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Thanks for your reply, However you might want to re read my post.
I never said Christ went to the lower parts of the earth to bring out Old Testament saints.
I said.
I believe this passage of scripture is saying Jesus rose victorious from the grave. He paid the price for the sin of the world through His sacrificial death and Resurrection, and broke the power of sin, Satan, death, and hell.
I believe at this point those saved in the Old Testament leaves Abraham's bosom and goes to be with the Lord.
And so do we when we die.
End quote.
They will get their bodies in the resurrection.
I'm sorry if you disagree with that, we will have to remain in disappointment.
My apologies if I misrepresented what you were saying. I thought you were using the Ephesians passage to justify an understanding of the fate of the OT Believer, which I believe is not taught in the Bible.
What I stated is my understanding regarding the Ephesians passage which I believe applies to ALL of those saved throughout time.
Hey, well.. fair enough brother. The "translation" aspect can be a bit.. um "challenging" at times. I mean, why in the world would they translate abyss as "bottomless pit" in Revelation?.. idk, we just gotta be diligent, grace from our Lord to you brother.
Hi Gigi , so sorry , I meant , can you please send your questions to my e mail :) . Never mind , I shall go back and try to find them in a day or two when I will have more time to give a proper answer .
Hi GiGi, hope you or Jema don't mind, Jema's and my understanding are similar. Like you said not trying to convince you, just things to look at and study.
Death is sleep, we still exist we just no longer have any consciousness or knowledge of time or happenings. I take it is 1 Peter 3:18-20 as your question on who Jesus preached to in Hades between His death and resurrection.
There are several interpretations of the meaning of these verses. some depend on the belief in the immortal soul and a place where souls go. First, this chapter, or these verses, do not say when Jesus did this. If Scripture does not support when Jesus did this can we say Jesus preached to these spirits between His death and resurrection?
Second, I do not know any Scriptures that people are called spirits. We have a spirit that gives us our breath, drive, energy, and communication with God through His Spirit, but when we die that stops and it goes back to God, Ecclesiastes 12:7. We are mortal beings and we are not called spirits, to me that would open the door to necromancy, that is just me. I can give my understanding of these verses if you want.
Jesus's transformation is a vision, Matt. 17:9, Jesus had not been crucified and resurrected, Jesus is the first fruit of those who slept the firstborn of death. Moses could not be resurrected before Jesus; Jesus was there but Moses and Elijah were like the things John was shown in Revelation. It was done to strengthen their faith for God said out of the cloud, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Heb. 12:1 I am sorry I do not see these witnesses in heaven, the word cloud could be a multitude or a great company who through diversity have obtained a good report through faith. All we know of God's former work should inspire us to run the race set before us. John 11:26 I understand eternally die because it is appointed unto men once to die, Heb. 9:27.
Jesus received back His full glory after He ascended to the Father. This is shown in His visit to Paul on the Damascus road. He was indescribable to Paul, only described as an extremely bright light and a voice that came out of the light.
Before incarnation, the divine Son of the Father appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Adam and Eve in the Garden. He did not appear in the fullness of the glory He possessed with the Father, in some of these appearances, even though He could have. He could show or hide some of all of HIs glory at will. And this is eternally true of Him.
Ronald, no need to be apologetic to me. I am not offended when someone responds to my posts, even if they disagree with me. What offends me is when someone is disrespectful in their response to me, when they assume things about me that they cannot know, and when they make judgments about my spiritual condition before God (which only God truly knows). You have never done any of these things to me. We always have healthy exchanges that come from hearts that love God and one another and from an attitude that gives the other the benefit of the doubt, thinking the best of one another, and being open minded enough to hear each other out and then consider what has been said and finally checking the Scriptures to see if what has been shared aligns with the Bible. I admit that there are some topics that believers will just not agree on. So, that is why I don't respond to argue to convince another, but to present my own viewpoint in a conversation that is open to all who wish to post on this forum.
I do hope that you have a great evening, that the Lord will bless you with wisdom and understanding as I desire for myself to receive, and that we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
These who did not believe in Jesus will not have the eternal life that Jesus says belong to believers.
Unbelievers will live forever just like believers but in the absence anything good and righteous and not live in God's presence although God will always know where they are and all that they will experience in hell.
Unbelievers will go to hell upon physical death and will enter the Lake of Fire at the final judgment. They will be alive in the Lake of Fire forever, as the Devil and His angels will also be. There these will experience eternally the wrath of God.
Believers will be in heaven and will not know anything of the experience of unbelievers in hell because we will not ever experience sorrow or pain in our life in eternity.
As to the transfiguration: ( Matt. 17:1-13 and Mk 9:2) it says that Peter, James and John accompanied Jesus up the mountain. Jesus did not appear to them. He was actually there and allowed His appearance to change to reveal His divine glory.
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus. The Father actually did speak out of the cloud, the disciples actually heard the Father speak. Vs. 09 of Mt. 17 does say that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of this vision until after He is risen. A vision does not always need to be something that is not physical or actually happening. Mark 9 states that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of "what they had seen" until He was risen from the dead. So this indicates that the disciples actually saw this with their eyes as a present reality. 1 Peter 1:16-18 refers to the transfiguration as something they were "eyewitnesses" to, they all saw the same thing at the same time and heard the same things at the same time.
