19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Let us compare this scripture with these verses
John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Salvation isn't just us "accepting Christ" but us KNOWING Him and of course means He must "know" us. This word means the most intimate relationship and is used to describe relations between husband and wife in scripture. Hearing Christ therefore is only a first step on our part; the Pharisees were blind even though they saw (end of Matthew 23). Those who Christ know were those given to Him by the Father ( John 6:39). Predestination is a repeated theme in John indicating those who God gave the Christ to save. Salvation means goodfruit
If salvation comes when we get to know Jesus and Jesus gets to know us, can you please explain to me when that process took place in the following cases described in the Bible?
The thief crucified next to Jesus.
The Jews on Pentecost.
That eunuch
The Samaritans
Cornelious
The guard in Philippi
Had all the above time to get to know Jesus? Had Jesus time to get to know them?
Example. How long did it take Peter to talk to Cornelious and his own, 15-30 minutes? How much did he say about Jesus? Ok the Bible gives us a summary of what Petr said, but actually how long did it take Peter to talk about Jesus and how much did he say about Him?
Seems like I've been ambushed here. I am not sure whether I should attempt to answer each question one at a time. God of course is beyond time it only takes an instant for us; He of course predestined us from before the foundation of the world and all souls are His anyway. He came for the elect 2000 years ago so knows us better than we can know ourselves. In general His sheep hear His voice that is sufficient; such as Romans 8:10 if I have the verse right where we confess with our mouth and believe with our heart. That doesn't mean we ARE saved if it is disingenuous; so we shouldn't assume a professed 30 year Christian really believes any more than someone like the thief on the cross. You know them by their fruits in time; Christ knows His sheep instantly.
My dear brother in Christ, I know the feeling. I understand how it can feel as though you're being ambushed. I have experienced the same, not just here, but in face-to-face conversations with other believers.
I have never used the phrase "Once saved, always saved" on this forum even though I do believe in the permanency of salvation.
Because of this belief, people have told me that I believe I can do anything I want, and that I can sin all I want because I am saved regardless.
Have you ever been in a real live in-person conversation with someone who believes that you can lose your salvation. I have. People like to tell you that you can lose your salvation, but I have never been able to get anyone to tell me that they might lose theirs.
They will tell you that you can walk away from Christ and lose your salvation. I had one brother tell me this and when I asked him if he would ever walk away, his answer was no!
I asked him why not? His response was that he loved the Lord way too much to ever walk away. I guess that's the guy who won't lose his, but I can lose mine. Go figure!
Blessings to you my brother!
Romans 8:38-39, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
It is not you that you have been ambushed brother but the doctrine of OSAS has been ambushed. This doctrine takes into account certain verses that favour it but ignores all the rest that oppose it, like that "blot out from the Book of Life". But in this way one can come up with completely wrong conclusions, like it often happens. Trying to fit everything into that consept can lead into "strange" beliefs like the 5 foolish virgins were unbelievers, like an unbeliever can have spiritual gifts like prophesying and healing and so on. Next thing this doctrine can lead people to not be so close to the Lord and His commandments since we are all saved anyway and subsequently we will be left out like the 5 foolish virgins who were living a careless life. The Bible is full of warnings and examples of people who lived a loose christian life. Trying to press those people into an unbeliever or not truly saved pattern produces to christians a false security that they will get into heaven anyway. This is true if we strive to live righteously and hence we are clothed with the Lord's power. But when we leave our Father's house we are on our own. Father will not come after us but is waiting for us to return. It is then our own responsibility to wake up and not get lost while being away from home. GBU
I have always stated that in the end; God has a certain number of people that enter hell; and a set number in heaven and since God is fair and an impartial judge ( Romans 2:11) that no one will be able to prove Him wrong; or even want to question the final verdict. The wicked will be speechless and the righteous rejoice forever. This settles any issues with OSAS or Predestination for that matter; and even free will. There are those who hate the light and love darkness ( John 3:19-21).
There are as I mentioned before HUNDREDS of verses that on the surface may appear to render the OSAS concept void; but when we consider the context; the concluding meanings of the text and other factors more often than not it appears to support this idea. Again the scriptures that indate there is no longer any condemnation ( Romans 8:1) for believers; we have "passed from death to life ( John 5:24); will never die ( John 11:25) and a plethora of other supporting texts shows eternal security for a TRUE believer in Christ.
