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Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/lib/lsphp/session/lsphp80) in /home/kjv.site/public_html/Discussion-Thread/index.php on line 2 BIBLE DISCUSSION THREAD 221074
The Lord told Israel in Ezekiel 36:27 he will put his spirit within them, and cause them to walk in his statutes, and they shall keep his judgments, and do them.
This is also what he does for us Gentiles. If we all agree Israel is saved "or is to be saved" the same way we are then the Holyspirit that directs their walk is the same that directs ours.
If we agree we all sin and no one can present themselves perfect but yet you can forfeit your salvation, What percentage of your sins you have to repent from to be saved?
What percentage of sins you have to commit before you lose your salvation?
Ephesians 2:4-6 says "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
( He made us alive WITH CHRIST)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How long does that mercy last?
Does our imperfect nature forfeit God's mercy?
God's Commandments, statutes, and judgments are perfect!
The Holyspirit drives us to perform them perfectly.
However we stumble at the perfection in the Law and sin against it even in our imperfect minds.
Even the restraint from sin let's us know we are sinners in need of God's mercy.
Paul says, in Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
You can't do anything to gain salvation and you can't do anything to hold it.
If it's not the Holyspirit that is regenerating you then you are not saved even if you supposedly stopped sinning.
Salvation is a new life, one from above with a repentant heart.
Your walk testifies of this rebirth.
Salvation comes before Sanctification and Sanctification Is a continuing work of the Holyspirit.
I KNOW you believe we are saved by grace ALONE, everything is the WORKS of GOD.
May the spirit of truth add to your comments:
You said OUR PART is confess and believe.
IS IT NOT the ''works'' of CHRIST IN US that CAUSES us to believe.
Philippians 1:29 For it is given (GRACE) to us on the behalf of Christ --- TO BELIEVE ----
ALL is the WORKS of GOD.
The ""belief" by and of, the "faith" by and of, the "life" by and of ---JESUS CHRIST ---
We are just the BODY of CHRIST, the "heart" and "mind" in that body; you and I and everyone else, IS CHRIST
Christ; the firstborn, of many brethren, we are the FRUIT of the TESTOR.
Isaiah 14:29 and out of the ROOT of the serpent (man) shall come forth a cockatrice (a saviour of men) and his (the saviours) FRUIT shall be a FIERY FLYING SERPENT.
God BLESS YOU as the spirit of truth makes us all ONE in Christ.
This we must do for the rest of our lives, to live in repentance and obedience walking in the Spirit, not in this world. We must include these scriptures that show during our life and be sanctified one can fail, fall away whatever we want to call it, Heb. 3:12-131 John 1:72 Peter 2:20 we are told to keep ourselves Jude 21 If we hold fast the confidence, Heb. 3:6 If we faint not, Gal. 6:9 If ye continue in the faith, Col. 1:23 If ye do these things, 2 Peter 1:10, Paul said this about himself 1 Cor. 9:25-27.
Do we err when we say I was saved on whatever date when we should say my salvation started and I was justified made righteous, and I am now walking in the Spirit of God looking for the day I will be glorified when My Savior Jesus Christ returns and I will be like Him and as long as I breathe I will continue to walk in the Spirit of God as I am sanctified to be made perfect as My Lord Jesus is perfect? We must, every day be obedient and ask for forgiveness and guidance to keep going for the goal.
When are we saved is it when we accept Jesus as our Savior, if then do we overlook we must endure until the end. We must have the earnest/downpayment of the Spirit 2 Cor. 5:5, a downpayment for the final purchase when Jesus returns to claim His elect. We must know and realize that for whom the downpayment has been placed it must be intact when Jesus returns. We must endure until the end. Matt. 10:22Matt. 24:13John 6:27 As Abraham Heb. 6:13-16James 1:12
I wish I could explain this better; I feel I have come up short, but I feel those who believe when walking down the aisle and confess they believe in Jesus they have a nonrefundable ticket to eternity, that is wrong.
(According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,) through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.)
Paul lists what's added in 2 Peter 1:5-7. "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge.
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness.
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
Verse 8!
"FOR IF THESE THINGS BE IN YOU", and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The contrary to "these things being in you" is seen in is verse 9.
BUT HE THAT LACKETH THESE THINGS IS BLIND, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
In verse 10 Paul is telling us to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
He is saying if according to Christ divine power hath he given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, and whereby we are given exceeding great and precious promises and by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " Make your calling and election sure: for "IF YOU ARE DOING THESE THINGS", ye shall never fall.
Hebrews 6:13-16.
When God performed this covenant with Abraham, he put Abraham to sleep. IT WAS UNCONDITIONAL!
Genesis 15:1-12.
Matthew 24:13.
This is to take place during the great tribulation period.
However, I'm not going to get into that on this thread.
This is how I interpret those verses, perhaps some can help and improve on this.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We both agree on the verse above, salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and is a gift not of ourselves, we cannot earn our salvation. We are also ordained that we should walk in good works.
This is not a discussion on how we are saved it is about whether when we accept Jesus as our savior and are baptized, are we saved forever. Are all our sins ever we do, forgiven at that point? Or can we fall from God's grace and forfeit our salvation? One thought, do we have free will, if so, God being a sovereign God would leave it up to man to choose to accept or reject His word, His offer, and His gift. So, if a man can choose, can he later as a Christian choose to forsake Christ thereby abandoning his salvation and losing the gift of eternal life? Or is it all predestined? If so, why would there be a judgment?
What are God's terms? (Isn't that a contradictory statement? Isn't it to believe in him whom he sent?) That is true. To some that is easy, all they must do is believe, they have their ticket. Someone then asks them do they believe in God and what Jesus did, all they must do is say yes, I believe. Is it just to believe that is contradictory, is this a half-truth, like you will not surely die? Gen. 3:4-5.
If we say when someone walks away or falls back into sin they were never saved to begin with. If we do is that judging? Is there any way for us to know what is in the heart of another man or woman? 1 Cor. 2:11. If we say they were never saved is that just to support a doctrine? I have been studying this is the reason for the delay. I hope I can show my understanding of this long-debated subject.
What does it mean to believe? What is the evidence that we believe? As Paul said, it is like running a race, when we start this race, we believe we are going to finish, and with God's Spirit we have all the determination and motivation we are not only going to finish this race we are going to win this race.
We are saved! We are being saved! We shall be saved! When we start, are all our sins forgiven, our past, present, and our future sins the moment we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and are baptized? Is our salvation guaranteed and we cannot lose it or fall out of grace regardless?
We are saved. Eph. 2:5 When we accept the gospel and are baptized our sins are blotted out, Isaiah 44:22Acts 3:19 and we become a child/son/daughter of God, John 1:12 we are justified, made righteous by the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and now we begin a relationship through God's Spirit, and God and Jesus abide in us, 2 John 1:9. This is the start of the race, the beginning of our salvation.
We are being saved. Philippians 1:6 Hearing the Word one believes and is baptized into Christ they are made clean (justification) the work of grace, and the Lord will continue working in us until He returns if we abide in Him John 15:3-5. How does God complete his good work in us? Testing James 1:2-4, chastising Heb. 12:6-7 Our relationship. If we abide in Him, Jesus, and God abides in us. The branches bear the fruit of the vine, the vine produces the fruit not us/branch, sanctification. We are running the race Philippians 2:12
We shall be saved. Redemption and glorification. Our full salvation comes at the end, when Jesus returns. Luke 21:28 "being now justified" We started the race. We are being saved, "being reconciled" we are running the race, 2 Cor. 5:18. We shall be saved at the end of the race. Romans 13:11.
Each believer is personally responsible for living in obedience to Christ's commands. 1 Timothy 4:16. Can we come up short, Hebrews 4:1. Some of the natural branches of the house of Israel were broken off for unbelief so the people of the nations who believe and are justified are grafted in. Believers/saved can be cut off if they do not continue in his goodness/grace. Romans 11:15-24.
Much of your post I agree, it is about becoming saved and our relationship with Jesus, and if we continue to abide in Him those scriptures apply. Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. Peter and the disciples at this time were still observing the old law. We see years later they were still debating it in Acts 15.
1 Cor. 9:27 If we look at the wording "But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection" it is as if his body is his adversary. It is like he was beating his body whether it is said metaphorical, but to the subduing of the natural appetites of the flesh, a life of self-denial not to succumb to the sins of the flesh. The Greek adokimos translated as castaway, is the same word for reprobate, Romans 1:28Titus 1:16. I do not think Paul is talking about rewards.
Hebrews 3:12-13 This chapter starts with "Wherefore holy brethern" These are Christians, saved, verse 6 "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." The writer includes himself "If We". Verses 12 and 13 are to these same people and verse 14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ" Because they are made so they are saved believers in Christ.
1 John 1:7 If is conditional a choice if you walk in the light there is fellowship, if you don't walk in the light, you are outside of the fellowship.
2 Peter 2:20. They had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior; they were saved and had escaped the pollutions/sins of the world. Can we escape sin outside of Christ? They choose to go back to a life of habitual, intentional, and willful sin. And their punishment will be worse, Luke 12:47-48.
