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First, I ask your forgiveness, and say the KJV is one of the most trustworthy English translations, but they are not perfect. When we study pray, and the Holy Spirit will give us understanding, we can trust the Holy Spirit will lead and teach us because the Spirit is truth, 1 John 5:6 do not doubt that. Believe the Scripture by being led by the Holy Spirit, not the traditions of man.
(Milk, then meat) it is a lifelong walk, and some answers will not be known but the one answer that matters is Jesus is the way.
John's gospel, his letters, and Revelation have one thing in common, to show and give evidence that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah, the only begotten Son of God who the Father sent, and in Him is life, our salvation, eternal life. Acts 4:11-12 The Father sent the Son John 4:34 John 5:30 John 6:29 Jesus came down from heaven to do the will of the Father John 6:38.
Jesus came out from God John 16:27 Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 Before Mary could touch Him, He said I ascend unto my Father, and to my God John 20:17 John's writings are full of who Jesus was, is, and will be.
What I posted was not a lie, it is a fact, maybe I should not have posted it on an open forum like this. I wanted to inspire the study, searching for the truth, and not causing doubt. It touches on a subject that many consider non-discussable, the Trinity doctrine.
This is from my heart; this doctrine has been placed equal to the gospel of Jesus. In many Churches, you are not saved and are not a Christian if you do not believe and confess this doctrine. Does the Church have the authority to say this?
Is there any Scripture that says our salvation is dependent on this doctrine that was 400 years after the Scriptures we have? Was it even discussed by Peter, John, Paul, or in any of the letters we have? I'll leave it there.
I am sorry if I have offended you.
Love you all and God bless,
RLW
Think about this, if you have 2 books and one of them is the original, the other is only a copy that changed the words to make it easier to read. Which book would you trust for complete Truth?
In the Old Testament we are told in ( Ps 12:6-7) v6 "The words of the LORD are pure words" Do you believe the Words of the LORD are pure Words? I believe that is 100% Truth!
I believe EVERY WORD of God is pure! ( Prov 30:5-6) v6 "Add thou not unto his words" All modern versions add to His Words!
v7 "Thou shalt (keep them), O LORD, thou shalt (preserve) them from this generation for ever".
I don't understand how anybody could believe that God would preserve His Words in the Manuscripts but not preserve His Words for the people in the last generation, for us today and for ever? How could that help us today?
That would mean God didn't care if we have ((His Truth)) written down in a book to study in the Lastdays, or if we didn't have ( 2 Tim 2:15) How do we rightly divide the word of truth if we don't have the word of truth today? If He didn't preserve His Words for this generation then all we have to study right now is the words of men, which would NOT be the word of truth. that would mean these verses are a lie.
These verses and all of the KJB verses are 100% Truth!
If we do not have the pure Words of the LORD today then how do you know what is truth and what is not? You would not know.
The Holy Spirit will not lead us into all truth if we are studying a book, or a copy that was written by men and is not the truth, not the Words of the LORD. There is only one truth!
We must study the word of truth, to be led into the truth! We should all speak the same thing ( 1 Cor 1:10) and be perfectly joined together in the same mind.
Anybody who thinks the KJB is just another translation written by men please show how you come up with that from the word of God. I will put the Word of God over any interpretation of any man, any day!
God's Word is Truth!
Blessings to you.
I agree with you the KJV is the best translation into English, but from one language to another at best, there will be errors. We must rely on the Holy Spirit to show us the meaning of what we read and study.
A simple one, it is like in Acts 12:4 James was killed, and Peter was put in prison and was probably going to be killed after Passover, but they used the word Easter for the Greek word Passover, which means Passover.
In context, it is clear it should be Passover, even if they were thinking the Romans and Greeks probably celebrated Easter they would not end at the same time. This is a wrong translation, but it is clear the meaning whether it says Easter or Passover.
God has preserved His word for us today and the Holy Spirit is sent to help us understand it as it is the exact words God inspired the writer to write.
God bless,
RLW
The grk for both Passover and Easter is Pascha, it is called the same whether the christian Easter or the Jewish Passover. So it is not really a wrong translation. The translators selected Easter for Pascha, though it would be more precise to select Passover since the verse is specifically referred to the Jewish feast.