Because Jesus is God, He did not become less than God in His incarnation. He still possessed glory as God incarnated, but this glory was less than what He shared with the Father for eternity past before the incarnation.
Thanks for your reply and I appreciate the time you took to think about my post.
I do not think we will come to agreement on this topic, so I will certainly consider what you have posed here.
As to Hebrews 12:1, this verse about the cloud of witnesses is part of what the author was speaking about the people who had faith in chapter 11. These people were all dead, but the author says that these are who compose this cloud of witnesses, from my understanding.
I have never read anywhere in Scripture that states that people cease to exist when they die, as Jema seems to say. If there is a verse, I would love to take it under consideration.
That it is unto each man to die, (physical death) and then comes judgment (then seems to indicate immediately following death.
Those who believe in Jesus will live, even though they die. John 11:25-26).
When one dies, their body (which is made of various natural elements) will decompose back into dust).
One's soul will be with Jesus with consciousness and interaction with God ( Rev. 6:9; 20:4)
We will not be spirits, but souls. Angels are spiritual beings, we are human beings God made to exist with a spirit, soul, and body.
The redemption of our bodies will occur at the Resurrection at Jesus' second coming to be united to our soul, and spirit to become fully redeemed.
The body we had in this life is the body that will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected in the same body he died in.
Our physical bodies, souls, and spirits will be reunited in this resurrection.
Our whole self, body, soul, and spirit will be glorified, transformed after our bodies are resurrected.
We will live forever with God. He will make His throne and dwelling among those who believed in the Son.
Those who did not believe in the Son will also be resurrected in the same bodies they lived in before death. Their body will be reunited with their souls and be immortal.
The souls under the altar in ( Rev 6:9) were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Their soul and their spirit would go to be with God, not just the spirit. These were slain for the Word of God.
In ( Rev 20:4) We see the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
These souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus so their soul and spirit would go to be with God, not just the spirit.
These verses are speaking of only the souls of those who were killed for the Word of God or for the witness of Jesus.
All other souls would be in the graves awaiting the resurrection.
Maybe this could be a missing piece to someones puzzle.
Blessings to you GiGi.
And all who seek his Truth.
And GiGi I would really like to recommend a web site to you that has some truly amazing information about the KJB being the infallible pure Word of God. And this man proves that to be a fact in many of his videos in many different ways. Some of it really is Amazing to see.
Google (Truth is Christ) on youtube and watch some of the videos please.
May I ask, How can one it be tormented if there is no awareness?
Revelation 14:9-11.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
And can they have no rest day and night if they are without awareness?
To torment means to torture: - pain toil torment toss vex.
How can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth as mentioned in many verses?
It is late here and to me, your post is deep in understanding, and I will do my best to reply, love you brother. I am an old man and if you could explain what you agree on with GiGi would help.
I agree this should not cause any division, we must always treat each other with care and love of growing in faith and knowledge of the word of God.
Everlasting punishment, I once understood the same as you on this when we read Matt. 18:8Matt. 25:46 and 2 Thess. 1:9 they seem to support it. And the verses that have "weeping or wailing and gnashing of teeth" that I cringe every time I read them. So, after the white throne judgment, all the wicked and unsaved people will be cast into the lake of fire the everlasting fire Rev. 20:15Rev. 21:8 and they have a conscious eternal, everlasting, forever and ever suffering.
On the other hand, we have Matt. 10:28 God can destroy both soul and body in hell/geenna. This carries us back to that other topic the immortal soul. In John 3:16 and Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wicked will perish, be destroyed, and be consumed. If the wicked are to be tortured in the lake of fire forever, they would also be given eternal life.
The fire is everlasting, it is permanent they will be destroyed and never come back they will not ever live again. We see what eternal fire can do in Jude 1:7 with Sodom and Gomorrha they were destroyed and have never returned.
Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
You may see this verse differently but "shall have their part in the lake" I understand as God's fair justice, like stripes in Luke 12:48. Just punishment for their works or should be said their wickedness. If the wages of sin is death I believe the second death is everlasting death, forever to be no more, not everlasting punishment.
Just my understanding thanks again for your replies.
In Jude the vengeance of eternal fire is not referring to the fire rained down on them in regard to this topic because that fire wasn't eternal and that wasn't their judgement of their second death but the fire that awaits them will be the fire mentioned in Jude.
The example set forth in Jude is them being ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Same as the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation.
Jude is putting his recipients in remembrance that these all is reserved to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Have you noticed this group is twice dead, plucked up by the roots already before Judgement?
You can be dead while you liveth.
1 Timothy 5:6. So the body doesn't have to die to be considered dead in the vocabulary here and it doesn't take eternal fire to keep you dead.
I'm talking about the description of that everlasting punishment (Which is future for the unbeliever)
Scripture describes it as torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth due to the unquenchable fire.
There would have to be teeth to gnash and if that's just a metaphor for a reaction to pain, if there is no body or no longer any existence it doesn't make since.
It could be no reaction to it. Torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth is a reaction to the unquenchable fire in these particular verses.
