Bible Discussion Thread

Jacob the deceiver. Continued discussion of how God worked through a supplanter.

Genesis 28 through 30 go through the story of Jacob after his mother thrust him out to find a wife from among her people; in this case from Laban. Jacob immediately fell for Rachel and after seven years of labor for Laban he was given a wife but he found out in the morning that it was Leah; the older sister. This was not his fault; but nonetheless, God recognized the marriage. In fact; Jacob's attitude toward her in the seven year further wait for Leah (because of Laban's deception) caused Leah to bear many children as she was despised and turned to God for direction. She gave glory to God; and some versions seem to indicate her prayers were answered; after six kids God finally opened Rachel's womb; but not before she had him sleep with the handmaiden for several children who would later be part of the 12 tribes. We should learn here that when we despise someone for somebody else God can bless the person as he is just (as with Leah). God's purposes were done with Jacob's actions; or despite them. Eventually Jacob had a sort of forgiveness and understanding with Esau; his actions may have prevented him from carrying out his plans to kill him out of jealousy. Jacob also found ways to get revenge on Laban for cheating him many years; again the Lord's will was done but not through any righteousness on Jacob's part necessarily. His struggle with God in Genesis 32:22-32 shows a tenacity perhaps unmatched in all history; that a mere man could wrestle with God all night (probably Christ preincarnate) and only through the hip wound the wrestling match was ended. That tenacity for a blessing is something we all can look at as something to emulate in our prayers!

Genesis 31:34 shows how Rachel hid her household gods; something God could have destroyed her and Jacob for. The Lord at that time overlooked it but who knows how much more blessing she could have had without them?

Yes, God chooses to work through us, flawed people. He is sovereign and our sinful ways cannot thwart His righteous will. What He wills will be accomplished even if it is done through the actions of sinful people.

Jacob is a good example of this. If he had not fled to Laban's home and country, Esau would probably have killed him. In the process of getting there and returning home (20 years later) God revealed Himself to Jacob personally on a number of occasions. He must have been told about God from his grandfather, Abraham and father, Isaac, but knowing God personally came through his trials, failings, and eventual surrender to the directions of God leading Him back to his family in the land God promised to Abraham. Yet, even when back in Canaan, he was not there until he died. He moved to Egypt under Joseph's protection. This move brought about the centuries of bondage in Egypt prophesied to Abraham.

Then we have Moses, the deliverer who had to flee Egypt to Midian and spend 40 years tending sheep before God calls him to lead His people out of Egypt. What happened to Moses in those 40 years we really do not know. But we can pretty much assume that God was preparing Moses to be the prophet who leads the nation of Israel back to Canaan. What influence was Jethro to Moses concerning who the Most High was? Did Moses worship the Most High with Jethro prior to the burning bush experience? Did Aaron visit Moses at any other time besides the time spoken of in Exodus? The adverse circumstances of Moses' life were ordained by God to bring everything into alignment with the history God wanted to occur.

The time spent in Egypt allowed for the fullness of the transgression of the Amorites to occur and so be readied to be wiped out by the Israelites as judgment for what the people of the Amorites had chosen of their own free will. Their rebellion was so complete that their destruction was God's will.

Amazing to think about these things.

Sister GiGI:

I am not you adversary, just a living stone, as are you, in the HOUSE God BUILT.

You comments in first two paragraphs were DEAD ON, GOD'S PURPOSE, being fulfilled.

Yet, in your third paragraph, you attribute the demise of the Amorites to THEIR FREE WILL, instead of GOD'S PURPOSE.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things FOR HIMSELF, yea, EVEN the WICKED for the day of evil.

They had no FREE WILL to do anything other than the APPOINTED WILL of GOD.

Romans 9:17 For the scriptures SAITH UNTO PHARAOH, for this PURPOSE have I raised you up ......

Isaiah 44:8 That saith of Cyrus, you are my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure .....

Amazing to think about all these things.

In LOVE, for the truth God has PURPOSED for us.

God Bless YOU!

Hello Jordyn.

I guess we differ on what we consider to be free will. I believe that our free will is still intact, but because of the sinful nature it is corrupted and depraved of being able to choose good without the grace of God. Each person uses their free will whenever they sin.

