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Article on Faith and Grace
Ro 5:21 "So that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Spiritual salvation comes as a gift of God's grace (i.e., his undeserved favor, love, kindness, help and spiritual enablement), but it can only be received and become personally effective in individuals' lives by the response of faith. To understand the process of salvation, we must understand these two words. (For further consideration of the issue of spiritual salvation, see article on Biblical Words for Salvation.)
Saving faith. Faith in Jesus Christ is the only condition or requirement for receiving God's free gift of spiritual salvation. Faith is not only a matter of what a person believes about Christ; it is also an active response from the heart of a person who truly desires to accept Christ as Savior (i.e., the Forgiver of his or her sins) and to follow him as Lord (i.e., the Leader of his or her life; cf. Mt 4:19; 16:24; Lk 9:23-25; Jn 10:4, 27; 12:26; Rev 14:4). This means that faith is more than intellectual acknowledgment that Jesus Christ is God's Son who died to pay the price for our sins. True Biblical faith-the kind that brings spiritual salvation-involves an active trust by which a person surrenders complete control of his or her life to Christ and commits to following his purposes. (1) The NT description and pattern of faith includes four main elements:
(a) Faith involves firmly believing that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead to bring us life, then trusting in him as our personal Lord and Savior (see Ro 1:17, note). It involves believing with all our hearts (Ro 6:17; Eph 6:6; Heb 10:22), surrendering our wills (i.e., our desires, choices, plans, purposes and motives) and devoting ourselves completely to Jesus Christ and his purposes as revealed in the Bible.
I agree with you on some very excellent points. In particular you stated: "it is also an active response from the heart of a person who truly desires to accept Christ as Savior"
It's all about us being Active! Many "modern day christians" will disagree and say they have to do nothing, it's all on Christ. It's simple, if we don't respond to Christ and take action that he commands- we don't get our salvation!
There are many actions we are required to take after we accept Jesus as our saviour, like
Picking up our cross, thats a daily action.
Repenting from sin, a daily action.
Turning our backs on the world, a daily action.
Showing love and serving our fellow man, a daily action.
Praying is a daily action.
Following God's/Jesus Commandments, a daily action.
I could go on, but it's easy to see that if we accept Christ as our saviour and we have the Holy Spirit we will be very busy serving Him.
On the other hand, if we say we are saved and living worldly lives, we are only fooling ourselves. 1John 2:15
GBU
The apostle James pretty much sums it up below. TRUE LIFE SAVING FAITH is not barren it produces fruit. Not because we want Jesus to love us more, but because we love HIM. Faith without works is dead! Dead faith! Remember the parable of the talents? Some "Christians" are going to have a rude awakening when the Messiah returns.
James 2:15-20 (KJV) 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
Article on Faith and Grace
(b) Faith involves repentance (i.e., admitting, expressing true sorrow for and turning from our own sinful, God-defying way; Ac 17:30; 2Co 7:10) and a complete turning toward God in order to follow Christ. True Biblical faith always involves sincere humility and repentance (Ac 2:37-38; see Mt 3:2, note on repentance).
(c) Faith includes obedience to Jesus Christ and his Word. Such obedience must become a way of life, inspired by our trust in Christ, by our gratitude to God and by the life-transforming work of the Holy Spirit ( Jn 3:3-6; 14:15, 21-24; Heb 5:8-9). It is an "obedience that comes from faith" (Ro 1:5). For this reason, faith and obedience go together. In fact, they cannot be separated when it comes to serving God and following Christ (cf. Ro 16:26). True saving faith is not possible without the commitment to sanctification (i.e., the ongoing process of spiritual purity, separation from evil, growth and preparation for God's purposes; see article on Sanctification).
(d) Faith includes a passionate, personal devotion to Jesus Christ that expresses itself in complete and selfless trust, love, gratitude and loyalty. In a personal relationship with Christ, true faith (and its expression of devotion) cannot be separated from love; the two completely work together as though they were the threads of the same cloth. Both faith and love represent a personal act of surrender and self-sacrifice directed toward Christ (cf. Mt 22:37; Jn 21:15-17; Ac 8:37; Ro 6:17; Gal 2:20; Eph 6:6; 1Pe 1:8).
I wouldn't use terms like "true saving faith". Words including the term "true", like "truly saved people" can mislead people into false beliefs. I would say an "active faith". Faith exists in reborn christians but it has to produce results, like fruit, like works...Is it possible for a christian to not have an active faith? Well in the parable of the Sower the 3rd case is an example. If a reborn person stops following Jesus and directs themselves towards other things even if those things may not be sinful but may get us out of our christian path, then their faith becomes inactive. Why do people direct themselves towards other things? People often say ,"a person follows his heart", that is what he loves best where his heart and treasure is. Then the light in our lamp is in danger of going off.
