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I discussed the other day about the Rosh Hashanah last trump concept that made it plausible that the Rapture would be this weekend. Clearly it went by again with no Rapture.
When we look at various events in scripture; we see the surprise element. Surely those watchmen who are asleep or not preparing others will be surprised when He comes (as many will be watching on high holidays such as this and Pentecost).
( Luke 12:35-40). The enemy camp is taken easiest this way in a successful ambush. Watching and waiting with patience is more than a one or two day spectator sport. It does seem that SOME warning comes before the bridegroom arrives ( Matt. 25:6); although some say this is deliverance perhaps before the second coming or even the midpoint of the Tribulation for the Jews or those on earth at that time. In any event; the idea that the Lord delays His coming brings laziness and sin ( Matthew 24:48-51) and results it appears becoming a statistic stuck in the Tribulation at best in verse 51 if not lost forever.
I am a Pre Trib person because it seems clear to me DECADES ago the enemy could have taken over the whole world and certainly we are on "borrowed time" today; the "restrainer" in 2 Thess. 2:6 has to be the Spirit working through the church.
The fact that only a few are really living fully surrendered today shows why in large part the salt and light has reduced to allow the level of ecil we see widespread today. This is in the world as expected but in the Laodicean church that typifies Western churches and that of many other countries in the world today.
Let us continue to warn others to flee the wrath to come ( Luke 3:7); whether it be imminent unexpected death or being stuck in the Tribulation. Remember that Christ comes as a thief to take His precious treasure ( 1 Thess. 5:2; Malachi 3:17). A thief such as this doesn't care about the profane; just the sacred objects of His affection.
If pretrib believers be correct, then those of us that believe Jesus returns in the clouds "after"the tribulation..it would be a nice surprise. However, should post trib believers be correct, then pretrib believers will be caught off guard, possibly being deceived by the anti christ, and/ or being unprepared, will suffer great consequence.
Read Matthew 24. And specifically verses 29-30. These are Jesus' very words when asked about the end times. He specifically says that AFTER the tribulation the sun and moon are darkened and that the son of man appears coming in the clouds.
No where does the Bible say that the elect (believers or the saved) will not suffer tribulation. In fact it tells us that the elect WILL suffer tribulation verse 9. Do not mistake or confuse "tribulation"with "Gods wrath". They are not the same.
Jimbob explains it well. And I agree pretrib is one of the greatest deceptions of our times.
There are two truly important subjects that many people get wrong on this site, and the pre-tribulation rapture is one of them Richard. I don't mean to offend here but there are no scriptures to support Jesus Christ Coming in the clouds (before) the tribulation.
Noone should ever believe in something this important because it's what they've been taught from other men, but sadly many today are doing just that.
Would you mind please showing us using scripture the reason you believe Jesus comes back in the clouds (before) the tribulation period?
Please don't just read this but think about this. The Truth matters always, but in this case, if there is no rapture (before) the tribulation many pre-trib rapture believers would be deceived by the anti-christ when he sits in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God, he will shew great signs and wonders, in another verse it says with all power and signs and lying wonders. This will be a time of great DECEPTION!
Many people will be deceived by him and believe he is Jesus Christ.
This is a very important part of scripture to see Truth before its to late. And by the looks of things in this world right now, that's going to be really soon.
Christ has already come the second time, as a thief in the night, you don't see the thief?
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered for the SINS of many, and to those who look for him he shall APPEAR THE SECOND TIME without SIN unto SALVATION.
John 16:7 For I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter WILL NOT COME unto you, but if I depart, I will sent him to you.
John 15:26 ....but when the Comforter IS COME ....... even the SPIRIT of TRUTH ..... he will testify of me ......
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery ..... Christ ON YOU ......
Salvation in this case would be salvation of the body; new and incorruptible. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit who is with us UNTIL the end of the age ( Matt. 28:20).