Galatians 6:9 This to me is obedience, It says unless we faint, to me that is to give up, quit, intentionally turn away, we reap life everlasting. Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". If we continue that is a choice, we must make that is not given that is our obedience.
Jude 1:21 We are to keep ourselves, the Holy Spirit helps us, but this is something we do and if we do, He will keep us from falling. 2 Peter 1:10 If we do, it is not done for us, we have been given but it is up to us to obey and do, if they have forgotten they had to know it to forget it. If We Do!!! we shall never fall. Hebrews 6:13-16 What Abraham did, in his faith, he waited for a long time he endured. He did not faint or grow weary or turn his back to God, the evidence of his faith, just like when he drew back the knife.
This is not about a Christian who is struggling and battling sin regardless of how long they struggle they are still in the race and if they repent and return in the light will be forgiven and in the grace of God. As David said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, Psalms 51:12. We all are in a battle with our flesh and sin daily. We can lose the joy of salvation and if we come under repentance, we will still be in God's grace but without repentance, we will be cut off.
I am referring to the scriptures that warn those who were saved in the faith that intentionally choose, they knowingly live a sinful lifestyle. They call what is wrong right and sin is ok. They justify and condone sin, much of what we see today, people who were saved but now say sin is okay, I will not list things I'm sure you see it too, what used to be condemned is now ok and accepted, Isaiah 5:20. After we are justified if we do not abide in Jesus if we do not live a life of repentance and obedience, we will be outside of the grace of God.
When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for every sin that the human race will ever commit, from Adam's first sin until the last sin that will be committed. Our sins before we were born again were forgiven, 2 Peter 1:9. Our sins are not forgiven before we commit them, now or in the future. We all will sin but we do not become unsaved. If we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us.
Our life we live is We will be forgiven, not we have been forgiven that is why we should not ignore the Spirit's loving work. Hey, don't do that, and if we slip up, we repent for our disobedience. To me that is a life of repentance and obedience, not works for salvation it is the evidence of our faith. A person can stop doing and lose, walk away, or forfeit, their gift of salvation.
1 Timothy 4:1 Some shall depart from the faith, these are Christians, and you have to be a part of it to depart from it. The process of salvation will not be complete until the return of Jesus and we are resurrected and glorified in our immortal bodies.
Thank you, brother, for this discussion may we grow in faith and understanding.
Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.
Exodus 19:10-12. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
This is a type of cleansing you are describing Ronald when considering man can keep himself sanctified. The problem is, this is absent of Christ atonement.
"Man can never do enough to come from under Christ atonement!
Our part is to obey the Spirit that has been sown in our hearts to carry the Lord's name. We are not to take the Lord's name in vain.
We are to be set apart from the world by our chastened walk through the Spirit, but when it comes to the Holiness of God, our obedience doesn't set us apart from our past, present, and future sin. The atoning blood of Christ does that forever.
The children of Israel although cleaning themselves they could never cleanse themselves enough to come into the presence of God. NEITHER CAN WE!
However, under the new covenant where Christ blood cleanses us we see the contrast of the two in 2 Corinthians 3:3-18.
and Galatians 4:21-31.
The power of His Holy Spirit that gives us new birth at justification is the same power that sanctifies us through the life of the risen Christ.
There are many Bible passages that puts the onus on the Christian to grow spiritually ( Romans 12:1-2; 2 Peter 3:18). However, the Bible clearly indicates that the Christian must cooperate with God but not for eternal security, It's for spiritual growth.
Thank you, brother I will make this short I believe we have come to a point to let it rest. This is something better discussed in person, not on paper things get lost. In Acts 15, it was at least 4 years, after Pentecost when Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem because some Gentiles were told they must be circumcised and follow the law.
It is clear they were debating this for a long time it says much disputing before Peter stood up. He said it was a good while ago when God sent the word to the Gentiles. So, this seems quite a few years after Pentecost, and it appears the apostles were still following the law and circumcision.
They were debating not opposing it, as we see in Acts 21:18-31 there is still division, the Jews were still in the law, it says James and the elders were there, these were people who had accepted Jesus, but they were still in the law, (they are all zealous of the law). We also see Peter was an apostle to the circumcision and Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. When they turned away from Judaism I don't know, in Acts 10:28 they were irate with Peter for his disobedience of the law, and these were apostles.
Our main disagreement is my understanding of Scripture that a person who has accepted Jesus, was baptized, and walking in fellowship with Jesus can intentionally walk away from Jesus and willfully live a life of sin, unless they repent and come back into the light they will perish, will lose the gift of eternal life. For example, the prodigal son Luke 15. Yours is you cannot lose their salvation, it is impossible.
I can give my understanding and you can give yours but not being able to sit down and discuss each verse and flip to others that we cannot do on paper.
You stated, they were debating not opposing it, as we see in Acts 21:18-31 there is still division, the Jews were still in the law,
Let's take this from verse 17, I don't believe it was the Brothern debating Paul. It was the elders of the Jews.
Note: I will pause midway in verse 20 to show where they switch from glorifying God for the news Paul brought them concerning the Gentiles to telling Paul about the Jews that believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Paul was warned in Acts 21:10-13 not to go to Jerusalem because this group sought to bind him.
Now, Luke says Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. THIS IS THE ELDERS OF THE JEWS! NOT THE APOSTLES, AND IT IS NOT JAMES THAT IS CONTENDING WITH PAUL.
17) And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18) And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19) And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20) And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, (PAUSE)
"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
(THIS ZEALOUS GROUP IS NOT THE APOSTLES.) It is the Elders that is saying, "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe."
Continuing with the Elders.
21) And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22) What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Ronald many of the Jews at that time practiced the rituals of the Law and tried to add that to the cross as we see in Galatians, but Paul refuted this.
I agree it's time to let this topic rest between you and me. However, before I go, I will comment on your last reply.
Part 1
In Acts 15 it wasn't the apostles debating over the law or Judaism, (it was them debating the Pharisees).
Acts 15:5-6. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts 15:22-24 You see the Apostles sent letters against this!
A Disciple is one who follows one's teachings, In Christianity these teachings is taught by the Holyspirit.
We are given Christ spirit to know and perform the things of Christ!
That's why they weren't sent out to the rest of the world until they were filled with the Holyspirit.
The spirit of Christ wouldn't have them continue in Judaism, Something Jesus died to free them from. "The curse of the Law"
The ministry of the Holyspirt is shown here in John 16:12-15.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
And concerning Acts 10:28, This is nothing to do with the context of our debate. We're debating whether one can lose his Salvation, which later we begun to debate whether the Apostles continued in Judaism "concerning Salvation" This has nothing to do with neither. Infact Acts 10:28-48 shows the opposite, the issue is that he went unto the uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
It's shown in Acts 11:17-18 that what they believed in and practiced went out to the Gentiles also.
You said we grow until we come to the full measure of Christ, and we will be glorified when we get our glorified bodies. "Which I believe also" ( Ephesians 4:12-13.
So at what point do we lose salvation?
Romans 8:13, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye (THROUGH THE SPIRIT) DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, ye shall live.
We are given Christ spirit for our infirmities, and that is areas we are weak in the flesh.
What you described as one able to keep himself justified is not Salvation at all.
Once you are saved God keeps on saying you. It's not a onetime transaction. Sanctification Is of the Lord, Justification is of the Lord. It's not in your hands to keep yourself saved.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Part 5 I will attempt to give an example of Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.
1 Timothy 4:1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
This verse is in contrast to what is said in the previous Chapter.
" 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 4:1 It can read, "But" the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 3:16 - 1 Timthy 4;1.
Putting them together reads like this.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. "But" the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
This is saying some will depart from what was formally taught and
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; It is not talking about losing salvation.
It reminds me of Luke 18:8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (This should be read shall he find THE faith on the earth?)
Again, we have Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(No believer has an evil heart of unbelief). The writer is saying examine yourself. Verse 10 he says, "They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
You emphasized 1 John 1;7.
I say: IF we are saved, we ARE walking in the light! if we are not in the light we ARE in darkness!
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7. (This is confirmation of salvation, not earning it or trying not to lose it.)
I believe we will have to agree to disagree on the verses you addressed in part 4 being that I have already gave my interpretation on these verses.
However, I would like to address 1 Timothy 4:1. In Part 3.
1) You asked,if a man can choose, can he later as a Christian choose to forsake Christ thereby abandoning his salvation and losing the gift of eternal life? Or is it all predestined? If so, why would there be a judgment?
2) You said Isn't it to believe in him whom he sent?) That is true. To some that is easy, all they must do is believe, they have their ticket. Someone then asks them do they believe in God and what Jesus did, all they must do is say yes, I believe. Is it just to believe that is contradictory, is this a half-truth, like you will not surely die? Gen. 3:4-5. Ronald the scripture saysThat if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE IN THY HEART that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Believing in thy heart is a true profession. it would be like the example given in Matthew 7:21-23.