My emphasis was on the FRUIT of one's life rather than just what is verbalized. One's heart determines their course of action; the righteous is contrasted with the wicked shown in passages such as Mark 7:20-23. Christ for the wicked is a means to an end; whether it be financial security (such as for those who buy into the prosperity gospel or are out to borrow money and fleece those who are called to follow passages such as Luke 6:30.) Christ for the righteous on the other hand is God in the flesh and we are compelled through the Spirit and a new heart to serve with love and obedience (See John 14:15 and read rest of the chapter for further context). Again; loving our enemies and dying for them isn't something natural man will do (see Romans 5:7-9). If we understand the indebtedness we have to Christ and not just a band aid for our sin behavior but a death sentence to our SIN NATURE through the new life in Christ we are saved.
In my last post I ended with a discussion of the legalism of the Pharisees; as well as those that have what I call "sloppy Agape" or attempt to gloss over sin and use grace and forgiveness of all past; present and future sins as their excuse. In both of these cases at least for those who remain in a church fellowship we see an idolization of the Pastor most often who no doubt is contributing to one or the other error mentioned here. A true believer would move on if there is heresy coming from one of their own (see Acts 20:30). Justifying self righteousness is aided; of course when someone is financially well to do and credits the church leadership that promises "sowing a seed" will add to prosperity for all (whether or not they are giving a large sum themselves). The opposite of this are those widows and old ladies who are fleeced to their last dollar mesmerized by a Pastor who promises health and happiness with obedience and warns against not doing this despite what common sense would otherwise show.
This first paragraph assumes corrupt leadership. Another sign of our faith is respecting elders and pastors who ARE feeding the flock and tending the sheep properly. (see 1 Timothy 5:17). Disrespect of such authority often mainfests in impatience if a sermon runs 5 minutes late; frustration when genuine financial needs are brought up; lack of participation and interest in prayer and doing service projects in the church and for the comunity; etc. Beyond this; the admonitions of 1 John about loving the brethren are ignored (see 1 John 4:20). Such parishioners will sometimes leave; and we shouldn't strive to force them to stay.
There are others attempting to spread false doctrines which were of course never part of the true flock (see 1 John 2:19). They may leave but if not need to be dealt with lest they be a cancer that affects the whole flock (see warning in Galatians 5:9).
OSAS. True spiritual gifts vs false manifestations.
1 Corinthians 2:14 says: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Deuteronomy 32:28-29 states "For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them. O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!"
There are many reasons people may go to church and not be believers; a general statement would be there are many confessors but less who are POSSESSORS of the Holy Spirit. Focusing on earlier posts discussing how Satan focuses his attacks on the church we need in general to see how Satan is not only opposed to God but comes as s substitute; and mimics every spiritual gift in outward manifestations that may appear to be the same to the undiscerning (such as listed in 1 Corinthians 2:14 above).
As to spiritual manifestations; the "Kundalini" experience often mimics what are true spiritual experiences. We see mention in past revivals of people shaking or trembling at His Word which is scriptural ( Isaiah 66:2). But certain ritualaistic manifestations
cause abandon (usually coiling up like a snake on the floor). Godly sorrow certainly can cause weeping as was reported in many revivals from the past; uncontrollable laughter however is not something that seems edifying. Tongues of angels certainly can be imitated by demons as evidenced by experiences of those in the occult.
In looking at these "charismatic" gifts; we shoiuldn't ignore the "religious" spirit which involves endless ritual and legalistic practices that exceed the scope of the Word. The Pharisees added things with their traditions ( Mark 7:13 and other verses) and this was associated with pride; self righteous and leading others astray. (see Matthew 23:15). The opposite of this is using grace as a license to sin which Romans 6:1 warns about.
It is like the 5 unwise virgins who were left in the (spiritual) darkness (darkness means sin) because they had not taken any care in their lives to meet Jesus, they were busy doing other things. Careless lives. They didn't take their salvation seriously.
So why Jesus says he doesn't know them and never knew them? It is an exxageration of speech. He tells them and us, and He wants to make sure that we understand it that if we don't strive to live righteously untill the end no matter how successful spiritualy we were once, the door of the Kingdom of God will be closed to us. It is like Jesus never knew us, same ending as the rest of the sinful world. There isn't any possible security in a sinful life for the children of God.