I do understand , that when we humans , look for the Truth and find it , in the Bible , when we look for our God and find Him and accept the Truth , that Christ is revealed to us and lives in our hearts , I get that totally . I understand that He knocks and we open and enter and He comes into our hearts , is this really the 'second coming '? Do you not believe that Christ is going to return to earth , physically and be the Head of God's Kingdom on Earth and destroy all the kingdoms of men forever ? Please , tell me what you believe about the physical return of Christ to earth to be King in the New Jerusalem ? I so want to hear what you have to say about this please . My reason for living is that Christ is going to rend the clouds and save us all from ourselves and each other and cleanse the earth .
all creation is judged now, today: tomorrow; tomorrow will become today, world without end. judgement is what god has said. his word will not return unto him void.
judgement is now, today, upon the house of the christ; you, me and everyone on this forum; is that house, and there is only one house, the lord god almighty and the lamb: some have not yet come to that truth, but there is a today coming when they shall be overcome by judgement.
you are baptised into the name of jesus christ, resurrected as one, join-heirs, a husband and his bride.
john 17:22 and the glory that thou hast given me, i have given them, that as we are one, they may be one in us.
judgement is now, do you believe what god has said.
philippians 1:29 for it is given to you on the behalf of christ ...... to believe......
God's Blessings on you, TODAY, this day of our Lord.
You ask what I SEE (by the GRACE of our Lord) concerning God's kingdom, now on EARTH, and forever to be on EARTH.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, God himself that formed the earth and made it, he hath establish it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be INHABITED: I am the Lord, and none else.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, Oh Daniel, seal up the words, even unto the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, AND KNOWLEDGE (of the POWER of God) SHALL BE INCREASED.
The POWER of the WORKS of CHRIST'S CROSS has been lost to the doctrines of man.
Paul said: when I am gone grievious wolves shall come in and destroy the flock.
For about 2000 years now God's people (a remnant) have been isolated in small flocks, each being GIVEN small amounts of truth.
God uses evil for GOOD, and I do BELIEVE the world wide web is EVIL, BUT by the increase of knowledge to have world wide communication, God's remnant is being brought together to CONFESS THEIR SINS TO EACH OTHER.
Not the SINS of the FLESH, they DIED on the CROSS, OUR SIN OF UNBELIEF, the POWER given us by the RESURRECTION of Christ. The POWER of JUDGEMENT, to first judge ourselves, then the WORLD.
Our beggerally little flock HAS NOT been eating enough FOOD, only the CRUMBS from a table that is all YOURS.
There is NOTHING to be ADDED, nor can anything be TAKEN AWAY, WE are a FINISHED CREATION, all by the RESURRECTION of CHRIST.
Dear Jema: Judging by all the criticism it seems I have hit a nerve with many people. As for your question; if I didn't believe in the literal physical return of Christ then I'd be a heretic; or what is known as a "full Preterist." It seems one of my responses is indicating that Christ has already returned. I'll leave it up to the forum here as to my opinion on the subject-as for that i feel the line has to be drawn as to what is clearly spurious doctrine; for 2 Thessalonians 2:2 makes it clear this has not happened. As to the Rapture and such I would never disfellowship over that issue unless such contention came up when someone asks my opinion that I feel the Lord's will won't be done in communicating His Word.
I hope you have noticed that the Word is something and really the only thing that I constantly quote. Any reasonable conversation relies on it. I have discussed the subject of the Rapture before with numerous references from the New and Old Testament; with the basic principle being that God delivers from as well as through certain things. Such is the typology of Enoch and Elijah who were translated as opposed to Lot who escaped just as judgment came. My basic premise is that it is one thing to die as martyrs now and we CERTAINLY need to be cognizant of that fact as something such as the brave girl who was martyred at Sandy Run that it is coming here. The only thing different in the Tribulation is how demonic entities and God's judgments (which ARE immediately upon opening the Seal Judgments which only CHRIST HIMSELF can open) manifest. And as I've stated before the gates of hell will not prevail against the church at present but the saints WILL be overcome in the Tribulation. I will let you look up the verses as I have quoted them often. The worst time in human history ( Matthew 24:21) is something we haven't seen yet when Satan is allowed temporary control over the whole earth; God has to shorten the days or no one survives ( Mark 13:20).
Dear Richard , I'm so sorry ! I must have sent my question to you by mistake ! Please forgive me ! I appreciate your answer but my question wasn't for you , I apologise again :) .
