Bible Discussion Thread

Concerning Women's Head Coverings 1 Corinthians 11:2-16

Note the following verses.

11:5-- "but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved."

11:6-- "For if a woman will not cover herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should keep it covered.

11:7-- "For a man ought not to cover his head . . ."

11:10-- "For this reason a woman ought to have [a symbol of] authority on her head"

11:13-- "Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?"

11:15-- "but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory . . ."

Several points can be made here.

(1) If 'covering' = 'hair,' then all men should shave their heads or go bald because the men are to have their heads uncovered.

(2) If 'covering' = 'long hair,' then v 6 seems to suggest a tautology: "if a woman will not wear long hair, then she should cut off her hair." But this in no way advances the argument.

(3) The argument caves in by its own subtlety. To see 'hair' = 'head covering' means that one has to go through several exegetical hoops.In short, it hardly appears to be the plain meaning of the text.

(4) Verses 10 and 15 would have to be saying the same thing if long hair is the same as a head covering. But this can hardly be the case. In v 10, a woman is required to wear a 'symbol of authority.' Such a symbol represents her submission, not her glory.

To argue, then, that long hair is the woman's head covering seems to miss the very point of the function of the head covering and of the long hair: one shows her submission while the other shows her glory.Both of these are contrasted with an uncovered head while praying or prophesying, or a shaved head at any time: such would speak of the woman's humiliation and shame.

In my congregation , all ladies cover their heads during congregational services , including our weekly Bible class , during which women are not permitted to speak . Once the meeting has been officially closed by a brother saying the closing prayer , ladies remove their headscarves and free discussion of biblical matters , between men and women is permitted . We cannot ignore the fact that many women know much more about the Bible than some men . Personally , I'm very glad that I am not able to speak during congregational meetings . So many times I have heard a brother say erroneous things , if I had been able to correct him publicly I might have been tempted to do so and for sure I would have regretted doing so afterwards . I would hate to shame any brother or sister , regarding their lack of biblical understanding , publicly . I would never forgive myself , so I am in fact grateful , yes I said and mean grateful , that the option and opertunity to do so , is removed from me ! I do not trust myself to keep my mouth shut :) . So our congregation rules on this matter keep me from shaming any brother , who doesn't know what he is talking about , publicly . I am protected from sinning against him and he is protected from me shaming him publicly . I think that's a good thing . I can always have a quiet , respectful word with him later in private or better still , speak to an understanding brother , explain my thoughts and feelings to him and get him to mention it to the brother who may have made a mistake . We must not shame each other publicly , men or women it doesn't make a difference .

Greetings Sister Jema,

First I will try to respond in love and try to hear what I am trying to share with you. We live in a post-feminist society which has a very great influence upon Christian women AND MEN no matter how spiritual they may be. It is difficult for MEN and WOMEN not to be influenced by it since they are surrounded by it 365 days and year. Feminist ideology is taught in schools...a man taking the lead in the house is seen as wrong and sexist.

>In my congregation, all ladies cover their heads during congregational services, including our weekly Bible class, during which >women are not permitted to speak.

First, you are very fortunate to be in such a church as it is in the [extreme] to the uttermost minority!

1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

>We cannot ignore the fact that many women know much more about the Bible than some men

Yet, God is all-knowing foresaw all this but still his divine order for men and women remains?

>Personally , I'm very glad that I am not able to speak during congregational meetings. So many times I have heard a brother >say erroneous things, if I had been able to correct him publicly...

Yes, but it isn't your place to do so, especially in the house of God. Other men who do know will correct him.

>I can always have a quiet, respectful word with him later in private or better still, speak to an understanding brother...

A much better way to go about it!

You are VERY fortunate to be in such a church.

1 Peter 4:17 (KJV) 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgement starts in the house of God and so many of our churches are out of order that it is no wonder why!

I have no problem being subject to my husband or the male elders in my congregation for Christ's sake . For any man to think that a women is inferior to a man just because she is a woman , is very offensive to most women . I choose to be subject to my husband and male elders because it is what Christ requests me to do , not because I am , of feel , inferior to , any man . What do you think about a husband ( a Christian ) who does something very wrong and demands that his wife (also a Christian ) keep silence about it for his sake ? As we are all responsible for our sins and will each of us , man or woman , have to give account of ourselves to Christ , and bear our individual punishments , that wife will be punished for obeying her husband . If the husband is the head of the wife and the husband commits a grievous sin , does his sin rest on her also ? Should she not , go over his head and answer first and foremost to her saviour rather than her husband ? Many years ago in my congregation , a married sister would come to our services , with her husband , and very often a black eye or bruise on her face . None of the brethren ever spoke to her or her husband about this . The husband never allowed her to be alone with anyone that she might talk to about this . This miserable situatuation continued for years . It distressed every sister in the congregation and made them , us , think so much less of our elders who permitted this without ever trying to sort it out . Men are imperfect . Christ is not . I will have to give Christ ( not a man ) an account of myself . He , Christ will judge me , not a man . If it comes to a choice between either obeying Christ , or any man , I know what I will do .

Women always like to bring up the exceptions. In those examples that you brought up the man isn't even a real Christian, because a true Christian who has been redeemed by the Holy Spirit would not do such. When we abide in the Christian doctrine, we give proof of the reality of our faith. Ye will know them by their fruit Matthew 7:15-20

What I find shocking is that you don't realize that.

I'm also always amazed by the amount of pushback this topic gets from both men and women in Christendom...

Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves" 2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV) 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

What makes you think that I didn't realize that that husband who was openly beating his wife wasn't a true Christian ? The disappointing aspect of this episode is that none of the other brethren did anything to help this poor sister . They sat in the same congregation as her and her husband year after year , looking at her bruises and doing nothing . The situation came to an abrupt end when he , went to bed one night and didn't wake up the next morning . The sense of relief among our congregation was enormous . Sadly this whole episode changed the way many of us sisters felt about our brethren who had done nothing at all , for years , to help this poor sister . Thankfully God Himself intervened where they refused to .

Then it was nonsensical to bring it even up to help support your original position regarding wives submitting to their husbands. If he wasn't saved then it doesn't even apply to the subject at hand. It was presented as he was saved and beating his wife in a sense impugning the notion of Christian wives submitting to husbands. Then you brought up another exception a husband commanding his wife to sin. Again a true man of God is not going to do any of these things.

I'm also always amazed by the amount of pushback this topic gets from both men and women in Christendom...

Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves" 2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV) 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Hello Jema

In my congregation women only put their cover on when they want to pray during praying time, or during the preaching if they wish to pray with their mind but not during the whole congregation if they don't wish so. The scripture clearly says to be covered only when praying or prophesying. Also woman can not be Pastors, Elders, Deacons, Ministers. During Bible classes which are not considered formal congregations all women participate together with the men.

And you are right, "We must not shame each other publicly, men or women it doesn't make a difference."

GBU