3) Ronald, you asked; If we say when someone walks away or falls back into sin they were never saved to begin with. If we do is that judging? Is there any way for us to know what is in the heart of another man or woman? and if we say they were never saved is that just to support a doctrine?
I would say no the scripture declares them unsaved. Matthew 7:23.
I would also ask you. if you say someone fell back into sin as you said they would lose their salvation. Isn't that judging and is that just to support a doctrine also?
4) Response to part 3.
You said, Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. (accepting Jesus Christ is turning from Judaism!) And act 15 they were opposing Judaism. Acts 15:5-11. ' You noticed verse 11? "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.Peter is saying the Jews shall be saved even as the gentiles!
John 8:341John 3:6-10Gal 5:9Rom 6:1,2,6,14,15,16,18,22Rom 8:2Hebrews 10:10,14,17,18,26,29,39
there's much more I could bring here in opposition of your thesis of continuing in unbelief & sin for life term,
by the Grace of God I shall.
Matt 3:11,12
not John's, but of Christ spoken of in Rom 6, being dead unto sin,,,which is being born again of the Incorruptible Seed, were one becomes a new creature, old things are pass away "sinful nature has been crucified on the cross of self denial" we having awaken unto Righteousness, all things become new & we sin not because His Seed remains within us. for those Rom 8:14 the Spirit of God will never, never lead us into sin, thus opening more fully the Law of the Spirit of Life of Christ Jesus, therefore we abide in Him & sin not, for abiding in this law sets us free from the law of sin & death.
1Peter 1:9 here & now, Remember this perfection can be added to as we grow in Grace, as Paul declares in Philippians.
According to your own statement & others like minded, you're not abiding in Him, for you are continuing to commit sin as a way of life, Which Holy Spirit says in Romans that now your under Grace, God forbid, confirming by the Spirit of the Scriptures of Truth that one is not born again, neither knows Him.
Ronald,,,,Friend---As I read your posts my heart went out to you, meaning I felt your sincerity, honesty & godly desires towards God, this is not in question here, but the knowledge you have is not the true knowledge of God, I'm speaking from my past experience,
I like you was sincere, etc, but I was sincerely wrong, oh how I struggled, the veil always separated me from my Beloved, there was no pure unity of the faith & oneness that Christ prayed for, my conscience bearing witness against me, no matter how I cried, repented, fasted, prayed or studies the letter, & walk accordingly, yet, the veil was still hung between us & why? 2Cor 3:6 I remember it quiet well, a yoyo of an experience.
1 Cor 15:34,45 true knowledge is given by the true Grace of God who appears bringing salvation to all mankind.
Ronald, have you ever had an unction that cross your own will, telling you not to do or say something & show you what to do or to say? & if not heeded to, condemn you for it? Or maybe you were in a tryst state, & say or did something & later Holy Spirit/ Grace convicted you of wrong? This is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, Grace/Light/Anointing we have received & appears within us, & if minded & exercised is the daily Cross & is not a lie, abide in Him & in the steadfast confidence continual exercising of it, will eventually set us free from the law of sin & death. Received by Luke 10:42Psalms 130:5"the word of His Grace, who words are Spirit & Life" Psalms 145:12-18Psalms 123:2Psalms 62:5 meaning silencing all thoughts & imaginations & in stillness of soul, wait. Psalms 46:10 and He will appear Hebrews 9:28 . Believing that it is He appearing to you is faith, hearing the Word of God in the heart, that Paul preached & this faith purifies the heart & gives victory over the world.
2Cor 3:16-18 this stillness & waiting upon the Lord is turning to Him, who is Spirit, whom takes the veil away & gives us knowledge of Himself, 2Cor 4:6,7 setting us free from the bondage of sin, we know the Truth & the Truth set us free & transforms us into His Image. Light begets light, in whom there is no darkness at all.
causing you Philippians 2:13Hebrews 13:21 "obviously this is not sinning".
Thank you for your caring and concerned reply, many are not in agreement with understanding this subject, and as long as we address it with caring and love to not let it divide us. All I can do is give the understanding I have received from my prayer and study with an open heart.
John 8:34 The Greek word poie translated as committeth means continuing the actions of sin, being the servant of sin. They were not willing to accept Jesus as their Messiah and come in repentance, not that they would not sin. 1 John 3:6-10 As long as we abide in Him we are in a relationship walking in the light.
Does this mean we will not sin? No, if we are abiding in Him, we are living a repentant life and in obedience, not a slave to sin but a slave to Christ. In verse 8 we have that Greek word poie we are not practicing and continuing in sin not in repentance. Same in verse 9 poieo commit, the children of God are manifest, they are being known by following and being obedient.
Gal. 5-9 we have had 2000 years of leaven that we can see everywhere the whole lump is almost bloated. Rom 6:1,2,6,14,15,16,18,22 These are about not to continue in sin, sinning without thought or repentance. When we accept Jesus and are baptized, we are justified and made righteous no longer a servant to sin.
Does that mean we never sin again, No, we are dead and free from sin as long as we are obedient Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. We must remain faithful and obedient, if not we will be responsible and have to pay for our sins. Rom. 8:2 as long as we abide in Jesus, we have life and are free from the penalty of death the strength of sin is the law. Hebrews 10:10,14,17,18,26,29,39 My understanding of this chapter is written to those of the house of Israel that some who had become a Christian were falling back to the old law.
The heart of it is Heb.10:23-27 the same as for us today we are to hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering or forsake, if we do not hold fast, we will not be in God's grace and our sins will no longer be covered and we will pay at the judgment. Phill. 2:13 Heb. 13:21 is God's work of sanctification.
Quote: (Ronald, have you ever had an unction that cross your own will, telling you not to do or say something & show you what to do or to say? & if not heeded to, condemn you for it? Or maybe you were in a tryst state, & say or did something & later Holy Spirit/ Grace convicted you of wrong? This is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, Grace.)
I agree and I do not think I have said anything that is contradictory of it. As long as we are in the grace of God walking in the light not in the flesh our sins will be forgiven and our salvation secure.
If we believe, If we abide in Jesus, if ye keep my commandments, if we endure, if thou continue in his goodness, if ye keep in memory, if we faint not, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end, if ye endure chastening, If we confess our sins, he that endureth to the end shall be saved, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,
These are things that we must do, our responsibility, our obedience, there are more. We cannot earn our salvation it is a free gift by the grace of God through the faith of Jesus. We are to be obedient and if we are until the end, we will be in the grace of God covered by the blood of Christ and all our sins will be blotted out. If we are not, we will be cut off Rom. 11:22, and be under the penalty of sin and we know what that is. A Person who was saved, a Christian, can turn from Christ and return to sin.
Our difference I see, is my understanding is a Christian can if they do not endure and go back and willfully sin unrepentant will lose their salvation and the gift of eternal life.
Your opening statement is welcome & much appreciated,
I see that your knowledge of God is from the letter, this is contrary to the Scriptures
Its a knowledge without the Spirit & Life oF Christ, its fruit is a form of godliness without the power to be truly godly
Meaning; it does take away one sins.
Ronald;
how can one "be a slave of Jesus & continue in sin?"
quoting you;
"we have had 2000 years of leaven that we can see everywhere the whole lump is almost bloated."
This is evident token of what the letter produces &
would you consider yourselve a part of this bloatation in continuing to sin?
Rom 6:1,2,6,14,15,16,18,22
"These are about not to continue in sin, sinning without thought or repentance."
Where does it imply this? Are you saying your in premediation to sin and repent later? & if not how do you know you will get a chance to repent? Not to mention that godly sorrow of repentance is an adhorrance in oneself & a resignation of spirit in total reliance on the Grace of God to not commit it again
"accept Jesus and are baptized, "
which baptizmal are we speaking of water or fire? The fire refers to thoroughly purging the threshing floor of our hearts with
unquenchable fire, which burns up the sinful nature, the chaff, thus becoming dead unto sin
Ephesians 4:5 & becoming a partaker of the Divine Nature that does not sin having escape the corruption thru lust
" justified and made righteous no longer a servant to sin"
if you are no more a servant unto sin, then why are you still commting sin?
Ronald the knowledge that you have is not according to the Spirit of the Scriptures
this is not saying you don't have a sincere heart, but are deceived
Everyone haves their day of visitation from the Lord, when He set life & death before them, its a very solemn moment within ,
I pray that when your turn comes
you will choose life. you have a heart for God, just not the true knowledge.
Reread last thread, particularly the end. Waiting on the Lord.
Friends, don't turn away from the Lord; Hebrews 12:29
who in His tender love trys our faith, whether it be birth & grounded in the doctrines of Christ.
True faith is birth of the Spirit & purifies the heart 1John 3:3Psalms 24:3,4Matt 5:8
If we are experiencing tribulations as define:
properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure within ,then our Refiner has come near us & we're in the fire being refined of false doctrines, sin or for whatsoever else He purposes are, for even after we are born again of His Spirit, tribulation & suffering continues in the perfecting of our faith, though now for a different purposes.
we're experiencing Psalms 89:14
Again, don't turn away from Christ, for He has come nearer to us, to purge out the dross
Love the Fire, its separates the precious from the vile, let us not hide our head in the darkness of an hole, like an ostrich & say i don't want to talk about it.