Yes Ronald, Ezekiel Ch 33 V 11 . I would so hate this to become a bone of contention on here , I can't pretend to believe the same things as many other people on here do , if I don't say what my beliefs are I feel as if I'm being deceitful . That's the only reason that I mention them .
I haven't fully followed this thread but I do know the belief of the participants because of previous pass discussions.
Getting down to the root of where this thread has turned based on this topic.
The question is "Are there a place of torment that unbelievers go and are they conscious while tormented?
"I believe so" though you and Jema has presented a good argument in this difficult topic.
I also struggled with this in the past, taking those various scriptures alone.
However, when we consider the incomprehensible holiness of God and the incomprehensible wickedness of flesh deprived of God's Spirit where there is no repentance, I believe that God's everlasting punishment is justified.
CAN WE TRULY KNOW THE STATE OF MAN'S FALLEN CONDITION IN THIS FALLEN WORLD?
Can a ungenerated heart repent?
Note: Man can change his action, but can he change his heart, apart from the spirit of God?
I believe we find the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I believe this verse speaks of the Holyspirit restraining evil in the world showing God's patience until there is a certain number reached and God is going to say. Go get them!
This is a view I presented a few months ago and was constantly attacked by some while I was on vacation in the dispensationalism discussion.
Anyway, you see the condition of man's heart after the rapture when man take up war against the Lord in Revelation 19:19.
Also, the unrepentant heart is revealed in Revelation 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Man's heart is in a state of everlasting rebellion against God-
Hey, greetings.. I just wanted to chime in, sorry for the intrusion. Jesus didn't go preach to anyone while dead. This is a rather "popular misunderstanding" of the biblical text. If you notice in 1 Peter 3:18 ... while speaking of Christ, says..For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:.. the subject is (The Spirit).. verse 19, By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; v 20Which sometime were disobedient,when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared.. Genesis 6:3, MY Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he is also flesh; yet his days shall be 120 yrs... so Noah "preached" to the disobedient people through the same "Spirit" for 120 years to repent while preparing the ark.
Those are some great questions and I also want to say amen to your entire post. I have been following this thread for a couple days now and it seems as though a majority of the things being said have nothing to do with brother Carlton's original post. There are a few responses from the beginning that were relevant to his post (yours being one), but it seems as though it went off topic pretty quickly. I wanted to chime in a few times but what you posted is perfect. I'm am interested in reading the response to your questions.
Good to hear from you. I am glad you found my post edifying. I realize that there are several differing views on this topic and I was just entering in what I believe to be true from my study of Scripture. Not trying to convince anyone, really, but hopefully give something for others to ponder and seek out in the Scriptures as I do with what I read from others that think differently than I do.
I think it is a good think for people to be open about their beliefs on here so that we can examine beliefs from differing angles and hold them up to the Word of God for verification. It is iron sharpening iron, good for helping us mature and remain sharp and useful for what God would have us say and do.
Blessing to you, Jesse. I have yet to finish reading all of your posts on your intro to the books of the new testament. I appreciate that you did this. I hope to read through them all.
Hi Gigi; came in from work & notice the 1st part was not posted or have not found it.
quoting you
I realize that there are several differing views on this topic and I was just entering in what I believe to be true from my study of Scripture,,,, hopefully give something for others to ponder and seek out in the Scriptures as I do with what I read from others that think differently than I do.
I think it is a good thing for people to be open about their beliefs on here so that we can examine beliefs from differing angles and hold them up to the Word of God for verification. end quote.
What you've stated here is an evident token of not being taught of God by His Spirit, but is of human origin, the studying of the letter, without the Spirit guidance.
For the Spirit of God would speak the same thing to all, He's not double-minded
What you believe & stated leads one into a 'form of godliness" without the power to be truly godly as you've stated in another comment & I quote:
"the struggle we wage between the sinful nature & the reborn spirit within us"
Correct me if I'm wrong, from what I gather from this statement is; you consider yourself to be born again, if so than you would have become a partaker of His divine Nature having "pass tense" escape the corruption that is in this world through lust, & according to your statement you're not, for you still struggling with the sinful nature. Therefore your not born again by the incorruptible Seed. John 5:18
You are free to think what you wish about me. But I also can flatly say that your evaluation is entirely wrong about me. Such judgments like yours do not shake me one bit. Actually, I am amazed that people on this forum spend time stating (and thinking) that they can see into a person's heart and know what God knows about a person's relationship with God and how the Spirit is or is not guiding someone.
Frankie, I have read many of your posts and there is much that I disagree with concerning your positions on many Biblical topics, but I know it is best to not do a back and forth with you. Your judgment of me has proved me right in that way.
You know Frankie, you play it fairly loose with many Scriptures and then at other times you cite Scriptures to back up your view and then other times you accuse people who learn from the Scriptures as not being taught by the Holy Spirit. Your inconsistency in this approach to Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit shows me that it is best to not converse back and forth with you at length. I do wish you well and that you grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ; that you continue to seek the Lord and learn from Scriptures as the Holy Spirit guides you. That is how those of us who did not live with Jesus during His earthly life nor during the time the apostles were preaching and teaching converts learn of the faith once and for all passed down to the saints.
