Good afternoon all! I began thinking of this verse in my commute back to home today:
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV
Jesus resurrected from the tomb in the same body he completed the finished work in. Mary was not to touch and His message was that he would ascend to the Father his God and the brethren's God.
A born again Christian also resurrects from the grave in the body they died in. Until, we like Jesus ascend to the Father we must remain separate from sin. Jesus did exactly this as an example for us.
The "touch me not" comment, was actually more along the lines of " don't detain me, or don't cling to me and hold me up, one of the many "translation" dilemmas we encounter.
Hi, Yes, I understand translation differences. Cling vs touch are similar, however I believe he could ascend at will and was not subject to time restrictions as he walked by power from the grave.
Just something to consider or as you say so well meditate, thank you, brother.
John 20:17, just think sunrise on the morning of the Feast of First Fruits, Leviticus 23:9-14, a shadow of what was being fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead. The priests were waving the sheaf of grain left and right before the altar, and the women were arriving at the Lord's tomb around the same time. They could not eat or partake of the first harvest until it was waved and accepted by God, Jesus had to present Himself to God, He is the First Fruits of those of the dead, the first harvest.
Is this why Mary could not touch Him? We see later after He presented Himself and was accepted by God, after He returned then they could touch Him, Matthew 28:9. He was raised in His glorified body the same as we will be raised in our glorified body, 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54. Eternal life is the gift and hope we have through Jesus Christ our Lord in Jesus.
In John 20:17, the word translated "touch" is a Greek word which means "to cling to, to lay hold of.
She wanted to worship him and never loose him again.
But there was still work to be done in cleansing our temple by presenting himself in our behalf.
Then in the same verse Jesus says why he told Mary not to touch him.
"FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER.
I believe Jesus was in his role as the High priest as this point.
He was to present himself as the sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:25-26. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 10:12-22. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Thank you, that may very well be what Jesus did and the reason Mary could not touch Him. It goes along with what we are told what Jesus did in Hebrews, whether it was when He first ascended or 40 days later when He ascended on a cloud. It may be one of those things we will not know for sure.
My thoughts were on the feasts Jesus fulfilled, the Passover, the Sacrificial Lamb, the feast of Unleavened Bread, His perfect life with no sin/leaven, and the Feast of First Fruits, the first fruits/firstborn of the dead, and 50 days later the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost with the giving of the Spirit.
Amen, Carleton. We have a wonderful bodily, immortal, uncorruptible eternal life with the Lord when He comes to resurrect our bodies from the grave to be united with our souls and spirits to be one completed human person once again, but without sin and any of its effects, entrapments, temptations, and judgments. We will be perfectly whole and glorified in the resurrection. We will have bodies like Jesus has in His resurrected and glorified body. We will be like Him in His perfect humanity. We will be glorified with a body, soul and spirit that is much better than the way our being was in this earthly life. We will be like Adam and Eve before the fall, but even more so, because we will never be able to sin and also we will have exceptional abilities that Adam and Eve did not have but Jesus, in His resurrected body, soul and spirit possesses. I am so excited for this to come to us, his people!
Yes ! We are not immortal ! We die , death is death , the sessation of life ! The end . We put on immortality when we are ressurected at the last day and found to be acceptable to God through Christ . In the meantime we sleep in the grave , knowing nothing . Immortality is the gift from God for having faith in His Son and in the ressurection to eternal life , we have to be ressurected to eternal life ! This happens when Christ returns to earth to sort the wheat from the chaff .
The Bible is very clear that when Christ applies His Salvation to one of His Elect and they become "saved", they become Born Again, they are given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment. This occurs in their Soul, which then can NEVER DIE. But their Body has not yet become "saved" and will die.
So when the True Believer dies, their Body goes into the grave and corrupts; and must wait the Last Day to be Resurrected a Spiritual Body. But in their Soul, they go immediately to be with Christ in Heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at HOME in the body, we are ABSENT from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jude 1:14,15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
The spirit is what goes to be with God, the soul goes to the grave.
Heb 4:12 Tells us "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the ((dividing)) asunder ((of soul and spirit)), and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".
The word (dividing) is #3311; it means a separation, to part, to disunite, differ, difference between.
This clearly tells us the soul and spirit will be separated, disunited, there is difference between them.
The spirit goes to be with God who gave it (Eccle 12:7) ( 2 Cor 5:8) This spirit is what Christ brings back with Him in ( 1 Thess 4:14)
The soul goes to the grave ( Ps 44:25) ( Ps 49:15) ( Ps 89:48) and in ( Acts 2:27) The word (hell) in this verse is #86; it means the place or state of departed souls.
The soul will rise from the grave at the return of Christ to meet the Lord in the air ( Jn 5:28-29) ( 1 Thess 4:13-17) and be reunited with the spirit that returns with Christ.
This is not my opinion David but it is the truth from Scripture.
If this is not Biblically correct then please show where it is not correct. If it is correct then please accept it as it is the Truth.
We should all see truth when presented with truth, IF we are being led by the Holy Spirit, Right?
I do not mean to offend anyone, but we are very quickly running out of time.
The Acts 2 passage (and also in Acts 13) are teaching us something about the Nature of Salvation in Paul's and Peter's preaching. In doing so they are referencing Psalm 16 and providing a commentary on this Psalm and it is very clear that The Holy One spoken of in these verses is Christ Himself, not David the man.
Christ endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, in full payment for the sins of His Elect and then rose from that death. It is Christ's soul, not David's soul that is in view.
I have always understood the Soul to be the Spirit essence of an individual, and therefore synonymous. So mankind has a physical BODY and a Spirit essence, his SOUL. But the Hebrews 4:12 verse is interesting. I have some thoughts about that verse but not prepared to share yet.