Not a big deal; I thought mentioning the Second Coming I was referring to the Rapture which in reality is the beginning of the Second Coming. When the sign of the Son of Man appears may be around the sixth seal when Jesus is recognized as beginning judgments on earth (which again bolsters my theory). There are verses talking about Christ's victory before the bowl judgments as that basically is when there is no more holding back and the incense of the prayers of the saints take no effect and thus we (I assume it is the resurrected saints) can't get in there to pray anymore and of course no one on earth can pray for more delay as well.
The comments remind me of Matthew 24:49 as to fellowservants that are trying to get the message across about the King coming soon; and the bride being snatched. Zephaniah 2:3 is one of those O.T. nuggets about being delivered before wrath begins. I don't argue about whether it is man's wrath; Satan's or Gods anyway since it is all under God's judgment. What is different is that once the Trib. starts things are all going to happen in sequence all 21 judgments PLUS what the 2 Prophets decide to dish out. Another argument is that Pretribbers left behind will fall for Antichrist; and I may agree partially that those who are NOT praying to escape ALL things to come to pass ( Luke 21:36; see also Rev. 3:10) may either not be real believers or the rapture is a reward issue; all of God's children are saved but some need their garments washed through martyrdom (that is my contention if they have garments in the first place they must be saved; whether or not they are new Trib saints or ones stained that are left behind such as with Zechariah 8:3. However we are to buy oil or be tried as gold in the fire may mean refinement in the Tribulation; but since that is unpopular I won't force the issue and be open to all believers being raptured.
Post Tribbers can be fooled if they think the Beast is making the world ready for Christ also.
only a few are living fully surrendered?.. you don't know this to be true.. do you recall what God said to Elijah?.. go read it, I have reserved unto me.................. how many? that have not bowed a knee to baal.. there is no pre trib ""rapture".. go study pal, forget what the evangelical political rhetoric has caused you to misunderstand. Peace and love in Christ.
I will mention that the remnant was 7000 out of all the Jews at that time. We see that principle with only Joshua and Caleb out of the whole generation making it into the Promised Land; Moses of course was saved but his behavior at one time kept him out.
We see also the principle of some receiving the crown or crowns for specific acts when on earth. Let us face it not everyone runs for the prize; some make it into heaven as through the fire ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Christ Himself turned away some would be disciples who didn't want to count the cost. It is possible of course to amend our ways; Christ purges more to sanctify us. There are certainly variations as to how much fruit we have; 30 fold; 50 fold; 100 fold. We can just look around to see those who are undistracted and have their lives balanced; those who are on fire for Christ we should be discerning to recognize. We all struggle with sin there is no doubt; some who claim to be believers aren't even saved while others are in various levels of maturity.
Again not a point to argue about. God can use death in order to prematurely end a life (see 1 Corinthians 11:30) where MANY sleep because they have taken communion unworthily. There are also verses in Corinthians about the body in 1 Corinthians 5:5 where God allows someone to die or get near it to preserve the soul; in other words perhaps they would have been lost if this hadn't happened because they would go so deep in sin as to be reprobate; that is only a theory.
These verses should help clarify as to where many are; and that not everyone gains the same reward just as the other principle that some suffer more in hell (see Matthew 11:21).
I discussed the other day about the Rosh Hashanah last trump concept that made it plausible that the Rapture would be this weekend. Clearly it went by again with no Rapture.
When we look at various events in scripture; we see the surprise element. Surely those watchmen who are asleep or not preparing others will be surprised when He comes (as many will be watching on high holidays such as this and Pentecost).
( Luke 12:35-40). The enemy camp is taken easiest this way in a successful ambush. Watching and waiting with patience is more than a one or two day spectator sport. It does seem that SOME warning comes before the bridegroom arrives ( Matt. 25:6); although some say this is deliverance perhaps before the second coming or even the midpoint of the Tribulation for the Jews or those on earth at that time. In any event; the idea that the Lord delays His coming brings laziness and sin ( Matthew 24:48-51) and results it appears becoming a statistic stuck in the Tribulation at best in verse 51 if not lost forever.