Sory for the delay, thank you for your reply, I agree with the word, and it being translated Easter is no big deal it does not change the meaning of what was going on. Easter is one day, and Passover is one day, and it is a preparation day, it is not a feast. The Passover meal is eaten on the night of the 15th of Nisan not on Passover day the 14th. When Luke wrote Acts, Easter was not a Christian holiday, it would have been resurrection day or the Feast of Firstfruits.
When they translated it, Easter was a Christian Holiday that is the question why. Thank you for your knowledge of the Greek language you are a blessing to us on this site.
God bless,
RLW
Ronald this "simple one" is not so simple if we look deeper into it.
( Acts 12:3-4) v3 Tells us "he proceeded further to take Peter also (Then were the days of unleavened bread).
A look at ( Leviticus 23:5-6) v5 "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover". v6 "And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread".
The 14th day is passover, THEN the 15th day starts the feast of unleavened bread for 7 days.
( Acts 12:3) "Then were the days of unleavened bread" this would have been the day ((AFTER)) passover when the feast of unleavened bread begins.
( Acts 12:4) "And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people".
In this verse Easter is still to come, so it came AFTER the feast of unleavened bread at that time, he's keeping him till after Easter. Passover is the day BEFORE the feast of unleavened bread begins.
Do you see this is not a mistake in translation? There are no mistakes in the KJB!
( John 14:23) The word (words) is #3056; it means something said ((including the thought)), Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) doctrine. (If a man love me, ((he will keep my words)) and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him) If we keep His Words then the Holy Spirit will lead us into All truth.
(Including the thought) How did He do this? In ( 2 Pet 1:19-21)
( Rev 1:3) "and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things ((which are written therein))". IT IS WRITTEN!
( Rev 22:7) "blessed is he that keepeth the (sayings) of the prophecy ((of this book))". WRITTEN IN A BOOK!
The word (sayings) is the same meaning as the word (words) above. Which says (including the thought) of Christ.
The KJB is the True Word of God.
Thank you for your reply Ronald.
God Bless you.
Thank you, brother, I know I differ in this fervently held belief from most, and not believing it is offensive to many. I just would like to share just a little of my understanding of where I am on this, I know many will disagree.
We cannot deny the divinity of Christ, He came forth from the Father. Do I believe Jesus was created? NO. Do I believe the Son of God began at Bethlehem, at His birth? NO. If we look at Micah 5:2 at the prophecy of His birth Micah says He will come forth, the Hebrew word yatsa means to go or come out.
"Whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting." The Hebrew word for everlasting is olam means long duration, antiquity, futurity, and days of eternity.
Jesus came forth and was the Son of God before creation as we see He is the beginning of creation all came through Him and for Him, Rev. 3:14 Colossians 1:16. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who came forth from the Father, (came out of) not created. Does Jesus confirm this, John, 7:29 John 8:42 John 16:27 John 17:8?
My understanding is Jesus is the literal Son of God, truly begotten of the Father. Jesus came out from God, His true Son, of the same matter, and divinity as the Father with divine inheritance, John 5:26 John 6:57 Heb. 1:4, not a title as a part of God. God truly gave His true only begotten Son John 3:16.
As the Gospel of Jesus tells us, all who believeth that Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. My understanding is if I do not believe Jesus is truly the Son of God I deny Him. That brings in 1 John 2:22 if I say Jesus is God, I deny that there is a Father and a Son.
Just a little and thank you again for your caring reply, you do not have to reply I just wanted to tell just a little.
God bless,
RLW
Sory for the delay, thank you for your reply like you said it is a very contentious subject with roots that are 1600 years old and nowhere in Scripture is salvation based on it. That was done in the Athanasian Creed in 415 AD. I want get into all that.
Thanks again and Truth Will Out.
God bless,
RLW
As I pointed out in another comment, we must be extremely careful when talking about the God Head, as our finite minds cannot fully grasp the Nature of Infinite God. We read the Bible and accept what we read by faith without attempting to go beyond that. And there is no question that Jesus, the Lord Jesus Christ, was and is Eternal God Himself.
