Bible Discussion Thread

Ah! The perpetual discussion on eternal security. Almost as exciting as discussing who the Sons of God were in Gen. 6:2, but I'll save that one for another time. Unfortunately, we live in a time when 'rightly' dividing the Word has become somehow more complicated. I believe the Bible has every answer to all the questions we need to have answered in order to walk circumspectly with the Lord. I'll make it brief, then, that the ability to lose one's salvation rests completely with that individual. God made the way, Christ made the sacrifice and the Holy Spirit provides the ability or power for us to follow Christ daily, unless we choose otherwise. Salvation from God does not negate one's ability to choose between God or something less. The Bible contains those who started well and finished poorly. So poorly they ended up in Hades. Saul, Israel's first king, was one whom God withdrew His spirit from ( 1 Sam. 16:14), Judas Iscariot whom Christ called to follow Him, willingly rejected and betrayed Christ after he witnessed and performed miracles/wonders in His name when sent out by Jesus in pairs ( Mark 6:7-13) and then, Demas, who forsook Paul for the love of the world ( 2 Tim. 4:10). But, finally, God has a word that many overlook in the Bible. It's a short 4-letter word called "blot". It's used in Exodus 32:32-33 where God tells Moses He will blot out the names of those who reject Him from His book and then in Revelation 3:5, Jesus himself declares that He will not blot out the names of those who overcome the trials and sufferings that believers face, but warns those who are not watching and keeping His commands. I know that my flesh nature would love the idea that once I get saved, I have no more worries about anything. Lack of rewards in Heaven will be no big deal because we won't feel shame or regret. You better read Luke 14:27 and Matt. 10:38, no one will wear Heaven's crown until they carry their earthly cross in His service. Thanks for your time.

Hi VALMAR: I know that what you are teaching is 100% correct. The pat answer for those who believe in eternal security is that no one really goes back to sin, they were just never born again in the first place. That their profession of salvation was phony. However, I know this is false because of the scriptures, of course, but also from personal experience. My husband and I were living sinful lives with no regard for God (I was raised a Catholic so I had no idea what a personal relationship with Jesus was.) Tim knew but was not interested and we seemed very happy. Finally, through the witness of a fellow employee, Tim started feeling his need for Jesus in his heart and the employee's wife started witnessing to me and Tim and I got truly saved, on the same day, several weeks later. Our whole lives changed drastically. We loved Jesus and through His grace and power we left our sins, we started attending church with our friends that witnessed to us, we bought bibles and loved reading and studying them, we loved everything Godly in our lives. We had such joy in our hearts. What, other then true salvation, could have made us suddenly make these wonderful changes in our lives, if not for true salvation. But after several years we let the cares of the world that came upon us cause us to became discouraged and weary to the point of drifting further and further away from God and eventually we backslide and stop loving and serving Him, then Tim divorced me . I was so devasted. I knew my only answer to be able to go on (I had 3 small children) was to surrender to Jesus and I did. I have been living for Him ever since. I never remarried. Tim continued in sin until, on his deathbed, through the witnessing of his sons and daughter, he accepted Christ and less then a day later he died. I suppose some may find holes in this written testimony but I lived it and I know, and anyone else who truly rightly divides the scriptures will know also. God Bless You

Thanks for your response to my post, Momsage. I was sorry to hear that your marriage ended in divorce. Living for the Lord is a daily challenge and I know the pitfalls of becoming like the prodigal son and wanting to get away and have 'fun' that this world can offer. Or I have also felt the need to start becoming slack in my service to Him. That tends to only snowball into a routine of not studying His Word or praying or assembling together with other believers. It sounds like the Spirit has gotten you back on track, so keep reading, praying and going even if you think it's no use or just the same ole same ole stuff. Remember you have to bring your body and mind into subjection to His service and not your whims. Again, thanks and have a good Thanksgiving with your family. Thanks for your time...

This is an amazing testimony. Thank you for sharing.

Thanks for your comment to post. Unfortunately, in my response to Chris's post, I forgot to mention the fact that I can also know why God gave us/me His Spirit when I came to Him as a repentant sinner. Because the Spirit is within me to do God the Father's will. The Spirit directs my path, convicts my conscience, and reassures me that when I sin and confess, God forgives and we continue on. He corrects me, humbles me before I get in trouble and is my everyday companion, though sometimes I may not act like He's around. He points me to Jesus always, and Jesus points me to His Father and tells me to keep going and not quit.