(2) Faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior is both the act of a single moment (when an individual initially repents of sin and accepts God's forgiveness and yields his or her life to Christ) and an ongoing attitude of action that must continue to grow and gain strength (see Jn 1:12, note). Because we have faith in a definite person who loves us and gave his life for us (Ro 4:25; 8:32; 1Th 5:9-10), our faith should become greater (Ro 4:20; 2Th 1:3; 1Pe 1:3-9). Trust and obedience-two of God's primary requirements in our lives-develop into loyalty and devotion (Ro 14:8; 2Co 5:15). Loyalty and devotion then develop into a strong sense of personal attachment to and love for the Lord Jesus Christ ( Php 1:21; 3:8-10; see Jn 15:4, note; Gal 2:20, note). This kind of faith in Christ brings us into a new relationship with God and spares us from his final judgment against sin (Ro 1:18; 8:1). Through that new relationship, we become "dead to sin" (i.e., free from its control and unresponsive to its influence, Ro 6:1-18) and alive in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit who lives within us ( Gal 3:5; 4:6).
God's Grace. In the OT, God revealed himself as a God of grace and mercy who showed love to his people, not because they deserved it, but because of his own desire to have a personal relationship with them and to be faithful to the promises he made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (see Ex 6:9, note; see articles on God's Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, The Passover, and The Day of Atonement). Justice could be described as getting exactly what we deserve. Mercy could be described as God sparing us from the consequences and judgment we deserve. Grace could be described as God granting us favor and benefits we do not deserve. The NT focuses on the theme of God's grace in the giving of his Son, Jesus, who willingly gave his life for undeserving sinners. Christians today continue to experience that grace through the presence and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Do we really ever reach a stage that we become "dead to sin", in other words a sinless state? Paul suggests us to consider ourselves dead to sin that is strive not to be controlled/influenced by it, but has anybody ever succeeded to become sinless?
Leviticus 17:10-14 The eating of BLOOD was likewise forbidden. The blood was for ATONEMENT, not for nourishment. "The life of the flesh is in the blood." v11 The principle behind atonement is life for life. Since the wages of sin is death, symbolized by the shedding of blood, so "without the shedding of blood is no remission." Forgiveness does not come because the penalty of sin is EXCUSED, but because it is [[[ TRANSFERRED ]]] to a sacrifice whose lifeblood is poured out. Verse 11 is one of the key verses in Leviticus and should be memorized. When an animal was slaughtered, its blood was drained immediately. An animal that died accidentally was unclean if its blood was not drained right away.
This reveals just how SERIOUS sin actually is. You can get rid of it, it follows you... It has to be TRANSFERRED.. This is why the blood of Jesus Christ is SO PRECIOUS! He is the ultimate sacrifice for all our sins past, present, and future. We are covered under his blood! As Christians, we should try to avoid sin as much as possible, but if we do fall down we can repent, and the LORDS' blood will cover that sin! That is how back-sliding Christians can be restored.
Hi again Jim.
Do we really ever reach a stage that we become "dead to sin", in other words a sinless state? Paul suggests us to consider ourselves dead to sin that is strive not to be controlled/influenced by it, but has anybody ever succeeded to become sinless?
ABSOLUTELY not and it is not even possible simply due to the fact that "man" in his fallen state will always have his sin nature. There is a struggle between this sin nature and us yielding to the lead of the Holy Spirit.
The difference between the Christian and the unsaved is that the Christian does not make sin his/her current walk in life. They might sin on occasion, but regret it and grieve the Holy Spirit, confess the sin, and repent and try not to do it again. A far cry from the unsaved who sin with impunity and not only have no conscience about the sins they commit they are proud of doing them!
The Christian internally no longer WANTS to sin and feels grieved when he does so, in a way he is dead to sin, but the unsaved could give a damn and is proud about it!
Post-baptismal sin can not make anyone lose their salvation... Only individual apostasy can do that, but if one turns back from this apostasy it is still not too late because the Holy Spirit is still working with at least some kind of spiritual pulse no matter how unspiritual the apostate might be.
(9) Those who genuinely become concerned about their spiritual condition and have a desire to return to God in true repentance (i.e., changing one's attitude toward God, admitting sin, turning from one's own way and submitting to God) can be sure that they have not committed the unforgivable sin (cf. Mk 3:29), or ultimate apostasy. God's Word clearly affirms that he does not want anyone to perish or be spiritually lost and separated from him for eternity ( 2Pe 3:9; cf. Isa 1:18-19; 55:6-7). In fact, the heavenly Father will joyfully receive any wayward, rebellious or lost child who truly repents and returns to him (compare Gal 5:
Lets keep the discussion going.
In your post you wrote, "Post-baptismal sin can not make anyone lose their salvation... Only individual apostasy can do that".
I disagree. An imaginary story: A christian dies. He (or she) was a good christian, he followed Jesus all the way, kept the faith, strived to live rightously BUT he left some issues in his life unsolved. Maybe he was feeling hostile towards that neighbor because that neighbor did something to him, and he can't get over it or don't want to get over it and forgive that neighbor. Maybe he was unjust towards a person, maybe he cheated the state by not paying his fair share of taxes he should had done. Maybe he was looking passionately at that woman neighbor and didn't try to fight and cut that feeling off. Anything really. Any issue which was not cleared before he goes. Do you think he is still eligible to enter heaven? In my opinion no, he will not get there because he died in an unrepentant state. He didn't repend about those sins although he had done everything else properly. So, in my opinion, post-baptismal sin can lead you to hell as long as we are not willing to fix some issues. And since we do not know the day and time of our death/rapture (pre or post doesn't make any difference) we must always be in a repentance mode and not only that but in a mood to fix/restore practically out relationships with all those we have problems with. So it is not only individual apostasy that makes you lose your soul, it is more than that.
