is a changing of the definition of Grace, which is defined in Scripture as Titus 2:12 Grace is the power of God to reveal our sins & to takes us out of them, not to encourage or pamper us in our sins.
Friends, God salvation is a free gift, but faith without works is dead. James 2:17-26 this is clearly seen & understood in the whole of Scriptures. Jesus Himself learn obedience by the things that He suffer, & became perfect, perfected our salvation, all for our sakes, that we may follow Him. John 14:31
Jesus asks us to take a hold of his outstretched hand and pick up our crosses and follow Him. Does that take effort on our part? When you get up in the morning to read your bible, does that take effort on your part? Does it take effort on our part to pray, to ask for forgiveness, to repent? Does it take effort to give up our worldly luxuries, material things. I think we can agree the answer to all these questions would be Yes.
We are are supposed to be walking with Jesus/God toward our salvation in heaven. 'It is a relationship". He is NOT giving us a "free ticket" like many christians have been deceived by satan to believe. He wants us to work toward becoming Godly, and in doing so we will getting prepared and ready to live in His Kingdom. If we continue to live sinful worldly lives we are not following Christs examples that he gives to us so vividly throughout the scriptures and we will not receive salvation! Hebrews 10:26
Yes, it takes effort on our part. Jesus tells the adulterous to stop sinning, John 8:11. Jesus tells the invalid that he healed to stop sinning or something worse will happen to him John 5:14
Jesus expects the adulteress, the invalid, and all of us that want to inherit the Kingdom to stop sinning. Does this take an effort on our part? Yes. Jesus knows this takes effort for us. Jesus tells us we need to become humble, obedient, and teachable by following God's Commandments and by striving each day to become "sin free". Jesus promises us that he will give us The Comforter-His Holy Spirit to enable us to actually overcome sin and not only sin - but this entire World! John 14:17
I will close with a couple of great verses.
1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."
Dear Bro Dan , I agree with everything you said in response to me . There's just one problem , try as I might I can't stop sinning ! Ok , so I'm not a murderer or a thief , I've never been a jealous person , I help to look after my atheist and aggressive alcoholic parents , for no earthly reward and without grudging , I only drink a small amount of alcohol , I never refuse to give to anyone who asks from me , I've visited people in prison , I've given away clothes , I've taken in homeless people , I do all kinds for my mother in law who doesn't like me much :) , I could go on . Despite all of this I'm still a sinner . 100 per cent sinful flesh . I'm happily married with one aging cat . I'm not poor but definitely not rich either , I have everything I could ever want or need and most importantly I belive in the Holy One of Israel and His Son , which means I try very hard not to worry about or get too entangled in the things of this life but , I still sin . I still think bad thoughts about people sometimes . That's a sin and I still do it . There are others . The day that I'm not a sinner will be the day that I die . Being sinless isn't about obeying the law . It's about having Christ in your heart 24/7 and behaving exactly as he did . It's about having a pure heart , being only good at all times in spite of the provocations and temptations of this life . If keeping the law made us sinless we wouldn't need Christ . Keeping rules doesn't give us the Spirit of Truth , that's about love and faith , unwavering 100 percent and 24/7 . I try every day and I fail every day . In this life , I shall always fall short of the standard of Christ , that doesn't mean that I don't try , I do , every single day for about 29 years now . I believe that every Christian tries every day . We shall be perfect when we are no longer bound by this world and our sinful flesh . We shall be like him then . Clean and pure because of our faith and the way that we have behaved because of our faith.
After reading your post yesterday, my heart became heavy, in concern for you, I thought, such a tender & caring spirit, & yet very deceived. It would be negligent & uncaring on my part not to response with the following.
Please consider this as a exhortation to truth, as a token of His love for you, for whom Proverbs 3:12
You've stated
1The day that I'm not a sinner will be the day that I die,, ,,,,,,,,, if you live as a habitual sinner & die in that state, so will you be judged. Matt 16:27 Sanctification "making us holy" is on this side of the grave only.
2Being sinless isn't about obeying the law,,,,,, yes it is, The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that set us free from the law of sin & death. Which law is being led by the Spirit of God for these are the sons of God, & the Spirit of God will never lead one into sin. Friend, by your own confession you're not being led by His Spirit.