I hope you notice I said, we, us, our, Friends we all begin as miserable sinners, but we don't have to remain sinners.
Col 1:21,22 lets press towards the high calling in Christ Jesus
I will just ask one question and you can answer it to yourself. Can you say and confess from the day you accepted Jesus as your Savior and was baptized you have not committed any sin? Is that true? If you cannot answer yes, it is true I have not committed any sin since I accepted Jesus as my Savior and was baptized, your debate is fruitless.
Ronald.. 1 cor 9:27, has there ever been a more clearer verse?.. Castaway, same word as reprobate, don't know why they translated it "castaway".. nevertheless.. reprobate.. serious stuff there. The meaning is as "decisive" as it gets.
This section I will attempt to address those scriptures you presented suggesting one can lose his Salvation.
Hebrews 3:12-13.
Verse 12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Well, if there is an evil heart of unbelief, and deceitfulness of sin. THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED!
1 John 1:7.
Ronald, I don't grasp you here. This is not a verse saying you can lose Salvation.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, if we are in the light we are saved. If we are not in the light, we are not saved.
2 Peter 2:20.
Look at 2 Peter 2:22. These are dogs, NOT SONS! This is the same group described in the previous verses!
Take it from 2 Peter 2:9-20 to get the context.
Galatians 6:9.
Christians will go before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account for the things done in the flesh.
We are to keep sowing and in due season we will reap. this is the fruit of their labor.
He that soweth to the Spirit, sows to the spirit by the power of the Holyspirit.
Paul has just asked the Galatian Christians to be convinced, once again, that trusting their flesh in this life will only lead to corruption. Reliance on our own power only leads to death. That is true whether we trust human effort to save us by following the rituals and sacraments of the law, or by following our own selfish, sinful desires.
Salvation comes only by "planting" the Spirit. Through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of our sin.
God gives to us His own Spirit. Only that Spirit will deliver eternal life in the end.
Colossians 1:23.
Verses 21-22 states we have been reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Jude 1:24. says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
So, those who is moved away from the faith was never saved.
The context in this verse is Paul concerned about failing to obtain his goal of winning others, He's talking about preaching, Not sinning and somehow losing Salvation! Paul's goal is to win a prize!
He's using the analogy of getting off course and being disqualified.
This clears itself up it we take this passage of scripture from verse 22.
"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
And this I do for the gospel's sake, THAT I MIGHT BE PARTAKERS THEREOF WITH YOU.
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, WHEN I HAVE PREACHED TO OTHERS, I myself should be a castaway.
(Paul is talking about rewards, he makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.)
"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved;)
I understand, years ago I traveled in my work, and it takes a lot to be away from home. I will go over what you have sent, wow you have put in some time, and I know that is special. It will take me a few days I am not a young man anymore.
This is the beginning of the Christ church, and the Gospel first went out to the Jews, Peter was talking to the local crowd. "ALL Jews" Acts 2:5 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Also Acts 2:22 and Acts 2:36.
They were celebrating Shavuot-the Feast of Weeks-also known as Hag Ha Katzir, the Feast of Harvest, and known to most of us as the Feast of Pentecost. It is worthy to note that this feast was also one of three which was important for every able-bodied male to attend in Jerusalem.
Peter was letting them know that they crucified their king and Messiah.
Then in Acts 2:37 it's important to notice their reaction and what they asked; (Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO?)
In verse 38 Peter answers them; Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This repentance was to turn from Judaism and be Identified with Christ.
They were pricked in their hearts shows a stone lifted that they stumbled over. Their baptism was their profession of faith. They were baptized by the Holyspirit during this process.
John 10:7-10 you see the Lord is calling the Jews out of Judaism.
In John 15:1 Jesus says I am the TRUE vine or "Genuine" vine. This is contrary to Israel being the degenerate vine seen in Jeremiah 2:21. John the Baptist came to Prepare the way for Lord, John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. This transition period went on throughout the early church.
They were to turn from Judaism and believe on Christ as mentioned in John 6:29.
Peter and the rest of the disciples was told to go Jerusalem to wait on power from on high. When they received that power, they begun to do the work of God.
What is the nature of sheep and how do they perform?
What is the role of the shepherd?
Salvation is not a performance or an acting Job. We are to be led by the Spirit and walk in it.
When we get out of line, God chastise us. He's your father and you're his son, He never abandons us. When sheep go astray the shepherd goes out looking for them. Christ is the Chief Shepherd.
John 10:3-4. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Ronald parallel John 10:9 with Joh 6:27 in part 2.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
If we have died in Christ, we should already be seeing the power of his Resurrection and not depend on those fleshly attempts that brought no fruit. (self-righteousness) in Paul's case the Law.
Philippians 3:9-16.
Christ is doing something new.
He is putting his spirit in man that he might know him and do his statutes. "First to the Jews and then to the Gentiles, forming his Church.
John 10:16.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Ronald, you said Salvation is a gift from God, but We cannot earn this gift, but we must receive it according to God's terms. Isn't that a contradictory statement?
What are God's terms? Isn't it believe in him whom he sent?
John 6:27-29.
27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
"Notice in verse 28 the disciple's ask what their labor is they must do.
Notice in verse 29 Jesus gives them their part!
28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
AFTER YOU PART SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE IS ESTABLISHED!
Here is the next step and source of our growth. Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Ronald, concerning Abraham.
Abraham proved his faith by his works, He was justified by faith alone.
Here's how Paul put it in Romans 10:8-11. "AND NOTICE THE LAST SENTENCE IN VERSE 11"
"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH ON HIM SHALL NOT BE ASHAMED.
As I promised, I would get back to you on this Salvation matter.
Sorry for such a delay.
(BY WAY OF RECAP.)
Context from the original post.
Paul is urging believers to "RECOGNIZE" you wasn't just Identified with Christ death in baptism,
You should also be Identified in his resurrection and have newness of Life.
God didn't just offer Christ as a free gift for those who believe unto Salvation. SALVATION IS A NEW LIFE.
(PAUL IS SAYING RECOGNIZE THAT SIN SHOULDN'T DOMINATE IN A BELIEVER'S LIFE.)
Does this make you perfect?
No, NOT CONDITIONALLY.
Shall we resist sin? Yes
We are perfect POSITIONALLY.
Colossians 3:1-4
We have been given an earnest of the Spirit, will be perfect CONDITIONALLY and glorified when we cast off this tabernacle/ Body of sin.
FOR CLARITY.
When I said Sanctification comes after Salvation, I want to clear that up a bit. We are Sanctified "Given Christ righteousness" That is the means of our Salvation. That is Positional Sanctification. THAT COME IMMEDIATLY!
We are hidden in Christ! We are sealed by the Holyspirit! Romans 8:23-32 sums the context of this thread perfectly.
"Conditional Sanctification" is the process we go through as WE GROW IN GRACE.
This is the imperfect condition a believer while in the body, "YET POCESSING EVERLASTING, ETERNAL SALVATION.
Your walk and works testifies of your faith and rebirth.
Thank you, brother, we will continue in love and respect that we both will grow.
This is not an easy subject, and we must not let it divide. The one thing that concerns me is some can take this subject to mean they can never lose their salvation regardless. Some say that if a person reverts to sin again, they were never saved to begin with. I am saddened that I may not clearly explain my understanding of this.
Salvation is a process beginning with justification then sanctification and ending with glorification when we are resurrected and we shall be like Him 1 John 3:2, this is our hope.
It is not a percentage of the sins we commit; it is all our sins that will be blotted out. My understanding is salvation is a gift from God's grace, Eph. 2:8, We cannot earn this gift, but we must receive it according to God's terms.
Acts 2:37-41 is this works? No, we acknowledge our faith that Jesus was sacrificed, and His blood was shed for the remission of our sins, and we choose to be obedient in repenting of our sins. It is the same obedience as Abraham when God told him to pick up and leave his country Abraham departed and Abraham was asked to do more and he did in faith and belief in God, Rom. 4:3.
When we obey and repent of our sins we are justified, justification made righteous through the blood of Jesus 2 Cor. 5:21Rom. 5:1-2. We move into sanctification through the Spirit of God when we are growing in the Lord. The ongoing work of God through the Spirit in our lives into the image of His Son Jesus Christ. Heb. 10:14 We are being made perfect daily by faith we strive to overcome our imperfections.
The Lord told Israel in Ezekiel 36:27 he will put his spirit within them, and cause them to walk in his statutes, and they shall keep his judgments, and do them.
This is also what he does for us Gentiles. If we all agree Israel is saved "or is to be saved" the same way we are then the Holyspirit that directs their walk is the same that directs ours.
If we agree we all sin and no one can present themselves perfect but yet you can forfeit your salvation, What percentage of your sins you have to repent from to be saved?
What percentage of sins you have to commit before you lose your salvation?
Ephesians 2:4-6 says "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
( He made us alive WITH CHRIST)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How long does that mercy last?
Does our imperfect nature forfeit God's mercy?