In the case of the of the Amorites, they continued to choose rebellion against God without repentance. God is omniscient and he foreknew the wickedness of the Amorites and when their degree of sin will be at its full (at the time of the Israelites coming back to Canaan) Just because God foreknew this doesn't mean that the Amorites did not have free will to continue to sin against God. It seems that you have surmised this to be the case. God does direct history to accomplish His purposes and will, not because He forces some to be wicked and others to be favored, but because He knows all things and is also all powerful. He can cause events to happen in order to fulfill His purposes, but He does not choose sin for anyone. He allows it to occur, and in His foreknowledge, brings together the people and events to bring judgment on the wicked or blessing on the favored.

As a side note, Jordyn, excuse me if I am wrong. But your writing sounds a lot like Brother Earl. Is this Earl once again under a new screen name? It is o.k. if it is. I don't mind. Just wondering.

Yeah you summed up things better than me and that without much preparation. It would be nice to find someone on occasion to collaborate with; there is some tough resistance here at times. I always try to bolster things with as much scripture as possible.

Getting an impartial critical analysis of my writing would be helpful for both exhortation and encouragement. I am not sure what I should put more research into; more or less I just come up with ideas daily and go to town. May not be the best way to do things.

The OSAS definitely had some comments; the Pre Trib rapture stuff probably more than anything. It is hard to fathom those who don't understand verses that indicate this; I have written a number in the past. My viewpoint still leaves the possibility of some being left behind; but I am not dogmatic about it. Hopefully whenever anyone has an argument here with myself or anyone else on the forum scriptures can b used as a counter argument; although I have seen little evidence lately. Seems like some are in a very detailed storyline which I can't really follow; or else they are scant on scripture. Some of course I don't respond to for various reasons.

If there are any subjects you think I should tackle let me know I have probably run low on ideas until I hear something new at church or another real life situation comes up.

Agape Rich P.

Richard, Hello again,

I wanted to respond to your request for topics. I often try to think of topics that I would like to see discussed here, but often do not come up with anything for myself. This is why I often do not begin threads (except commenting on the OT readings I been working through). I like it when others begin conversations here and I prefer to read some responses before I chime in. I would rather have someone else speak some of what I am thinking than myself because I know that I am very "wordy" and thorough. So, I want to leave it up to others to contribute much of the time so that I don't write what others may be thinking. I would rather they have first chance at speaking.

So, I do not have any topics to suggest to you. For me, if I were to choose topics, my heart normally goes to the attributes and character of God, the person and work of Jesus, how the Holy Spirit works in us, and the wonders of the life to come. If we grow in our knowledge and understanding of these doctrines (Scriptural truths) then we can mature in our faith and hope in God who is the true object of our devotion, worship, and motivation for living godly lives in this sinful world.

Yeah I guess I should stick to the attributes of God which of course encompasses everything to some respect. I appreciate your analysis; albeit I am surprised at some of your conclusions (at least that you didn't challenge me more in some aspects). It does get tiresome after a while getting into what some call 2nd or 3rd tier matters that are not primary doctrinal issues.

I appreciate your online friendship and prayers. Am finally getting to work next week so probably will be busier and post less often. Hoping to continue to be a witness to my boss as well as another worker and others there.

I hope your husband is able to pray with you and maybe has some ideas here as well.

Looking forward to seeing your next post.

Rich P

Hello again, Richard. I would like you to respond more to your comment about being surprised by some of my conclusions. I would appreciate some specifics so I can consider these before the Lord. I value your insight.

I'm sure you are aware of my view on the Pretrib Rapture; and dispensationalism and OSAS. No need to elaborate since you have read many of my posts. I don't really care-I have had friends in a church I attended in Pittsburgh that are amillenialists; but loved the Lord and were more interested in His coming than those who call themselves PreTribbers in the other churches I have attended. Others I knew were in the Reformed church and Post Mils.

You probably know that I espouse covenant as well as dispensational viewpoints; I see free will as not contradicting predestination as God works through things just like; for example he did with Judas to accomplish His purposes. And of course a certain number will be saved and damned in the end; which God foreknew even if it wasn't what they call "double predestination" for someone to be lost.

What I am really interested in is whatever discernment the Lord has given me into the spiritual dimension. It leads me to say things that are not readily understood and I have never attempted to grow in that area largely because it isn't the most popular gift to have. Also of course we all want to be ready whenever we get to the time we are to be absent from the body or Christ comes for His church.