But I'm puzzled by your differentiating between the Soul and the Spirit of man. So are you saying that mankind has a Body, a Soul, and a Spirit? Perhaps you could elaborate on that idea a bit. Are you aware of any other verses that teach that three-way differentiation?
And how do you understand what it means to be Born Again? Does that occur in the Spirit or the Soul?
And what is the Spiritual Body in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44? There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a NATURAL BODY; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
( Ps 16:10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in (hell); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The word (hell) is #7585; it means hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat) including its accessories and inmates, ((grave)), hell, pit.
( Luke 23:46) "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost".
The word (commend) is #3908; it means to place alongside, i.e. present, to deposit (as a trust or for protection) set before.
Father was in heaven when Jesus spoke these Words so the spirit goes to heaven at death.
Jesus' soul was not left in hell so it went to hell. The soul goes to the ((grave)).
Jesus' commended His spirit into the hands of God. The Spirit goes to God.
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The "Holy One" is Christ Himself, not David the man.
So Christ, Eternal God Himself, took upon Himself the sins of those whom He "saves", He Died in His entire being and experienced the Wrath of God as Full Payment for their sins, and DID go into the grave (or hades). But His Soul was not left there. Because He Rose from Death since that the full payment for the sins of His Elect had been COMPLETED.
So when Christ applies Salvation to someone whom He "saves"; i.e. they become Born Again, He gives them a New Resurrected Soul (or Spirit) which in itself, "cannot sin" 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So when the True Believer dies physically, their "unsaved Body" goes into the Grave and corrupts to await the Resurrection of the Last Day when their Salvation will be COMPLETED and they will receive their Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Cor 15). But their Soul, i.e. their Spirit Essence, goes immediately to be with Christ in Heaven.
I understand you want to distinguish between the Soul and the Spirit of Mankind. But despite the two verses in Hebrews and 1 Thessalonians, I see the words Soul and Spirit as being synonymous when speaking of the Spirit Essence of Man.
Regarding the Luke 23:46 passage, that is absolutely true. Christ's Spirit went to be with the Father in Heaven, and not into the Grave with His Body which DID NOT corrupt. Why?
And now I'm going to shock you by suggesting that Christ actually made full payment for the sins of HIS Elect even before the Foundation of the World ( Rev 13:8 & Heb 4:3). And the Cross was a actually a DEMONSTRATION of that payment that had already been made. This is why Christ was able to say "IT IS FNISHED", even before He died physically on the Cross and rose again from the grave three days later.
Hi David0921. Apologies for intruding into your conversation with Jimbob, but wanted to also refer you to 1 Thessalonians 5:23, as you spend time in Hebrews 4:12. There seems to be a clear distinction made in describing tripartite man, especially noting the contiguous nature of soul and spirit.
No apologies necessary. Thanks to you and Jimbob for the 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 12:4 verses.
One thing I know for a certainty is that God did not choose words or phrases idly as He has wrote the Bible. We must compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible if we hope to come to truth. We must always be willing to examine any understanding we may have in the light of any verse or passage in the Bible that deals with the question at hand.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it is always easy to come to truth. It is often very difficult. And if we begin to isolate verses and passages from the rest of the Bible or approach a question based on the wisdom of men (let God be True, but every man a liar, Rom 3:4) we can very quickly and easily be led down a wrong path.
The Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must always be mindful that it is God Himself who must open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we seek truth from His Holy Word, the Bible. And that He does this on His own timetable and for His own purposes.
I would need to further study the relationship between Soul and Spirit as God uses these terms throughout the Bible before arriving at a distinction between the two.
At this point, I don't see anything in these two verses that would change my understanding of 1) the Spiritual condition of Mankind apart from God's mercy in Salvation, nor 2) what happens to a True Believer when they become Born Again, nor 3) what happens to a True Believer when their Body dies Physically, nor 4) what happens to a True Believer at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
I have stated what I believe God has declared regarding these teachings in many of my comments, along with some of the scriptural references dealing with these questions. All of which are ultimately speaking to aspects of Salvation itself and how God deals with those whom He saves.
Indeed David0921, this would be a prolonged study as 'soul' isn't always clearly defined from the Hebrew, 'nephesh' (which Ronald, in his detailed comment, gave 'soul's' various interpretations). If one is to assume an understanding based on how the verse is written (e.g. Genesis 2:7, as a 'living being/person'; and then Genesis 35:18, as the transition of an immaterial part of a person), then how one receives the word in the verse, will form how that Truth is believed & accepted.
As well, can the words 'soul' and 'spirit' be interchanged, at least in some instances? Or, can we assume that since both soul & spirit are immaterial, they must continue to exist, unlike the body which remains in the grave (without life & deteriorating) until the resurrection? And for those who understand it as 'the soul remaining with the body in the grave', what happens when there is no longer a body, or the body has been broken up/scattered/dissolved, where does the soul find its rest? Maybe moot questions that don't provide easy answers from either the Word or human knowledge of such things, though no doubt you have been or will be considering in your studies on this subject. GBU.
You said its Christ's soul not Davids soul in view. How does that change the fact that the word hell has the meaning of "the place or state of departed souls"? Its not me differentiating between the soul and spirit of man David I'm only showing what the Word of God tells us about the soul and spirit being divided or separated. You asked if I'm aware of any other verses? ( 1 Thess 5:23) would be one.
In ( 1 Thess 4:13) Who are "them which are asleep"?
In ( 1 Thess 4:14) Here we see "them also which sleep in Jesus" and also "will God bring with him" This verse tells us those which sleep in Jesus will come back with Him. This is the spirit.