God's Commandments, statutes, and judgments are perfect!
The Holyspirit drives us to perform them perfectly.
However we stumble at the perfection in the Law and sin against it even in our imperfect minds.
Even the restraint from sin let's us know we are sinners in need of God's mercy.
Paul says, in Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
You can't do anything to gain salvation and you can't do anything to hold it.
If it's not the Holyspirit that is regenerating you then you are not saved even if you supposedly stopped sinning.
Salvation is a new life, one from above with a repentant heart.
Your walk testifies of this rebirth.
Salvation comes before Sanctification and Sanctification Is a continuing work of the Holyspirit.
God bless.
I KNOW you believe we are saved by grace ALONE, everything is the WORKS of GOD.
May the spirit of truth add to your comments:
You said OUR PART is confess and believe.
IS IT NOT the ''works'' of CHRIST IN US that CAUSES us to believe.
Philippians 1:29 For it is given (GRACE) to us on the behalf of Christ --- TO BELIEVE ----
ALL is the WORKS of GOD.
The ""belief" by and of, the "faith" by and of, the "life" by and of ---JESUS CHRIST ---
We are just the BODY of CHRIST, the "heart" and "mind" in that body; you and I and everyone else, IS CHRIST
Christ; the firstborn, of many brethren, we are the FRUIT of the TESTOR.
Isaiah 14:29 and out of the ROOT of the serpent (man) shall come forth a cockatrice (a saviour of men) and his (the saviours) FRUIT shall be a FIERY FLYING SERPENT.
God BLESS YOU as the spirit of truth makes us all ONE in Christ.
Philippians 1:29.
You are right.
God bless.
Part 2
This we must do for the rest of our lives, to live in repentance and obedience walking in the Spirit, not in this world. We must include these scriptures that show during our life and be sanctified one can fail, fall away whatever we want to call it, Heb. 3:12-13 1 John 1:7 2 Peter 2:20 we are told to keep ourselves Jude 21 If we hold fast the confidence, Heb. 3:6 If we faint not, Gal. 6:9 If ye continue in the faith, Col. 1:23 If ye do these things, 2 Peter 1:10, Paul said this about himself 1 Cor. 9:25-27.
Do we err when we say I was saved on whatever date when we should say my salvation started and I was justified made righteous, and I am now walking in the Spirit of God looking for the day I will be glorified when My Savior Jesus Christ returns and I will be like Him and as long as I breathe I will continue to walk in the Spirit of God as I am sanctified to be made perfect as My Lord Jesus is perfect? We must, every day be obedient and ask for forgiveness and guidance to keep going for the goal.
When are we saved is it when we accept Jesus as our Savior, if then do we overlook we must endure until the end. We must have the earnest/downpayment of the Spirit 2 Cor. 5:5, a downpayment for the final purchase when Jesus returns to claim His elect. We must know and realize that for whom the downpayment has been placed it must be intact when Jesus returns. We must endure until the end. Matt. 10:22 Matt. 24:13 John 6:27 As Abraham Heb. 6:13-16 James 1:12
I wish I could explain this better; I feel I have come up short, but I feel those who believe when walking down the aisle and confess they believe in Jesus they have a nonrefundable ticket to eternity, that is wrong.
God bless,
RLW
Part 7.
2 Peter 1:10.
Let's take this from verses 3-4.
(According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,) through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.)
Paul lists what's added in 2 Peter 1:5-7. "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge.
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness.
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
Verse 8!
"FOR IF THESE THINGS BE IN YOU", and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The contrary to "these things being in you" is seen in is verse 9.
BUT HE THAT LACKETH THESE THINGS IS BLIND, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
In verse 10 Paul is telling us to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
He is saying if according to Christ divine power hath he given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, and whereby we are given exceeding great and precious promises and by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " Make your calling and election sure: for "IF YOU ARE DOING THESE THINGS", ye shall never fall.
Hebrews 6:13-16.
When God performed this covenant with Abraham, he put Abraham to sleep. IT WAS UNCONDITIONAL!
Genesis 15:1-12.
Matthew 24:13.
This is to take place during the great tribulation period.
However, I'm not going to get into that on this thread.
This is how I interpret those verses, perhaps some can help and improve on this.
God bless you brother.
Part one
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We both agree on the verse above, salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and is a gift not of ourselves, we cannot earn our salvation. We are also ordained that we should walk in good works.
This is not a discussion on how we are saved it is about whether when we accept Jesus as our savior and are baptized, are we saved forever. Are all our sins ever we do, forgiven at that point? Or can we fall from God's grace and forfeit our salvation? One thought, do we have free will, if so, God being a sovereign God would leave it up to man to choose to accept or reject His word, His offer, and His gift. So, if a man can choose, can he later as a Christian choose to forsake Christ thereby abandoning his salvation and losing the gift of eternal life? Or is it all predestined? If so, why would there be a judgment?
What are God's terms? (Isn't that a contradictory statement? Isn't it to believe in him whom he sent?) That is true. To some that is easy, all they must do is believe, they have their ticket. Someone then asks them do they believe in God and what Jesus did, all they must do is say yes, I believe. Is it just to believe that is contradictory, is this a half-truth, like you will not surely die? Gen. 3:4-5.
If we say when someone walks away or falls back into sin they were never saved to begin with. If we do is that judging? Is there any way for us to know what is in the heart of another man or woman? 1 Cor. 2:11. If we say they were never saved is that just to support a doctrine? I have been studying this is the reason for the delay. I hope I can show my understanding of this long-debated subject.
See part two,
Part two
What does it mean to believe? What is the evidence that we believe? As Paul said, it is like running a race, when we start this race, we believe we are going to finish, and with God's Spirit we have all the determination and motivation we are not only going to finish this race we are going to win this race.
We are saved! We are being saved! We shall be saved! When we start, are all our sins forgiven, our past, present, and our future sins the moment we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and are baptized? Is our salvation guaranteed and we cannot lose it or fall out of grace regardless?
We are saved. Eph. 2:5 When we accept the gospel and are baptized our sins are blotted out, Isaiah 44:22 Acts 3:19 and we become a child/son/daughter of God, John 1:12 we are justified, made righteous by the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and now we begin a relationship through God's Spirit, and God and Jesus abide in us, 2 John 1:9. This is the start of the race, the beginning of our salvation.
We are being saved. Philippians 1:6 Hearing the Word one believes and is baptized into Christ they are made clean (justification) the work of grace, and the Lord will continue working in us until He returns if we abide in Him John 15:3-5. How does God complete his good work in us? Testing James 1:2-4, chastising Heb. 12:6-7 Our relationship. If we abide in Him, Jesus, and God abides in us. The branches bear the fruit of the vine, the vine produces the fruit not us/branch, sanctification. We are running the race Philippians 2:12
We shall be saved. Redemption and glorification. Our full salvation comes at the end, when Jesus returns. Luke 21:28 "being now justified" We started the race. We are being saved, "being reconciled" we are running the race, 2 Cor. 5:18. We shall be saved at the end of the race. Romans 13:11.
See part three.
Part three,
Each believer is personally responsible for living in obedience to Christ's commands. 1 Timothy 4:16. Can we come up short, Hebrews 4:1. Some of the natural branches of the house of Israel were broken off for unbelief so the people of the nations who believe and are justified are grafted in. Believers/saved can be cut off if they do not continue in his goodness/grace. Romans 11:15-24.
Much of your post I agree, it is about becoming saved and our relationship with Jesus, and if we continue to abide in Him those scriptures apply. Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. Peter and the disciples at this time were still observing the old law. We see years later they were still debating it in Acts 15.
1 Cor. 9:27 If we look at the wording "But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection" it is as if his body is his adversary. It is like he was beating his body whether it is said metaphorical, but to the subduing of the natural appetites of the flesh, a life of self-denial not to succumb to the sins of the flesh. The Greek adokimos translated as castaway, is the same word for reprobate, Romans 1:28 Titus 1:16. I do not think Paul is talking about rewards.
Hebrews 3:12-13 This chapter starts with "Wherefore holy brethern" These are Christians, saved, verse 6 "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." The writer includes himself "If We". Verses 12 and 13 are to these same people and verse 14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ" Because they are made so they are saved believers in Christ.
1 John 1:7 If is conditional a choice if you walk in the light there is fellowship, if you don't walk in the light, you are outside of the fellowship.
See part four.
Part four,
2 Peter 2:20. They had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior; they were saved and had escaped the pollutions/sins of the world. Can we escape sin outside of Christ? They choose to go back to a life of habitual, intentional, and willful sin. And their punishment will be worse, Luke 12:47-48.
Galatians 6:9 This to me is obedience, It says unless we faint, to me that is to give up, quit, intentionally turn away, we reap life everlasting. Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". If we continue that is a choice, we must make that is not given that is our obedience.