3It's about having Christ in you heart 24/7 & behaving exactly as He did, having a pure heart, being only good at all times in spite of the provocations & temptations of this life,,,,,,,yes, very true, but again by your confession you not & yet it is the Spirit of God that reveal this to you, as an invitation for you to live up too & where He invites He also empowers.
Thank you so much for your kindness and encouragement :) , I really needed to hear that , I always read and appreciate all your posts . Keep up the good work please :) .
4 If keeping the law made us sinless we wouldn't need Christ,,,,,,Christ came to fulfilled the law, & all those who follow Him in the regeneration fulfill the law too, by a higher law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which supersedes the law of the OT, through the Spirit of Grace which has appear to you, making you aware of your sins. He checks you in the provocations & temptations of this life & show you what not to do & what to do Titus 2:12 & if you'll obey, you'll sin not.
5Keeping rules doesn't give us the Spirit of Truth, this is a false statement, Acts 5:32Gal 3:2 believe that it is He who is within you speaking to you & if you will surrender to His guidance, little by little, you'll increase in His Spirit, until nothing will be impossible for you Philippians 4:13
Jema,
The very essences of the salvation that Jesus gave His life for is to bring us back to a life of obedience. Hebrews 5:9
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven,
Disobedience makes this impossible or to become a child of God
A personal testimony
Correct me if I'm wrong, I've read that you love all type of worldly music, I was once there. Being a Christian & doing this does not go together, Just like watching tv, it glorifies all the works of the flesh of Gal 5 feeds the carnal part in man which is enmity against Godly part. I was having the same troubling problems your facing & God began opening me to why I was so easily captivated by the devil at his will. Our eyes & ears are the windows to our soul & spirit, I was feeding my self with sin & death, 1Cor 10:212Cor 6:14 I pick up the Cross to it, so that I may become pure in heart, The Blood of Jesus reaches to the cleansing of the conscience/heart from the evil one. But we must become obedient & pick up the cross to all things that would defile it. & so will all do, who God has inspired to live 24/7 for Christ.
It's wonderful to hear you are taking loving care of your parents, that takes a lot of effort on your part. You will receive many blessings from God, as He asks us to specifically do this Exodus 20:1 "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee."
I understand your trials/tribulations and caring for your family members. You have my respect, as I know first hand how trying this is, my wife and I cared for her parents until they passed. One had Alzheimer's, the other overall poor health. I truly believe that lots of prayer will help to provide you with the continued support for dealing with this life issue.
It sounds to me that you are continuing to pursue the goal of overcoming sin in your life which is what God wants us to do. Yes, I agree, This is what Paul was working on and struggling with, and if it wasn't "important " he would not have been focused so much on it! One of the points I was making in my original post on this topic was: Many Christian's continue to tell themselves and others that they can never stop sinning. I feel this is a defeatist attitude! We stop ourselves before we can even get started. Nothing that is worthwhile accomplishing in life can be mastered or completed successfully - if we continually tell ourselves - we can't.
In an effort to understand how one group can continue to live sinful worldly lives, while ignoring some or all of God's Commandments and scripture, while telling themselves and others that they can never stop sinning, and believe still - they will receive salvation.
Personally, I wish there were more Christian's encouraging each other to stop sinning, and how to get there constructively, rather than resigning to living a sinful and worldly life that does not agree with the scripture.
The Many. There are those Christians who believe they can never stop sinning, and even so, believe they will attain salvation/heaven. They reinforce this sin message between themselves, all the while continuing to live worldly lives, and assuring themselves that sin will be all around them engulfing them for the rest of their lives.
1 John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
1 John 2:15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
James 4:8 "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."
The Few. Then there are VERY FEW Christians who believe they can actually stop sinning with the help of God's Holy Spirit, and they strive to do so everyday, as the scriptures command, eventually overcoming sin, and winning the ultimate prize Salvation!
1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Now when we compare the above (2) Christain mindsets - we can now put this verse below into the proper perspective:
Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
A good question to ask ourselves EVERYDAY - Do we want to be counted in the Many, or the Few?
GBU
Those are some good and valid points. I was wondering the same thing and look forward to seeing the response.
Personally, the day that I can say that I am completely free from sin is the day that I can say I no longer need a Savior!