In ( 1 Thess 4:16) We see "and the dead in Christ shall rise first". Where are these dead in Christ rising from David?
We see those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him, this would be the spirit.
And we see the dead in Christ shall rise first, this would be the soul rising from the grave. ( Jn 5:28-29) v28 "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice". v29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".
You asked if being Born again occurred in the spirit or the soul? That would have to be both because the spirit returns with Christ and the soul rises from the grave to be reunited with the spirit.
I'm not quite sure about your 1 Cor ch15 question.
You said that Jesus endured the wrath of God? The wrath of God is violent passion, or [justifiable] abhorrence, by implying punishment, anger, indignation, vengeance.
Jesus laid down His life, God wasn't angry with Him, God did not punish Jesus to bring eternal life to all who Believe in Him, men did that. Jesus suffered for the sins of the world but it was not vengeance from God. Thats how I see this.
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
Jema thank you for your comment. I honestly don't see how any Christian could not see this is the truth by these verses and the meaning of the word dividing. Jema, I recently found a site that shows truly amazing facts about the King James Bible being the Inspired, pure, preserved Word of God. It shows many, many things that only God could have done. This site clearly shows the KJB is God breathed, and infallible in so many different ways. If you, or anybody who reads this want to see this just google ("Truth is Christ") and watch some of his videos.
You will be amazed!
Anybody who seeks the Truth about God preserving His Word for this generation should check this site out. And anyone who trusts modern version bibles this site will show you why you should not put any trust in them, and why you should trust only the KJB as being the True Word of God.
I feel the same ! Why can I see this but others don't ! The Gospel is so simple and clear to me . I get frustrated and sometimes this leads me to say things in not the best way
:( . The more mystery people try to attach to it , the more suspicious I become . God doesn't contradict Himself . I shall try to look at those things you suggested but I only have internet on my phone , thanks , stay strong in the Truth .
I agree with you, and you are not alone. My understanding, the soul is a living being human or animal. We see this first in Genesis 1:20 the word creature is the Hebrew word nephesh meaning a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion. Genesis 2:7 By the breath of life Adam became a living soul, not given a soul.
The breath of life is our spirit given to us by God for when this breath leaves us, we are a dead soul, asleep. This breath, our spirit is what goes back to God, every man or woman regardless of faith, Ecclesiastes 12:7. In Scripture the dead are in the grave, not in heaven or hell and it is called sleep, Deuteronomy 31:16Job 17:13-16 and many more.
We have an earnest of the Spirit a downpayment, we are sealed, so, we are sealed until when? Until redemption, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22Ephesians 4:301 Corinthians 15:51-55, resurrection for those elects, chosen, and faithful we see in Rev 17:14 and Rev. 20:4-6. This is when we will be absent from this mortal body and be with the Lord.
The soul is who we are, and our conscience is the recorder of our life that is in the books that are open for the rest of the dead not in the first resurrection, Rev. 20:11-15, The ones written in the book of life will receive their glorified bodies and the rest will be cast into the lake of fire.
My understanding from my studies is the immortal soul and the meaning of death being a separation of the soul from the body does not come from scripture it comes from the Greek philosophers Socrates, 400 BC, Plato, and Aristotle. Later Augustine 354-430 AD adopted it, teaching death meant the destruction of the body, but the conscious soul would continue to live in either a blissful state with God or an agonizing state of separation from God.
Just a little, if the soul, that is who we are is immortal, that means death does not exist.
Exactly ! Honestly , I think this belief in the immortal soul , which in effect , makes God a liar when He says : the soul that sinneth it shall die ,and the wages of sin is death , it comes from our fear of death . The thought that we can cease to exist is so terrifying to so many people and the idea that we all live on in some way is such a comfort to us , especially when we loose a loved one , that many people can't bear the thought that life ends . This is where faith comes in , the faith of Abraham when he would have willingly offered Isaac , even though he had been promised many blessings through Isaac , Abraham believed in the ressurection . So must we , we can't be ressurected from life to life , we are ressurected from death to life . Why this is so unpalatable to so many is beyond me . God is able to do this ! And He will ! If we die and then go to heaven or hell , how are we dead ? We are not ,we are living in heaven or living in hell . When do we die ? We must die in order to be ressurected . May God bless us all and keep us all close to Him , through Christ His Son .
You have presented a reasonable view on this topic, and in many ways, I think it is plausible. However, I am wondering if our body and soul dies and we no longer exist, then who did Jesus preach to in Hades between His death and resurrection? Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in the transfiguration? If Jesus was actually there (since the disciples walked up the mountain with Him and the text say that Jesus' appearance was changed), then it seems that Moses and Elijah were actually there with Jesus as the disciples saw them and heard them speaking with Jesus.
These two occurrences make me think that our body dies and returns to dust, as that is what is said in Gen. 2:7 and 3:19, but it does not say anything about our soul ceasing to exist. Jesus said that we are to fear the One (God Almighty_ who can destroy both body and soul ( Matt. 10:28) which is the second death of unbelievers, but not believers. In this verse Jesus is speaking of two parts of our being, body is one, and the soul is the other, so it seems that the body can physically die, but not a regenerated soul.
Another Scripture that makes me think that the soul lives on in the presence of Jesus after death is in Hebrews 12:1 that there is a great cloud of witnesses in heaven who have gone before us in faith.
And lastly, Jesus said that believers have eternal life and will never die. ( John 11:26) Even though our body dies, our soul lives on because He is the resurrection and the life and those who believe in Him have life even though their body dies, our soul lives in Christ.
To me, the words of our Lord carry so much weight in regards to what we are to believe. He is the Truth and the Life and what He says will be will be.