Jude 1:21 We are to keep ourselves, the Holy Spirit helps us, but this is something we do and if we do, He will keep us from falling. 2 Peter 1:10 If we do, it is not done for us, we have been given but it is up to us to obey and do, if they have forgotten they had to know it to forget it. If We Do!!! we shall never fall. Hebrews 6:13-16 What Abraham did, in his faith, he waited for a long time he endured. He did not faint or grow weary or turn his back to God, the evidence of his faith, just like when he drew back the knife.
This is not about a Christian who is struggling and battling sin regardless of how long they struggle they are still in the race and if they repent and return in the light will be forgiven and in the grace of God. As David said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, Psalms 51:12. We all are in a battle with our flesh and sin daily. We can lose the joy of salvation and if we come under repentance, we will still be in God's grace but without repentance, we will be cut off.
See part 5.
Part 5
I am referring to the scriptures that warn those who were saved in the faith that intentionally choose, they knowingly live a sinful lifestyle. They call what is wrong right and sin is ok. They justify and condone sin, much of what we see today, people who were saved but now say sin is okay, I will not list things I'm sure you see it too, what used to be condemned is now ok and accepted, Isaiah 5:20. After we are justified if we do not abide in Jesus if we do not live a life of repentance and obedience, we will be outside of the grace of God.
When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for every sin that the human race will ever commit, from Adam's first sin until the last sin that will be committed. Our sins before we were born again were forgiven, 2 Peter 1:9. Our sins are not forgiven before we commit them, now or in the future. We all will sin but we do not become unsaved. If we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us.
Our life we live is We will be forgiven, not we have been forgiven that is why we should not ignore the Spirit's loving work. Hey, don't do that, and if we slip up, we repent for our disobedience. To me that is a life of repentance and obedience, not works for salvation it is the evidence of our faith. A person can stop doing and lose, walk away, or forfeit, their gift of salvation.
1 Timothy 4:1 Some shall depart from the faith, these are Christians, and you have to be a part of it to depart from it. The process of salvation will not be complete until the return of Jesus and we are resurrected and glorified in our immortal bodies.
Thank you, brother, for this discussion may we grow in faith and understanding.
God bless,
RLW
Part 5.
Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.
Exodus 19:10-12. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
This is a type of cleansing you are describing Ronald when considering man can keep himself sanctified. The problem is, this is absent of Christ atonement.
"Man can never do enough to come from under Christ atonement!
Our part is to obey the Spirit that has been sown in our hearts to carry the Lord's name. We are not to take the Lord's name in vain.
We are to be set apart from the world by our chastened walk through the Spirit, but when it comes to the Holiness of God, our obedience doesn't set us apart from our past, present, and future sin. The atoning blood of Christ does that forever.
The children of Israel although cleaning themselves they could never cleanse themselves enough to come into the presence of God. NEITHER CAN WE!
However, under the new covenant where Christ blood cleanses us we see the contrast of the two in 2 Corinthians 3:3-18.
and Galatians 4:21-31.
The power of His Holy Spirit that gives us new birth at justification is the same power that sanctifies us through the life of the risen Christ.
There are many Bible passages that puts the onus on the Christian to grow spiritually ( Romans 12:1-2; 2 Peter 3:18). However, the Bible clearly indicates that the Christian must cooperate with God but not for eternal security, It's for spiritual growth.
Thanks for replying and God bless.
Thank you, brother I will make this short I believe we have come to a point to let it rest. This is something better discussed in person, not on paper things get lost. In Acts 15, it was at least 4 years, after Pentecost when Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem because some Gentiles were told they must be circumcised and follow the law.
It is clear they were debating this for a long time it says much disputing before Peter stood up. He said it was a good while ago when God sent the word to the Gentiles. So, this seems quite a few years after Pentecost, and it appears the apostles were still following the law and circumcision.
They were debating not opposing it, as we see in Acts 21:18-31 there is still division, the Jews were still in the law, it says James and the elders were there, these were people who had accepted Jesus, but they were still in the law, (they are all zealous of the law). We also see Peter was an apostle to the circumcision and Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. When they turned away from Judaism I don't know, in Acts 10:28 they were irate with Peter for his disobedience of the law, and these were apostles.
Our main disagreement is my understanding of Scripture that a person who has accepted Jesus, was baptized, and walking in fellowship with Jesus can intentionally walk away from Jesus and willfully live a life of sin, unless they repent and come back into the light they will perish, will lose the gift of eternal life. For example, the prodigal son Luke 15. Yours is you cannot lose their salvation, it is impossible.
I can give my understanding and you can give yours but not being able to sit down and discuss each verse and flip to others that we cannot do on paper.
Have a wonderful evening and a great week.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2. "Last reply"
Acts 21:18-31.
You stated, they were debating not opposing it, as we see in Acts 21:18-31 there is still division, the Jews were still in the law,
Let's take this from verse 17, I don't believe it was the Brothern debating Paul. It was the elders of the Jews.
Note: I will pause midway in verse 20 to show where they switch from glorifying God for the news Paul brought them concerning the Gentiles to telling Paul about the Jews that believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Paul was warned in Acts 21:10-13 not to go to Jerusalem because this group sought to bind him.
Now, Luke says Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. THIS IS THE ELDERS OF THE JEWS! NOT THE APOSTLES, AND IT IS NOT JAMES THAT IS CONTENDING WITH PAUL.
17) And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18) And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19) And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20) And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, (PAUSE)
"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
(THIS ZEALOUS GROUP IS NOT THE APOSTLES.) It is the Elders that is saying, "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe."
Continuing with the Elders.
21) And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22) What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Ronald many of the Jews at that time practiced the rituals of the Law and tried to add that to the cross as we see in Galatians, but Paul refuted this.
Thanks for your time and have a good week Ronald.
God bless.
I agree it's time to let this topic rest between you and me. However, before I go, I will comment on your last reply.
Part 1
In Acts 15 it wasn't the apostles debating over the law or Judaism, (it was them debating the Pharisees).
Acts 15:5-6. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts 15:22-24 You see the Apostles sent letters against this!
A Disciple is one who follows one's teachings, In Christianity these teachings is taught by the Holyspirit.
We are given Christ spirit to know and perform the things of Christ!
That's why they weren't sent out to the rest of the world until they were filled with the Holyspirit.
The spirit of Christ wouldn't have them continue in Judaism, Something Jesus died to free them from. "The curse of the Law"
The ministry of the Holyspirt is shown here in John 16:12-15.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
And concerning Acts 10:28, This is nothing to do with the context of our debate. We're debating whether one can lose his Salvation, which later we begun to debate whether the Apostles continued in Judaism "concerning Salvation" This has nothing to do with neither. Infact Acts 10:28-48 shows the opposite, the issue is that he went unto the uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
It's shown in Acts 11:17-18 that what they believed in and practiced went out to the Gentiles also.
See Part 2
Part 4.
You said we grow until we come to the full measure of Christ, and we will be glorified when we get our glorified bodies. "Which I believe also" ( Ephesians 4:12-13.
So at what point do we lose salvation?
Romans 8:13, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye (THROUGH THE SPIRIT) DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, ye shall live.
We are given Christ spirit for our infirmities, and that is areas we are weak in the flesh.
What you described as one able to keep himself justified is not Salvation at all.
Once you are saved God keeps on saying you. It's not a onetime transaction. Sanctification Is of the Lord, Justification is of the Lord. It's not in your hands to keep yourself saved.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Part 5 I will attempt to give an example of Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.
See Part 5.
Part 3.
Addressing 1 Timothy 4:1
1 Timothy 4:1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
This verse is in contrast to what is said in the previous Chapter.
" 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 4:1 It can read, "But" the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 3:16 - 1 Timthy 4;1.
Putting them together reads like this.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. "But" the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
This is saying some will depart from what was formally taught and
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; It is not talking about losing salvation.
It reminds me of Luke 18:8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (This should be read shall he find THE faith on the earth?)
See Part 4.
Part 2.
Continuing my response to part 1.
Again, we have Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(No believer has an evil heart of unbelief). The writer is saying examine yourself. Verse 10 he says, "They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
You emphasized 1 John 1;7.
I say: IF we are saved, we ARE walking in the light! if we are not in the light we ARE in darkness!
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7. (This is confirmation of salvation, not earning it or trying not to lose it.)
I believe we will have to agree to disagree on the verses you addressed in part 4 being that I have already gave my interpretation on these verses.
However, I would like to address 1 Timothy 4:1. In Part 3.
See Part 3.
Part 1.
Response to part 1.
1) You asked,if a man can choose, can he later as a Christian choose to forsake Christ thereby abandoning his salvation and losing the gift of eternal life? Or is it all predestined? If so, why would there be a judgment?
2) You said Isn't it to believe in him whom he sent?) That is true. To some that is easy, all they must do is believe, they have their ticket. Someone then asks them do they believe in God and what Jesus did, all they must do is say yes, I believe. Is it just to believe that is contradictory, is this a half-truth, like you will not surely die? Gen. 3:4-5. Ronald the scripture saysThat if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE IN THY HEART that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Believing in thy heart is a true profession. it would be like the example given in Matthew 7:21-23.
3) Ronald, you asked; If we say when someone walks away or falls back into sin they were never saved to begin with. If we do is that judging? Is there any way for us to know what is in the heart of another man or woman? and if we say they were never saved is that just to support a doctrine?