One of my many favorite stories in the Word is where Paul is in Athens at Mar's Hill and preaches to them the fact that God is not far from any of us ( Acts 17:27), He's only a prayer away from the vilest sinner and that was me at one time. Thank you, Shabbat Keeper, for allowing me to correct myself, and blessings to you.

Valmar, Thank you! Yes and I agree! Such smart words! My heart is uplifted.

Hello Valmar. Rather than respond with several pages, I would ask this one thing: what was the purpose of God to send His Spirit to indwell those who truly repented & sought to follow Him & His Son Jesus? I note that you stated, "God made the way, Christ made the sacrifice and the Holy Spirit provides the ability or power for us to follow Christ daily, unless we choose otherwise." Do you then understand anything more of the Work of the Holy Spirit other than His enabling & power to follow Christ daily?

I sense that much of your comment centers around this understanding of the Spirit's Coming & Work, as it bears upon how a life is lived for Christ, the consequences of falling short, of retrieval/renewal, of learning through His Ministry, and of course in the view of the Old Testament, how the Spirit worked in those prior to Jesus' Sacrifice under the Mosaic Covenant. Blessings.

Hello, Chris. Thanks for your inquiry concerning the Holy Spirit and His unique work within the Trinity. I can only know about the Holy Spirit (Spirit) from what the Word tells me, including Jesus Himself. You asked about God's purpose in sending His Spirit to indwell within us. From scripture, especially in the New Testament, it's apparent that He (Spirit) provides spiritual power to heal, rebuke, exhort, encourage, correct, discern, comfort and I'm sure some others. However, even in the Old Testament, prior to the advent of Christ and the Day of Pentecost when the disciples and others were baptized with cloven tongues of fire, we read where David slayed Goliath, Noah built an Ark, Samson slew 1,000 men with an animals jawbone, Daniel faced the lion's den and his 3 confidants a fiery furnace. Let's not forget Abraham and Moses either. I believe the same Spirit was within them also. God won't ask anyone to do anything for Him without giving them the wherewithal to accomplish it. That's where the Spirit comes in and, if we allow Him, can do mighty things for the Kingdom of God. The only requirement is we submit ourselves totally to His purpose... every day. Thanks for your time...

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Hi Valmar. Thanks for addressing my question & I do agree with you on the incomprehensible Work of the Spirit in giving healing, exhortation, etc. What I was looking for pertains to your subject, viz. a believer's eternal security. And also to a comment you made, "the ability to lose one's salvation rests completely with that individual".

The way I understand the Scriptures, is that if we have the ability, or power, to lose/relinquish our salvation, then it presents questions not only to the Spirit's Work in saving a lost soul, but also the power we have to over-ride what the Spirit has done in our lives. Clearly, you believe that a saved sinner can either choose to depart Christ or to remain faithful to Him. My question then is: is it in the new spiritual make-up of the one now found 'in Christ' to ever desire to leave the One Who has delivered Him from so great a penalty & given him a new life with peace, joy & hope? Here, I'm not referring to a saved soul who through negligence or appeal of the flesh or Satan, strays & toys with the world. I'm confident if that soul is saved, then the Spirit will not let him go; and Momsage shared an apt testimony of this very work of God in her & her husband.

So to my question, I believe the more relevant Work of the Holy Spirit in one's life is that: He Convicts man of his sin ( John 16:8-11); He Regenerates, or gives re-birth to the penitent sinner ( John 3:3-7, Titus 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:17, 1 John 2:29); He Indwells ( 1 Corinthians 6:19, Romans 5:5, John 14:16); He Baptizes ( 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:5); and He Seals ( 2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). I'm sure you're conversant with these Scriptures, showing that salvation & securing is all of God, without any contribution from man. To Page 2.

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Can man (the believer who is truly saved, having experienced all of the above), then undo what God has done, drawing himself away into perdition through an unholy desire, & without the immediate intervention of the Spirit within him who has loved Him, sealed him & secured him into the family of God? I know some do believe that we can of our own volition do such a thing & they've even given proof, but the Word clearly shows us that God makes no mistakes, yet we do err when we fail to understand that we simply cannot judge another's salvation or how the Spirit is at work in that wayward one's life to draw him back.