When I made that statement I was speaking in a general sense. I see what you mean, but to be honest I don't think either of us will know for sure how the "mechanics" of how that may work. We can only go by what Scripture states or reveals to us. You might be correct for those who sin and didn't repent before they died unexpectedly.. We just don't have an exact explanation or example or parable for us to enlight us further to a situation such as that. So I'm afraid we have to assume a bit. Kinda brings to mind something I read from Spurgeon about the "sin that leads to death" found in 1 John 5:16-17 some things we just don't know?Refer to his "illustration" below:
5:16-17 "There is sin that leads to death.... All unrighteousness is sin." Perhaps someone thinks he has committed this unpardonable sin and is at this moment grieving over it. If so, it is clear that he cannot have committed the "sin that leads to death," or else he could not grieve over it. Whoever repents of sin and trusts in Jesus Christ is freely and fully forgiven; therefore, he has clearly not committed a sin that will not be forgiven. There is much in this passage to make us prayerful and watchful, but there is nothing here to make a troubled heart feel anything like despair.
ILLUSTRATION 5:16
An owner of a country estate may put up a sign that reads, "Danger: Beware of traps and spring guns." No one would think of going to the front door of the mansion and saying, "Would you please tell me where the traps and spring guns are set?" If we asked that question, the answer would be, "The purpose of this warning is not to tell you where they are, for you have no business to trespass there at all." So "all unrighteousness is sin," and we are warned to keep clear of it. "There is sin that leads to death," but we are not told what that sin is on purpose that we may, by the grace of God, keep clear of sin altogether.
Maybe Matthew 6:14-15 can be applicable to such a situation, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"
What about Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.". If in our heart dwells bitterness, hostility, passions, ...?
Some thoughts about the unpardonable sin. Firstly in general all unrepentant sin is unpardonable. But there are cases in a christian life that a sin can become unpardonable. It seems that there is a line that if one crosses, there is no return. I would call it "a line of repentance". When one crosses that line it seems they will never repent any more whatever happens in their life
1. An individual apostasy from God that goes on and on for a long time and christians are moving further and further away from God while their heart gets more and more hardened and their conscious becomes less and less sensitive, seems they eventually cross the line of no return. It is the situation described by Paul in Hebrews 10:26-29 and Hebrews 6:4-8.
2. Blasphemy against the HS. The word Blasphemy in anc grk has the meaning of giving somebody a bad reputation, lke calling demonic the actions of the HS. It is unpardonable. Again people who do that have already crossed the repentance line. Why? Because one who in purpose and with full knowledge of what is doing(not just repeat what he heard from somebody else) fights against God, there is noway he will ever repent.
3. Lying to the Holly Spirit, like Ananias and Sapphira did. They were not given any chance to repent(apart from being questioned by Peter), they immediately fell down dead. So trying to cheat on the Holly Spirit is unpardonable.
4. As a final one that will occur in the future. Receiving the mark of the beast is also unpardonable. This indicates that people who will accept the mark will have knowledge of what they will be doing.
Blessings.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Yes, "Excellent exegesis (of) Brother Giannis, yet terriffying subject matter" , but there are more also very terrifying things said by our Lord Jesus Christ for happening in this current time, simultaneously and sequencially after this current period of sorrows that is running, as follow:
Matthew 24:9-15
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that SHALL ENDURE unto the END, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then SHALL THE END come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) --->2Thes. 2:3-4 -> 3 Let no man deceive you by any means:for that Day (referring to this current Day, the seventh and last Day) shall not come,except there come a falling away first,and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth (will opose)and exalt(eth) himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth (shall sit- John 5:43-47) in the temple of God(JERUSALEM, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt- Revelation 11:8), shewing himself that he is God. Furthermore we will see not so far from this present time, the son of perdition shall give to the Vicarivs Filii Dei
his Power, and his Seat(in Jerusalem), and great Authority- Revelation 13:2.
And there was (there will be) given unto him (unto the Beast of sea)a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Let's be ready,the days will be shortened
(8) Some who reject their faith and abandon a true relationship with God ( Heb 3:12) may still think they are Christians. However, their spiritual neglect and unconcern toward the demands of Christ, the inner voice of the Holy Spirit and the warnings of Scripture prove that they are in rebellion against God. Because of this possibility of self-deception, Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves" ( 2Co 13:5, note).
(9) Those who genuinely become concerned about their spiritual condition and have a desire to return to God in true repentance (i.e., changing one's attitude toward God, admitting sin, turning from one's own way and submitting to God) can be sure that they have not committed the unforgivable sin (cf. Mk 3:29), or ultimate apostasy. God's Word clearly affirms that he does not want anyone to perish or be spiritually lost and separated from him for eternity ( 2Pe 3:9; cf. Isa 1:18-19; 55:6-7). In fact, the heavenly Father will joyfully receive any wayward, rebellious or lost child who truly repents and returns to him (compare Gal 5:4 with 4:19; 1Co 5:1-5 with 2Co 2:5-11; see also Lk 15:11-24; Ro 11:20-23; Jas 5:19-20; Rev 3:14-20; note the example of Peter, Mt 16:16; 26:74-75; Jn 21:15-22).