I can tell from your posts that you embrace Quakerism which teaches that people can get new revelation from God from the Holy Spirit through quiet contemplation or passivity. I do not believe this to be sound doctrinal practice and will stick with my Bible and the knowledge the Spirit brings forth to me through studying His true Word. I do not trust the revelations of men who claim that the Holy Spirit is teaching them things outside of what is written in Scriptures.
But this forum is open to all and I am glad you are here with us.
I sense in my heart, that you felt in your heart, that within your studies of God's words, you believed, you are being led by the Spirit of God, this, the Spirit of God gave me a sight of, which by your own words were confirmed.
All must acknowledge, that God speaks the same meaning of the Scriptures to all, the Scriptures are in continuity from Genesis to Revelation " there's no different angles to the Truth" as you're implying in this statement
Friend, the influence that you are of can only come from the cup Babylon
If you ever come to the Truth, you will acknowledge that which I have spoken to you is from the love of God to your eternal soul, for no other purpose than your deliverance from her.
Concerning the Quaker's, their writing from 1646-1700 I own these beliefs, & have found by experience, through experiential knowledge of them to be true, according to Scripture, sound reasoning & the Witness within my own conscience, which has delivered me from my captivity of the sins that so easy beset me, when I walk according to your faith.
As of now, these truths that are meant for your peace are hidden from you.
Friend, all of this proceeds from the lack of being Taught of God by His Spirit, bringing all that would surrender unto Him into the unity of the Faith of the Son of God, that is wrought within us by His Spirit, that we may be one even as He & the Father are One. Members of His Body, for the Temple of God is Holy.
John 17:21-23
Yes; the Spirit knows us through & through & we can be sure no one can never fool God.
Gigi & all, please consider the Truth that's being reveal here according to Scriptures, sound reasoning & the Witness within your conscience that will bear witness to Truth.
For it one's faith is wrong, so will one's life & final destination be. Matt 17: 17-21 James 3:11
I believe that there many on this site as you, who are sincere & do desire to truly know & serve the Lord, but are as I once was "deceived " by the traditions & teaching of men, meaning by studying the Scripture by the arts of science, the letter by the letter. I truly believed that I was being lead by God in this effort, I was deceived & that by the Harlot Rev 17:4-6
Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, TODAY SHALT THOUGH BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.
The passage above is Christ applying Salvation to one of His Elect before our very eyes. Causing that thief on the cross. to become Born Again, to receive his RESURRECTED SOUL.
And no, Christ was not lying to him.
So that thief died and was buried and his body has returned to the dust. But that thief was indeed with Christ in Heaven, in Paradise at the moment of his physical death. And will be returning with Christ in his Soul Existence to receive his glorified Spiritual Body at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
What you are suggesting is a complete denial of what it means to become "saved", to become Born Again.
Yes! "the SOUL that sineth it shall die". And apart from God's mercy in Salvation (in Christ having endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, the full penalty for the sins of those whom He saves) that is indeed the fate of all Mankind, Eternal Death.
>The Bible is very clear that when Christ applies His Salvation to one of His Elect and they become "saved", they become Born Again, they are given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment.
I agree with the sleep until Jesus comes, because that's what the Bible says.
However, are these verses that say we'll not be saved now but later conflict with your view?
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
IN THE LAST TIME, not NOW.
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
THE END
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
DOES NOT SAY HE THAT ENDURE NOW, IS SAVED NOW. IT SAYS UNTO THE END, WHICH MEANS THE END, NOT NOW.
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."
PATIENCE. IF YOURE SAVED NOW WHY NEED PATIENCE. YE "MIGHT" RECEIVE.. ITS CONDITIONAL.
Above are 4 verses saying we're saved later, not now. Can you find 4 or more verses that say we're saved now and not later?
I don't see where the verses you referenced conflict in any way with what I said or the verses I quoted.
If God has "saved" us, i.e. we have become Born Again, we will ENDURE TO THE END. We will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the Law of God and we will more and more turn away from sin in our life; not in order that God will "save" us, but because we have a "want to" in our Soul to obey Him.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Then God will COMPLETE our Salvation at the Last Day when we receive our Resurrected Spiritual Bodies.
Here are some other verses for your consideration:
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
I know you study the word; but when we have preconceived beliefs carried in our carnal mind, we tend to read over words of TRUTH that disagree with our carnal mind; that's the way God made us, so when we come to TRUTH we know it WAS NOT of OURSELVES; but of GOD, HIS WORK, not the work of our hands.
You have said more than once that your going to died and lay in the grave until the resurrection, is this TRUE for BELIEVERS, or is this ONLY TRUE for unbelievers.
You said death is the cessation of life. Christ is IMMORTAL LIFE, raised by the Spirit of OUR Father, LIFE CANNOT DIE, the (OUR)
body is DEAD without LIFE (Christ), ALL flesh DIED on the CROSS, ONLY ONE BODY AROSE, the BODY of CHRIST: YOU (BELIEVERS).
By study of his word, HE is going TO CAUSE YOU to BELIEVE.
When we, by the Spirit of Christ, make comments on this forum, we should never cut and paste scriptures, but literally type God's words; those words become life unto you, they dislodge and replace the thoughts of our carnal mind.