We can never correctly discern a person's salvation before God - we must accept & love all who claim faith in Christ alone, building them up in the faith, & watching out for signs of weakness or departure, but salvation is only of the Lord & He knows His sheep & by their name - not one of his own can stray away for very long. But can even that one sheep decide that he no longer wishes to be under the watchful Eye & Care of the Shepherd or to live amongst that special flock? I believe that God's indwelling & continual ministry of His Spirit in his children will keep them true to Him, even under the greatest pressure, testing or persecution. But "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" ( Romans 8:8), should affirm our hearts & keep us confident that not one of His Own shall be lost or even have any desire to depart into the world & sin.

Good evening, Chris. I find it fascinating that people have such a difficult time with thinking their salvation may not be secure. Answer me this, does God change? Does Jesus change? Does the Holy Spirit change? The answer to all those is no, of course not. Then why would God 'change' His requirements for a relationship with Him? He wouldn't. What is the main difference between the Old and New Testaments? The advent of Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for all mankind, including those who lived prior to His earthly life starting in Bethlehem. While believers in the OT went to Paradise, as opposed to Heaven, they were still God's children and were in Paradise until Christ's crucifixion and resurrection set them free (so to speak) to go to Heaven. All that to say this, do you recall anyone speaking of eternal security for the likes of Abraham, Noah, Moses, Rahab, Seth or David? No, you haven't because it didn't exist even though when they died and went to Paradise, they could never lose their relationship with God and be booted over the chasm to Hades.

So, why all of a sudden with Christ's birth, death, and resurrection, do we suddenly decide that God has provided eternal security for us? If according to Psalms 55:19, 102:27, Daniel 7:14, Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 1:12, 13:8, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not change, then let's quit convincing ourselves they do. Have a good Thanksgiving and thanks for your time...

PS OT saints got in the book of Life the 'old-fashioned' way, trust and obedience. It works every time. Amen.

About being sealed, the Bible clearly warns throughout, to take heed lest ye fall, to guard against back sliding, and in Ezekiel talks about a righteous man,turning from righteousness, will die in his unrighteousness. In Revelation, to the seven churches, warnings of falling away, and to turn back. Also, in several books, the admonition to "return to me and I will return to you." And, we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

This is serious stuff. We can lose our salvation. Once saved always saved is a lie to lull people asleep.

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Thank you Valmar. To respond & also I'm in agreement with you, No, the Triune God never changes - as well as His requirement of faith to please Him & be acceptable to Him. The OT folk were accepted by God because of their faith in Him for Who He was (as revealed to them) & they were confident that He would fulfill all that He had promised to them. Those who died in their sins were the disobedient & faithless & could never please Him & suffered under His Hand. So, the essential requirement was Faith & when the Law & Commandments came to them, they were to obey fully in their strength, looking unto their Maker only.

So, what changed with the coming of Jesus Christ? Faith was still the requirement ( Hebrews 11:6), but it was no longer a human faith, based on human works, to be acceptable to God. The OT faithful (looking forward) would have their sins paid for at Calvary, just as those who would believe from Israel & Gentiles post-Calvary. But now, we don't receive a set of rules to follow to please God - we don't muster up (our) faith to be acceptable - and we contribute nothing in works (sacrifices, feasts, sabbaths, washings, etc.) towards our salvation.

For this reason, I sought your thoughts on the work of the Holy Spirit, He Who was sent by Jesus ( John 15:26; John 16:7; Galatians 4:6), a Spirit that the OT faithful never received for the renewing & enlivening of their hearts - only at Pentecost such a mighty Work of God took place. God indeed has not changed, but the Cross has changed how man stands before God. To Page 2.

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Prior to the Cross, man stood on HIS faith & acceptable works - after the Cross, man stands without any of that - only on the Work of the Holy Spirit, regenerating the old sinful heart and giving Faith (by God's Grace) to believe ( Ephesians 2:8); the Spirit's permanent indwelling bringing continual spiritual renewal; the Spirit's baptizing into Christ's Body (adoption), and the Spirit's Seal of ownership & security. If a repenting sinner has experienced such a Work of the Spirit in his heart & life, he can have full confidence that the Spirit will always guide, keep, warn, & discipline if necessary, so that God's child would never be lost into the world - indeed would never ever desire the world & its enticements. If this Work of the Spirit of God were not ALL of God's Work alone to secure a sinner, then the Work of the Cross has failed, & we may just as well go back to following a set of rules with sacrifices (works), hoping for a good outcome.