I am a bit shocked by you statement. And that is absolutely not what the Bible teaches. In the first place if Jesus was not God, He could not have paid for the sins of anyone by enduring the Wrath of God, eternal death required by the Law of God and then have risen again.
Here are just a couple of verses that militate against what you are suggesting:
Speaking of Jesus, we read in Colossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.
And then in John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
And there are others, like John 1:1-5.
Now you do make a very interesting point about Jesus being called the "SON" of God, and "BEGOTTEN" of the Father. There is no question that Christ existed from Eternity past as Eternal God Himself and will continue to exist throughout Eternity future as Eternal God Himself. But it is fair to ask the question, When did Christ "become" the Son of God? Because the word "Begotten" signifies a "beginning". I submit that Christ became the Son of God when He rose from the Dead. But Jesus is referred to as the Son of God even before going to the Cross here on earth. Without getting into a detailed discussion, I think the case can be made that Christ was, very literally, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" Rev13:8.
To be continued
I am not offended in any way. Your argument is not with me, it is with the Word of God and God Himself.
But if Christ is not God, He cannot be our Savior and we are still in our sins and subject to the Wrath of God.
And that is not a gospel I would ever want to associate myself with.
I can't think of a more serious question for anyone to resolve.
May God lead you into truth as you search His Word.
Paul even declared, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16.
Speaking of Jesus, for He alone could be so described in that verse, it should leave one with no doubt that in Him dwelt 'all the fullness of the Godhead bodily '. It was indeed a mystery & certainly difficult to grasp with human intellect, but with both faith & understanding the nature of the sacrificial atonement & substitutionary aspects, no other sacrifice could ever make such a complete & eternal payment for our sins. The first Adam was made from the elements of the Earth but the last Adam was not but 'was a quickening (life-giving) Spirit '; for "the second man is the Lord from Heaven".
As a side note. The scriptures regarding the Son that I copied down yesterday and the day before and posted are on this subject and I believe there is an inspired order to them.
We can be faithful in Him.
I appreciate the opportunity for this conversation.
I am the one that appreciates the opportunity for this conversation. I read your posts, I have pulled those you speak of up and copied them, and I will reread and study them deeper in the context of this conversation. It's late here I will get back to you soon.
Your love for people shines in your words.
God bless,
RLW
God Bless our faithfulness and care for one another.
I have been reading and studying the Scriptures you have posted, I will touch on a few, by the way, great work. Again, I know my understanding may be different and I do not want to offend, I do thank you for this discussion.
John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." This life came from the Father,
My understanding of this, it is part of John's prolog to his gospel as John writes, "In the beginning" is the beginning of Jesus's ministry, not before creation. Mark used it in Mark 1:1 also in Luke 1:2 and John uses it again in 1 John 1:1 "From the beginning" he is again talking about the beginning of Jesus's ministry, "the Word of life" which was the eternal life from the Father, John 5:26. This life is that light that shined and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Jesus the true only begotten Son of God, who came out from the Father John 16:27. He was sent by the Father, Galatians 4:4 from the glory of the Father, the same matter, and divinity as the Father, and the Word was made flesh, born of a virgin and walked among us. We see in Revelation 19:13 His name is called The Word of God. Full of unfailing love and obedience to the Father, God was manifested in Him on earth 1 John 1:2 1 John 4:2 1 John 4:9. Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit without measure.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Will study more of your posts and reply, if you want to continue the conversation, I understand your time is tight.
God bless,
RLW
"we are comforted through the mercy of God and of the Lord, Jesus Christ and believe the gospel of John 3:16, namely, that God our heavenly Father in his unfathomable mercy has given us his only begotten Son Jesus Christ as a Redeemer and Savior, who fulfills for us all the righteousness of God, has taken away all of our sins, appeased the wrath of God, established peace between God and us, and has conquered Satan, the world, hell and death for us, etc. For he is the promised Seed who crushed the serpent's head, the Seed of blessing, in whom all generations of the earth are and shall be blessed that believe in his name.