J. Wesley Adams and Donald C. Stamps, Fire Bible (Springfield, MO: Life Publishers International, 2011), Heb 3:12.
It is my personal belief that this "sin unto death" is the final ultimate apostasy. Similar to final stage cancer at that point is beyond hope and brings Spiritual and eternal death.
(7) It must be emphasized that while spiritual backsliding is a danger for all who drift from faith in Christ ( Heb 2:1-3) and turn away from God (6:6), ultimate apostasy resulting in the hopeless condition described in the previous point does not occur without constant and deliberate resistance against the Holy Spirit (see Mt 12:31, note on sin against the Holy Spirit). Just as we are not saved by our own works and efforts, but by God's grace (see Eph 2:8-9; Tit 3:5), neither are we fully condemned to separation from God by our actions alone (although we will be judged by them; 2Co 5:10). People are saved spiritually by accepting God's grace and putting their faith in Christ; and people are condemned spiritually by rejecting (or simply not accepting) God's grace and refusing to put their faith in Christ (cf. 12:15, 25; Ac 19:19; 2Th 2:10; Rev 16:9). Refusing to have faith in God can be expressed in several ways, including refusing to believe in God, refusing to rely on God, refusing to take God at his Word, refusing to admit the wrongness of our own way, refusing to accept God's way of spiritual salvation through Christ alone and refusing to accept God's help and involvement in our lives. A person who allows his or her heart to become hardened or rebellious toward God by refusing him in any of these ways is in serious danger of rejecting God permanently (3:12).
How do you explain what Holy Spirit says in 1Cor 15:34 Romans 6-8 & 1John 3:6-9 ?
& what Jesus says in John 8:34 Matt 5:48 ?
Present your position whatever that may be and show us exactly how these verses support that position exactly.
it appears to me, that they're self explainiable, but to accommodate your request & to get to the point of them all,
sin not, Rom 6:14-16
for where Satan is yielded to in the least, he's still a prince & rules in the darkness, it is his right, sin being his dominion.
Romans 6:14-16 In this passage, the main point is to emphasize the idea of being freed from the power of sin through faith in Jesus Christ. The key takeaway emphasizes freedom from sin through grace and the importance of choosing obedience to God rather than sin.
The main points in these verses are:
1. **Freedom from Sin:** Paul is emphasizing that believers are no longer under the dominion or control of sin because of their faith in Jesus Christ. This freedom from sin's mastery is a result of being under God's grace.
2. **Not an Excuse for Sin:** Paul addresses a potential misunderstanding or misinterpretation of this freedom. He makes it clear that being under grace does not mean that Christians have a license to sin or live in a sinful way. Instead, they are called to a life of obedience to God.
3. **Choice of Obedience:** Paul presents a choice to the believers. They can either offer themselves as obedient slaves to sin, which leads to spiritual death, or they can choose obedience to God, which leads to righteousness and life.
The main point of Romans 6:14-16 is that through faith in Jesus Christ, believers are freed from the dominion of sin. However, this freedom should [[[[ NOT BE ]]]] misinterpreted as a license to sin; rather, it should lead to a life of obedience and righteousness in service to God.
from your answer, you used the words "should lead a life of obedience" this is in character of today's Christianity
would you agree that those who reject the Grace of God appearance in them, not believing that it is He who is speaking to them in their hearts, the conviction of sin & of righteousness are deluded in their false hopes of salvation? Though they may zealously profess themselve born again Christians, contrary to Truth Rom 6 1John 3:9, who continuing in unbelief & sin for life, not believing that all things are possible with God. including a state of sinlessness, which includes becoming a partaker of His divine nature having escape the corruption of this world through lust, "a past tense" statement, reaching a state of Grace perfection were love is perfected in them according to
1John 2:5-6 1John 5:18 Rom 8:29
For we know that God is the same yesterday & today & forever meaning
His Word Isa 55:11 which is the Word of Faith that Paul preached. Rom 10:11
In Holy Spirit commanded exhortation in 1Cor 15:34
If one believes to never expects to reach a state of perfection of the Divine Nature in this life, than its stands to Scripture & sound reasoning that, that person have not receive the true knowledge of God, but a form of godliness without the power, an image without the Spirit & the Life of the Son of God, for the nature of true saving faith purifies the heart, which faith is held in a pure conscience by which
The Blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin, redeem from all iniquity, & implants the divine nature were one sins no more.
Heb 10:1,2,26
I believe one of mankind greatest sins is not being as we were created, Gen 1:27 & I believe God sent His Son to making this possible again, even to a higher state Rom 8:17 Gal 3:29
Link
Satan "sows" "children of the wicked one," who profess to be children of the kingdom, and in outward ways are so like the true children that only the angels may, in the end, be trusted to separate them. [[[[[[So great is Satan's power of deception that the tares often really suppose themselves to be children of the kingdom.]]]]]] Many other parables and exhortations have this mingled condition in view.
Children of the wicked one are always religious unbelievers, mere pagan / nonbelievers are never so-called.
Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves" 2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV) 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
What about the Western Christian women who do not submit to their Christian husbands and we know probably most of them don't?