Again your comments on God's attributes and such..I am finishing my Zechariah study then will try to delve into your suggestions. It seems there are less questions of late; at least of significance-not sure if it is a trend. Finding it header; therefore to delve into topics people are interested in. I'm trying to include things I learn from news; my church and personal stories. I have a particular calling in terms of speaking out against divorce and remarriage from personal experience when a spouse is still alive. Since being dogmatic could take me off this forum; maybe you could pray where I can find a venue for it.

Guess I won't say anymore here God has made this clear to me though as a calling.

Agape Rich P

Hello again, Richard,

I hope you don't mind me commenting further.

I understand that this is a discussion forum and it is good to lead off threads with topics that can lend well to discussion.

But also, sometimes the Spirit gives us discernment to lead a thread with a topic that He knows will not get much discussion. But the purpose is to just bring out topic or viewpoint that He wants said whether others respond or not, either affirming the view or disagreeing with it.

I do not often feel led to start off a thread, so I don't. I don't always feel led to respond to a post, so I don't. But oftentimes I do feel the Holy Spirit prompting me to respond, and I do. I try not to be in the discussion for myself, but for what the Holy Spirit desires. My viewpoint isn't what is important; obedience to the Spirit is. So, I try to do this His way.

I like to read what others post and think on what they write. Some I agree with wholeheartedy, others I disagree with wholeheartedly. Some I am undecided on and others are not pressing issues for me. Others are very concerning for me, such as when I read things that blaspheme God and His character, misrepresent who He is as revealed in Scripture, and also those things that are outright heresy. These bother me deeply and I must prayerfully respond to what has been stated while continuing to pray and care for the person who stated something that is very wrong and dangerous to other believers.

All in all, I have learned a great deal, have needed to study Scripture more closely on some topics to discover what is really being taught in Scriptures, and am encouraged that so many people truly have a passion for knowing God, His truth, and His will.

Hi Richard,

Just wondering how speaking your view on divorce and remarriage would get you booted off this forum? Would it be from others reporting to admin your post? I am not sure how this forum works regarding that. When I read so many posts that promote obvious heretical doctrines concerning God and His nature, Jesus and His nature and work, and deification of man and these do not get taken down, how would someone who disapproves of remarriage after divorce for believers be worthy of censure?

I guess I would hope that people on here would not be so quick to want to silence viewpoints on here or other forums. We, as believers, need to be responsible in learning the major tenets of the Christian faith and stand firm on those, being willing to address heretical doctrines. But when it comes to topics that are not core Christian beliefs, we should be gracious and speak our minds on what we believe even when it is not the same view as another poster and not be slandered, have our maturity in Christ or trueness of our conversion be questioned. Everyone has topics that they are quite sensitive on and we should recognize these topics for ourselves so that we will resolve to approach a differing view with kindness and calmness.

The topic of OSAS is not a cardinal doctrine in my view as there are many differing views that can have biblical support for these views. They are not false teachings but what is termed heterodoxy. While I do think that the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ is a cardinal doctrine, meaning it is clearly taught in Scripture. But the teaching on the Rapture is not a cardinal doctrine. It has not been taught consistently throughout the centuries and is not explicitly taught in Scriptures. So disagreeing on this topic is one that can be permitted as long was we do not beat each other up over it. It tends to be a topic that gets people hot under the collar, but it isn't such for me.

Let's do everything in love.

Brother Richard:

Matthew 3:22...Except those days of the great tribulation be SHORTENED, no flesh could BE SAVED.

You say your pretrib

The above scripture says you CANNOT be saved till after the great tribulation.

The word says WE ARE SAVED by the RESURRECTION of Christ.

The great tribulation had to happen before Christ was RESURRECTED.

The great tribulation was from the time Christ entered the garden till he DIED on the cross.

The doctrines of men has polluted the words of God.

God Bless YOU!

Hello Richard,

Thanks for the response. Appreciated.

I do share your view on divorce and remarriage pretty much. I think there are exceptions, especially between people when one spouse abandons the marriage for someone else. It seems Jesus gives this exception. But it is not necessarily a blanket endorsement for people to rush into another relationship when this happens. God will lead such people in the way they should go.