Besides why would He know them. After their death their names were erased from the Book of Life.
Rev. 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
The kingdom of heaven here is the sphere of profession, as in Mt 13. All alike have lamps, but two facts fix the real status of the foolish virgins: They "took no oil," and the Lord said, "I know you not." Oil is the symbol of the Holy Spirit, and "If any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his" Rom 8:9
Nor could the Lord say to any believer, however unspiritual, "I know you not."
See James 4:4, "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God"
So Jesus refers to people who keep walking in faith. But not quite as Jesus expects them to do.
Secondly, those foolish virgins DO have oil in their lamps, just like the wise ones, but just not adequate. The oil usually represents the Holly Spirit, but I would say it represents a complete christian life where the Spirit has the primar role. The thing is though that being baptized in the Spirit is not enough, one has to be filled with the Spirit, and this doesn't occur on its own. One has to do that while praying etc. Those virgins were careless, they didn't take care to fill themselves with the Spirit. Did they turn to other things instead? Wordly things? They thought that there was time until Jesus comes so they postponed everything for the future? No, they were not waiting for Jesus. And they got up by surprise. Their light was blinking which means that sin often entered their lives. And when the light got off completely they were left out in the darkness of a sinful life. And they were left out.
Actually this is the purpose that Jesus said that parable, to warn us to always be ready for His coming. If those 5 unwise virgins were unbelievers what was the purpose that Jesus said that story? 5 believers go to Heaven and 5 unbelievers go to hell. So what, a new story? We know that. What is the warning in such a case since we all enter heaven?
Jim, the wage of sin is death, nomatter if one is a christian or not, it still remains death.
Ezekiel 18:24,
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
1. You are right about that "Nor could the Lord say to any believer, however unspiritual, "I know you not."
But lets remember that this event described by Jesus takes place on the Judgement Day.
In this life His is our Father. We are His children. Good or bad ones we are still His children, He will do anything to bring us into His Kingdom, even through fire which means repentance at the very last moment of our lives. In this life we may be His prodigal sons and daughters who their Father is waiting patiently to return back home. But after we die we will fall into 2 categories. The saved ones, the ones who successfully finished their course in this life and the ones who failed.
So God is our father in this life and also in the future life as long as we enter His Kingdom. But those who will fail will face Him not as a Father but as a Judge. Those who will be cast out into the lake of fire won't be His childen any more, and He will not be their Father any more. He will ignore their names, since those names will be erased from the Book of Life, which is God's written record (literal or figurative) which includes all the names of all saved people since the creation of mankind. In Matthew 25:41 Jesus calls those people "cursed". Names unknown, just like the name of that rich man in the story of the rich man and Lazarus where Jesus didn't even bother to give us his name. No reason for that, he got lost for ever. Like those who will not finish their course in victory.
2. The parable of the 10 virgins.
Lets gather all points of interest from this parable.
Firstly all of them are virgins, which means christians. Virgins are not married people, like we are now, we are engaged to Jesus and we are waiting for our marriage. There is no way Jesus calls the sinful world virgins, people who commit all sort of sin and adultery and fornication. Can christians commit adulltery (figuratively)?.
This parable speaks of those who have never been born of Gods Spirit. One who has been born from above is one who Jesus knows. This parable of the foolish virgins describes a person who has never received Christ, has never been born of His Spirit.
The Lord knows His sheep, all those who belong to Him. He will not lose one. I agree with you wholeheartedly. A true believer, (one who has been born of Gods Spirit) will never hear the words "depart from me, I never knew you."
"A true believer,(one who has been born of Gods Spirit)will never hear the words"depart from me,I never knew you."
What you said is confimed by the Word of GOD through our Lord JESUS Christ, saying:"All that the Father(the Word)giveth me shall come to me;and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out"- John 6:37.
The Word is GOD, so the Word in our heart is literally GOD in our heart-Hallelujah!Great is our GOD.GOD is our life, the life that He gives unto the true believers through JESUS( 1John 5:10 explains literally who has and has not the life),true believers BELIEVED in the testimony that GOD gave of His Son.
