Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Chris,

The fire that shall never be quenched means it is irreversible. Look at the remains of sodom and Gomorrah that can be seen today. There are outlines of the buildings in the area near the Dead Sea. Archeological proof of the wrath of God.

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and its outlying towns have been a permanent destruction. This is an object lesson for us.

Mark 9:43

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

Hi Chris,

Again , this verse that you listed does not speak of the soul burning for eternity.

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt 5:29 KJV.

Hell is a finality. It's the end of the road. The "whole body" is the body along with the soul.

Hi Chris, This verse you mentioned does not speak of the soul's eternal burning. It speaks of destruction.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Matthew 5:22

Hell fire is the same thing as destruction. For example, if my house were on fire, it would destroyed. And, once it burns down, there would be nothing left but smoke rising from the debris.

Nicely put , thank you .

Hi Chris,

The "immaterial parts of man that remain accountable to God"? Are you talking about floating ghosts here?

The body and soul TOGETHER make the man. Man cannot exist without his body.

Hi Chris, this comment is in reply to what happens to the condemned soul.

The following quotes the New World Encyclopedia on Gehenna.

"The valley forms the southwest border of ancient Jerusalem that stretches from the foot of Mt. Zion to the Kidron Valley. It is first mentioned in Joshua 15:8. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. In addition, this valley was frequently not controlled by the Jewish authority within the city walls; it is traditionally held that this valley was used as a place of religious child-sacrifice to Moloch by the Canaanites outside the city (comp. Jer. 2: 23).

Like Sheol, Gehenna is sometimes translated as Hell."

Notice: "FIRES WERE KEPT BURNING TO CONSUME THE REFUSE"

The soul that sins will be burnt up and be eternal gone. Like sodom and Gomorrah. Burnt up and gone. Ashes under our feet.

Hi Chris,

This is in response to our earlier conversation. Does the condemned soul ceases to exist or does the condemned soul burn for eternity. The below verse was an example you gave of eternal burning.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28 KJV.

This verse NOT proof of eternal burning. It IS proof that the condemned soul CEASES to exist. God destroys BOTH soul and body.

Page 2.

Yes, there is an eternal joyous life for those who submit to God, so also there is eternal suffering for those who reject Him. How do you look at these verses? Are they to be avoided, re-interpreted, just given in error, or whatever one may choose to apply to them?

These are the matters we face here in addressing core biblical issues of eternity, the trinity, second coming, etc. And they are important; how we believe them & then share the Gospel with others can prove the genuineness of their faith when turning to Christ. I believe this is one major reason that we see an over-abundance of 'spurious faith' (i.e. a faith not based on the full Gospel message of the Bible, but with a leaning towards 'turn to Jesus & all will be well with your soul & live happily ever after in His Kingdom'). This is not the reason that Jesus came from His Glory ( John 17:5) to Earth to die a sinner's death - He came to give a Divinely prepared path & a living hope for the lost sinner to not face eternal condemnation: that's why it took the Son of God to come & lay down His Life, or else why not a spotless Heaven-provided Lamb? God laid down His Life through His Son which speaks to us of Love that is truly Agape & of the seriousness of our sins before Him & the certainty of His eternal Judgement to those who spurn that Love & offer of forgiveness. I'm sorry to have written at length on this subject, as it's one that is very close to my heart, when considering the great worth & cost of our salvation, in light of the Scriptures & of my own testimony.

Hi Chris, I feel your love for God in all that you write. I want to say that, from my perspective, the difference with us Christian's dying ( compared to nonbelievers) is that we will be resurrected and our body will be rejoined to our soul. That fact makes dying, now, not as scary. Because we will sleep, and not be really dead.

Well, thank you Shabbat Keeper, but I was hoping you would have addressed some of those verses I shared that speak of an eternal condemnation & suffering. Many of us, over time, have put out those passages to those who believe as you, but unfortunately, none have given an adequate response as to their 'actual meaning'. If it were true that the Love of God is so great that it would be impossible for Him to confine any unsaved soul into a suffering eternity, my question then is, what are we to do with those Scriptures that show us to the contrary? If those Scriptures weren't there, then of course, I could certainly be persuaded to think of death & eternity as you (& others) do. But they are there & can't be avoided, no matter how much we try to diminish them or persuade our consciences that there must be some other unknown reason for them being there; seeing that Jesus Himself said what He did about eternity. I study the Bible as you do, so I hope that when you re-look at those passages, you will understand & grasp what the Scriptures actually reveal & not rely on personal perceptions & feelings, which can only cloud the Truth.