In most churches I am aware of pastors approve of divorce and remarriage for any reason and gladly performs such remarriages. some pastors and members say that as long as one repents of the first sexual encounter as adultery then all relations after that are o.k. and not ongoing adultery. I guess they do not know how preposterous this sounds. If one murders another and repents, then, according to their reasoning, this person can habitually kill other people after that and it is not sinful or murder. Or, if one has one abortion, and then repents, then they can continue to have abortions whenever they wish and it is not sinful or killing another person. I could go on and on giving absurd examples of this reasoning. But people will say that remarriage is different than other sins. I ask "How" and they usually cannot give me an answer.

With all of this said, I think that people who find themselves in a marriage that is failing are in such a hurtful and vulnerable place. And when the divorce does happen, then it is very difficult for some to face the rest of their lives as a single person. But I believe God will give the grace to any who wish to live obediently to what the Lord has commanded on this subject. But it may be a difficult road to travel.

My big question would be: "What do we do about those who have remarried against the Lord's command?"

...they must live their lives without human love , affection and comfort ? We know from a wealth of experience , what happens to people who are not permitted to give and receive human affection and romance , just look at the catholic church ! People who have had to live without physical love ( and I mean love not sex ) are deeply affected by this , it can cause all sorts of mental health issues . As a baby , and I mean a baby , i was denied affection . No one was allowed to cuddle me , I was only held when I was fed . As a consequence I'm not much of a hugger :) . It's a dangerous thing to deny a human the comfort of a loved ones cuddle and body heat . I would say that I am not to judge . They will stand before their Redeemer and He will pass judgement . I shall hold my peace .

Sister Jema:

Most believe what man says not what God says.

God's words are always fulfilled.

John 5:43 I (the man, Jesus Christ) come in my Father's NAME and ye receive me (the spirit of truth) not: if another MAN come is his OWN NAME, him ye will receive.

You know them by their fruits.

Not their appearance, the words from their lips.

Isaiah 57:19 ..... I CREATE the FRUIT of the LIPS ..... ONLY when one is BAPTISED into the NAME of Jesus ...... does ones lips speak the same words as OUR LORD, the overseer of out lips.

Psalms 17:4 Concerning the works of men, by the words of THY LIPS (that that may be ONE as WE ARE ONE John 17:22) I have keep me from the paths of the destroyer.

Psalms 12:4 Who hath said.... our lips are our own......

God Bless YOU!

God Bless YOU!

Hi Jema,

Thank you for your reply. I agree that this topic is a difficult one, especially in this time.

It is God that people are to answer to for their choices and not to the opinions of others.

Have you read Richard's reply? Perhaps you have something to say to his post since he seems to have given an answer to my question, too.

Hi Gigi , yes I have read Richards reply and he is totally entitled to believe what he does :) . With regard to the lack of divorces in the Bible , it's worth remembering that in Old Testament times there wasn't much need of it , if a man tired of his wife , he didn't divorce her , he just married another one , which of course is not permissible in our culture or religion . On the other side of the coin , if a woman was tired of her husband , she might be glad that he gets himself another wife as that would keep him occupied and away from her :) . I imagine that being able to be married to more than one person at a time , greatly changes the circumstances and therefore affects the different opinions on this matter . The Old Testament times and marriage customs were extremely different to the times that we live in now so it's very hard to compare them .

Jema,

I agree that the OT customs of men having multiple wives and concubines/harems is unlike those of us in western civilization today. Jesus did clarify that in the beginning it was one man one wife. ( Matt. 19:8)(people marrying and divorcing and remarrying)

But due to the hardness of people's hearts, Moses allowed divorce. But Jesus did speak pretty plainly about divorce and remarriage and its relationship to adultery. Today, there is a hardening of people's hearts again concerning marriage, divorce, and remarriage. But just because many believe it is fine and most who divorce remarry doesn't make it right in today's world. I believe what Jesus said concerning divorce and remarriage. AND I will always be sensitive to those who are living against Jesus' standard, but I will not agree with them that it is morally o.k.

On this topic we will disagree, Jema. We can move on to other matters. I am glad you shared your view and I, too, want to be compassionate to others, but without compromising what Jesus has set as a correct moral standard.

Thank Gigi :) I was careful not to say wether I think divorce and remarriage are wrong or right , my position genuinely is , that it's not my place to judge this matter , if it is a sin then it's one of many that are commited every day by Christians who will all have to give account of themselves before Christ . He is my judge and theirs and yours . Only God is pure and understands each of us , better than we understand ourselves .