If you want the many scriptures that says we DIED and were RESURRECTED with Christ and we can NEVER DIE ANYMORE, I will type them for you, I believe you know those scriptures from study; but those scripture have NOT YET become TRUTH to you.
Isaiah 26:19 .... TOGETHER with MY (Christ) dead body shall they ARISE .......
Thanks for your reply, However you might want to re read my post.
I never said Christ went to the lower parts of the earth to bring out Old Testament saints.
I said.
I believe this passage of scripture is saying Jesus rose victorious from the grave. He paid the price for the sin of the world through His sacrificial death and Resurrection, and broke the power of sin, Satan, death, and hell.
I believe at this point those saved in the Old Testament leaves Abraham's bosom and goes to be with the Lord.
And so do we when we die.
End quote.
They will get their bodies in the resurrection.
I'm sorry if you disagree with that, we will have to remain in disappointment.
Thanks in advance and God bless.
My apologies if I misrepresented what you were saying. I thought you were using the Ephesians passage to justify an understanding of the fate of the OT Believer, which I believe is not taught in the Bible.
What I stated is my understanding regarding the Ephesians passage which I believe applies to ALL of those saved throughout time.
Thanks I agree.
My post and replies may come a bit confusing at times, I'm always multitasking and often rush these posts from my phone.
Well, back to work for me.
God bless.
Amen
God bless,
RLW
Here is the Scripture citation;
1 Peter 3:18-19
I think it best for you to just pull up my post and see what questions I asked that you wish to respond to.
Death is sleep, we still exist we just no longer have any consciousness or knowledge of time or happenings. I take it is 1 Peter 3:18-20 as your question on who Jesus preached to in Hades between His death and resurrection.
There are several interpretations of the meaning of these verses. some depend on the belief in the immortal soul and a place where souls go. First, this chapter, or these verses, do not say when Jesus did this. If Scripture does not support when Jesus did this can we say Jesus preached to these spirits between His death and resurrection?
Second, I do not know any Scriptures that people are called spirits. We have a spirit that gives us our breath, drive, energy, and communication with God through His Spirit, but when we die that stops and it goes back to God, Ecclesiastes 12:7. We are mortal beings and we are not called spirits, to me that would open the door to necromancy, that is just me. I can give my understanding of these verses if you want.
Jesus's transformation is a vision, Matt. 17:9, Jesus had not been crucified and resurrected, Jesus is the first fruit of those who slept the firstborn of death. Moses could not be resurrected before Jesus; Jesus was there but Moses and Elijah were like the things John was shown in Revelation. It was done to strengthen their faith for God said out of the cloud, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Heb. 12:1 I am sorry I do not see these witnesses in heaven, the word cloud could be a multitude or a great company who through diversity have obtained a good report through faith. All we know of God's former work should inspire us to run the race set before us. John 11:26 I understand eternally die because it is appointed unto men once to die, Heb. 9:27.
Forgive me if I have overstepped, God bless,
RLW
Last part:
Jesus received back His full glory after He ascended to the Father. This is shown in His visit to Paul on the Damascus road. He was indescribable to Paul, only described as an extremely bright light and a voice that came out of the light.
Before incarnation, the divine Son of the Father appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Adam and Eve in the Garden. He did not appear in the fullness of the glory He possessed with the Father, in some of these appearances, even though He could have. He could show or hide some of all of HIs glory at will. And this is eternally true of Him.
Ronald, no need to be apologetic to me. I am not offended when someone responds to my posts, even if they disagree with me. What offends me is when someone is disrespectful in their response to me, when they assume things about me that they cannot know, and when they make judgments about my spiritual condition before God (which only God truly knows). You have never done any of these things to me. We always have healthy exchanges that come from hearts that love God and one another and from an attitude that gives the other the benefit of the doubt, thinking the best of one another, and being open minded enough to hear each other out and then consider what has been said and finally checking the Scriptures to see if what has been shared aligns with the Bible. I admit that there are some topics that believers will just not agree on. So, that is why I don't respond to argue to convince another, but to present my own viewpoint in a conversation that is open to all who wish to post on this forum.
I do hope that you have a great evening, that the Lord will bless you with wisdom and understanding as I desire for myself to receive, and that we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
These who did not believe in Jesus will not have the eternal life that Jesus says belong to believers.
Unbelievers will live forever just like believers but in the absence anything good and righteous and not live in God's presence although God will always know where they are and all that they will experience in hell.
Unbelievers will go to hell upon physical death and will enter the Lake of Fire at the final judgment. They will be alive in the Lake of Fire forever, as the Devil and His angels will also be. There these will experience eternally the wrath of God.
Believers will be in heaven and will not know anything of the experience of unbelievers in hell because we will not ever experience sorrow or pain in our life in eternity.
As to the transfiguration: ( Matt. 17:1-13 and Mk 9:2) it says that Peter, James and John accompanied Jesus up the mountain. Jesus did not appear to them. He was actually there and allowed His appearance to change to reveal His divine glory.
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus. The Father actually did speak out of the cloud, the disciples actually heard the Father speak. Vs. 09 of Mt. 17 does say that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of this vision until after He is risen. A vision does not always need to be something that is not physical or actually happening. Mark 9 states that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of "what they had seen" until He was risen from the dead. So this indicates that the disciples actually saw this with their eyes as a present reality. 1 Peter 1:16-18 refers to the transfiguration as something they were "eyewitnesses" to, they all saw the same thing at the same time and heard the same things at the same time.