I am a Pre Trib person because it seems clear to me DECADES ago the enemy could have taken over the whole world and certainly we are on "borrowed time" today; the "restrainer" in 2 Thess. 2:6 has to be the Spirit working through the church.
The fact that only a few are really living fully surrendered today shows why in large part the salt and light has reduced to allow the level of ecil we see widespread today. This is in the world as expected but in the Laodicean church that typifies Western churches and that of many other countries in the world today.
Let us continue to warn others to flee the wrath to come ( Luke 3:7); whether it be imminent unexpected death or being stuck in the Tribulation. Remember that Christ comes as a thief to take His precious treasure ( 1 Thess. 5:2; Malachi 3:17). A thief such as this doesn't care about the profane; just the sacred objects of His affection.
Agape.
If pretrib believers be correct, then those of us that believe Jesus returns in the clouds "after"the tribulation..it would be a nice surprise. However, should post trib believers be correct, then pretrib believers will be caught off guard, possibly being deceived by the anti christ, and/ or being unprepared, will suffer great consequence.
Read Matthew 24. And specifically verses 29-30. These are Jesus' very words when asked about the end times. He specifically says that AFTER the tribulation the sun and moon are darkened and that the son of man appears coming in the clouds.
No where does the Bible say that the elect (believers or the saved) will not suffer tribulation. In fact it tells us that the elect WILL suffer tribulation verse 9. Do not mistake or confuse "tribulation"with "Gods wrath". They are not the same.
Jimbob explains it well. And I agree pretrib is one of the greatest deceptions of our times.
Gods Word is True, Jesus is the Truth
There are two truly important subjects that many people get wrong on this site, and the pre-tribulation rapture is one of them Richard. I don't mean to offend here but there are no scriptures to support Jesus Christ Coming in the clouds (before) the tribulation.
Noone should ever believe in something this important because it's what they've been taught from other men, but sadly many today are doing just that.
Would you mind please showing us using scripture the reason you believe Jesus comes back in the clouds (before) the tribulation period?
Please don't just read this but think about this. The Truth matters always, but in this case, if there is no rapture (before) the tribulation many pre-trib rapture believers would be deceived by the anti-christ when he sits in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God, he will shew great signs and wonders, in another verse it says with all power and signs and lying wonders. This will be a time of great DECEPTION!
Many people will be deceived by him and believe he is Jesus Christ.
This is a very important part of scripture to see Truth before its to late. And by the looks of things in this world right now, that's going to be really soon.
Blessings to you Richard.
Christ has already come the second time, as a thief in the night, you don't see the thief?
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered for the SINS of many, and to those who look for him he shall APPEAR THE SECOND TIME without SIN unto SALVATION.
John 16:7 For I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter WILL NOT COME unto you, but if I depart, I will sent him to you.
John 15:26 ....but when the Comforter IS COME ....... even the SPIRIT of TRUTH ..... he will testify of me ......
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery ..... Christ ON YOU ......
God Bless YOU!
all creation is judged now, today: tomorrow; tomorrow will become today, world without end. judgement is what god has said. his word will not return unto him void.
judgement is now, today, upon the house of the christ; you, me and everyone on this forum; is that house, and there is only one house, the lord god almighty and the lamb: some have not yet come to that truth, but there is a today coming when they shall be overcome by judgement.
you are baptised into the name of jesus christ, resurrected as one, join-heirs, a husband and his bride.
john 17:22 and the glory that thou hast given me, i have given them, that as we are one, they may be one in us.
judgement is now, do you believe what god has said.
philippians 1:29 for it is given to you on the behalf of christ ...... to believe......
god bless you as we abound in the works of god.
God's Blessings on you, TODAY, this day of our Lord.
You ask what I SEE (by the GRACE of our Lord) concerning God's kingdom, now on EARTH, and forever to be on EARTH.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, God himself that formed the earth and made it, he hath establish it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be INHABITED: I am the Lord, and none else.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, Oh Daniel, seal up the words, even unto the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, AND KNOWLEDGE (of the POWER of God) SHALL BE INCREASED.
The POWER of the WORKS of CHRIST'S CROSS has been lost to the doctrines of man.
Paul said: when I am gone grievious wolves shall come in and destroy the flock.