1 John 5:19-20 :
19 And we know that we are of GOD, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of GOD is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Matthew 11:27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
John 17:6-11
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, KEEP through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be One, as we are. AMEN.AMEN. AMEN. Praise GOD.
Thank you. We are kept by the power of God. That is one powerful grip. If I didn't have Christ in me, and if I wasn't being kept by His power, it would be so easy to walk away.
Amen well said; We are in a race, and as it is said "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us". "In your patience possess ye your souls". "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." This race has a finish line, and we cannot come up short, we must cross this finish line. "So run, that ye may obtain." The prize is not given until we cross the finish line and are told, "Well done thou good and faithful servant".
Speaking in finish line, what does the Word of GOD say prophetically? Daniel 12:12 - Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (that is 45 DAYS after the period of the 2nd half of the last week be finished-1260 days-plus a gap of 30 days, according to the calendar). Get ready, "For we are saved by hope- Romans 8:24- but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not- Romans 8:25-, then do we with patience wait for it. By the way, "hope maketh not ashamed (hope does not bring confusion); because the love of GOD is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us.
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
P.S.
Now, in the TURN of sixth GOD's Day to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium, we are living in the beginning of sorrows, so there will be only and only severe punishiments in the world of Devil as a whole (JESUS listed them- Matthew 24:3-8 and they fulfill LITERALLY), and the true believers will suffer a lot as JESUS warned us- Matthew 24:9-14. And the worst will happen successively in sequence- Matthew 24:15-25-.
Let's remember: Our GOD CURSED the Devil, and JESUS has already CURSED BY WRITTEN the betrayers- Matthew 25:41&46-, but "
upon the earth there be distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea (peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues)and the waves(generations) roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which ARE COMING on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken- Luke 21:25-26 combined with Romans 2:9&11 -->9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isaiah 33:14
3. Not only they know Him but it seems they were members of the church, they had spiritual gifts which they exercised. It is not logical to assume that people outside the church could have spir. gifts (you mentioned Judas as an example that that can happen). Can it really? Have you read in the Bible or have you met in the world unbelievers that were given gifts, like prophesying, casting out demons, healing? The only case I have read in the Bible were the sons of that priest who tried to cast out a demon and were almost killed by that demon. Acts 19:13-16. What did the demon say to them? That he didn't know them. The devils don't know and don't obey anybody else apart from the children of God. Besides the gifts are for the benefit of the church, not the world. Prophesying is for the edification of the church not of the world, anyway how could that be? To whom and what for one is prophesying to the world? Personally I have never heard or read anywhere about such a thing.
4. They are workers of iniquity. Corrupt lives.
5. Jesus doesn't know them.
Now 3. and 5. seem to be in contrust. How is it possible that they are saved and Jesus doesn't know them?
To understand that we have to see what the purpose of that teaching is, what Jesus is trying to tell them. He is trying to tell them that it is not adequate to believe in Him and get saved initially, they have to live a pure life and not continue or go back to their sinful wordly lives. They have to produce a fruit. Production of fruit is not an automatic process. One has to want to have a fruit and strive for it. Strive to live a righteous life with God providing them His Spirit to enable them to have a fruit. Is it possible to christians to not have any fruit in their lives?. An answer is given in the parable of the Sower. It is the 3rd case, as you said the pleasures, riches of this world etc, etc choke the seed and so those christians become fruitless.
I had decided not to participate any more in debates, especially about the OSAS doctrine, but I think I can not avoid it. I have seen that there are certain theological "inventions" of those who accept the OSAS belief. Firstly the one already known, that is the idea of "not truly saved" and now as I read your post, the idea of "accepting Christ but not knowing Him", am I wrong?
OK lets start from the begining. When is one saved? When he accepts Christ or when he gets to know Him? Definitely when he accepts Jesus. What does that mean? It means that as one hears the Word of God and that Word gets inside his heart (this is the seed that eventually goes inside the good soil) that Word causes him to repent and follow a new path in His life. Next, God regenerates him enabling him to follow that path. Can we agree on that? What does it mean that we know Christ? This is a process that takes a long time in our lives. It doesn't occur only when we read about Jesus and His teachings in the Bible but it mainly occurs as we follow Him in our lives and we get experience with Him along that path. This does not occur overnight, it is a lenthy process. So we can not claim that we are saved when we get to know Christ. In such a case it would take years to aquire salvation.