Because Jesus is God, He did not become less than God in His incarnation. He still possessed glory as God incarnated, but this glory was less than what He shared with the Father for eternity past before the incarnation.
Thanks for your reply and I appreciate the time you took to think about my post.
I do not think we will come to agreement on this topic, so I will certainly consider what you have posed here.
As to Hebrews 12:1, this verse about the cloud of witnesses is part of what the author was speaking about the people who had faith in chapter 11. These people were all dead, but the author says that these are who compose this cloud of witnesses, from my understanding.
I have never read anywhere in Scripture that states that people cease to exist when they die, as Jema seems to say. If there is a verse, I would love to take it under consideration.
That it is unto each man to die, (physical death) and then comes judgment (then seems to indicate immediately following death.
Those who believe in Jesus will live, even though they die. John 11:25-26).
When one dies, their body (which is made of various natural elements) will decompose back into dust).
One's soul will be with Jesus with consciousness and interaction with God ( Rev. 6:9; 20:4)
We will not be spirits, but souls. Angels are spiritual beings, we are human beings God made to exist with a spirit, soul, and body.
The redemption of our bodies will occur at the Resurrection at Jesus' second coming to be united to our soul, and spirit to become fully redeemed.
The body we had in this life is the body that will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected in the same body he died in.
Our physical bodies, souls, and spirits will be reunited in this resurrection.
Our whole self, body, soul, and spirit will be glorified, transformed after our bodies are resurrected.
We will live forever with God. He will make His throne and dwelling among those who believed in the Son.
Those who did not believe in the Son will also be resurrected in the same bodies they lived in before death. Their body will be reunited with their souls and be immortal.
The souls under the altar in ( Rev 6:9) were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Their soul and their spirit would go to be with God, not just the spirit. These were slain for the Word of God.
In ( Rev 20:4) We see the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
These souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus so their soul and spirit would go to be with God, not just the spirit.
These verses are speaking of only the souls of those who were killed for the Word of God or for the witness of Jesus.
All other souls would be in the graves awaiting the resurrection.
Maybe this could be a missing piece to someones puzzle.
Blessings to you GiGi.
And all who seek his Truth.
And GiGi I would really like to recommend a web site to you that has some truly amazing information about the KJB being the infallible pure Word of God. And this man proves that to be a fact in many of his videos in many different ways. Some of it really is Amazing to see.
Google (Truth is Christ) on youtube and watch some of the videos please.
Thanks for your reply. I will consider your thoughts on this topic, Hope your day goes well and you know the blessing of God on your life.
May I ask, How can one it be tormented if there is no awareness?
Revelation 14:9-11.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
And can they have no rest day and night if they are without awareness?
To torment means to torture: - pain toil torment toss vex.
How can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth as mentioned in many verses?
I have to agree with Gigi.
God bless
It is late here and to me, your post is deep in understanding, and I will do my best to reply, love you brother. I am an old man and if you could explain what you agree on with GiGi would help.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2
This is a topic I don't believe should causes much division amongst Brothern, but it has been the hinge that holds some theology.
Everlasting punishment is hard to conceive in our finite mind, but Gods judgments are righteous.
Love you Brother ,
God bless.
I agree this should not cause any division, we must always treat each other with care and love of growing in faith and knowledge of the word of God.
Everlasting punishment, I once understood the same as you on this when we read Matt. 18:8 Matt. 25:46 and 2 Thess. 1:9 they seem to support it. And the verses that have "weeping or wailing and gnashing of teeth" that I cringe every time I read them. So, after the white throne judgment, all the wicked and unsaved people will be cast into the lake of fire the everlasting fire Rev. 20:15 Rev. 21:8 and they have a conscious eternal, everlasting, forever and ever suffering.
On the other hand, we have Matt. 10:28 God can destroy both soul and body in hell/geenna. This carries us back to that other topic the immortal soul. In John 3:16 and Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wicked will perish, be destroyed, and be consumed. If the wicked are to be tortured in the lake of fire forever, they would also be given eternal life.
The fire is everlasting, it is permanent they will be destroyed and never come back they will not ever live again. We see what eternal fire can do in Jude 1:7 with Sodom and Gomorrha they were destroyed and have never returned.
Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
You may see this verse differently but "shall have their part in the lake" I understand as God's fair justice, like stripes in Luke 12:48. Just punishment for their works or should be said their wickedness. If the wages of sin is death I believe the second death is everlasting death, forever to be no more, not everlasting punishment.
Just my understanding thanks again for your replies.
God bless,
RLW
In Jude the vengeance of eternal fire is not referring to the fire rained down on them in regard to this topic because that fire wasn't eternal and that wasn't their judgement of their second death but the fire that awaits them will be the fire mentioned in Jude.
The example set forth in Jude is them being ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Same as the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation.
Jude is putting his recipients in remembrance that these all is reserved to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Have you noticed this group is twice dead, plucked up by the roots already before Judgement?
You can be dead while you liveth.