He is the true Messiah, our King and High Priest who by the one holy offering of his body and blood has reconciled his people with God. He is the Throne of Grace established by God for us, whereby we draw nigh to God, and have free access unto him by the Holy Spirit. He is our horn of salvation, and in short, our eternal life. For there is no name given us under heaven whereby we may be saved but by his name alone."
So my thought on the origin of the Word that it proceeded from God in the beginning was before the Word was made flesh.
That is beautiful, as an old man that gave me chills. I totally agree that the Son of God came forth before anything that is. He was before the angels, before any creation, He is the beginning of creation, He is begotten, the only Son of God who came out from God and all that is, is by Him and for Him. Scripture does not tell us how he was begotten, born, or came out of God but He had a beginning.
My understanding that is not what John 1 is about, God has no beginning or no end, Jesus the Son of God is begotten He had a beginning, if not He would not truly be the Son of God. That beginning, (In the beginning) was before everything that is. He is the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" It started with the Son of God, and it will end with Him.
Thank you again for having this conversation still going through the Scriptures you posted.
God bless,
RLW
So this is partly why I cannot be found offended in any part of my life or belief. Tomorrow is another work day with sweat involved and my wife and daughter tomorrow are driving together across the nation. Next Sunday, God willing I will pick up my wife again at the airport!! Praying for safety for the week!
Love is the point of this conversation, I know!
I hope you don't mind if I add a comment.
People have shared much Scripture in this thread. I am one who believes that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. I believe each and all are fully God, but not three Gods. One in unity, three in persons, is what I believe. The Last Supper discourse in John is very informative on this.
But the Scripture I wish to share is Isaiah 9:6 where God is said to be an Everlasting Father (I understand that this prophecy is concerning Christ, but including this title shows that Christ is truly God in the oneness of the Godhead.
If God is called an Everlasting Father, then He is eternally a Father, therefore there would be an eternal Son or He would not be called Eternal Father. This title tells us that God did not become a Father at some point because He is said to be the Eternal Father. For this reason (and the many other verses speaking to Jesus' eternal divinity) I believe that the Son is also eternally a Son, and if eternal, then God because only God is eternal.
The concept of the Triunity of God is Scriptural. But it is an aspect of the Godhead that we in our finite, creaturely minds cannot ever comprehend. But we can believe it by faith in what is said in Scripture without having internal knowledge of how and what the Godhead is in His three Persons, but One Divine Being. It is easy for me to believe this, but others who have been taught differently will struggle with it more.
No, I do not mind. I understand the Trinity doctrine is deeply rooted, and I do not want to offend. But this doctrine was placed equal in value with there is only salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Without this doctrine one cannot be saved, please let me know if that is wrong.
My understanding, God cannot sin, and God cannot be tempted, Scripture is clear God sent His only begotten Son not Himself, John 3:16. Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit without measure to do all the miracles, and the work Jesus was sent to do by the Father. John 8:29 John 12:44 John 14:24.
Jesus humbled Himself, Phil. 2:8 Jesus was made flesh for the suffering of death, Heb. 2:9. Jesus was tempted the same as we are, Heb. 4:15. Jesus was born under the law, Gal. 4:4. Jesus fulfilled the law that only flesh could do. If he was not able to sin He could not fulfill the law, it would be a farce, God could not fulfill a law He wrote for man, man had to fulfill it. Matt. 12:28 Luke 4:1 John 3:34
Everlasting in Isaiah 9:6 it is the Hebrew word ad that means perpetuity a bond or a contract without an end, forever. We both agree God is eternal no beginning or end, but the Son is begotten/brought into existence before anything not created. When that was? Scripture only covers from the beginning.
Isaiah 9:6 Some things have been debated some say it was about Hezekiah. I feel it is about Jesus, but it could be looked at, as part of it about His first coming and part of it when He sets up the kingdom on earth. The titles or names in this verse, and how we understand them.
"His name shall be called" Many Hebrew names have God in them but that does not change who they are and mean they are God. The name is a vehicle to express things of God, it is the power of the name. and we see this through scripture. God was manifested through His Son, 1 John 1:1-2. That was what Jesus was saying to Philip in John 14:8-11. Jesus said; "the works that I do in my Father's name."
