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Don't misunderstand whay I said. When I say that to him only it is a sin, I mean that it is not a sin but in his conscience it is considered a sin. God will not damn him, because he wrongly believes it is a sin, but he damns himself (wrongly)
And something else. In greek faith and belief is the same word. So for better understanding of that verse, substitute the word faith with the word belief.
As I said "Christ is truth and by faith we believe him! Why? Because the Holyspirit testifies of him!
Is faith 'not" a gift of God? Yes it is.
Is it not caused by the Holyspirit?
Yes, it is persuasion.
It's NOT man's faith we're discussing here but Christ faith.
For example;
Take 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 and harmonize it with your meaning of faith and you will see "IF" it directly means belief then it doesn't change anything according to the context we're debating.
That what you believe in has to be given for us to have faith and trust in God!
Vs 9) But as it is written, EYE HATH NOT SEEN, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Vs 10) But GOD HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.)
"That's Persuasion! (9 Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: ) [ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1]
IF YOU TRANSLATED THAT TO BELIEF, IT STILL NOT OF YOURSELF!
Vs 11. For WHAT MAN KNOWETH THE THINGS OF A MAN, SAVE THE SPIRIT OF MAN WHICH IS IN HIM? EVEN SO THE THINGS OF GOD KNOWETH NO MAN, BUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
There's your source of belief/faith/Persuasion Giannis.
Vs 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.
Vs 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:
I just wanted to give my understanding on " And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin"
Before going to that I just want to clarify some things I said.
Firstly I wrote that "faith" and "belief" is the same in the grk language. So when one reads the Bible they have to distinguish in which verses it means faith and where it means belief. The text from Liberty university (I found that it is one of the most important christian unis in the USA) gives a good account of what is meant by the word "pistis" (faith) in the text of the NT.
Also as a grk person I could never associate "pistis" with "persuation", although I can see how faith emerges from being persuaded to believe something we can not see.
Undoubtably one can not live a sinless life in the sense that they will never ever sin. We see that in our everyday lives, don't we? We become sinless just because Christ erases our sins, He doesn't see them. when we sin and then repent. Repentance is needed so that God grands His grace and mercy. That means that one strives to live righteously and when they sin (because they can avoid doing sins) they repent and God forgives them.
Now going back to that " ... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin". I think that has to be dealt with in accordance to what Paul is trying to tell them and to whom it concerns. Paul says that there are people who consider as a sin something which is not a sin, like not celebrating the day of Sabbath. Is that a sin? No it isn't. But in their mind it is a sin. So does it become a sin? No it doesn't and Paul concludes (and here the word faith has to take the meaning of belief) that for those people something which doesn't come from their belief (is not of their belief) of doing right, to them it is a sin, in their mind it is a sin, although God doesn't see it like a sin. And those people feel guilty although they shouldn't.
I believe we all agree on what you have shared " The doubt and conscience of the person causes him to sin being that he thinks eating meat ect as a sin, However, "so he's not persuaded of and by the grace of God imputed to him.
I would be cautious to interpret faith that way, when I look up faith in the strongs it says persuasion, That Parallels with Ephesians 2:8-9.
If I translated it as belief, "then that which I believe in is persuaded by God.
However simply believing in something doesn't always work out being that one can be wrong and I doubt God persuaded that.
I was emphasizing that those who believe you can live a perfect life in this body they might want to consider that verse.
I don't think brother that any greek person understands that word as "persuation". It actually comes etymologically from the verb "peitho" which means "persuade, convince", but as I said nobody here understands it with such meaning.
When this word is applied to a person or God, ie "pistos", it means faithful, trustworthy.
The opposite to "pistis" is "apistia". This word is found in Hebrews 3:12, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief (apistia), in departing from the living God.". So you see here the KJV rightly translates it as unbelief, not lack of faith.
Thanks for your internet research Giannis but there were those back in Jesus day that spoke Greek that may not have understood it as well.
Speaking Greek doesn't give us a lock on scripture.
However I didn't need a Greek translation to come to any conclusion of where "Christ"faith comes from.
If wanted to see how it's used in a passage I use the scripture as a whole and look for consistency.
I also coordinate that with the strongs and try using that same consistency with the definition presented.
Greek:
Transliteration: pistis
Pronunciation: pis'-tis
Definition: From G3982; persuasion that is credence; moral conviction (of religious truth or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher) especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance belief believe faith fidelity.
I quoted Paul in Romans "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
I was stating that that is a hard sin to escape if one says we can live a life without sin.
I'm a bit confused where you came on at this point, however I will address my take on faith and where I disagree with you.