1 Timothy 5:6. So the body doesn't have to die to be considered dead in the vocabulary here and it doesn't take eternal fire to keep you dead.
I'm talking about the description of that everlasting punishment (Which is future for the unbeliever)
Scripture describes it as torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth due to the unquenchable fire.
There would have to be teeth to gnash and if that's just a metaphor for a reaction to pain, if there is no body or no longer any existence it doesn't make since.
It could be no reaction to it. Torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth is a reaction to the unquenchable fire in these particular verses.
God bless.
Pt 1
I haven't fully followed this thread but I do know the belief of the participants because of previous pass discussions.
Getting down to the root of where this thread has turned based on this topic.
The question is "Are there a place of torment that unbelievers go and are they conscious while tormented?
"I believe so" though you and Jema has presented a good argument in this difficult topic.
I also struggled with this in the past, taking those various scriptures alone.
However, when we consider the incomprehensible holiness of God and the incomprehensible wickedness of flesh deprived of God's Spirit where there is no repentance, I believe that God's everlasting punishment is justified.
CAN WE TRULY KNOW THE STATE OF MAN'S FALLEN CONDITION IN THIS FALLEN WORLD?
Can a ungenerated heart repent?
Note: Man can change his action, but can he change his heart, apart from the spirit of God?
I believe we find the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I believe this verse speaks of the Holyspirit restraining evil in the world showing God's patience until there is a certain number reached and God is going to say. Go get them!
This is a view I presented a few months ago and was constantly attacked by some while I was on vacation in the dispensationalism discussion.
Anyway, you see the condition of man's heart after the rapture when man take up war against the Lord in Revelation 19:19.
Also, the unrepentant heart is revealed in Revelation 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Man's heart is in a state of everlasting rebellion against God-
Those are some great questions and I also want to say amen to your entire post. I have been following this thread for a couple days now and it seems as though a majority of the things being said have nothing to do with brother Carlton's original post. There are a few responses from the beginning that were relevant to his post (yours being one), but it seems as though it went off topic pretty quickly. I wanted to chime in a few times but what you posted is perfect. I'm am interested in reading the response to your questions.
God bless!!!
Good to hear from you. I am glad you found my post edifying. I realize that there are several differing views on this topic and I was just entering in what I believe to be true from my study of Scripture. Not trying to convince anyone, really, but hopefully give something for others to ponder and seek out in the Scriptures as I do with what I read from others that think differently than I do.
I think it is a good think for people to be open about their beliefs on here so that we can examine beliefs from differing angles and hold them up to the Word of God for verification. It is iron sharpening iron, good for helping us mature and remain sharp and useful for what God would have us say and do.
Blessing to you, Jesse. I have yet to finish reading all of your posts on your intro to the books of the new testament. I appreciate that you did this. I hope to read through them all.
Hi Gigi; came in from work & notice the 1st part was not posted or have not found it.
quoting you
I realize that there are several differing views on this topic and I was just entering in what I believe to be true from my study of Scripture,,,, hopefully give something for others to ponder and seek out in the Scriptures as I do with what I read from others that think differently than I do.
I think it is a good thing for people to be open about their beliefs on here so that we can examine beliefs from differing angles and hold them up to the Word of God for verification. end quote.
What you've stated here is an evident token of not being taught of God by His Spirit, but is of human origin, the studying of the letter, without the Spirit guidance.
For the Spirit of God would speak the same thing to all, He's not double-minded
What you believe & stated leads one into a 'form of godliness" without the power to be truly godly as you've stated in another comment & I quote:
"the struggle we wage between the sinful nature & the reborn spirit within us"
Correct me if I'm wrong, from what I gather from this statement is; you consider yourself to be born again, if so than you would have become a partaker of His divine Nature having "pass tense" escape the corruption that is in this world through lust, & according to your statement you're not, for you still struggling with the sinful nature. Therefore your not born again by the incorruptible Seed. John 5:18
You are free to think what you wish about me. But I also can flatly say that your evaluation is entirely wrong about me. Such judgments like yours do not shake me one bit. Actually, I am amazed that people on this forum spend time stating (and thinking) that they can see into a person's heart and know what God knows about a person's relationship with God and how the Spirit is or is not guiding someone.
Frankie, I have read many of your posts and there is much that I disagree with concerning your positions on many Biblical topics, but I know it is best to not do a back and forth with you. Your judgment of me has proved me right in that way.
You know Frankie, you play it fairly loose with many Scriptures and then at other times you cite Scriptures to back up your view and then other times you accuse people who learn from the Scriptures as not being taught by the Holy Spirit. Your inconsistency in this approach to Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit shows me that it is best to not converse back and forth with you at length. I do wish you well and that you grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ; that you continue to seek the Lord and learn from Scriptures as the Holy Spirit guides you. That is how those of us who did not live with Jesus during His earthly life nor during the time the apostles were preaching and teaching converts learn of the faith once and for all passed down to the saints.
I can tell from your posts that you embrace Quakerism which teaches that people can get new revelation from God from the Holy Spirit through quiet contemplation or passivity. I do not believe this to be sound doctrinal practice and will stick with my Bible and the knowledge the Spirit brings forth to me through studying His true Word. I do not trust the revelations of men who claim that the Holy Spirit is teaching them things outside of what is written in Scriptures.