Blessings to you!
God hates sin! We need to learn to "hate sin" as much as God hates it!
Very true..you will not need a Savior when you overcome sin, because you will have have listened to God, applied his commands to your life, and allowed Christ to perform His marvelous work in you, to help you overcome the sins in this life - that you and many Christian's believe is impossible. Nothing is impossible for God! And yes, you will then be ready to enter into the Kingdom and "you will not need a Savior as you say"you will have allowed the Savior to do His miraculous work in you at present!
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
If we keep sinning because we feel that we can't stop sinning we are not following Jesus/Gods commands, nor embracing His Spirit. We are keeping our worldly sinful lives intact, and not listening to His instructions, to give up this life, and live according to His Commands.
John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
If we are truly born again we will learn to hate sin as much as God. Who do you think wants us to think we can never stop sinning? It's not Jesus/God, because He tells us point blank: To stop sinning!
1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
By saying we will never overcome sin we are saying that the Son of God can't overcome the devil's sin that works in us, and that we will always be a servant to the devil.
We need to read the scripture, and believe, and apply it to our lives now!
GBU
Always nice to hear from you, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I see it as: It is His way, not our way. Regarding the kingdom, hopefully it should be residing in us as in Luke 17:21 but we must be aware of 1 John 3:28 and Matt 6:24 as well as trying to save our lives, and surely we need to Matt 16:24 and must surely die to this life/world Matt 16:25.
And finally, Matthew 16:26
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
GBU
I can't tell you how Dan would answer that question,
but here's mine
It's not a work of our self-efforts in our own strengths or our own understanding, it following the Light of Christ in our hearts, the still small Voice of Conscience that convicts us of our wrong doings & directs us to do what is just, good & holy, Titus 2:11
Micah 6:8 , its the Treasure we have in these earthen vessels, enlightening us in the power of Holy Spirit, picking up the Cross & denying self, & causing us to will & do of His good pleasure, which works were finishes from the foundation of the world, Hebrews 4:3 Acts 15:18 We enter into His works, coming to a place of rest from our own works
Then there some that are persuaded they don't have to do anything, but believe, without becoming a doer of the Word, thats more like being a demon, for they believes, but they do not obey.
Consider all that Scriptures, beginning with Abraham, Gen 18:19 by his obedience Abraham proved his faith & his love for God
John 15:10 he abided in God's love & received all that God had promise him, through his obedience to God's commands.
Today's Christianity says you can be a Christian without keeping His commandments, God loves you & His grace got you covered. This is a changing of the definition of Grace, which is defined in Scripture as Titus 2:12 Grace is the power of God to reveal our sins & to takes us out of them, not to encourage or pamper us in our sins.
Friends, God salvation is a free gift, but faith without works is dead. James 2:17-26 this is clearly seen & understood in the whole of Scriptures. Jesus Himself learn obedience by the things that He suffer, & became perfect, perfected our salvation, all for our sakes, that we may follow Him. John 14:31
in love & truth
Thanks for your response and question.
Jesus asks us to take a hold of his outstretched hand and pick up our crosses and follow Him. Does that take effort on our part? When you get up in the morning to read your bible, does that take effort on your part? Does it take effort on our part to pray, to ask for forgiveness, to repent? Does it take effort to give up our worldly luxuries, material things. I think we can agree the answer to all these questions would be Yes.
We are are supposed to be walking with Jesus/God toward our salvation in heaven. 'It is a relationship". He is NOT giving us a "free ticket" like many christians have been deceived by satan to believe. He wants us to work toward becoming Godly, and in doing so we will getting prepared and ready to live in His Kingdom. If we continue to live sinful worldly lives we are not following Christs examples that he gives to us so vividly throughout the scriptures and we will not receive salvation! Hebrews 10:26
Yes, it takes effort on our part. Jesus tells the adulterous to stop sinning, John 8:11. Jesus tells the invalid that he healed to stop sinning or something worse will happen to him John 5:14
Jesus expects the adulteress, the invalid, and all of us that want to inherit the Kingdom to stop sinning. Does this take an effort on our part? Yes. Jesus knows this takes effort for us. Jesus tells us we need to become humble, obedient, and teachable by following God's Commandments and by striving each day to become "sin free". Jesus promises us that he will give us The Comforter-His Holy Spirit to enable us to actually overcome sin and not only sin - but this entire World! John 14:17
I will close with a couple of great verses.