For about 2000 years now God's people (a remnant) have been isolated in small flocks, each being GIVEN small amounts of truth.
God uses evil for GOOD, and I do BELIEVE the world wide web is EVIL, BUT by the increase of knowledge to have world wide communication, God's remnant is being brought together to CONFESS THEIR SINS TO EACH OTHER.
Not the SINS of the FLESH, they DIED on the CROSS, OUR SIN OF UNBELIEF, the POWER given us by the RESURRECTION of Christ. The POWER of JUDGEMENT, to first judge ourselves, then the WORLD.
Our beggerally little flock HAS NOT been eating enough FOOD, only the CRUMBS from a table that is all YOURS.
There is NOTHING to be ADDED, nor can anything be TAKEN AWAY, WE are a FINISHED CREATION, all by the RESURRECTION of CHRIST.
God BLESS YOU!
I hope you have noticed that the Word is something and really the only thing that I constantly quote. Any reasonable conversation relies on it. I have discussed the subject of the Rapture before with numerous references from the New and Old Testament; with the basic principle being that God delivers from as well as through certain things. Such is the typology of Enoch and Elijah who were translated as opposed to Lot who escaped just as judgment came. My basic premise is that it is one thing to die as martyrs now and we CERTAINLY need to be cognizant of that fact as something such as the brave girl who was martyred at Sandy Run that it is coming here. The only thing different in the Tribulation is how demonic entities and God's judgments (which ARE immediately upon opening the Seal Judgments which only CHRIST HIMSELF can open) manifest. And as I've stated before the gates of hell will not prevail against the church at present but the saints WILL be overcome in the Tribulation. I will let you look up the verses as I have quoted them often. The worst time in human history ( Matthew 24:21) is something we haven't seen yet when Satan is allowed temporary control over the whole earth; God has to shorten the days or no one survives ( Mark 13:20).
The comments remind me of Matthew 24:49 as to fellowservants that are trying to get the message across about the King coming soon; and the bride being snatched. Zephaniah 2:3 is one of those O.T. nuggets about being delivered before wrath begins. I don't argue about whether it is man's wrath; Satan's or Gods anyway since it is all under God's judgment. What is different is that once the Trib. starts things are all going to happen in sequence all 21 judgments PLUS what the 2 Prophets decide to dish out. Another argument is that Pretribbers left behind will fall for Antichrist; and I may agree partially that those who are NOT praying to escape ALL things to come to pass ( Luke 21:36; see also Rev. 3:10) may either not be real believers or the rapture is a reward issue; all of God's children are saved but some need their garments washed through martyrdom (that is my contention if they have garments in the first place they must be saved; whether or not they are new Trib saints or ones stained that are left behind such as with Zechariah 8:3. However we are to buy oil or be tried as gold in the fire may mean refinement in the Tribulation; but since that is unpopular I won't force the issue and be open to all believers being raptured.
Post Tribbers can be fooled if they think the Beast is making the world ready for Christ also.
I am going to be gone all day, I will respond to you when I get home tonight.
God Bless YOU!
We see also the principle of some receiving the crown or crowns for specific acts when on earth. Let us face it not everyone runs for the prize; some make it into heaven as through the fire ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Christ Himself turned away some would be disciples who didn't want to count the cost. It is possible of course to amend our ways; Christ purges more to sanctify us. There are certainly variations as to how much fruit we have; 30 fold; 50 fold; 100 fold. We can just look around to see those who are undistracted and have their lives balanced; those who are on fire for Christ we should be discerning to recognize. We all struggle with sin there is no doubt; some who claim to be believers aren't even saved while others are in various levels of maturity.
Again not a point to argue about. God can use death in order to prematurely end a life (see 1 Corinthians 11:30) where MANY sleep because they have taken communion unworthily. There are also verses in Corinthians about the body in 1 Corinthians 5:5 where God allows someone to die or get near it to preserve the soul; in other words perhaps they would have been lost if this hadn't happened because they would go so deep in sin as to be reprobate; that is only a theory.
These verses should help clarify as to where many are; and that not everyone gains the same reward just as the other principle that some suffer more in hell (see Matthew 11:21).
Agape; Rich P
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