Hi Chris, in answer to you're question why don't I address the scriptures you quoted. First of all, I don't entirely follow what you are saying. Would you summarize the gist of your thoughts in one sentence? it would be easier for me. Second, I don't have hours of time to look everything up and thoughtfully respond.

Is this the gist of what your saying: the unsaved will be tormented eternally?

You're quite right, Shabbat Keeper, that would be the gist of my comments: "that the unsaved will be tormented eternally". I gave those Scriptures earlier on for you to look at & they all point to a time of final judgement, where those who die in their sins without Christ are consigned into an eternity of suffering. So when you get time, have a look at those verses/passages (found in my two page comment), & let us know how you read them - are they simply idle threatening words from Jesus, maybe words that we should overlook/avoid, or is there another meaning to them? I know the verses that you, Jema & others refer to, where death is seen as both a finality & a judgement. And if these verses only were there, I could agree with you. But they are not the only verses that speak of death & then eternity - there are other passages as well. So I would be interested in how you read those verses, so that I (and maybe others here) may know the way you understand & exegete the Scriptures. Thank you.

Just as an unrelated example: I've often given John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was", asking for comment. I have always hoped that someone who rejects the Deity of Christ (i.e. Christ came from God's Person & wasn't just a supernaturally created Being) would exegete that verse for me. But so far none have come back on it. I wonder why? Simply because it (& others such as I gave you to consider about eternal suffering), are incompatible to the beliefs that are strongly held. So, I look forward to you thoughts whenever you are able. Thank you.

Hi Chris, I will definitely try to read all the scripture you noted and get back to you with my 2 cents. Thanks for the discussion.

May Jesus continue to bless you and protect you.

Good morning brother Chris and all. Eternal suffering may be a forever consciousness of the Love of God, yet for ever separated from that Love. This time that we are in remains a gift to know Jesus Christ and him crucified as he is God's life. I agree that we cannot really consider the Gift by Jesus Christ without considering eternal damnation. This is part of the reason that the Kingdom of Peace is important, it keeps us present in the Lord as we are prone to wander towards another day. He must know us for us to know Him. My thoughts. Love to all.

Thank you brother Carleton for those thoughts: that indeed that consciousness past the grave can well include a recalling of the life once lived which continually spurned the Love of God & His Spirit's urging for that upward look. As I read your comment here, my thoughts went to Galatians 6:17, "From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus". Though this verse doesn't directly refer to what you wrote, I see in that chapter the apostle's heart's desire for the salvation of his people: not only for God's Peace & Mercy to be upon them to come to that Truth, but that his efforts, witness & prayer were tireless, knowing that persecution would be his lot for his remaining days.

There were those who insisted on circumcision coupled with salvation to avoid certain persecution - Paul stood for Truth which is what mattered to him & he continued to proclaim 'salvation without any works'. And he did so even under great persecution. I ask, 'wouldn't it have been easier & less painful to him to present a watered-down Gospel, one where everything will work out in the end, that those who resist it will just die & no longer be remembered?' Yet, the marks of persecution were on his body; why would any man take the buffeting of men even to the point of death unless the rescue of souls from an eternity of suffering & torment was his only motivation & reason for persevering? Such concern & love is not just to get everyone into God's Kingdom, but to prevent them from entering that awful place reserved for the Devil & his angels; and the Scriptures speak volumes on this. Blessings to you.

Very beautifully written brother Chris, Thank you!

Perhaps after regeneration in Christ Jesus there will be sanctification if we are willing. Sanctification keeps our individual needs close to Jesus and as far from damnation like a gulf. Perhaps sanctification is sometimes confused with persecution? If we feel entitled to some thing and it is taken away, it might be sanctification. Maybe sanctification is Mercy multiplied?

Some evening (over here) thoughts.

Sanctification is the lifelong process of learning to be like Jesus. Little by little, lesson by lesson, our character and personality transforms. We become a people fit for heaven. We are justified (forgiven) then we are sanctified.