Let go to Matthew 7:21-23
" 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Lets gather all the points of interest in that teaching.
1. It occurs at the Final Judgement
2. Jesus talks to people who know Him or about Him, they call Him Lord.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Let us compare this scripture with these verses
John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Salvation isn't just us "accepting Christ" but us KNOWING Him and of course means He must "know" us. This word means the most intimate relationship and is used to describe relations between husband and wife in scripture. Hearing Christ therefore is only a first step on our part; the Pharisees were blind even though they saw (end of Matthew 23). Those who Christ know were those given to Him by the Father ( John 6:39). Predestination is a repeated theme in John indicating those who God gave the Christ to save. Salvation means goodfruit
One more final point.
If salvation comes when we get to know Jesus and Jesus gets to know us, can you please explain to me when that process took place in the following cases described in the Bible?
The thief crucified next to Jesus.
The Jews on Pentecost.
That eunuch
The Samaritans
Cornelious
The guard in Philippi
Had all the above time to get to know Jesus? Had Jesus time to get to know them?
Example. How long did it take Peter to talk to Cornelious and his own, 15-30 minutes? How much did he say about Jesus? Ok the Bible gives us a summary of what Petr said, but actually how long did it take Peter to talk about Jesus and how much did he say about Him?
Hope that helps.
Rich P
My dear brother in Christ, I know the feeling. I understand how it can feel as though you're being ambushed. I have experienced the same, not just here, but in face-to-face conversations with other believers.
I have never used the phrase "Once saved, always saved" on this forum even though I do believe in the permanency of salvation.
Because of this belief, people have told me that I believe I can do anything I want, and that I can sin all I want because I am saved regardless.
Have you ever been in a real live in-person conversation with someone who believes that you can lose your salvation. I have. People like to tell you that you can lose your salvation, but I have never been able to get anyone to tell me that they might lose theirs.
They will tell you that you can walk away from Christ and lose your salvation. I had one brother tell me this and when I asked him if he would ever walk away, his answer was no!
I asked him why not? His response was that he loved the Lord way too much to ever walk away. I guess that's the guy who won't lose his, but I can lose mine. Go figure!
Blessings to you my brother!
Romans 8:38-39, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
It is not you that you have been ambushed brother but the doctrine of OSAS has been ambushed. This doctrine takes into account certain verses that favour it but ignores all the rest that oppose it, like that "blot out from the Book of Life". But in this way one can come up with completely wrong conclusions, like it often happens. Trying to fit everything into that consept can lead into "strange" beliefs like the 5 foolish virgins were unbelievers, like an unbeliever can have spiritual gifts like prophesying and healing and so on. Next thing this doctrine can lead people to not be so close to the Lord and His commandments since we are all saved anyway and subsequently we will be left out like the 5 foolish virgins who were living a careless life. The Bible is full of warnings and examples of people who lived a loose christian life. Trying to press those people into an unbeliever or not truly saved pattern produces to christians a false security that they will get into heaven anyway. This is true if we strive to live righteously and hence we are clothed with the Lord's power. But when we leave our Father's house we are on our own. Father will not come after us but is waiting for us to return. It is then our own responsibility to wake up and not get lost while being away from home. GBU
I have always stated that in the end; God has a certain number of people that enter hell; and a set number in heaven and since God is fair and an impartial judge ( Romans 2:11) that no one will be able to prove Him wrong; or even want to question the final verdict. The wicked will be speechless and the righteous rejoice forever. This settles any issues with OSAS or Predestination for that matter; and even free will. There are those who hate the light and love darkness ( John 3:19-21).
There are as I mentioned before HUNDREDS of verses that on the surface may appear to render the OSAS concept void; but when we consider the context; the concluding meanings of the text and other factors more often than not it appears to support this idea. Again the scriptures that indate there is no longer any condemnation ( Romans 8:1) for believers; we have "passed from death to life ( John 5:24); will never die ( John 11:25) and a plethora of other supporting texts shows eternal security for a TRUE believer in Christ.