The source of this faith or the source of this belief "If you want to call it that. It's still a fruit and it's from God.
As branches do, we bare the fruit!
We don't produce it!
It is Christ faith IN us.
Faith is a fruit, belief is not.
Christ is TRUTH! By faith we believe him! Why? Because the Holyspirit testifies of him! THIS IS PERSUASION.
However, every belief is not energized by God. Man's belief/faith takes "showing" Sight ect..
God given faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. This is faith in a person! "Our Lord Jesus Christ. .
Definition of the grk word "pistis" (Eng. faith) I found on the net:
1. wiki - faith, trust and reliability
2.Oxford University, Faculty of Classics - Modern understandings of faith depend heavily on Augustine of Hippo, who defines it (De trin. 13.2.5) as fides quae and fides qua, belief in the body of Christian doctrine and the faith which takes place in the heart and mind of the believer. In 2015 I published Roman Faith and Christian Faith, which argues that the earliest Christians understood pistis/fides very differently. Faith was a relationship of trust and faithfulness between God and human beings, which also shaped relationships between human beings, the authority structure of churches, and the way Christians imagined the kingdom of heaven. Christians were unique in putting trust at the heart of their relationship with God and Christ, but their understanding and practice of pistis/fides were continuous with those of contemporary Greeks, Romans and Jews. -
3. Liberty University, (I don't know which uni is this, but it is a University). - The Meaning of Pistis according to Greek Lexicons and NT Usage BDAG, considered the best Greek lexicon for NT scholarly study, gives three basic categories of meanings for pistis in the NT and early Christian literature: (1) "that which evokes trust and faith," such as "faithfulness" and "fidelity" (BDAG cites six NT passages with this specific meaning); (2) "believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted," meaning "trust" or "confidence" or "faith" (more than 180 NT passages are cited with this meaning, almost all of which refer to faith in God, Christ, the Gospel, or God's promises-this is by far the dominant meaning of pistis in the NT according to BDAG); and (3) "that which is believed"-the body of faith or belief (thirteen passages are cited with this meaning). -
Well Spencer on the internet one can find many definitions of the word "pistis" (faith) apart from Strong's concordance.
Spencer.
Don't misunderstand whay I said. When I say that to him only it is a sin, I mean that it is not a sin but in his conscience it is considered a sin. God will not damn him, because he wrongly believes it is a sin, but he damns himself (wrongly)
And something else. In greek faith and belief is the same word. So for better understanding of that verse, substitute the word faith with the word belief.
Part 2.
As I said "Christ is truth and by faith we believe him! Why? Because the Holyspirit testifies of him!
Is faith 'not" a gift of God? Yes it is.
Is it not caused by the Holyspirit?
Yes, it is persuasion.
It's NOT man's faith we're discussing here but Christ faith.
For example;
Take 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 and harmonize it with your meaning of faith and you will see "IF" it directly means belief then it doesn't change anything according to the context we're debating.
That what you believe in has to be given for us to have faith and trust in God!
Vs 9) But as it is written, EYE HATH NOT SEEN, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Vs 10) But GOD HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.)
"That's Persuasion! (9 Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: ) [ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1]
IF YOU TRANSLATED THAT TO BELIEF, IT STILL NOT OF YOURSELF!
Vs 11. For WHAT MAN KNOWETH THE THINGS OF A MAN, SAVE THE SPIRIT OF MAN WHICH IS IN HIM? EVEN SO THE THINGS OF GOD KNOWETH NO MAN, BUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
There's your source of belief/faith/Persuasion Giannis.
Vs 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.
Vs 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Where is the energy behind your faith? or belief?
God bless.
That was very well explained.
God bless you.
I completely agree with the way you see it .
I just wanted to give my understanding on " And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin"
Before going to that I just want to clarify some things I said.
Firstly I wrote that "faith" and "belief" is the same in the grk language. So when one reads the Bible they have to distinguish in which verses it means faith and where it means belief. The text from Liberty university (I found that it is one of the most important christian unis in the USA) gives a good account of what is meant by the word "pistis" (faith) in the text of the NT.
Also as a grk person I could never associate "pistis" with "persuation", although I can see how faith emerges from being persuaded to believe something we can not see.
Undoubtably one can not live a sinless life in the sense that they will never ever sin. We see that in our everyday lives, don't we? We become sinless just because Christ erases our sins, He doesn't see them. when we sin and then repent. Repentance is needed so that God grands His grace and mercy. That means that one strives to live righteously and when they sin (because they can avoid doing sins) they repent and God forgives them.