Good evening Shabbat Keeper. Yes a new believer is both justified and sanctified. Hebrews 10:14 . Sanctification will continually be available for our walk as Christians if we believe. As we are more and more sanctified the easier we turn from unwilling sin towards our justified state at the Cross. Life occurrences in the flesh are for all, but sanctification is reserved for the just. We must not resist sanctification, it is God's grace and mercy for His people. There are many scriptures for our sanctification on this very subject so as you said we can learn in many ways in our lives in Jesus. Regarding my earlier thought, we do not want to confuse persecution with sanctification. One is from God and one from man, only man belongs to God so we must consider our justification in all matters of life to be sure what is the perfect Will of God in our very own walk. Maybe another time I can post some of my favorite scriptures on the subject. One last thought: Sanctification means to be set apart for a sacred purpose and it also means to cleanse from all impurities. Time for the body's rest my way.

:)

Yes ! The old is a foreshadow of the new ! There have been two passovers already , Israel in the land of Egypt and the gentiles , as represented by Rahab and her household in Jericho , with the red thread ( the blood of the Passover lamb ) in their window . There will be a third passover , for us . We must have faith in God's ability to save us , wether we live or die , we are His through Christs willing sacrifice . He is our passover . We shall live with him forever in his Father's Kingdom .

the passovers were shadows of things to come. The Levitical priesthood is done, now it is the order of Melchizedek, applying "old covenant terms to a new "order" is erroneous. just saying

Hello Shabbat Keeper , it is a scary thought ,to many , to cease to exist , except when we realise that we won't know that we don't exist and that a much scarier thought , to me anyway , is to exist eternally being tortured day and night by demons ! Now that's a terrifying thought ! Which is why the Catholics preached this fable , in order to terrify people into doing what they wanted and believing what they wanted them to . God is love and there is no fear in love . He wants us with Him in love not in terror . The wages of sin is death , the cessation of life . Much love to you in Christ , our life :) .

Hi Jema, True. The unbeliever won't know. That's the mercy of God.

it always seems that people don't understand that the punishment is "eternal", the Fire of the Living God "consumes", and will be forever, just not eternal "torment"... Iv'e come to the understanding that our Father has much more "mercy" than people.

Yes ! You understand that the mercy of God extends even to atheists and idolators ! God is love .

Wages of sin are death; The body (flesh) is sinful it will die.

Now Spiritual : When The body dies.

If we reject Jesus as our savior there is no salvation. When we die in our sin and unrepentants, our soul is separated from him, and cast into Hell. This is the 2nd Death.

If we accept him , that he truly is the Son of God, he will come in to us and dwell with us by his Holy Spirit . Therefore as he died on the cross we died with him. (towards our flesh), becoming a new creation by the Holy Spirit.

Walk in the Spirit, talk in the Spirit and Pray in the Spirit.

Now with christ we have everlasting life. (Heaven)(Spiritual) To be with him for eternity in his presence.

When our sinful mortal flesh dies our soul returns to the Father to be rewarded. And you Will not be hurt of the 2nd death.

By rejecting him you have death (Death) (Hell) (Grave)

Your mortal sinful flesh dies and because you rejected him he will reject you. Therefore you will spend eternity separated from his presence and the love of God. Where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.(2nd death)

There is a mortal death and a spiritual death.

Fleshly is (mortal) We all have a human fleshly body.

Spiritually is (immortal) We all have a Soul ,Immortal.

Know this, all will face Judgment. as to weather we will be with our Lord and Savior Jesus or cast from him, we will spend eternity in one of these places.

This is in Scripture.

No one can read scriptures and continue to think that there is no Heaven and no Hell.

Then for what cause would we need salvation and from what?

Jesus said everlasting life! (Infinite) I am the way the truth and the (life)

(Death is the separation from life). Our mortal bodies will die and be separated from this mortal world and all that is in it.The 2nd death is spiritual will we live forever with Christ ? Or be (separated /death)from him . Cast into outer darkness. Hell.where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hi jesse A,

I'm reading your comment:"If we reject Jesus as our savior there is no salvation. When we die in our sin and unrepentants, our soul is separated from him, and cast into Hell. This is the 2nd Death." True! And, I would like to comment on this topic.

The second death follows the judgement scene. Jesus, the mediator, shows the resurrected unsaved dead all their life from the books of record. (Angels follow us around recording all deeds.) And, then the unrepentant sinner bows to the LORD. He never repents. Yet , he will bow to the LORD. And, then, God by the sword of his mouth ( by his words that he speaks) the wicked will die forever. Cease to exist. No eternal life of suffering.

Eternal life is the reward ONLY to us who are saved.

