Bible Discussion Thread

Isaiah Ch 13 V 12 , who is this most precious man that God will create ? Colossians Ch 3 V 10 , who is this image of him that created him ? There are people on here that sometimes get offended by the beliefs of others . I totally understand how they feel , that's because I am deeply , genuinely offended when anyone on here types these words in this order : G_d the S_n . I literally cringe and I am genuinely offended . Why does it not matter that I am offended but it does matter when others are offended by someone else's beliefs ? Silence does not mean acquiescence . Contrary to what some believe , there are actually very many Christians who are offended by that term . They tend to stay away from sites like this , me ? Im a bit more adventurous :) . For the time being at least . If anyone can answer those two questions at the begining of my post , I would love to read their answer , as long as it's not ridiculously convoluted .

Hello Jema,

I have waited to respond to something you said in this post for this last week seeking guidance on what to ask you.

So, I will venture here to do so. Please understand, I am not attacking you here. I just want to understand your view better.

You said that you are deeply offended when people say "God the Son". I would like you to explain why it offends you so much?

Do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you worship Him as God or as a Man?

Do you worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

What do you believe about the Godhead?

I would certainly appreciate your answers to these questions and what Scriptures you use to support your views.

As, you probably know, I believe the Trinitarian doctrine is the best explanation of what the Scriptures reveal about the Godhead. But I am trying to understand why people believe otherwise and what Scriptures they use to support their beliefs.

Gigi,

About the trinity:

God gives us the perfect object lesson in marriage. A man and woman become "one". But, they remain two separate people.

But, they are united as "one" in purpose ,plan, and action. (At least , that was the plan. Some marriages fail that aspect.)

And so, Jesus is God, with his own identity separate from God the Father, separate from the Holy Spirit.

Is this what you believe too?

Hello Sabbat Keeper,

See my post to Jema.

We can talk more on this after I receive Jema's reply.

Ok Jema, I will venture to answer your two questions as simply as I can.

a. Isaiah 13:12: "I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir." As you no doubt have read through Isaiah & now here from chapter 13, Isaiah prophesies against various nations (chapters 13 to 23). Here in chapter 13, it is against Babylon, where the promise is that God will call His 'separated' ones, His 'mighty' ones to "destroy the whole land"; and this happened when the Medes/Persians overthrew Babylon in 539 BC (also in Daniel 5:30,31). This army came from a far country (over 500 miles east of Babylon). As in the destruction of Babylon, so will it be in the Day of the LORD where the intensity of the destruction is described in Revelation 6:12,13. In both scenarios, the loss of mankind will be so great, God says, "I will make man more precious than fine gold...". This verse speaks of the scarcity of men (including women), that to find even one during those days (of Babylon's destruction & the Lord's coming vengeance) would be of greater discovery & value than finding gold.

b. Colossians 3:10: "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him." I think your question is centered on the last part of this verse. The apostle had just written about 'putting off the old man with his deeds'. But having 'put it off', we must now "put on the new man". The two cannot happily co-exist - it's one or tother before God. And this activity is not a one time act - it is on-going. Here, this renewing is through knowledge (see Ephesians 4:24, where God creates this new man "in righteousness and true holiness"). As we grow in knowledge of God & His blessed Son, we become more like Him (His Image), just as ADAM was CREATED in God's Image. After the fall, that Image was severely marred. But "in Christ" & the Spirit's Work in us, that Image is being gradually restored - if we let His Work continue in us.

Thank for your reply to me Chris , I do appreciate it . Isaiah Ch 12 of course does literally speak of the end of the Babylonian empire but it's also a prophecy of the future and of the end of spiritual Babylon . The same Babylon of Revelation . Indeed its speaking of the last days , the days that we are in now . As we watch the refugee crisis unfold in the middle east we see all this in V 13-16 all this is happening now in Israel/ Gaza . This most precious man , there really isn't anyone else it can be is there ? I can just about see your point in Colossians Ch 3 V 10 , I can see why you and others might think that but to me it speaks of God's creation of us in the image of His Son . The image of him ( Christ is the image of God ,the Bible says so ) after the image of him (God ,God created Christ ) . So the first 'him' is God and the second is Christ . This is so clear and obvious to me . I can't concieve of it being anything else . And my interpretations are backed up by scripture elsewhere and to me , yours are not . I'm not trying to be argumentative , honestly I'm not , just trying to explain how things are to my mind . There's no contrivance , it just seems blatantly obvious to me that that's what those two scriptures say , that is what they say to me . If there was loads of other scriptures , clearly backing up your interpretations then I might waver in my opinion , but I just don't see that there are . I hope we can politely agree to disagree on this . I can't keep saying the same thing over and over so I don't really relish the idea of a big debate . I can respect others views and hope mine are respected also . Thanks again for your time and effort and patience .

Thank you Jema for your reply. On the Isaiah 13:12 reference, we would find no agreement at all, as the verse, when understood naturally & in context refers to the scarcity of human life during those times of the LORD's intervention & destruction. If you are finding Jesus in there (i.e. "I will MAKE A MAN more precious than fine gold"), then that would have to be a personal discovery rather than a textual truth.