1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."
GBU
Dear Jema
After reading your post yesterday, my heart became heavy, in concern for you, I thought, such a tender & caring spirit, & yet very deceived. It would be negligent & uncaring on my part not to response with the following.
Please consider this as a exhortation to truth, as a token of His love for you, for whom Proverbs 3:12
You've stated
1The day that I'm not a sinner will be the day that I die,, ,,,,,,,,, if you live as a habitual sinner & die in that state, so will you be judged. Matt 16:27 Sanctification "making us holy" is on this side of the grave only.
2Being sinless isn't about obeying the law,,,,,, yes it is, The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that set us free from the law of sin & death. Which law is being led by the Spirit of God for these are the sons of God, & the Spirit of God will never lead one into sin. Friend, by your own confession you're not being led by His Spirit.
3It's about having Christ in you heart 24/7 & behaving exactly as He did, having a pure heart, being only good at all times in spite of the provocations & temptations of this life,,,,,,,yes, very true, but again by your confession you not & yet it is the Spirit of God that reveal this to you, as an invitation for you to live up too & where He invites He also empowers.
4 If keeping the law made us sinless we wouldn't need Christ,,,,,,Christ came to fulfilled the law, & all those who follow Him in the regeneration fulfill the law too, by a higher law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which supersedes the law of the OT, through the Spirit of Grace which has appear to you, making you aware of your sins. He checks you in the provocations & temptations of this life & show you what not to do & what to do Titus 2:12 & if you'll obey, you'll sin not.
5Keeping rules doesn't give us the Spirit of Truth, this is a false statement, Acts 5:32 Gal 3:2 believe that it is He who is within you speaking to you & if you will surrender to His guidance, little by little, you'll increase in His Spirit, until nothing will be impossible for you Philippians 4:13
Jema,
The very essences of the salvation that Jesus gave His life for is to bring us back to a life of obedience. Hebrews 5:9
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven,
Disobedience makes this impossible or to become a child of God
A personal testimony
Correct me if I'm wrong, I've read that you love all type of worldly music, I was once there. Being a Christian & doing this does not go together, Just like watching tv, it glorifies all the works of the flesh of Gal 5 feeds the carnal part in man which is enmity against Godly part. I was having the same troubling problems your facing & God began opening me to why I was so easily captivated by the devil at his will. Our eyes & ears are the windows to our soul & spirit, I was feeding my self with sin & death, 1Cor 10:21 2Cor 6:14 I pick up the Cross to it, so that I may become pure in heart, The Blood of Jesus reaches to the cleansing of the conscience/heart from the evil one. But we must become obedient & pick up the cross to all things that would defile it. & so will all do, who God has inspired to live 24/7 for Christ.
Remember; where He invites, He empowers.
In love & truth.
Thanks for your reply.
It's wonderful to hear you are taking loving care of your parents, that takes a lot of effort on your part. You will receive many blessings from God, as He asks us to specifically do this Exodus 20:1 "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee."
I understand your trials/tribulations and caring for your family members. You have my respect, as I know first hand how trying this is, my wife and I cared for her parents until they passed. One had Alzheimer's, the other overall poor health. I truly believe that lots of prayer will help to provide you with the continued support for dealing with this life issue.
It sounds to me that you are continuing to pursue the goal of overcoming sin in your life which is what God wants us to do. Yes, I agree, This is what Paul was working on and struggling with, and if it wasn't "important " he would not have been focused so much on it! One of the points I was making in my original post on this topic was: Many Christian's continue to tell themselves and others that they can never stop sinning. I feel this is a defeatist attitude! We stop ourselves before we can even get started. Nothing that is worthwhile accomplishing in life can be mastered or completed successfully - if we continually tell ourselves - we can't.
In an effort to understand how one group can continue to live sinful worldly lives, while ignoring some or all of God's Commandments and scripture, while telling themselves and others that they can never stop sinning, and believe still - they will receive salvation.
Personally, I wish there were more Christian's encouraging each other to stop sinning, and how to get there constructively, rather than resigning to living a sinful and worldly life that does not agree with the scripture.
GBU
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