But I truly understand your point of view, but it seems that Jesus differs from you and others here and in your church in regards to this topic.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, Jema. Just saying that what I know from Scripture differs from you
Hi Gigi , I'm dealing with some family stuff at the moment so can't answer your questions at the mo , can I ask you to please , send this your reply to me , to my e mail so I don't loose it in the machine :) it didn't go to my e mail first time . I will try to answer your questions but it may be in a few more days and I don't want to loose them , thanks . Please be assured , I'm not trying to convince anyone into my beliefs , each of us must be convinced in our own hearts by the Word of God . This site had certainly made me think carefully about one or two of my beliefs . Please , I want to answer this message but I need it in my e mail so I can find it easily again in a few days :) .
Please let me know if this went to your e-mail. I understand all of what you shared in this post. It is always good to converse with you. And, please, take all the time you need to take care of the things that present themselves into your life as being more important than responding to me. I agree that neither you nor I are trying to convince others here, but simply explaining our viewpoint and how we interpret the Scriptures on a specific topic.
May you be blessed today and in the situations that need to come to resolution in your life right now. My prayers are with you, Jema.
Hi Gigi , with regard to your questions to me , can you please tell me which scripture you believe refers to Jesus going to hell , I don't use the word hades as to me , it's a Greek mythology term . If you let me know which scripture I will try to answer your question , thankyou .
Hello again, Jema, I was out for a while today doing errands, and am between errands now, but I wanted to get back to you to give you this Scripture prophecy of the Old Testament king David in Ps. 16:10
"For Thou will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou suffer Thy Holy One to see decay."
This prophecy was about Jesus not David, as Peter declares in Acts 2:27 and through to vs. 36.
This prophecy of God through David says that the Holy One (Jesus-as Peter identifies the Holy One) was put in the grave bodily, but His soul went into hell. But, Praise God!, was not left in hell to suffer corruption or decay, but was raised up from the dead in body and soul, and was seen and touched by the disciples as Peter and John affirm to being eyewitnesses.
So, this verse in Ps. does say that souls went to hell when their body dies, and, unlike Jesus', our bodies decay. But since we were raised with Christ, our souls were raised up and are seated with Christ in heaven until the resurrection of our bodies on the last day.
This verse is so strong in revealing that souls live on after the body dies and reside either in the presence of God or in hell until the resurrection. I don't think that believer's souls go to hell as Jesus' did. He needed to have His soul in hell, alive and conscious so as to have completed the work of being condemned for our sins and to preach to those souls in hell whose bodies were long decayed into dust since the flood. What He preached I do not know, but His message is always to humans.
Jesus was also in hell in His soul in order to bring captives in His train as He rose from the dead ( Eph. 4:8) Also see Isaiah:61:1.
I also believe that Jesus bound Satan when His soul was in hell, gaining victory over Him. Since this binding, the gospel has been of great effect throughout the world-despite the presence of other evil beings that are not bound in hell as Satan is. But this is a study for another day.
I'm sorry Gigi , to me , you use far too much room for interpretation of these verses , I've read the 1st Peter verse you gave and it does not say that Jesus went to hell for the three days between his death and ressurection , if you wish to interpret it that way that's fine but it's not what I take from that verse . Your explanation of these verses is five times longer than the actual verses which is not a good sign to me . We shall have to agree to disagree on those things :) .
Since the Scriptures say that God would not LEAVE His Holy One in Hell (the abode of the dead), then I believe that the soul of Jesus went there like all human souls did before the resurrection, but His time there was short and after He had accomplished whatever He was to accomplish in this abode He resurrected. What He actually did in this place is inferred from other Scriptures. I do not wish to go into that here. Each person will infer what they wish. That is fine with me, also.
Hey, greetings.. sorry for the intrusion, but Jesus did not go to hell, or anywhere else while dead. This is a common misunderstanding of the biblical text in Peter. If you notice in Peter 3:18... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit.. the subject is the spirit, the next words are.. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared... notice Genesis 6:3.. And the Lord said, My Spirit..(Spirit) will not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be 120 years. So.. the Spirit of God was "preached" through Noah to the "disobedient" to call them to repentance for 120 years while preparing the ark. There is no abode of the dead until the judgement. The word prison is used to illustrate the state of being bound, similar to the use of .. "chains under darkness" in Jude. It is understood that hades is a term commonly used for
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
I also believe this quote by Peter in 1 Peter 3:19-20 doesn't say Christ went into Hell and preached to the Spirits in prison.
I believe verse 20 tells us WHEN he preached to those in prison.
(Verse 20)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, WHILE THE ARK WAS A PREPARING, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I believe the building of the ark, the material used and the ark itself presents a type in the work of Christ and Christ himself.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
I also believe Ephesians 4:8-9 has to be interpreted separate from 1 Peter.
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
I believe this passage of scripture is saying Jesus rose victorious from the grave. He paid the price for the sin of the world through His sacrificial death and Resurrection, and broke the power of sin, Satan, death, and hell.
I believe at this point those saved in the Old Testament leaves Abraham's bosom and goes to be with the Lord.
And so do we when we die.
Also, I believe Satan will be bound by a great Angel, not the Lord. That is yet future. Revelation 20:1-2.
The conditions in Revelation 20:3-5 hasn't happened yet.
Hope your weekend went well brother, if I may give my understanding of Ephesians 4:8-10. As He Ascended up on High, Acts 1:9 He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men.
He led captivity captive; we see this also in Judges 5:12 which has a meaning to take captive your captors. When Jesus rose from the grave, he took power over what held Him captive. Death and the grave were what held Him, but because He was without sin, they could not hold Him Acts 2:24. Since the garden, Satan had the power of death and the grave, and when Jesus rose from the grave, He took that power which are the keys, Revelation 1:18.