What about the total disregard for Head Coverings I just posted on that.
Link
Post-baptismal sin is covered under the blood for sins which we REPENT from not living IN as a way or walk of life and never really turn away from. What is true "repentance" it is like a burning house you never go back to it!
I liken this to two ships anchored at port. One ship is grounded in the Word and will not move from the harbor by the ebb and flow of the ocean. The second ship anchor is eroded due to continued sin as it continues to drift away from the harbor EVENTUALLY it finds itself lost in the middle of the ocean with no clue how to get back--- apostasy
1 Peter 4:17 (KJV)
you've answer very prudently & soberly in both instances, continue in His love & your love for the Truth as the Grace of God unfolds the Revelation of Jesus Christ to you.
in His love & truth
Frankie J
Good discussion here. We have engaged in this topic a number of occasions before, but it is always a good topic to continue examining.
I agree that we should desire to be Christ-like, but only Christ, who is God in the flesh is truly altogether good and sinless. In this life our sinful nature remains in us, it permeates our whole being. But being reborn, we now have a victorious spiritual nature enlivened by the Holy Spirit. The grace of God administered to us by the Holy Spirit not only gives us the desire to ,ive a life in imitation of Christ but also gives us the power to resist the sinful nature, whereas the unbeliever does not have such power because the Holy Spirit does not dwell in them. So, as believers, we are able to live godly lives, but not sin-free lives. The Holy Spirit is our sanctifier, and He is bit by bit conforming us to the moral character of Christ.
I have met people who claim to have reached sinless perfection in their lives, but in reality, I notice many sins happening in their lives. They have just pridefully either deluded themselves, or ignore these sines, or else attribute them to mistakes or weaknesses, but do not admit them to be sin. For me, I know I am growing in holiness because the Spirit lives in me, but also, because He lives in me, I am more and more aware of sins I do not do inwardly and outwardly, in attitudes and motives, and in reluctance when I know the right thing to do, even though I still may obey, the reluctance shows me that I am still sinful.
Sorry, but I feel compelled to interject on this issue.
You stated:"So, as believers, we are able to live godly lives, but not sin-free lives." How do we live Godly lives and remain in sin?
You're stating we CAN'T live sin free lives and I believe that each of us defeat ourselves before we even get started by using and accepting the word can't. One of the biggest failures that I see with modern Christians today is this steady unending drumbeat - we can never stop sinning. They continualy reinforce this idea that they themselves, and everyone else will never ever stop sinning during thier lifetime(s). Don't you think this mindset just reinforces and minimises sin by making it more acceptable.
The multitudes of churchs and pastors out there are busy repeating this same mantra of "we can't stop sinning"' while at the same time living worldy fleshy lifestyles. Not hard to figure out why they haven't overcome sin.
I'm tired of hearing Christains saying they can't stop sinning. I would like to start hearing - we can stop sinning and here are ways that I'm working with the Holy Spirit toward becoming sin free. Where in the scripture does Jesus tell us we can't stop sinning? Jesus tells us in scripture "we can" and should stop sinning. If we are supposed to pick up our cross to follow and emulate Jesus should we be stating something different than He would to ourselves and others - that we can never stop sinning?
I know one thing for sure, if you say CAN'T you never will. I love you GiGi but please try to get CAN'T out of your head, and instead it might be better to say it's very hard to stop all sin - but I believe I can with Gods help, because he promised me that I could accomplish anything with Faith! Matt 17:20
I noticed your comment to GiGi and think a lot of these arguments are circular where people are closer in belief than they initially realize. Sometimes each may think the other is not emphasizing a certain point to their liking and then emphasizes it while minimizing the thing the other was emphasizing. Naturally the other seeing the response may then feel his/her point was minimized so that person may want to highlights the original point again.
Sin, yes, we all sin. That's Biblical. This includes Christians.
Paul was a Christian and described his constant wrestling with sin and obedience. He wasn't given an automatic free pass where everything was suddenly easy, it took effort to follow and obey Jesus. I personally think effort in following Jesus is minimized and have had many discussions with people who falsely assume any effort whatsoever automatically means you're trying to earn salvation. Ironically, effort towards secular things is not seen as bad.
I know people who call themselves saved Christians at church who are actively living in sin and ok with that- for instance affairs, premarital sex, etc. They are ok with that because pastors and other Christians tell them its ok, that to correct would be legalism and that's bad. Some believe they are merely following a pre-determined script laid out by the Holy Spirit and that their sin, if they even call it that, only strengthens their faith. This ignores Romans 6. That is wrong and dangerous in my opinion. The message is distorted to where some are almost saying that when you're following Jesus, obeying Him is "bad". They seem blind to the contradiction, but sin is blinding and satan is crafty.
There's a difference in obedience, effort, and genuineness that may be hard to quantify. God ultimately knows our heart.
You are right, Dan and I are closer in thought than it seems. I would never advocate anyone to keep on sinning because of the grace we have in Christ, nor would I minimize what is sinful as inconsequential. I realize there are some pastors and believers who seem to do so, but I am not one of them.