My emphasis was on the FRUIT of one's life rather than just what is verbalized. One's heart determines their course of action; the righteous is contrasted with the wicked shown in passages such as Mark 7:20-23. Christ for the wicked is a means to an end; whether it be financial security (such as for those who buy into the prosperity gospel or are out to borrow money and fleece those who are called to follow passages such as Luke 6:30.) Christ for the righteous on the other hand is God in the flesh and we are compelled through the Spirit and a new heart to serve with love and obedience (See John 14:15 and read rest of the chapter for further context). Again; loving our enemies and dying for them isn't something natural man will do (see Romans 5:7-9). If we understand the indebtedness we have to Christ and not just a band aid for our sin behavior but a death sentence to our SIN NATURE through the new life in Christ we are saved.
In my last post I ended with a discussion of the legalism of the Pharisees; as well as those that have what I call "sloppy Agape" or attempt to gloss over sin and use grace and forgiveness of all past; present and future sins as their excuse. In both of these cases at least for those who remain in a church fellowship we see an idolization of the Pastor most often who no doubt is contributing to one or the other error mentioned here. A true believer would move on if there is heresy coming from one of their own (see Acts 20:30). Justifying self righteousness is aided; of course when someone is financially well to do and credits the church leadership that promises "sowing a seed" will add to prosperity for all (whether or not they are giving a large sum themselves). The opposite of this are those widows and old ladies who are fleeced to their last dollar mesmerized by a Pastor who promises health and happiness with obedience and warns against not doing this despite what common sense would otherwise show.
This first paragraph assumes corrupt leadership. Another sign of our faith is respecting elders and pastors who ARE feeding the flock and tending the sheep properly. (see 1 Timothy 5:17). Disrespect of such authority often mainfests in impatience if a sermon runs 5 minutes late; frustration when genuine financial needs are brought up; lack of participation and interest in prayer and doing service projects in the church and for the comunity; etc. Beyond this; the admonitions of 1 John about loving the brethren are ignored (see 1 John 4:20). Such parishioners will sometimes leave; and we shouldn't strive to force them to stay.
There are others attempting to spread false doctrines which were of course never part of the true flock (see 1 John 2:19). They may leave but if not need to be dealt with lest they be a cancer that affects the whole flock (see warning in Galatians 5:9).
LET US MEDITATE ON MATTHEW 10:16!!!
1 Corinthians 2:14 says: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Deuteronomy 32:28-29 states "For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them. O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!"
There are many reasons people may go to church and not be believers; a general statement would be there are many confessors but less who are POSSESSORS of the Holy Spirit. Focusing on earlier posts discussing how Satan focuses his attacks on the church we need in general to see how Satan is not only opposed to God but comes as s substitute; and mimics every spiritual gift in outward manifestations that may appear to be the same to the undiscerning (such as listed in 1 Corinthians 2:14 above).
As to spiritual manifestations; the "Kundalini" experience often mimics what are true spiritual experiences. We see mention in past revivals of people shaking or trembling at His Word which is scriptural ( Isaiah 66:2). But certain ritualaistic manifestations
cause abandon (usually coiling up like a snake on the floor). Godly sorrow certainly can cause weeping as was reported in many revivals from the past; uncontrollable laughter however is not something that seems edifying. Tongues of angels certainly can be imitated by demons as evidenced by experiences of those in the occult.
In looking at these "charismatic" gifts; we shoiuldn't ignore the "religious" spirit which involves endless ritual and legalistic practices that exceed the scope of the Word. The Pharisees added things with their traditions ( Mark 7:13 and other verses) and this was associated with pride; self righteous and leading others astray. (see Matthew 23:15). The opposite of this is using grace as a license to sin which Romans 6:1 warns about.
It is like the 5 unwise virgins who were left in the (spiritual) darkness (darkness means sin) because they had not taken any care in their lives to meet Jesus, they were busy doing other things. Careless lives. They didn't take their salvation seriously.
So why Jesus says he doesn't know them and never knew them? It is an exxageration of speech. He tells them and us, and He wants to make sure that we understand it that if we don't strive to live righteously untill the end no matter how successful spiritualy we were once, the door of the Kingdom of God will be closed to us. It is like Jesus never knew us, same ending as the rest of the sinful world. There isn't any possible security in a sinful life for the children of God.