Gifts unto men, we see this in Psalms 68:18. These gifts are also for the rebellious. These gifts are for all people in Acts 1:8 Jesus gave the commission to the Apostles just before He ascended to heaven. The gifts are in Ephesians 4:11-12 He gave apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; all for the ministry for the perfecting of the saints. For the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ for all people. It is the gift to mankind for their salvation, no better gift can be given to man.
He that descended, when Jesus died, He was dead for three days. Jesus descended into death, and the grave, and because He had no sin, they had no power over Him. The first Adam through his disobedience brought sin and death to mankind, Jesus the second Adam through His obedience brought life.
If there were those whom Jesus brought with Him when He resurrected, I would think it would be David but in Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34 David is dead and buried and has not ascended to heaven. This earth is our home and our reward we do not go to heaven. We are heirs according to the promise, Galatians 3:26-29, Genesis 12:7, Genesis 13:5 it is forever, and Romans 4:13 the whole earth.
Rev. 5:10Psalms 37:9,22,34 This earth is where we will be not heaven.
I know you are at work, and you don't even have to reply. I know we can have civil conversations without insulting each other knowing we love the word of God. Just a thought on Revelation 5:3-4 the word here for man in these two verses, oudeis could mean no man, but a better meaning or translation is no one, nothing, it rules out anything but Christ the Lamb of God. The Greek word anthrpos is a word just for man one of the human race. I feel if it was saying a man was in heaven the word anthrpos would have been used, this does not show me a man was in heaven.
Ephesians 4:4-12 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
The phrase "lower parts of the earth" is a phrase used by God to identify with those who are under the Wrath of God for their sins. And that is where Christ finds every one whom He saves and for whom Christ has "descended into", i.e. endured the Wrath of God on their behalf. He did this in order to free those whom He saves from "captivity to sin and Satan" and to make them "captives" of Christ.
And this is what Salvation is all about for anyone whom God saves, both OT and NT Believers alike.
It is not talking about Christ going to a place called "hades" to bring OT Believers out of never-never land.
These verses must be read in the context of the entire chapter which is talking about the very Nature of Salvation itself.
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV
Jesus resurrected from the tomb in the same body he completed the finished work in. Mary was not to touch and His message was that he would ascend to the Father his God and the brethren's God.
A born again Christian also resurrects from the grave in the body they died in. Until, we like Jesus ascend to the Father we must remain separate from sin. Jesus did exactly this as an example for us.
Romans 7:24 1 Corinthians 15:44 1 Corinthians 15:40
Just something to consider or as you say so well meditate, thank you, brother.
John 20:17, just think sunrise on the morning of the Feast of First Fruits, Leviticus 23:9-14, a shadow of what was being fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead. The priests were waving the sheaf of grain left and right before the altar, and the women were arriving at the Lord's tomb around the same time. They could not eat or partake of the first harvest until it was waved and accepted by God, Jesus had to present Himself to God, He is the First Fruits of those of the dead, the first harvest.
Is this why Mary could not touch Him? We see later after He presented Himself and was accepted by God, after He returned then they could touch Him, Matthew 28:9. He was raised in His glorified body the same as we will be raised in our glorified body, 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54. Eternal life is the gift and hope we have through Jesus Christ our Lord in Jesus.
God bless and amen to the may I add.
RLW
Interesting viewpoint.
Here's another one that I find provocative.
In John 20:17, the word translated "touch" is a Greek word which means "to cling to, to lay hold of.
She wanted to worship him and never loose him again.
But there was still work to be done in cleansing our temple by presenting himself in our behalf.
Then in the same verse Jesus says why he told Mary not to touch him.
"FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER.
I believe Jesus was in his role as the High priest as this point.
He was to present himself as the sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:25-26. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 10:12-22. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
God bless.
Thank you, that may very well be what Jesus did and the reason Mary could not touch Him. It goes along with what we are told what Jesus did in Hebrews, whether it was when He first ascended or 40 days later when He ascended on a cloud. It may be one of those things we will not know for sure.
My thoughts were on the feasts Jesus fulfilled, the Passover, the Sacrificial Lamb, the feast of Unleavened Bread, His perfect life with no sin/leaven, and the Feast of First Fruits, the first fruits/firstborn of the dead, and 50 days later the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost with the giving of the Spirit.
Thanks again, God bless,
RLW
You are correct, we are now the body we were crucified and DIED in; and raised by the same Spirit Christ was raised with, we are the body of Christ.
1 Timothy 6:16 CHRIST ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light ...
1 Corinthians 15:53 ....this mortal must PUT ON IMMORTALITY ....
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it (his SEED) a body as it hath pleased him, and to every SEED (Christ's) own body.
God bless you.
The Bible is very clear that when Christ applies His Salvation to one of His Elect and they become "saved", they become Born Again, they are given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment. This occurs in their Soul, which then can NEVER DIE. But their Body has not yet become "saved" and will die.
So when the True Believer dies, their Body goes into the grave and corrupts; and must wait the Last Day to be Resurrected a Spiritual Body. But in their Soul, they go immediately to be with Christ in Heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at HOME in the body, we are ABSENT from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jude 1:14,15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
The soul and spirit are separated at death!
The spirit is what goes to be with God, the soul goes to the grave.
Heb 4:12 Tells us "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the ((dividing)) asunder ((of soul and spirit)), and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".
The word (dividing) is #3311; it means a separation, to part, to disunite, differ, difference between.
This clearly tells us the soul and spirit will be separated, disunited, there is difference between them.