Now going back to that " ... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin". I think that has to be dealt with in accordance to what Paul is trying to tell them and to whom it concerns. Paul says that there are people who consider as a sin something which is not a sin, like not celebrating the day of Sabbath. Is that a sin? No it isn't. But in their mind it is a sin. So does it become a sin? No it doesn't and Paul concludes (and here the word faith has to take the meaning of belief) that for those people something which doesn't come from their belief (is not of their belief) of doing right, to them it is a sin, in their mind it is a sin, although God doesn't see it like a sin. And those people feel guilty although they shouldn't.
I believe we all agree on what you have shared " The doubt and conscience of the person causes him to sin being that he thinks eating meat ect as a sin, However, "so he's not persuaded of and by the grace of God imputed to him.
I would be cautious to interpret faith that way, when I look up faith in the strongs it says persuasion, That Parallels with Ephesians 2:8-9.
If I translated it as belief, "then that which I believe in is persuaded by God.
However simply believing in something doesn't always work out being that one can be wrong and I doubt God persuaded that.
I was emphasizing that those who believe you can live a perfect life in this body they might want to consider that verse.
Thanks my brother,
God bless.
I don't think brother that any greek person understands that word as "persuation". It actually comes etymologically from the verb "peitho" which means "persuade, convince", but as I said nobody here understands it with such meaning.
When this word is applied to a person or God, ie "pistos", it means faithful, trustworthy.
The opposite to "pistis" is "apistia". This word is found in Hebrews 3:12, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief (apistia), in departing from the living God.". So you see here the KJV rightly translates it as unbelief, not lack of faith.
Part 1.
Thanks for your internet research Giannis but there were those back in Jesus day that spoke Greek that may not have understood it as well.
Speaking Greek doesn't give us a lock on scripture.
However I didn't need a Greek translation to come to any conclusion of where "Christ"faith comes from.
If wanted to see how it's used in a passage I use the scripture as a whole and look for consistency.
I also coordinate that with the strongs and try using that same consistency with the definition presented.
Greek:
Transliteration: pistis
Pronunciation: pis'-tis
Definition: From G3982; persuasion that is credence; moral conviction (of religious truth or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher) especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance belief believe faith fidelity.
I quoted Paul in Romans "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
I was stating that that is a hard sin to escape if one says we can live a life without sin.
I'm a bit confused where you came on at this point, however I will address my take on faith and where I disagree with you.
The source of this faith or the source of this belief "If you want to call it that. It's still a fruit and it's from God.
As branches do, we bare the fruit!
We don't produce it!
It is Christ faith IN us.
Faith is a fruit, belief is not.
Christ is TRUTH! By faith we believe him! Why? Because the Holyspirit testifies of him! THIS IS PERSUASION.
However, every belief is not energized by God. Man's belief/faith takes "showing" Sight ect..
God given faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. This is faith in a person! "Our Lord Jesus Christ. .
See Part 2.
Definition of the grk word "pistis" (Eng. faith) I found on the net:
1. wiki - faith, trust and reliability
2.Oxford University, Faculty of Classics - Modern understandings of faith depend heavily on Augustine of Hippo, who defines it (De trin. 13.2.5) as fides quae and fides qua, belief in the body of Christian doctrine and the faith which takes place in the heart and mind of the believer. In 2015 I published Roman Faith and Christian Faith, which argues that the earliest Christians understood pistis/fides very differently. Faith was a relationship of trust and faithfulness between God and human beings, which also shaped relationships between human beings, the authority structure of churches, and the way Christians imagined the kingdom of heaven. Christians were unique in putting trust at the heart of their relationship with God and Christ, but their understanding and practice of pistis/fides were continuous with those of contemporary Greeks, Romans and Jews. -
3. Liberty University, (I don't know which uni is this, but it is a University). - The Meaning of Pistis according to Greek Lexicons and NT Usage BDAG, considered the best Greek lexicon for NT scholarly study, gives three basic categories of meanings for pistis in the NT and early Christian literature: (1) "that which evokes trust and faith," such as "faithfulness" and "fidelity" (BDAG cites six NT passages with this specific meaning); (2) "believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted," meaning "trust" or "confidence" or "faith" (more than 180 NT passages are cited with this meaning, almost all of which refer to faith in God, Christ, the Gospel, or God's promises-this is by far the dominant meaning of pistis in the NT according to BDAG); and (3) "that which is believed"-the body of faith or belief (thirteen passages are cited with this meaning). -
Well Spencer on the internet one can find many definitions of the word "pistis" (faith) apart from Strong's concordance.
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