Besides why would He know them. After their death their names were erased from the Book of Life.
Rev. 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
GBU
Nor could the Lord say to any believer, however unspiritual, "I know you not."
See James 4:4, "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God"
So Jesus refers to people who keep walking in faith. But not quite as Jesus expects them to do.
Secondly, those foolish virgins DO have oil in their lamps, just like the wise ones, but just not adequate. The oil usually represents the Holly Spirit, but I would say it represents a complete christian life where the Spirit has the primar role. The thing is though that being baptized in the Spirit is not enough, one has to be filled with the Spirit, and this doesn't occur on its own. One has to do that while praying etc. Those virgins were careless, they didn't take care to fill themselves with the Spirit. Did they turn to other things instead? Wordly things? They thought that there was time until Jesus comes so they postponed everything for the future? No, they were not waiting for Jesus. And they got up by surprise. Their light was blinking which means that sin often entered their lives. And when the light got off completely they were left out in the darkness of a sinful life. And they were left out.
Actually this is the purpose that Jesus said that parable, to warn us to always be ready for His coming. If those 5 unwise virgins were unbelievers what was the purpose that Jesus said that story? 5 believers go to Heaven and 5 unbelievers go to hell. So what, a new story? We know that. What is the warning in such a case since we all enter heaven?
Jim, the wage of sin is death, nomatter if one is a christian or not, it still remains death.
Ezekiel 18:24,
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
I will try to answer your points.
1. You are right about that "Nor could the Lord say to any believer, however unspiritual, "I know you not."
But lets remember that this event described by Jesus takes place on the Judgement Day.
In this life His is our Father. We are His children. Good or bad ones we are still His children, He will do anything to bring us into His Kingdom, even through fire which means repentance at the very last moment of our lives. In this life we may be His prodigal sons and daughters who their Father is waiting patiently to return back home. But after we die we will fall into 2 categories. The saved ones, the ones who successfully finished their course in this life and the ones who failed.
So God is our father in this life and also in the future life as long as we enter His Kingdom. But those who will fail will face Him not as a Father but as a Judge. Those who will be cast out into the lake of fire won't be His childen any more, and He will not be their Father any more. He will ignore their names, since those names will be erased from the Book of Life, which is God's written record (literal or figurative) which includes all the names of all saved people since the creation of mankind. In Matthew 25:41 Jesus calls those people "cursed". Names unknown, just like the name of that rich man in the story of the rich man and Lazarus where Jesus didn't even bother to give us his name. No reason for that, he got lost for ever. Like those who will not finish their course in victory.
2. The parable of the 10 virgins.
Lets gather all points of interest from this parable.
Firstly all of them are virgins, which means christians. Virgins are not married people, like we are now, we are engaged to Jesus and we are waiting for our marriage. There is no way Jesus calls the sinful world virgins, people who commit all sort of sin and adultery and fornication. Can christians commit adulltery (figuratively)?.
This parable speaks of those who have never been born of Gods Spirit. One who has been born from above is one who Jesus knows. This parable of the foolish virgins describes a person who has never received Christ, has never been born of His Spirit.
The Lord knows His sheep, all those who belong to Him. He will not lose one. I agree with you wholeheartedly. A true believer, (one who has been born of Gods Spirit) will never hear the words "depart from me, I never knew you."
Blessings to you!
"A true believer,(one who has been born of Gods Spirit)will never hear the words"depart from me,I never knew you."
What you said is confimed by the Word of GOD through our Lord JESUS Christ, saying:"All that the Father(the Word)giveth me shall come to me;and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out"- John 6:37.
The Word is GOD, so the Word in our heart is literally GOD in our heart-Hallelujah!Great is our GOD.GOD is our life, the life that He gives unto the true believers through JESUS( 1John 5:10 explains literally who has and has not the life),true believers BELIEVED in the testimony that GOD gave of His Son.
1 John 5:19-20 :
19 And we know that we are of GOD, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of GOD is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Matthew 11:27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
John 17:6-11
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, KEEP through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be One, as we are. AMEN.AMEN. AMEN. Praise GOD.
Thank you. We are kept by the power of God. That is one powerful grip. If I didn't have Christ in me, and if I wasn't being kept by His power, it would be so easy to walk away.
Blessings to you in Christ Jesus!