The spirit goes to be with God who gave it (Eccle 12:7) ( 2 Cor 5:8) This spirit is what Christ brings back with Him in ( 1 Thess 4:14)
The soul goes to the grave ( Ps 44:25) ( Ps 49:15) ( Ps 89:48) and in ( Acts 2:27) The word (hell) in this verse is #86; it means the place or state of departed souls.
The soul will rise from the grave at the return of Christ to meet the Lord in the air ( Jn 5:28-29) ( 1 Thess 4:13-17) and be reunited with the spirit that returns with Christ.
This is not my opinion David but it is the truth from Scripture.
If this is not Biblically correct then please show where it is not correct. If it is correct then please accept it as it is the Truth.
We should all see truth when presented with truth, IF we are being led by the Holy Spirit, Right?
I do not mean to offend anyone, but we are very quickly running out of time.
The Truth matters!
Blessings to you and all who seek His Truth!
The Acts 2 passage (and also in Acts 13) are teaching us something about the Nature of Salvation in Paul's and Peter's preaching. In doing so they are referencing Psalm 16 and providing a commentary on this Psalm and it is very clear that The Holy One spoken of in these verses is Christ Himself, not David the man.
Christ endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, in full payment for the sins of His Elect and then rose from that death. It is Christ's soul, not David's soul that is in view.
I have always understood the Soul to be the Spirit essence of an individual, and therefore synonymous. So mankind has a physical BODY and a Spirit essence, his SOUL. But the Hebrews 4:12 verse is interesting. I have some thoughts about that verse but not prepared to share yet.
But I'm puzzled by your differentiating between the Soul and the Spirit of man. So are you saying that mankind has a Body, a Soul, and a Spirit? Perhaps you could elaborate on that idea a bit. Are you aware of any other verses that teach that three-way differentiation?
And how do you understand what it means to be Born Again? Does that occur in the Spirit or the Soul?
And what is the Spiritual Body in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44? There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a NATURAL BODY; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
( Ps 16:10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in (hell); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The word (hell) is #7585; it means hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat) including its accessories and inmates, ((grave)), hell, pit.
( Luke 23:46) "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost".
The word (commend) is #3908; it means to place alongside, i.e. present, to deposit (as a trust or for protection) set before.
Father was in heaven when Jesus spoke these Words so the spirit goes to heaven at death.
Jesus' soul was not left in hell so it went to hell. The soul goes to the ((grave)).
Jesus' commended His spirit into the hands of God. The Spirit goes to God.
Separation of soul and spirit in Jesus Christ.
Blessings to you David.
And to all who seek His Truth!
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The "Holy One" is Christ Himself, not David the man.
So Christ, Eternal God Himself, took upon Himself the sins of those whom He "saves", He Died in His entire being and experienced the Wrath of God as Full Payment for their sins, and DID go into the grave (or hades). But His Soul was not left there. Because He Rose from Death since that the full payment for the sins of His Elect had been COMPLETED.
So when Christ applies Salvation to someone whom He "saves"; i.e. they become Born Again, He gives them a New Resurrected Soul (or Spirit) which in itself, "cannot sin" 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So when the True Believer dies physically, their "unsaved Body" goes into the Grave and corrupts to await the Resurrection of the Last Day when their Salvation will be COMPLETED and they will receive their Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Cor 15). But their Soul, i.e. their Spirit Essence, goes immediately to be with Christ in Heaven.
I understand you want to distinguish between the Soul and the Spirit of Mankind. But despite the two verses in Hebrews and 1 Thessalonians, I see the words Soul and Spirit as being synonymous when speaking of the Spirit Essence of Man.
Regarding the Luke 23:46 passage, that is absolutely true. Christ's Spirit went to be with the Father in Heaven, and not into the Grave with His Body which DID NOT corrupt. Why?
And now I'm going to shock you by suggesting that Christ actually made full payment for the sins of HIS Elect even before the Foundation of the World ( Rev 13:8 & Heb 4:3). And the Cross was a actually a DEMONSTRATION of that payment that had already been made. This is why Christ was able to say "IT IS FNISHED", even before He died physically on the Cross and rose again from the grave three days later.
No apologies necessary. Thanks to you and Jimbob for the 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 12:4 verses.
One thing I know for a certainty is that God did not choose words or phrases idly as He has wrote the Bible. We must compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible if we hope to come to truth. We must always be willing to examine any understanding we may have in the light of any verse or passage in the Bible that deals with the question at hand.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it is always easy to come to truth. It is often very difficult. And if we begin to isolate verses and passages from the rest of the Bible or approach a question based on the wisdom of men (let God be True, but every man a liar, Rom 3:4) we can very quickly and easily be led down a wrong path.
The Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must always be mindful that it is God Himself who must open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we seek truth from His Holy Word, the Bible. And that He does this on His own timetable and for His own purposes.
I would need to further study the relationship between Soul and Spirit as God uses these terms throughout the Bible before arriving at a distinction between the two.
At this point, I don't see anything in these two verses that would change my understanding of 1) the Spiritual condition of Mankind apart from God's mercy in Salvation, nor 2) what happens to a True Believer when they become Born Again, nor 3) what happens to a True Believer when their Body dies Physically, nor 4) what happens to a True Believer at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
I have stated what I believe God has declared regarding these teachings in many of my comments, along with some of the scriptural references dealing with these questions. All of which are ultimately speaking to aspects of Salvation itself and how God deals with those whom He saves.
As well, can the words 'soul' and 'spirit' be interchanged, at least in some instances? Or, can we assume that since both soul & spirit are immaterial, they must continue to exist, unlike the body which remains in the grave (without life & deteriorating) until the resurrection? And for those who understand it as 'the soul remaining with the body in the grave', what happens when there is no longer a body, or the body has been broken up/scattered/dissolved, where does the soul find its rest? Maybe moot questions that don't provide easy answers from either the Word or human knowledge of such things, though no doubt you have been or will be considering in your studies on this subject. GBU.