God bless,
RLW
Not to defend Catholic doctrine about Mary in any way whatsoever, but the teaching on Trintiy and the divine nature of Jesus began in the time of the apostles and the church spent many decades and centuries defending these two doctrines long before the Catholic Church took over the Roman empire to become the Holy Roman Empire established by Charlemagne and Pope Leo in the 800's A.D. It was after this time that the doctrines of Mary began to become Catholic teaching.
The early church defended the deity and humanity of Jesus against the Gnostics in first and second century, the Docetists, (the error that Jesus was God, but not human because flesh is evil), Adoptionism (the errant doctrine that He was human but became God at some point in His life), Ebionitism (the error that Jesus was human so therefore cannot be God), Arianism (the error that Jesus was the first created being above the angels but not of the Divine Godhead), Modalism (Monarchism) (the error that God incarnated into Jesus, that God plays different roles or modality, but it is the same person who is the Father and the Son and the Spirit)
All of these errors were fought against by the apostles and church leaders (bishops) up to 300 A.D. There were other errors that emerged in the 5th-7th century concerning Christ's nature, humanity, and deity. The church has consistently defended the apostolic doctrine of that Jesus was both completely eternal God as the Son of the Father, and completely human, having both a divine and human nature in a human body through the first three centuries long before the church became the Roman Catholic Church with the bishop of Rome (pope) being above all the other bishops. This was not the way it was from the start. The bishops were all of equal authority, presiding over regions around the Mediterranean. They would convene in what was termed 'councils' to settled matters of heresy and to affirm correct doctrine from the early centuries. Check it out for yourself
The early church fathers were refuting false teachings I mentioned in my post. Such false teachings were taken seriously and addressed strongly by these leaders. Today we more than likely agree to disagree, but at that time, the defense of the faith passed down from the apostles was very important and paramount to the spiritual health and well-being of the church. I wish more of this was done in today's churches by leaders.
You can also look up: "A list of Christological heresies" and find a chart or listing of the false teachings that arose in the early centuries. (Some of these I listed). This is our history, the history of the body of Christ. Just as we read of the history of the people of God in the Old Testament and the New Testament, we can benefit by learning about church history after the apostles up to this time. Of course, I agree that the OT and NT are inspired by God, but factual history is not outside of what we can use to learn more about the church. We use science to find out about our world and photography to see parts of our world that we have not visited and take these as factual. So, we can also find out facts about church history. None of these are forbidden in Scripture.
Jema, I am a pretty open-minded person and learn much from others, whether the other person is alive now or deceased. We are given to one another in Christ to help one another. That is the aim of my post to you. God's blessings to you today.
And these facts arising from those Church fathers you mentioned, clearly showed that what they learned from the apostles & those after them, were to be believed, adhered to & taught faithfully. And of course, there is much in the NT letters to warn believers not only of Judaistic intrusions into the Church, but of Gnostic inroads that would take away from the Deity of Christ as well as perverting the Word of God & giving into licentious living. Indeed, the Word of God is all we need, yet I find that verifiable historical writings (as pertaining to the Church) will always be of great benefit to us so that we can see how that Word was communicated, believed on, or else departed from. And the evidence we see of the 'Church-at-large' today, gives us no joy or encouragement that all is well with her; the divide between Christ's sheep & the goats are increasingly evident to us now & will continue to broaden, making even the true Church & its Savior the world's laughing stock & bringing great shame to blessed Name of Jesus.
There is much to learn of our history as a church built upon the rock of Christ. It has never been a static body without growth nor change as the centuries played out. Our church body today is much influenced by culture around us just as the church was throughout the centuries. There is much good and also much bad in the workings of the church throughout the ages. Today we see much false teachings as the leaders of the early church did. They openly refuted these heresies, especially those concerning the Godhead and the deity and humanity of Jesus. I am thankful that they did. Jesus promised to build HIS church and that it will endure through much trial and tribulation, as it has to this day.