Amen well said; We are in a race, and as it is said "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us". "In your patience possess ye your souls". "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." This race has a finish line, and we cannot come up short, we must cross this finish line. "So run, that ye may obtain." The prize is not given until we cross the finish line and are told, "Well done thou good and faithful servant".
God bless,
RLW
Speaking in finish line, what does the Word of GOD say prophetically? Daniel 12:12 - Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (that is 45 DAYS after the period of the 2nd half of the last week be finished-1260 days-plus a gap of 30 days, according to the calendar). Get ready, "For we are saved by hope- Romans 8:24- but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not- Romans 8:25-, then do we with patience wait for it. By the way, "hope maketh not ashamed (hope does not bring confusion); because the love of GOD is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us.
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
P.S.
Now, in the TURN of sixth GOD's Day to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium, we are living in the beginning of sorrows, so there will be only and only severe punishiments in the world of Devil as a whole (JESUS listed them- Matthew 24:3-8 and they fulfill LITERALLY), and the true believers will suffer a lot as JESUS warned us- Matthew 24:9-14. And the worst will happen successively in sequence- Matthew 24:15-25-.
Let's remember: Our GOD CURSED the Devil, and JESUS has already CURSED BY WRITTEN the betrayers- Matthew 25:41&46-, but "
upon the earth there be distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea (peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues)and the waves(generations) roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which ARE COMING on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken- Luke 21:25-26 combined with Romans 2:9&11 -->9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isaiah 33:14
3. Not only they know Him but it seems they were members of the church, they had spiritual gifts which they exercised. It is not logical to assume that people outside the church could have spir. gifts (you mentioned Judas as an example that that can happen). Can it really? Have you read in the Bible or have you met in the world unbelievers that were given gifts, like prophesying, casting out demons, healing? The only case I have read in the Bible were the sons of that priest who tried to cast out a demon and were almost killed by that demon. Acts 19:13-16. What did the demon say to them? That he didn't know them. The devils don't know and don't obey anybody else apart from the children of God. Besides the gifts are for the benefit of the church, not the world. Prophesying is for the edification of the church not of the world, anyway how could that be? To whom and what for one is prophesying to the world? Personally I have never heard or read anywhere about such a thing.
4. They are workers of iniquity. Corrupt lives.
5. Jesus doesn't know them.
Now 3. and 5. seem to be in contrust. How is it possible that they are saved and Jesus doesn't know them?
To understand that we have to see what the purpose of that teaching is, what Jesus is trying to tell them. He is trying to tell them that it is not adequate to believe in Him and get saved initially, they have to live a pure life and not continue or go back to their sinful wordly lives. They have to produce a fruit. Production of fruit is not an automatic process. One has to want to have a fruit and strive for it. Strive to live a righteous life with God providing them His Spirit to enable them to have a fruit. Is it possible to christians to not have any fruit in their lives?. An answer is given in the parable of the Sower. It is the 3rd case, as you said the pleasures, riches of this world etc, etc choke the seed and so those christians become fruitless.
I had decided not to participate any more in debates, especially about the OSAS doctrine, but I think I can not avoid it. I have seen that there are certain theological "inventions" of those who accept the OSAS belief. Firstly the one already known, that is the idea of "not truly saved" and now as I read your post, the idea of "accepting Christ but not knowing Him", am I wrong?
OK lets start from the begining. When is one saved? When he accepts Christ or when he gets to know Him? Definitely when he accepts Jesus. What does that mean? It means that as one hears the Word of God and that Word gets inside his heart (this is the seed that eventually goes inside the good soil) that Word causes him to repent and follow a new path in His life. Next, God regenerates him enabling him to follow that path. Can we agree on that? What does it mean that we know Christ? This is a process that takes a long time in our lives. It doesn't occur only when we read about Jesus and His teachings in the Bible but it mainly occurs as we follow Him in our lives and we get experience with Him along that path. This does not occur overnight, it is a lenthy process. So we can not claim that we are saved when we get to know Christ. In such a case it would take years to aquire salvation.
Let go to Matthew 7:21-23
" 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Lets gather all the points of interest in that teaching.
1. It occurs at the Final Judgement
2. Jesus talks to people who know Him or about Him, they call Him Lord.
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