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You said its Christ's soul not Davids soul in view. How does that change the fact that the word hell has the meaning of "the place or state of departed souls"? Its not me differentiating between the soul and spirit of man David I'm only showing what the Word of God tells us about the soul and spirit being divided or separated. You asked if I'm aware of any other verses? ( 1 Thess 5:23) would be one.
In ( 1 Thess 4:13) Who are "them which are asleep"?
In ( 1 Thess 4:14) Here we see "them also which sleep in Jesus" and also "will God bring with him" This verse tells us those which sleep in Jesus will come back with Him. This is the spirit.
In ( 1 Thess 4:16) We see "and the dead in Christ shall rise first". Where are these dead in Christ rising from David?
We see those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him, this would be the spirit.
And we see the dead in Christ shall rise first, this would be the soul rising from the grave. ( Jn 5:28-29) v28 "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice". v29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".
You asked if being Born again occurred in the spirit or the soul? That would have to be both because the spirit returns with Christ and the soul rises from the grave to be reunited with the spirit.
I'm not quite sure about your 1 Cor ch15 question.
You said that Jesus endured the wrath of God? The wrath of God is violent passion, or [justifiable] abhorrence, by implying punishment, anger, indignation, vengeance.
Jesus laid down His life, God wasn't angry with Him, God did not punish Jesus to bring eternal life to all who Believe in Him, men did that. Jesus suffered for the sins of the world but it was not vengeance from God. Thats how I see this.
Thank you for your response David.
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
Praise God for so great Salvation!
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You will be amazed!
Anybody who seeks the Truth about God preserving His Word for this generation should check this site out. And anyone who trusts modern version bibles this site will show you why you should not put any trust in them, and why you should trust only the KJB as being the True Word of God.
God Bless you Jema, and all who seek His Truth.
:( . The more mystery people try to attach to it , the more suspicious I become . God doesn't contradict Himself . I shall try to look at those things you suggested but I only have internet on my phone , thanks , stay strong in the Truth .
I agree with you, and you are not alone. My understanding, the soul is a living being human or animal. We see this first in Genesis 1:20 the word creature is the Hebrew word nephesh meaning a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion. Genesis 2:7 By the breath of life Adam became a living soul, not given a soul.
The breath of life is our spirit given to us by God for when this breath leaves us, we are a dead soul, asleep. This breath, our spirit is what goes back to God, every man or woman regardless of faith, Ecclesiastes 12:7. In Scripture the dead are in the grave, not in heaven or hell and it is called sleep, Deuteronomy 31:16 Job 17:13-16 and many more.
We have an earnest of the Spirit a downpayment, we are sealed, so, we are sealed until when? Until redemption, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Ephesians 4:30 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, resurrection for those elects, chosen, and faithful we see in Rev 17:14 and Rev. 20:4-6. This is when we will be absent from this mortal body and be with the Lord.
The soul is who we are, and our conscience is the recorder of our life that is in the books that are open for the rest of the dead not in the first resurrection, Rev. 20:11-15, The ones written in the book of life will receive their glorified bodies and the rest will be cast into the lake of fire.
My understanding from my studies is the immortal soul and the meaning of death being a separation of the soul from the body does not come from scripture it comes from the Greek philosophers Socrates, 400 BC, Plato, and Aristotle. Later Augustine 354-430 AD adopted it, teaching death meant the destruction of the body, but the conscious soul would continue to live in either a blissful state with God or an agonizing state of separation from God.
Just a little, if the soul, that is who we are is immortal, that means death does not exist.
God bless,
RLW
You have presented a reasonable view on this topic, and in many ways, I think it is plausible. However, I am wondering if our body and soul dies and we no longer exist, then who did Jesus preach to in Hades between His death and resurrection? Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in the transfiguration? If Jesus was actually there (since the disciples walked up the mountain with Him and the text say that Jesus' appearance was changed), then it seems that Moses and Elijah were actually there with Jesus as the disciples saw them and heard them speaking with Jesus.
These two occurrences make me think that our body dies and returns to dust, as that is what is said in Gen. 2:7 and 3:19, but it does not say anything about our soul ceasing to exist. Jesus said that we are to fear the One (God Almighty_ who can destroy both body and soul ( Matt. 10:28) which is the second death of unbelievers, but not believers. In this verse Jesus is speaking of two parts of our being, body is one, and the soul is the other, so it seems that the body can physically die, but not a regenerated soul.
Another Scripture that makes me think that the soul lives on in the presence of Jesus after death is in Hebrews 12:1 that there is a great cloud of witnesses in heaven who have gone before us in faith.
And lastly, Jesus said that believers have eternal life and will never die. ( John 11:26) Even though our body dies, our soul lives on because He is the resurrection and the life and those who believe in Him have life even though their body dies, our soul lives in Christ.
To me, the words of our Lord carry so much weight in regards to what we are to believe. He is the Truth and the Life and what He says will be will be.
But I truly understand your point of view, but it seems that Jesus differs from you and others here and in your church in regards to this topic.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, Jema. Just saying that what I know from Scripture differs from you
Please let me know if this went to your e-mail. I understand all of what you shared in this post. It is always good to converse with you. And, please, take all the time you need to take care of the things that present themselves into your life as being more important than responding to me. I agree that neither you nor I are trying to convince others here, but simply explaining our viewpoint and how we interpret the Scriptures on a specific topic.
May you be blessed today and in the situations that need to come to resolution in your life right now. My prayers are with you, Jema.
"For Thou will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou suffer Thy Holy One to see decay."