In my last reply to you I said this doctrine was placed equal in value with, there is only salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, and without this doctrine one cannot be saved, I ask you if I was wrong, please tell me. Your comments to Chris seem to affirm this is your belief. Sorry you did not tell me. I know history as well. I forgive you of your judgement of me.
God bless,
RLW
Where did I judge you personally? I re-read my post and I nothing I said indicates that I judged you. And in my last post to you I said that such judgment is God's realm, not mine. So, let's be at peace today.
I have given you what I believe concerning God from Scripture. Many on here have given long lists of Scripture verses that illustrate that God is Triune. I will not do so here. But one can find such verses easily if they do a search: verses that illustrate the Trinity. As to your question about in order for one to be a Christian they must believe in Jesus as Savior and also in the Trinity, I choose not to answer because I think this is God's realm to determine who is truly saved. We are all in process of learning more and more of Who God is, which Jesus said that eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom the Father had sent. Eternal life is only received from God and Jesus said to those who believe in Him He will give them eternal life.
I do not know how God will judge those who do not believe in the Trinity, or that Jesus is not God, or who worship Jesus, but say that He is not God (which would be idolatry if true). But I am confident that those who believe in Jesus as Savior and believe that the Godhead is Triune are definitely saved because they worship the true God revealed in the Bible.
I hope this answer satisfies you and I hope it does not offend you. Either God has revealed that He is Triune (1 X 1 X 1 = 1) or singularly One person and being (1-=1). We will find out on judgement day. So I will leave it at that for today.
Thank you, and you did not offend me as I hope I have not offended you. You said the one thing that is what is most important in this conversation. What God do we worship, this is what we are accountable for. Do we worship a triune God that is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons who are God? Or do we worship "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" the "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Are they the same God?
In love, what God we worship is the truth we must all in our hearts find. As you said will leave it be.
God bless,
RLW
If I can be so bold as to suggest that you are attempting to understand the Godhead using Human Logic. And that is impossible. Our finite peanut minds cannot fully comprehend an Infinite God that has existed from everlasting to everlasting and created this World from nothing, by speaking it into existence.
God reveals to us in His Word that there is only ONE GOD, and there are THREE PERSONS in the GODHEAD, all of whom are Eternal God Himself. We cannot sort this out or "explain" God. We trust this by faith.
Furthermore, the Bible is clear that The Lord Jesus Christ is Eternal God Himself and that He humbled Himself, took on a Human nature, and then took upon Himself EVERY sin that ALL of His Elect have or will ever commit, and then endured the Wrath of God Himself, required by the Law of God, the penalty for their sins. Again, we cannot sort all this out from a mechanical perspective. But we know it is so because God Himself declares it to be so in His Word, the Bible. And this is what every True Believer trusts by faith, and even that faith itself is a Gift of God, and is part and parcel of Salvation itself.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it can be approached and understood like any book written by a human author. God wrote the Bible so that we must search it out, comparing scripture with scripture, applying the principles that God lays out for us in the Bible itself. And even then, it is God Himself that must open or understanding and lead us into truth as we do this.
So here is the crucial point, Ronald, if we are trusting in a Gospel where Christ is not Eternal God Himself, then we are trusting in a Gospel that has no Savior. Because if Christ were not Eternal God, He could not have paid for the sins of those He chose to save. And every sin, every violation of the Law of God, must and will be fully paid for, either by Christ or by ourselves.
Thank you, God, who cannot be tempted of evil, James 1:13 or lie, Titus 1:2. God could not fulfill the law, flesh had to fulfill it because the curse of sin was on flesh. How could you fulfill a law if you were not capable of breaking it? We are told Jesus the Son of God was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15. He was made flesh for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus had a will of his own but was obedient to the Father, Luke 22:42. Jesus did the works of the Father, John 5:36. Jesus was sent by the Father, John 4:34 John 7:16. Jesus did all the miracles by the Spirit of God that was given to Him without measure, Matt. 12:28 John 3:34, when He was anointed at the Jordan, Mark 1:10 Luke 4:18.
I hope this is correct forgive me if I am wrong. The Father is God but is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father and is not the Son. One God is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons.