As a believer, I think it is important to be careful about the "company we keep" so that we will not loosen our resolve to live in obedience to God. Paul warns us in 1 Cor. 15:33 that bad company corrupts our character. Those who we spend much time with or have as teachers over us should not have a lax view of sin and an imbalanced view of grace that excuses sinful behavior.
Of course, we cannot avoid everyone else because we are to be a light to others. But we are not to be influenced for evil by such people.
Adam, thank for adding to this discussion. Perhaps Bro Dan misunderstood me or just wanted to emphasize another aspect of this topic. I am good with that.
I hope to hear more from you more often, Adam.
Always nice to hear from you, and thanks for your input regarding sin.
For some time now on this forum I have been questioning sin and the current Christian attitude toward sin. In particular the acceptance that each of us will always be sinners during our lives and never receiving the sanctification promised. I truly believe that acceptance of this "can't ever stop sinning mindset" doesn't help us to grow closer to God. I believe saying we can't stop sinning is just putting a mental stumbling block before ourselves and others. If we use the word CAN'T in any other challenge that we might want to accomplish in life, this will assure us that we wont succeed, so why should we be saying CAN'T when it comes to sin, which is the most important challenge/endeavour for any Christian!
As a Christian living in sin and stating that we cant stop sinning how do we reconcile many bible verses including some of these.
1 John 3:6, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:24, Romans 6:6
I understand that Paul and the other apostles struggled with sin, but we really don't know if they eventually became sin free. They may have, and I tend to believe that they all did, and we know they gave up everything for Christ including their lives. My point is, and you may or may not agree, I believe we don't help ourselves or others by continually saying we Can't overcome sin. This is a defeatist mindset, and lulls us into a conscience acceptance of a certain level of sin in our lives.
My goal in life is to work toward being sin free. In conjunction with the Holy Spirit I have made progress toward this goal. I have finally learned to really fear God, and listen to Him, and Christ. I also used to believe in my heart that as a human I would always be a sinner, I don't believe that anymore, thanks to the hard lessons and conviction by the Holy Spirit.
GBU
As an encouragement to you,
In Rom 6 Holy Spirit describes the certainty of God expectation of not continuing in sin & reveals the working of Grace as the divine power to accomplish the command. Peter says, God gives His Grace to the humble, meekness of heart, lowliness of mind is the pathway to receiving the power of Grace that we desperately need & it is Merciful kindness of God who will work this within us if we acknowledge the Truth about ourselves concerning growing in godliness, Jesus says, "without me you can do nothing". A love for God must be cutivated, for faith worketh by love & Gal 3:2 so obedience to the hearing of the Word of God "Grace" in our hearts we receive ever increasing measures of His Spirit, this is the faith that purifies the heart & will eventually be held in a pure conscience in the working out of our perfect salvation.
In Rom 7 Holy Spirit reveals the interworking of Paul struggles, now that He found himself without the righteousness of the law, now having to die to this self efforts, what a struggle he had. At the end of 7 Holy Spirit starts to open to us, the Righteousness that is by faith, the hearing of the Word of God in the heart. the Grace of God that appears to all mankind bringing salvation Rom 7:25 picking up the Cross & denying the motions of the carnal minded flesh. Rom 8:2 reveals His Grace is the Law, & goes on to declare Rom 8:14 Revealing 1John 3:6, abiding in His Grace/Spirit/Light/Cross. For the Spirit of God will never lead us into sin. As we continue in the exercise of Grace, putting Christ on, 2Cor 4:6 we're in the working of Titus 3:5 1Pet 1:2 unto the new creature, Col 3:10 where 2Cor 5:17. Rom 8:29 reveals this sonship, the divine nature implanted being Rom 8:15-17 & in Him there is no sin or 1John 1:5,6 we're sinless
All a free gift from our Father, yet must be appropriated by Faith, God causing us to will do of His good pleasure, for His own Name sake. Ezekiel 36:21-23 Isa 55:3
Continue in His Love
Thank you for your response, your words of encouragement mean a lot to me, as well all the relevant scripture regarding worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, and overcoming sin. I agree with all, and if we our honest with ourselves and take the time to evaluate our true walk with Christ we should be conforming to the scripture you mentioned such as 2 Corinthians 5:17 and 1 John 1:5-6 and if born again should have a mind like Christ 1 Corinthians 2:16
Scripture tells us we can have a mind like Christ! Not conformed to this world, but have renewed minds, and prove what is good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God Romans 12:2 Sinning is not acceptable to God, and for Christians to maintain the steady drum beat that they can't stop sinning is unbelievable per all of the scripture telling us that we are required STOP sinning, even including Jesus telling us that with Faith nothing is impossible for us! Matt 17:20
We are supposed to be as HOLY as Jesus and walk like him.Through the Spirit of God we CAN stop sinning. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:6 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 12:50 The Bible emphasises several times that we are supposed to be holy:Ye shall be holy: for I theLordyour God am holy. Leviticus 19:2
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48 Frankie, I think we can both agree that being perfect is without sin. But the multitude of worldly Christains say they can't ever be perfect and will always be sinners in this life - so they are saying Jesus/God is lying in Matt 5:48 and they are not accepting this Truth!