I would say no the scripture declares them unsaved. Matthew 7:23.
I would also ask you. if you say someone fell back into sin as you said they would lose their salvation. Isn't that judging and is that just to support a doctrine also?
4) Response to part 3.
You said, Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. (accepting Jesus Christ is turning from Judaism!) And act 15 they were opposing Judaism. Acts 15:5-11. ' You noticed verse 11? "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.Peter is saying the Jews shall be saved even as the gentiles!
See Part 2.
Dear Ronald
How would you explain away these Scriptures?
John 8:34 1John 3:6-10 Gal 5:9 Rom 6:1,2,6,14,15,16,18,22 Rom 8:2 Hebrews 10:10,14,17,18,26,29,39
there's much more I could bring here in opposition of your thesis of continuing in unbelief & sin for life term,
by the Grace of God I shall.
Matt 3:11,12
not John's, but of Christ spoken of in Rom 6, being dead unto sin,,,which is being born again of the Incorruptible Seed, were one becomes a new creature, old things are pass away "sinful nature has been crucified on the cross of self denial" we having awaken unto Righteousness, all things become new & we sin not because His Seed remains within us. for those Rom 8:14 the Spirit of God will never, never lead us into sin, thus opening more fully the Law of the Spirit of Life of Christ Jesus, therefore we abide in Him & sin not, for abiding in this law sets us free from the law of sin & death.
1Peter 1:9 here & now, Remember this perfection can be added to as we grow in Grace, as Paul declares in Philippians.
According to your own statement & others like minded, you're not abiding in Him, for you are continuing to commit sin as a way of life, Which Holy Spirit says in Romans that now your under Grace, God forbid, confirming by the Spirit of the Scriptures of Truth that one is not born again, neither knows Him.
Ronald,,,,Friend---As I read your posts my heart went out to you, meaning I felt your sincerity, honesty & godly desires towards God, this is not in question here, but the knowledge you have is not the true knowledge of God, I'm speaking from my past experience,
I like you was sincere, etc, but I was sincerely wrong, oh how I struggled, the veil always separated me from my Beloved, there was no pure unity of the faith & oneness that Christ prayed for, my conscience bearing witness against me, no matter how I cried, repented, fasted, prayed or studies the letter, & walk accordingly, yet, the veil was still hung between us & why? 2Cor 3:6 I remember it quiet well, a yoyo of an experience.
1 Cor 15:34,45 true knowledge is given by the true Grace of God who appears bringing salvation to all mankind.
Ronald, have you ever had an unction that cross your own will, telling you not to do or say something & show you what to do or to say? & if not heeded to, condemn you for it? Or maybe you were in a tryst state, & say or did something & later Holy Spirit/ Grace convicted you of wrong? This is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, Grace/Light/Anointing we have received & appears within us, & if minded & exercised is the daily Cross & is not a lie, abide in Him & in the steadfast confidence continual exercising of it, will eventually set us free from the law of sin & death. Received by Luke 10:42 Psalms 130:5"the word of His Grace, who words are Spirit & Life" Psalms 145:12-18 Psalms 123:2 Psalms 62:5 meaning silencing all thoughts & imaginations & in stillness of soul, wait. Psalms 46:10 and He will appear Hebrews 9:28 . Believing that it is He appearing to you is faith, hearing the Word of God in the heart, that Paul preached & this faith purifies the heart & gives victory over the world.
2Cor 3:16-18 this stillness & waiting upon the Lord is turning to Him, who is Spirit, whom takes the veil away & gives us knowledge of Himself, 2Cor 4:6,7 setting us free from the bondage of sin, we know the Truth & the Truth set us free & transforms us into His Image. Light begets light, in whom there is no darkness at all.
causing you Philippians 2:13 Hebrews 13:21 "obviously this is not sinning".
Grace be to you
Part one
Thank you for your caring and concerned reply, many are not in agreement with understanding this subject, and as long as we address it with caring and love to not let it divide us. All I can do is give the understanding I have received from my prayer and study with an open heart.
John 8:34 The Greek word poie translated as committeth means continuing the actions of sin, being the servant of sin. They were not willing to accept Jesus as their Messiah and come in repentance, not that they would not sin. 1 John 3:6-10 As long as we abide in Him we are in a relationship walking in the light.
Does this mean we will not sin? No, if we are abiding in Him, we are living a repentant life and in obedience, not a slave to sin but a slave to Christ. In verse 8 we have that Greek word poie we are not practicing and continuing in sin not in repentance. Same in verse 9 poieo commit, the children of God are manifest, they are being known by following and being obedient.
Gal. 5-9 we have had 2000 years of leaven that we can see everywhere the whole lump is almost bloated. Rom 6:1,2,6,14,15,16,18,22 These are about not to continue in sin, sinning without thought or repentance. When we accept Jesus and are baptized, we are justified and made righteous no longer a servant to sin.
Does that mean we never sin again, No, we are dead and free from sin as long as we are obedient Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. We must remain faithful and obedient, if not we will be responsible and have to pay for our sins. Rom. 8:2 as long as we abide in Jesus, we have life and are free from the penalty of death the strength of sin is the law. Hebrews 10:10,14,17,18,26,29,39 My understanding of this chapter is written to those of the house of Israel that some who had become a Christian were falling back to the old law.
See part two,
Part two,
The heart of it is Heb.10:23-27 the same as for us today we are to hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering or forsake, if we do not hold fast, we will not be in God's grace and our sins will no longer be covered and we will pay at the judgment. Phill. 2:13 Heb. 13:21 is God's work of sanctification.
Quote: (Ronald, have you ever had an unction that cross your own will, telling you not to do or say something & show you what to do or to say? & if not heeded to, condemn you for it? Or maybe you were in a tryst state, & say or did something & later Holy Spirit/ Grace convicted you of wrong? This is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, Grace.)
I agree and I do not think I have said anything that is contradictory of it. As long as we are in the grace of God walking in the light not in the flesh our sins will be forgiven and our salvation secure.
If we believe, If we abide in Jesus, if ye keep my commandments, if we endure, if thou continue in his goodness, if ye keep in memory, if we faint not, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end, if ye endure chastening, If we confess our sins, he that endureth to the end shall be saved, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,
These are things that we must do, our responsibility, our obedience, there are more. We cannot earn our salvation it is a free gift by the grace of God through the faith of Jesus. We are to be obedient and if we are until the end, we will be in the grace of God covered by the blood of Christ and all our sins will be blotted out. If we are not, we will be cut off Rom. 11:22, and be under the penalty of sin and we know what that is. A Person who was saved, a Christian, can turn from Christ and return to sin.
Our difference I see, is my understanding is a Christian can if they do not endure and go back and willfully sin unrepentant will lose their salvation and the gift of eternal life.
God bless,
RLW
Your opening statement is welcome & much appreciated,
I see that your knowledge of God is from the letter, this is contrary to the Scriptures
Its a knowledge without the Spirit & Life oF Christ, its fruit is a form of godliness without the power to be truly godly
Meaning; it does take away one sins.
Ronald;
how can one "be a slave of Jesus & continue in sin?"
quoting you;
"we have had 2000 years of leaven that we can see everywhere the whole lump is almost bloated."
This is evident token of what the letter produces &
would you consider yourselve a part of this bloatation in continuing to sin?
Rom 6:1,2,6,14,15,16,18,22
"These are about not to continue in sin, sinning without thought or repentance."
Where does it imply this? Are you saying your in premediation to sin and repent later? & if not how do you know you will get a chance to repent? Not to mention that godly sorrow of repentance is an adhorrance in oneself & a resignation of spirit in total reliance on the Grace of God to not commit it again
"accept Jesus and are baptized, "
which baptizmal are we speaking of water or fire? The fire refers to thoroughly purging the threshing floor of our hearts with
unquenchable fire, which burns up the sinful nature, the chaff, thus becoming dead unto sin
Ephesians 4:5 & becoming a partaker of the Divine Nature that does not sin having escape the corruption thru lust
" justified and made righteous no longer a servant to sin"
if you are no more a servant unto sin, then why are you still commting sin?
Ronald the knowledge that you have is not according to the Spirit of the Scriptures
this is not saying you don't have a sincere heart, but are deceived
Everyone haves their day of visitation from the Lord, when He set life & death before them, its a very solemn moment within ,
I pray that when your turn comes
you will choose life. you have a heart for God, just not the true knowledge.
Reread last thread, particularly the end. Waiting on the Lord.
Friends, don't turn away from the Lord; Hebrews 12:29
who in His tender love trys our faith, whether it be birth & grounded in the doctrines of Christ.
True faith is birth of the Spirit & purifies the heart 1John 3:3 Psalms 24:3,4 Matt 5:8
If we are experiencing tribulations as define:
properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure within ,then our Refiner has come near us & we're in the fire being refined of false doctrines, sin or for whatsoever else He purposes are, for even after we are born again of His Spirit, tribulation & suffering continues in the perfecting of our faith, though now for a different purposes.
we're experiencing Psalms 89:14
Again, don't turn away from Christ, for He has come nearer to us, to purge out the dross
Love the Fire, its separates the precious from the vile, let us not hide our head in the darkness of an hole, like an ostrich & say i don't want to talk about it.