If I may ask. If they are three persons, who is the Father of Jesus the Son of God? Matt. 1:18 Luke 1:35. Jesus many times said He has a God and a Father, Matt. 7:21 Matt. 12:50 John 20:17 2 Cor. 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 1 Peter 1:3. Jesus came in His Father's name, John 5:43.
My understanding, this is not a mystery that cannot be understood. God is a Spirit, John 4:24 It is His Spirit that dwelleth in us, 1 Cor. 3:16 1 Corinthians 2:10-12. God is Spirit, God is Holy. It is the Spirit of God that is the Holy Spirit.
Paul never used the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Jesus was begotten by His Father, Heb. 1:5. Jesus said His Father was greater than He John 14:28. Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
God bless,
RLW
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Isaiah 9:6 his name shall be called does not make him what the name is many Hebrew names have God in them. Jesus says He came in His Father's name.
John 1:1-4 What is the beginning that John is referencing here? Is this the beginning/creation or is this John's prologue of his gospel, the beginning of Jesus's ministry, as in Luke 1:2 or 1 John 1:1? The word of God was in Jesus for everything Jesus said was not His words but the Father's words who sent Him, John 4:16 John 12:49 John 14:24.
Jesus was the Tabernacle of God; God was manifested in Jesus, and this is the light that shined. The light that shined was eternal life 1 John 1:2. This life was given to the Son from the Father John 5:26 and we can have this gift through Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 6:23. Jesus proclaimed the Father, the Father was the Word which was proclaimed to the world, and the Word was God. In Revelation 19:13, Jesus's name is the Word of God.
John 10:30 John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: As God and Jesus are one through Jesus we also can be one in unity and purpose.
John 14:9 The Father was in Jesus by God's Spirit everything Jesus did and said was from the Father. This is what Jesus is telling them in verse 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
I understand we differ, and this doctrine is deeply rooted, I do not want to offend anyone. I have studied the creation of it, and it was as much or more political than Scriptural, especially considering the number of lives that were taken because of it.
God bless,
RLW
We don't get our understanding of the Bible from history or the writings and ideas of men.
We get our understanding of the Bible from the Bible itself. The Bible alone and its entirety is the Word of God and must be our only Authority.
When we recognize that God Himself is the author of the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation, we know that we can only come to Truth by comparing scripture with scripture, using the principles that God has laid down in the Bible (and which I have tried to articulate in previous comments).
And then also recognizing that God himself must open our understanding of His Word by giving us ears to hear, as it might be His good pleasure so to do.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I agree wholeheartedly, but if we look at it this is where this doctrine came from, the writings and ideas of men. The Old and the New Testaments are the inspired word of God. You can find Scriptures that may fit this doctrine, but that is if we have a preconceived knowledge of it before we read it.
I agree with you, Scripture interprets Scripture, and God gives us understanding through His Spirit. We also need to be aware if we have preconceived thoughts of any Scripture these thoughts can blind our eyes and ears to the truth from the Holy Spirit.
Nowhere in the entire Bible is it taught or even discussed. You would think how this doctrine has been placed as a foundation of Christianity and even as many say salvation is dependent on belief in it, but nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned. Scripture is clear about our salvation and there is not a jot or tittle including this doctrine that was written almost 400 years later.
Thank you, David, for your caring replies and discussion of this, I guess we can leave it with that.
God bless,
RLW
I do not agree that the Bible teaches what you are suggesting regarding the Nature of the Godhead and the deity of the LORD Jesus Christ. The verses that I quoted speak for themselves very clearly. Every verse that you quote is absolutely true, but must be interpreted in the light of every verse in the Bible that relates. And when it comes to the Nature of God Himself we will never come to a complete understanding in our finite minds.
Most seriously though, and I am very certain of this, if we are following a gospel where Christ is not Eternal God Himself, then we have no Savior and we are still in our sins. But as long as we have the breath of life there is hope that God might open our spiritual eyes and lead us into Truth.
I have no more to say on the matter and so will leave it there.
Thank you for this discussion and may the LORD Richly Bless You.