Why would the LORD punish for ETERNITY a sinner that lived for only 70 years? Or 20 years? That makes zero sense. Our God is one of love, logic, order, reason.

Thank you for your reply to me , it was an excellent post , however , where does it say in the Bible that my soul is immortal ? Also please note that I don't deny the existence of heaven or hell . Heaven is where God lives and hell , to me means the grave , death , non existance , not a place ruled over by demons in a torture chamber . Your post was clear and concise but it lacked scriptural foundation , it didn't convince me :) . I'm sorry . Please note , I do not deny the existence of heaven or hell .

Last Part.

Conclusion

I pray that you will read for yourself, for Hell is not An Abstract the same as the Bible which is Living the True Word of God.

As you read the theory then comes the practical and in the practical, there is two option you are either a righteous man through the repentance at the cross or You're a sinner living in your sins in this world that is passing away with its Lust.

A Tree is Tree whether it is Still standing or fallen and where it falls there it lays.

Says the Preacher who was king over Jerusalem.

Part A.

Hi

First of all I believe the Bible is the word of God, it is true it is pure and without abomination

It is written in

Proverbs 8:7

7.For my mouth shall speak truth;

And wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8.All the words of my mouth are in righteousness.

There is nothing froward or perverse in them.

Hell is a real place and not an abstract and it was never created for man but for the devil and his fallen angels.

In the book of Ezekiel chapter 32, The Lord spoke to His prophet Ezekiel and gave him word of Judgment to bring to pharaoh king of Egypt.

And from verse 2 to 18 the judgment is issued to the king and all the land of Egypt

But at the start of Chapter 32:18,

Prophets Ezekiel receives the word of the Lord where he is informed to weep for Egypt and all its people and at the same time God revels Hell to us in this verse where Egypt is to be cast down to the depth of the earth. Egypt and famous nations which are going down to the pit.

As we continue to read, we see that those Egyptian will be placed among those killed by the sword and those famous nation such Assyria is there, The Elams, The endomites Etc.all who are killed by the sword.

In Verse 23

The Lord point this for us That in Hell there is(Recesses of the Pit,)

And the meaning of recesses is this

1.The depths or innermost part of something

2. a small space created by building part of a wall further back from the rest.

All this indicating apportion or section a cage a cell in hell where this people are held.

Another thing that stands out from this verse is that Those who are in hell they caused terror in the Land of the Living, again showing they are not living but are dead.

In Verse 24 the last part we see the wording are in continue present tense indication this action is still happing. And I will quote the last the part on this Verse. Which is in

Ezekeil 32:24

yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit.

Conclusion

Eccl 12.7

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Matt 10. 28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Roman's 6. 23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is (eternal life) through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 2. 7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Corinthians 15. 51-58

54

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2nd Timothy 1. 10

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

So yes if you follow Christ and do the will of the Father we will abstain immortality.

Scripturally. (Hell)

Rev 21.8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matt 25. 46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rev 20. 10 10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20. 1414

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20. 15 15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

With much love and humility, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Thats for each person to decide what they wish to follow. I'm not the Author I'm just a messenger trying to speak the truth.

May God Bless you without measure.

May God bless you too Jesse A and thank you for your reply to me , always enjoy your posts :) .

Sorry, I should of proof read that.

So yes if you follow Christ and do the will of the Father we will (abtain) immortality.

Not (abstain) like in the previous post.

Hi Jema,

The immortal soul has been taught for well over a thousand years, I am with you in the understanding our soul is not immortal. Scripture says we do not put on immortality until we are resurrected, 1 Cor. 15:53-54.

The belief that our soul is immortal comes from ancient Greek philosophy, developed by Greek philosophers, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, it is called Platonism, attaining the highest form of knowledge, 1 Cor. 1:19-22 rebuts this. Then with Augustine, this theology and others became standard for the Church in the fourth century. The meaning of death also went from sleep in the grave to the separation of the soul from the body. This supports the teaching that when we die we go to heaven or we go to hell, and eternity is with Jesus or eternal punishment in the lake of fire (hell).

Can we find Scripture to fit this theology? Yes, but we must start with the theology or doctrine and look and find Scripture to fit the theology or doctrine. We must do the opposite, with an open mind letting the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit give us the theology and doctrine. We are the body, not the head.

God bless,

RLW

Amen and thank you Ronald . I don't want to spend all my time on here defending myself and my beliefs , I get frustrated with myself because I can't put things as clearly as you do :) . Than you again .

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