I hope you notice I said, we, us, our, Friends we all begin as miserable sinners, but we don't have to remain sinners.
Col 1:21,22 lets press towards the high calling in Christ Jesus
in love & truth
Same question to Brother Dan.
I will just ask one question and you can answer it to yourself. Can you say and confess from the day you accepted Jesus as your Savior and was baptized you have not committed any sin? Is that true? If you cannot answer yes, it is true I have not committed any sin since I accepted Jesus as my Savior and was baptized, your debate is fruitless.
No more replies on this subject.
RLW
Thank you, I do agree.
God bless,
RLW
Part 6.
This section I will attempt to address those scriptures you presented suggesting one can lose his Salvation.
Hebrews 3:12-13.
Verse 12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Well, if there is an evil heart of unbelief, and deceitfulness of sin. THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED!
1 John 1:7.
Ronald, I don't grasp you here. This is not a verse saying you can lose Salvation.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, if we are in the light we are saved. If we are not in the light, we are not saved.
2 Peter 2:20.
Look at 2 Peter 2:22. These are dogs, NOT SONS! This is the same group described in the previous verses!
Take it from 2 Peter 2:9-20 to get the context.
Galatians 6:9.
Christians will go before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account for the things done in the flesh.
We are to keep sowing and in due season we will reap. this is the fruit of their labor.
He that soweth to the Spirit, sows to the spirit by the power of the Holyspirit.
Paul has just asked the Galatian Christians to be convinced, once again, that trusting their flesh in this life will only lead to corruption. Reliance on our own power only leads to death. That is true whether we trust human effort to save us by following the rituals and sacraments of the law, or by following our own selfish, sinful desires.
Salvation comes only by "planting" the Spirit. Through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of our sin.
God gives to us His own Spirit. Only that Spirit will deliver eternal life in the end.
Colossians 1:23.
Verses 21-22 states we have been reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Jude 1:24. says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
So, those who is moved away from the faith was never saved.
See Part 7.
Part 5.
You mentioned 1 Corinthians 9:27.
CASTAWAY.
The context in this verse is Paul concerned about failing to obtain his goal of winning others, He's talking about preaching, Not sinning and somehow losing Salvation! Paul's goal is to win a prize!
He's using the analogy of getting off course and being disqualified.
This clears itself up it we take this passage of scripture from verse 22.
"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
And this I do for the gospel's sake, THAT I MIGHT BE PARTAKERS THEREOF WITH YOU.
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, WHEN I HAVE PREACHED TO OTHERS, I myself should be a castaway.
(Paul is talking about rewards, he makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.)
"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved;)
See Part 6.
I understand, years ago I traveled in my work, and it takes a lot to be away from home. I will go over what you have sent, wow you have put in some time, and I know that is special. It will take me a few days I am not a young man anymore.
Have a good and safe week.
God bless,
RLW
Part 4.
PENTECOST.
This is the beginning of the Christ church, and the Gospel first went out to the Jews, Peter was talking to the local crowd. "ALL Jews" Acts 2:5 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Also Acts 2:22 and Acts 2:36.
They were celebrating Shavuot-the Feast of Weeks-also known as Hag Ha Katzir, the Feast of Harvest, and known to most of us as the Feast of Pentecost. It is worthy to note that this feast was also one of three which was important for every able-bodied male to attend in Jerusalem.
Peter was letting them know that they crucified their king and Messiah.
Then in Acts 2:37 it's important to notice their reaction and what they asked; (Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO?)
In verse 38 Peter answers them; Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This repentance was to turn from Judaism and be Identified with Christ.
They were pricked in their hearts shows a stone lifted that they stumbled over. Their baptism was their profession of faith. They were baptized by the Holyspirit during this process.
John 10:7-10 you see the Lord is calling the Jews out of Judaism.
In John 15:1 Jesus says I am the TRUE vine or "Genuine" vine. This is contrary to Israel being the degenerate vine seen in Jeremiah 2:21. John the Baptist came to Prepare the way for Lord, John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. This transition period went on throughout the early church.
They were to turn from Judaism and believe on Christ as mentioned in John 6:29.
Peter and the rest of the disciples was told to go Jerusalem to wait on power from on high. When they received that power, they begun to do the work of God.
See Part 5.
Part 3.
Christ is life,
The question is, have you died?
Are you his sheep?
What is the nature of sheep and how do they perform?
What is the role of the shepherd?
Salvation is not a performance or an acting Job. We are to be led by the Spirit and walk in it.
When we get out of line, God chastise us. He's your father and you're his son, He never abandons us. When sheep go astray the shepherd goes out looking for them. Christ is the Chief Shepherd.
John 10:3-4. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Ronald parallel John 10:9 with Joh 6:27 in part 2.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
If we have died in Christ, we should already be seeing the power of his Resurrection and not depend on those fleshly attempts that brought no fruit. (self-righteousness) in Paul's case the Law.
Philippians 3:9-16.
Christ is doing something new.
He is putting his spirit in man that he might know him and do his statutes. "First to the Jews and then to the Gentiles, forming his Church.
John 10:16.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
This brings us to Pentecost.
See Part 4.
Part 2.
Ronald, you said Salvation is a gift from God, but We cannot earn this gift, but we must receive it according to God's terms. Isn't that a contradictory statement?
What are God's terms? Isn't it believe in him whom he sent?
John 6:27-29.
27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
"Notice in verse 28 the disciple's ask what their labor is they must do.
Notice in verse 29 Jesus gives them their part!
28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
AFTER YOU PART SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE IS ESTABLISHED!
Here is the next step and source of our growth. Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Ronald, concerning Abraham.
Abraham proved his faith by his works, He was justified by faith alone.
Here's how Paul put it in Romans 10:8-11. "AND NOTICE THE LAST SENTENCE IN VERSE 11"
"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH ON HIM SHALL NOT BE ASHAMED.
See part 3.
Part 1.
Romans 8:23-32
As I promised, I would get back to you on this Salvation matter.
Sorry for such a delay.
(BY WAY OF RECAP.)
Context from the original post.
Paul is urging believers to "RECOGNIZE" you wasn't just Identified with Christ death in baptism,
You should also be Identified in his resurrection and have newness of Life.
God didn't just offer Christ as a free gift for those who believe unto Salvation. SALVATION IS A NEW LIFE.
(PAUL IS SAYING RECOGNIZE THAT SIN SHOULDN'T DOMINATE IN A BELIEVER'S LIFE.)
Does this make you perfect?
No, NOT CONDITIONALLY.
Shall we resist sin? Yes
We are perfect POSITIONALLY.
Colossians 3:1-4
We have been given an earnest of the Spirit, will be perfect CONDITIONALLY and glorified when we cast off this tabernacle/ Body of sin.
FOR CLARITY.
When I said Sanctification comes after Salvation, I want to clear that up a bit. We are Sanctified "Given Christ righteousness" That is the means of our Salvation. That is Positional Sanctification. THAT COME IMMEDIATLY!
We are hidden in Christ! We are sealed by the Holyspirit! Romans 8:23-32 sums the context of this thread perfectly.
"Conditional Sanctification" is the process we go through as WE GROW IN GRACE.
This is the imperfect condition a believer while in the body, "YET POCESSING EVERLASTING, ETERNAL SALVATION.
Your walk and works testifies of your faith and rebirth.
See part 2.
You've left a lot of Scripture to cider,
I can't get through these during the work week.
I will try this weekend if time permits.
God bless.
Part one.
Thank you, brother, we will continue in love and respect that we both will grow.
This is not an easy subject, and we must not let it divide. The one thing that concerns me is some can take this subject to mean they can never lose their salvation regardless. Some say that if a person reverts to sin again, they were never saved to begin with. I am saddened that I may not clearly explain my understanding of this.
Salvation is a process beginning with justification then sanctification and ending with glorification when we are resurrected and we shall be like Him 1 John 3:2, this is our hope.
It is not a percentage of the sins we commit; it is all our sins that will be blotted out. My understanding is salvation is a gift from God's grace, Eph. 2:8, We cannot earn this gift, but we must receive it according to God's terms.
Acts 2:37-41 is this works? No, we acknowledge our faith that Jesus was sacrificed, and His blood was shed for the remission of our sins, and we choose to be obedient in repenting of our sins. It is the same obedience as Abraham when God told him to pick up and leave his country Abraham departed and Abraham was asked to do more and he did in faith and belief in God, Rom. 4:3.
When we obey and repent of our sins we are justified, justification made righteous through the blood of Jesus 2 Cor. 5:21 Rom. 5:1-2. We move into sanctification through the Spirit of God when we are growing in the Lord. The ongoing work of God through the Spirit in our lives into the image of His Son Jesus Christ. Heb. 10:14 We are being made perfect daily by faith we strive to overcome our imperfections.
See part two.
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