GBU
1Pet 4:1
we must be still in our mortal flesh, to suffer in the flesh, & to cease from sin
its the working of Grace / Cross in denying ungodliness & worldly lust that the carnal minded, which is in enmity against God that must be crucify & the learning of righteousness is the suffering described here,
As we continue in well doing, ever increasing in the measure of His Spirit
we come to Psalms 40:8
I spoke to Chris once about this, but it's worth saying it again, my present measure is in the state of man before he fell, yet still capable of falling, & I have ! I found that in humility, 'Truth in the inward parts" & confessing the least motions of His convictions within my conscience is the key to growing in Grace. I learn to love it when He nails me, its His judgment of lovingkindness drawing me closer to Him, instilling in me the fear of the Lord & by continuing in this state of brokeness I receive strenght to overcome all the wiles of the devil, thus far 1 Thessalonians 5:24
What God requires is that we walk according to the Truth that we know, as we abide in it, it cleanses us through the continuing exercising of the Grace received, once we mature in that present measure, God gives the increase & the process of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & Sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus within us increases, until that final day of Luke 3:16,17 refer to Rom 6:3-5 2Pet 1:19 "not I, but Christ
Folks, awake to Righteousness & Christ will give you Life
with all that be open on the subject, those who willful choose not to believe, will have no excuse when they stand before a Holy Holy Holy God to give an account of the Light that's has been reveal to them, folks please consider.
Another thought, in light of the whole of Scriptures, only the devil influnence upon mankind would plead to remain in unbelief & sin, this doctrine come only from Rev 17:5
Just as you suggested, we ARE working with the Holy Spirit to resist sinning. Is this where you are in your walk with the LORD at this time? If so, we are both in the same way with regards to overcoming sin. I do know that when we die we will never sin again. In the mean time, we do fight against our sinful nature, making steady our course to live godly lives.
You asked, How can we live godly lives and still keep on sinning?
Are you intimating that only those who are living in a continuously sinless life are living godly lives?
Paul does tell us to live godly lives and to walk by the Spirit and to fight against the sinful nature (the flesh). But if we have reached sinless perfection, then our sinful nature is no longer in us. This is not the case. We die and with that death, only then will our sinful nature die.
If we could live in this life in sinless perfection, then we have no need to be resurrected from the dead, because we would live forever having already put on incorruptibility, immortality, etc. There would be no need for us to die if we have reached sinless perfection. But this is never so for any believer in this life.
Our responsibility is to walk in the Spirit as much as we are able to each day. We are to desire to not sin and to seek to obey God. We are to continue to resist temptation each day. It will stick with what I have written that we are to live a godly life. And when we do sin, we are to confess that we have sinned and know that we are forgiven and made clean once again. We start over again afresh and we glory in knowing that it is the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us when we are converted, not our own that earns us anything before God.
Those of us that say we still are sinful though converted are not ones who believe nor suggest that we should give up fighting against sin, or that our sinfulness is insignificant. We take sin seriously like you do. We encourage everyone to work at resisting sin.
You said we ARE working with the Holy Spirit:
We ARE NOT working WITH the Holy Spirit.
We are a POT, a pot does nothing, it's made to HOLD something, we; a pot, hold the SPIRIT, the SPIRIT gives the POT LIFE, the Spirit does ALL THE WORK, the pot only does what the SPIRIT CAUSES it to DO. YOU DIED on the cross: a NEW CREATION arose, the BODY of CHRIST.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I WILL put my Spirit IN YOU, and CAUSE YOU to WALK in my statutes and to KEEP my judgements and DO THEM.
Psalms 145:10 ALL THY WORKS shall praise thee ......
Psalms 139:14 ..... I am fearfully and wonderfully made (a NEW CREATION): marvellous are THY WORKS .....
Psalms 104:30 ....the SENDEST FORTH thy SPIRIT, they are CREATED (anew), thou renewest the face of the earth.
The gospel of the RESURRECTION has been lost to the traditions of man.
And God shined light in to DARKNESS (the pots of the earth) and they COMPREHENDED it not.
God Bless YOU!
Thank you for replying to me. I disagree with you in what you've posted in response to me. We are beings with free agency. We do not lose this when we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. But our will is sanctified by Him. Beyond this statement, I do not wish to go further with you as we are not in harmony on this and on other matters you've written about.
Have a good day. We are God's children and we are growing up into Christ more and more in the time we are given in this life. He does not need to refine Himself in us. He does not change, but we do, thus giving evidence that we are not just a pot, but a being made to become compatible with God through Christ.
Thanks for your response regarding our struggle with sin. You asked the following: Are you intimating that only those who are living in a continuously sinless life are living godly lives? I will answer by stating: Here is scripture intimating that only those who are living sinless lives are living Godly lives.
1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
2 Corinthians 5:15 "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."
How do you reconcile the above scripture?
You asked where I'm at in my current walk with the Lord. I'm struggling as you, and apostle Paul, but I finally feel that now I am making progress toward my goal of being sanctified and sin free in this life. The Spirit has convicted me that I should stop using that old worn out excuse that "we can't stop sinning" as being acceptable anymore. I have no choice now but to accept this, and pick up my cross, and reject this world and the lust filled things of this world. I'm praying a lot more, (If we are praying we can't be sinning) focusing on God's/Jesus words throughout my day, and the Spirit is filling me with positive thoughts and healing my mind and body. I'm so blessed Gigi, I really want to help others make progress in achieving the love/sanctification in this life that Christ promises to us if we have Faith as big as a mustard seed!