And likewise with Colossians 3:10, the text doesn't allow for such an interpretation (i.e. of God creating Jesus). Paul is writing about two 'persons': the new man (i.e. the human being renewed by the Spirit), and of God (Who creates in His (God's) Image). So, it doesn't speak of Jesus, but of man who was once created in God's Image (Adam), & then after the fall, that image was marred, which necessitated a re-creation of that image in man. And to do this, man had to be changed inwardly (becoming a 'new man'), who now is being "renewed in knowledge" into the image of the One (God) Who created him (man). Yes, we do have 2 Corinthians 4:4 & Colossians 1:15 to support your use of 'image' as to Christ's 'creation', but we also have Genesis 1:27 & 1 Corinthians 11:7 to support man being made in God's Image. But to put Christ in Colossians 3:10 would violate the point of that verse which is directed to man's renewal.

Lastly, you wrote that you "don't really relish the idea of a big debate". That puzzled me since you initiated those questions for our responses. If we gave responses without 'debate/discussion', then the whole exercise would be entirely fruitless & pointless. So maybe you just wanted to share your understanding of those verses, but not willing to defend your beliefs; and these matters (of Christ's Divinity, eternal judgement, etc.) are vital to Christians & also in the preaching of the Gospel. Without these fundamentals, we have no Gospel - we have no message of liberty & hope to share with a lost world.

oops Jema, I meant to respond to your post to Ronald concerning whether we still live after our body dies.

As to your response to Chris, the Scriptures do say that Jesus was fully human, having a human body created for Him. But He differs from all other humans in that He is the divine Son of God who took onto Himself a full human nature including a body to be our perfect human representative and sacrifice for our salvation. He is God who took a human nature for us. The person of Christ is God the Son, not a human person that took on divinity, but a divine person who took on humanity.

Even the Pharisees were going to stone Him in John 10 for saying He was the Son of God. They charged that He was claiming to be God, which He was.

But I know that you do not believe this, and I understand that you do not wish to debate. I am not intending to do so.

Hello Jema,

I hope your day has gone well. It is morning here in Washington state.

When I read your post to Chris, I immediately though of Matthew 22:23 where Jesus said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

To me, Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive.

Also, refer to 1 Samuel, 2:6 in the song Hannah sang, "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up."

Notice the order, first death, then made alive. Of course this happens fully in the resurrection, but in considering what Jesus said that He who believes in me will never die. ( john 11:26)

And, one of my favorite verses: Romans 8:37-39

"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This clearly says that death cannot separate us from God.

And Jesus said to His disciples, "Behold, I AM with you always, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:20

And Paul encourages believers by reminding them that God said, "I will never leave You nor forsake you." Hebrews 13:5, Josh. 1:5

So, to me, always and never mean that we will always be alive, whether in this life now or after we die.

Therefore, I believe that when we die, our body dies, but we are still alive with God. Our bodies will be rejoined to our soul and spirit when we are resurrected and then we will be made complete (whole, perfected) for eternity.

Research soul sleep. The "living" dead are sleeping in Christ. We have an object lesson, when we go to bed at night and sleep. Suddenly, it's morning.

Our dead relatives have no idea what's going on. They are not watching over us. They are asleep!

Thinking otherwise leads to spiritism which God forbids.

Dear Shabbat Keeper,

Again, I do not think that believing that a person lives on without a body after death necessarily leads to spiritism. That is an

erroneous assumption.

I do not think, though, that our dead loved ones in Christ are watching over us and involved in our life here. I believe that they

are with the Lord and that involves not knowing what is happening here on earth. That is what the Scripture is talking about

when it says that the dead know nothing-that is, nothing of the goings on of this world and life.

Eternal life is received when we believe and when we die, only our body dies. But eternal life is a completely different kind of life

that earthly life. it is a completely different realm of existence, of which we cannot pierce the veil in this life, nor can those

believers who have passed from death into life pierce the veil between eternal life and earthly life.

I guess we will just have to accept that we differ in our views on this and we will find out when we die what is true.

Dear Shabbat Keeper,

I have never advocated communicating with the dead. But I do believe that the Bible teaches what Jesus said that those who believe in Him, though one dies, will live forever.

Adam and Eve were the only two created in God's image after that man became a mom and dad creation as we have the power to create, to know good and evil, etc.

Isaiah 41:22] Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.

[23] Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

After the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we are to be the image of the Son of God for us to be in God's image once again.

Romans 8:29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If I am conformed to the image of the Son of God I sure am not going to be conformed to the image of sin to the image of the devil as all sin is of the devil period 1st John 3:8. No such verse as we sin because we are of God or Jesus. Mankind thinks we are all made in God's image. False!!! Only those who come to his Son Jesus Christ and his words of spirit and life in John 6:63 can mankind be conformed to the image of God. 100% conditional love all the way. A free gift, with conditions. We have to walk in the spirit of the words and not in the spirit of the world. The things which are seen are only temporal, however, the things not seen are eternal. The rich man in hell didn't see that coming in Luke 16. A rich and powerful person in his day and he could not spend a dime of it in hell.