This prophecy was about Jesus not David, as Peter declares in Acts 2:27 and through to vs. 36.
This prophecy of God through David says that the Holy One (Jesus-as Peter identifies the Holy One) was put in the grave bodily, but His soul went into hell. But, Praise God!, was not left in hell to suffer corruption or decay, but was raised up from the dead in body and soul, and was seen and touched by the disciples as Peter and John affirm to being eyewitnesses.
So, this verse in Ps. does say that souls went to hell when their body dies, and, unlike Jesus', our bodies decay. But since we were raised with Christ, our souls were raised up and are seated with Christ in heaven until the resurrection of our bodies on the last day.
This verse is so strong in revealing that souls live on after the body dies and reside either in the presence of God or in hell until the resurrection. I don't think that believer's souls go to hell as Jesus' did. He needed to have His soul in hell, alive and conscious so as to have completed the work of being condemned for our sins and to preach to those souls in hell whose bodies were long decayed into dust since the flood. What He preached I do not know, but His message is always to humans.
Jesus was also in hell in His soul in order to bring captives in His train as He rose from the dead ( Eph. 4:8) Also see Isaiah:61:1.
I also believe that Jesus bound Satan when His soul was in hell, gaining victory over Him. Since this binding, the gospel has been of great effect throughout the world-despite the presence of other evil beings that are not bound in hell as Satan is. But this is a study for another day.
Jema, hope this helps.
I understand your point.
Since the Scriptures say that God would not LEAVE His Holy One in Hell (the abode of the dead), then I believe that the soul of Jesus went there like all human souls did before the resurrection, but His time there was short and after He had accomplished whatever He was to accomplish in this abode He resurrected. What He actually did in this place is inferred from other Scriptures. I do not wish to go into that here. Each person will infer what they wish. That is fine with me, also.
Have a good day Jema.
"the grave".
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
I also believe this quote by Peter in 1 Peter 3:19-20 doesn't say Christ went into Hell and preached to the Spirits in prison.
I believe verse 20 tells us WHEN he preached to those in prison.
(Verse 20)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, WHILE THE ARK WAS A PREPARING, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I believe the building of the ark, the material used and the ark itself presents a type in the work of Christ and Christ himself.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
I also believe Ephesians 4:8-9 has to be interpreted separate from 1 Peter.
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
I believe this passage of scripture is saying Jesus rose victorious from the grave. He paid the price for the sin of the world through His sacrificial death and Resurrection, and broke the power of sin, Satan, death, and hell.
I believe at this point those saved in the Old Testament leaves Abraham's bosom and goes to be with the Lord.
And so do we when we die.
Also, I believe Satan will be bound by a great Angel, not the Lord. That is yet future. Revelation 20:1-2.
The conditions in Revelation 20:3-5 hasn't happened yet.
Blessings.
Hope your weekend went well brother, if I may give my understanding of Ephesians 4:8-10. As He Ascended up on High, Acts 1:9 He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men.
He led captivity captive; we see this also in Judges 5:12 which has a meaning to take captive your captors. When Jesus rose from the grave, he took power over what held Him captive. Death and the grave were what held Him, but because He was without sin, they could not hold Him Acts 2:24. Since the garden, Satan had the power of death and the grave, and when Jesus rose from the grave, He took that power which are the keys, Revelation 1:18.
Gifts unto men, we see this in Psalms 68:18. These gifts are also for the rebellious. These gifts are for all people in Acts 1:8 Jesus gave the commission to the Apostles just before He ascended to heaven. The gifts are in Ephesians 4:11-12 He gave apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; all for the ministry for the perfecting of the saints. For the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ for all people. It is the gift to mankind for their salvation, no better gift can be given to man.
He that descended, when Jesus died, He was dead for three days. Jesus descended into death, and the grave, and because He had no sin, they had no power over Him. The first Adam through his disobedience brought sin and death to mankind, Jesus the second Adam through His obedience brought life.
If there were those whom Jesus brought with Him when He resurrected, I would think it would be David but in Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34 David is dead and buried and has not ascended to heaven. This earth is our home and our reward we do not go to heaven. We are heirs according to the promise, Galatians 3:26-29, Genesis 12:7, Genesis 13:5 it is forever, and Romans 4:13 the whole earth.
Rev. 5:10 Psalms 37:9,22,34 This earth is where we will be not heaven.
God bless you, brother,
RLW
I enjoyed the weekend, Hopefully you did as well.
Your reference to Acts is David's body/tent. David is with the Lord, it's his body that will be ressurerected.
And yes we will go to heaven.
We see that in Revelation 5:3 "And no man in heaven,
nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
God bless.
I know you are at work, and you don't even have to reply. I know we can have civil conversations without insulting each other knowing we love the word of God. Just a thought on Revelation 5:3-4 the word here for man in these two verses, oudeis could mean no man, but a better meaning or translation is no one, nothing, it rules out anything but Christ the Lamb of God. The Greek word anthrpos is a word just for man one of the human race. I feel if it was saying a man was in heaven the word anthrpos would have been used, this does not show me a man was in heaven.
Have a good week and God bless,
RLW
Ephesians 4:4-12 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
The phrase "lower parts of the earth" is a phrase used by God to identify with those who are under the Wrath of God for their sins. And that is where Christ finds every one whom He saves and for whom Christ has "descended into", i.e. endured the Wrath of God on their behalf. He did this in order to free those whom He saves from "captivity to sin and Satan" and to make them "captives" of Christ.
And this is what Salvation is all about for anyone whom God saves, both OT and NT Believers alike.
It is not talking about Christ going to a place called "hades" to bring OT Believers out of never-never land.
These verses must be read in the context of the entire chapter which is talking about the very Nature of Salvation itself.
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