GBU
We need our Lord as our Savior every moment of our lives. not just at conversion. He is what keeps us alive, instead of dying physically at the point of sin. He stays the wrath of God and the condemnation of sin from us because He took our wrath for us on the cross. This is true of every person elected to salvation beginning with Adam and Eve. Otherwise, they would have died instantly when they sinned just once. Christ is our refuge every moment. He keeps us. The Father can only accept us and bring us to Himself through Jesus. Our sin is so offensive to Him and that even one sin would offend Him forever. there would never be any mercy or grace supplied to man if Jesus had not become human to be our sacrifice, substitute, ransom, propitiation, and wrath receptacle for even one sin. So, every moment of our lives, the corruption that is in us is due to the sinful nature that infects and influences all of our being. So, every moment, we need a Savior to be the righteousness God accepts on our behalf. Our righteousness is never perfect enough to be considered to have reached sinless perfection.
But I never would advocate a defeatist attitude that gives in to sin because of innate sinfulness that remains after conversion. Nor would I advocate antinomianism that teaches that since we are under grace, we can sin all we want because all of our sins are forgiven-past, present, and future. Nor would I advocate a legalism that proscribes all that we need to do to be sinless. The Pharisees thought that their self-proscribed righteous deeds could make them perfect and acceptable to God.
I hope you have a good day, Bro Dan. We can talk more on another topic, but it is ok to me if you wish to respond back to me on this topic.
I do not hold to the doctrine of sinless perfection in this life. I believe it is an error and that those who claim to have attained it are sinning due to pride and that the imagination of their mind is faulty and therefore they are not perfect in every way as Jesus was and is. Also, this doctrine is a stumbling block to those who believe this doctrine and wish to attain to sinless perfection and have not. They will feel defeated in their walk with God instead of uplifted knowing that the Holy Spirit is our helper, but not our "doer" in utilizing our will to obey God in EVERY way possible. One who has attained sinless perfection would have a perfect body that cannot die, get sick, or deteriorate. One who has attained sinless perfection would never make any mental error or act in any way that would be deemed a "mistake". One's judgements would always be correct in every circumstance and one would no longer need to learn anything new because one's mind would be perfect in the knowledge God wants us to have.
Sinless perfection involves so much more than simply not committing outward sins. For these reasons, I cannot embrace it as a true doctrine. Now that I know that you believe this doctrine, I do not think that it is fruitful to continue to discuss it between us because I will not have a change of belief on this matter.
Bro Dan. We all should be desiring and using all that comes to us from being regenerated to serve God in truth and in obedience. Jesus never had a moment that was not focused on doing the will of the Father and also in not being completely abandoned to the Father in love. Could any person honestly say that they have "attained" to this measure of sinless perfection?
I do not think so.
But, in regards to using the word "can't", I use this word because I know that I possess the sinful nature at all times until my dying moment. This nature corrupts me, body, soul, and spirit. I daily fight to overcome it....cont.
All men DIED (take up your cross and follow me in death), a NEW CREATION arose, the BODY of Christ, the bride, Christ's wife: and Christ being the HEAD of the BODY.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is BORN (new birth, being RAISED as the body of Christ, and Christ as the head of that body) doth not commit sin, BECAUSE his SEED (the word of God, truth, life) remaineth IN HIM (this mystery, Christ IN YOU), and he CANNOT SIN
WHY can't we sin: BECAUSE
Ezekiel 36:27 And I WILL put my SPIRIT (the Spirit that raised Christ) IN YOU, and I WILL CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and TO KEEP my judgements and DO THEM.
It's not our works (in that day they will say, did WE NOT): we do nothing it's all the WORKS OF GOD.
Revelation 2:26 .... and KEEPS my WORKS .....
Isaiah 26:10 ....TOGETHER (as ONE), with my DEAD BODY shall they ARISE .....
Revelation 21:5 ..... I MAKE all things NEW ......
John 17:22 And the GLORY that thou GAVEST ME, I have given them, that as WE ARE ONE, that may be ONE .
Christ was RAISED with eternal (IMMORTAL) LIFE, we are joint-heirs of that eternal LIFE
1 Timothy 6:16 ... Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light .....
1 Corinthians 15:53 ....this mortal MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY ....
1 Corinthians 15:38 ... and to every SEED ..... HIS OWN BODY ......
1 Corinthians 12:27 ..... ye are the BODY of CHRIST ......
God BLESS YOU!
God BLESS YOU!
1 John 3:9, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
The above is an example of a misunderstanding that may occur when a scripture is not translated precisely. Well there is an excuse here since in this case there isn't a respective English term for the grk verb "amartano". It is translated "commit sin" but unlike the Engl. the grk indicates a continuous action, a continuous situation. This means that what the verse says is that whosoever is born of God does not keep sinning or living a sinful life because the seed/Word of God lives inside him. This doesn't mean that he never sins but he never lives a sinful life any more.
Similarly 1 John 3:6, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." That "sinneth not" is not right, it shpuld be "sining not", a continuous condition.
See 1 John 1:8-9, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Blessings