But this forum is open to all and I am glad you are here with us.
I sense in my heart, that you felt in your heart, that within your studies of God's words, you believed, you are being led by the Spirit of God, this, the Spirit of God gave me a sight of, which by your own words were confirmed.
All must acknowledge, that God speaks the same meaning of the Scriptures to all, the Scriptures are in continuity from Genesis to Revelation " there's no different angles to the Truth" as you're implying in this statement
Friend, the influence that you are of can only come from the cup Babylon
If you ever come to the Truth, you will acknowledge that which I have spoken to you is from the love of God to your eternal soul, for no other purpose than your deliverance from her.
Concerning the Quaker's, their writing from 1646-1700 I own these beliefs, & have found by experience, through experiential knowledge of them to be true, according to Scripture, sound reasoning & the Witness within my own conscience, which has delivered me from my captivity of the sins that so easy beset me, when I walk according to your faith.
As of now, these truths that are meant for your peace are hidden from you.
in love & truth
Friend, all of this proceeds from the lack of being Taught of God by His Spirit, bringing all that would surrender unto Him into the unity of the Faith of the Son of God, that is wrought within us by His Spirit, that we may be one even as He & the Father are One. Members of His Body, for the Temple of God is Holy.
John 17:21-23
Yes; the Spirit knows us through & through & we can be sure no one can never fool God.
Gigi & all, please consider the Truth that's being reveal here according to Scriptures, sound reasoning & the Witness within your conscience that will bear witness to Truth.
For it one's faith is wrong, so will one's life & final destination be. Matt 17: 17-21 James 3:11
I believe that there many on this site as you, who are sincere & do desire to truly know & serve the Lord, but are as I once was "deceived " by the traditions & teaching of men, meaning by studying the Scripture by the arts of science, the letter by the letter. I truly believed that I was being lead by God in this effort, I was deceived & that by the Harlot Rev 17:4-6
Again; all, please consider these truths
In love & truth
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[Comment Removed]
The passage above is Christ applying Salvation to one of His Elect before our very eyes. Causing that thief on the cross. to become Born Again, to receive his RESURRECTED SOUL.
And no, Christ was not lying to him.
So that thief died and was buried and his body has returned to the dust. But that thief was indeed with Christ in Heaven, in Paradise at the moment of his physical death. And will be returning with Christ in his Soul Existence to receive his glorified Spiritual Body at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
What you are suggesting is a complete denial of what it means to become "saved", to become Born Again.
Yes! "the SOUL that sineth it shall die". And apart from God's mercy in Salvation (in Christ having endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, the full penalty for the sins of those whom He saves) that is indeed the fate of all Mankind, Eternal Death.
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I agree with the sleep until Jesus comes, because that's what the Bible says.
However, are these verses that say we'll not be saved now but later conflict with your view?
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
IN THE LAST TIME, not NOW.
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
THE END
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
DOES NOT SAY HE THAT ENDURE NOW, IS SAVED NOW. IT SAYS UNTO THE END, WHICH MEANS THE END, NOT NOW.
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."
PATIENCE. IF YOURE SAVED NOW WHY NEED PATIENCE. YE "MIGHT" RECEIVE.. ITS CONDITIONAL.
Above are 4 verses saying we're saved later, not now. Can you find 4 or more verses that say we're saved now and not later?
I don't see where the verses you referenced conflict in any way with what I said or the verses I quoted.
If God has "saved" us, i.e. we have become Born Again, we will ENDURE TO THE END. We will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the Law of God and we will more and more turn away from sin in our life; not in order that God will "save" us, but because we have a "want to" in our Soul to obey Him.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Then God will COMPLETE our Salvation at the Last Day when we receive our Resurrected Spiritual Bodies.
Here are some other verses for your consideration:
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
I know you study the word; but when we have preconceived beliefs carried in our carnal mind, we tend to read over words of TRUTH that disagree with our carnal mind; that's the way God made us, so when we come to TRUTH we know it WAS NOT of OURSELVES; but of GOD, HIS WORK, not the work of our hands.
You have said more than once that your going to died and lay in the grave until the resurrection, is this TRUE for BELIEVERS, or is this ONLY TRUE for unbelievers.
You said death is the cessation of life. Christ is IMMORTAL LIFE, raised by the Spirit of OUR Father, LIFE CANNOT DIE, the (OUR)
body is DEAD without LIFE (Christ), ALL flesh DIED on the CROSS, ONLY ONE BODY AROSE, the BODY of CHRIST: YOU (BELIEVERS).
By study of his word, HE is going TO CAUSE YOU to BELIEVE.
When we, by the Spirit of Christ, make comments on this forum, we should never cut and paste scriptures, but literally type God's words; those words become life unto you, they dislodge and replace the thoughts of our carnal mind.
If you want the many scriptures that says we DIED and were RESURRECTED with Christ and we can NEVER DIE ANYMORE, I will type them for you, I believe you know those scriptures from study; but those scripture have NOT YET become TRUTH to you.
Isaiah 26:19 .... TOGETHER with MY (Christ) dead body shall they ARISE .......
God Bless YOU!
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