Hi Gigi , yes this is a hot topic ! Human relationships always are because they involve human emotions which can be extremely powerful . My congregation in the past has been very strict on this matter . Brothers and sisters have even been disfellowshiped because they haven't married people from our denomination . As the decades have rolled by we are very slightly more lenient , but only slightly ! With regards to what to do about people who have married , as you put it , outside of the Lord's will : firstly we cannot be one hundred per cent sure that that is the case , people might disagree with me on this I'm sure :) . Remember that we are not under the law . When I first joined my congregation as a single young woman , a brother was interested in me and his wife , who had been a member , had left and divorced him but not for adultery . As it happened I was not conflicted about this because I wasn't attracted to him . However I did notice that his affection for me caused a stir among the other members . My best friend in the congregation was an elderly sister who had been married twice , ( to fellow members ) her first husband died and her second was divorced because his wife left him for another man . When she married her second husband they were both disfellowshiped instantly without any discussion . This was heart breaking to them as they are both devoted to God . After about a year , discussions started , they had to admit that what they had done was against scripture and repent but ! They were not forced to divorce , this is just adding sin to sin , plus I don't think that they would have divorced . Personally , I don't believe that falling in love is ever a sin , some times unadvisable :) but there is no sin in genuine love . We have had members choose to marry ' against scripture ' and have just left us rather than be kicked out :( this is very sad to me .God brings people into our lives for a reason , who are we to tell fellow Christians that...see 2

It seems scriptural to me that remarriage when a spouse is alive causes the other person to commit adultery as well as the person instigating it. The "escape" clause fits in with Joseph and an espousal; hence the word fornication is used; whereas adultery is used in the next sentence. Corinthians and ROmans explains a woman remarrying when her husband is alive is an adulterer but not when he has died. It seems iron clad to me.

In any case; someone should tell a person to get out of such a marriage God simply doesn't recognize it as a covenant. I had a situation where I could have married someone but God made it clear that I couldn't do it. Others have left such marriages as well. That's how I see it; again I can't say it dogmatically as pastors themselves won't teach it. It is more than cooincidence that I found 2 churches that preached against divorce and remarriage (and I couldn't find any in this state online). They actually haven't preached it yet but the Pastor in my church now at least believes that for Christians. As for nonchristians we have JOhn the Baptist against the marriage of a brother's wife which got him killed; and Abraham and his wife twice who God warned others trying to take her as a "sister" that it was wrong (also Isaac attempted this with Rebekah). Also notice multi marriages but NO divorces for any saints or even sinners in the Bible even in cases like Esther with Vashti who the king ignored; or the wife of Job who told him to curse God and die; she apparently produced more kids later. I don't see abandonment as justification; again seperate or be reconciled.

Sorry if I sound too dogmatic can't see it any other way. I told a friend who is a new pastor that advised someone that did this that he should have told her to leave the guy but he just reassured her. He asked my opinion; don't think he will do that again.

I have much more I could say but unless I can write you privately I suppose this will be all for this forum.

Richard, Agreed.

I wish we could contact one another in a private way on here. I have suggested that to the ADMIN but did not receive a response back. I am sure it is possible to create a way to converse privately without giving out e-mail addresses, but instead using just our screen names but in a private aspect of this forum.

Have a good day, Richard.

Richard,

I do find your posts interesting and well thought through. Thanks

The topics of OSAS and the RAPTURE are two topics that get many responses and that is good. I am one who have not been convinced by the Scriptures dispensationalists give for the rapture. Since I can find no Scripture stating it will occur or that it was a false teaching at the time of the NT writers, then there would be no Scriptures also that openly refute it. I just go by what Jesus said in Matt. 24 and the other gospels that present the Olivet discourse. He does not speak of coming twice, oncer for the rapture and again at the end. He speaks of coming at the end. So I believe His Second Coming is a one time, not progressive coming and that it comes at the end of historical time-the end of the age. Then comes judgment.

As to OSAS, there are Scriptures that support this doctrine and those that refute it, so I am not hard and fast on this topic.

Sometimes people use Scripture wisely to support what they present here. Other times people post many Scriptures and not much commentary. Others just speak their mind without citing Scriptures. I think all of these approaches are good and helpful. Not everyone agrees with me on this, but that is their prerogative to do so.

I enjoy responding to your posts. They make me think and check out the Scriptures. So, thank you for your input here. I love learning on here.