We can be confident that if God has done this wonderful Work of Salvation in a person's life, then that Work is permanent & will never fail. If we believe that a 'believer' can one day spurn God's Love & turn his back on Him forever, then the Bible assures us that that work was not of God, but of man - for God, by His Word & Work of His Spirit can never fail. This is the God I have fully placed my trust in - if He was any less that what He has declared in the Bible & revealed personally in my life, then I will admit that I am on very shaky ground. Blessings.

Mankind's free will does not go away once he is saved. It will be with him until death, so mankind ALWAYS has the freedom to choose to live for God or not. You say people who sin after getting saved, never really got saved. Please read my testimony.

My husband and I were living sinful lives with no regard for God and we were very happy. Then, through the witness of a fellow employee, Tim started feeling his need for Jesus in his heart and the employee's wife started witnessing to me and Tim and I got saved, on the same day, several weeks later. Our whole lives changed drastically. We loved Jesus and through His grace and power we left our sins, we started attending church with our friends that witnessed to us, we bought bibles and loved reading and studying them, we had such wonderful times of prayer, we loved everything Godly in our lives and got rid of everything sinful. We had such joy in our hearts. What, other then true salvation, could have made us suddenly make these wonderful changes in our lives. There was no reason. But after several years we let the cares of the world, that came upon us, cause us to became discouraged and weary to the point of drifting further and further away from prayer, bible study, all the things of God that had kept us on the straight and narrow path. Eventually we stop living for Him and went back into worse sin then before, then Tim divorced me. I was so devasted. I knew my only answer to be able to go on (I had 3 small children) was to surrender to Jesus and forsake the life of sin I was living and ask for forgiveness and accept Him back into my heart. I have been living for Him ever since. I never remarried nor had any further relationships. Tim continued in sin until, on his deathbed, through the witnessing of his sons and daughter, he accepted Christ again and less then a day later he died. This was in 1982. I love Jesus so dearly and I am diligent in living for Him. I don't plan on every leaving my Savior again. God Bless :)

Yes, Momsage, man will always have free will & be able to make choices in life (a gift granted by God). What I've tried to show from my comment you referred to, is that when God by His Spirit is indwelling & controlling His child, the child, though having free will & maybe somewhat self-willed, will always be under the Spirit's watchful Ministry - and this can include correction, warning, discipline, even death (so that the "spirit may be saved": 1 Corinthians 5:5).

From what the Word tells me about the Work of the Spirit, is that a truly saved person, though subject to correction will be kept by HIS Power & not ours: 1 Peter 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy HATH begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, TO an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth NOT away, RESERVED in heaven for you, Who are KEPT by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." All of God's Work & according to His Promise; or else, we can be popping in & out of salvation (re-birth) at will, making mockery of God's faultless & unfailing work.

Thank you for the testimony of you & your husband's 'salvation', your departure from the Lord & subsequent joyful return. I think many of us can testify similarly of such an experience - but in each case, we have to rely on God's Work & Word & the knowledge that "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, The Lord KNOWETH them that are his. And, Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" ( 2 Timothy 2:19). I believe that those whom the Lord seals (& He alone knows them by name), can never be un-sealed. As in your case, or even with me, having at one stage left the Lord & enjoyed the world's offerings, & then returned, it is the Lord's application of His Work in our lives - and this Work usually testifies well through personal testimony. Blessings.

Sorry I think I may have hit the amen choice by mistake, I meant to do it for Valmar because his comment would have been the same as mine. I do have a question, however, you said something in your comment that, I admit, confused me. At the end you admitted that you yourself had left the Lord but then returned, Praise the Lord for that, but isn't that backsliding or if, though you were living in sin, you had died in that state you would have gone to be with Jesus anyway and your name still would have been in the Lamb's Book of Life because it was sealed unto salvation or no matter how long you were in sin until you returned, God would not have allowed you to die, or you weren't saved in the first place, but no, you said you returned, or I totally misunderstood what you said which is possible. Please don't think I am being facetious, I would not do that, these are legitimate questions to your comment. God Bless :)

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Sorry for the confusion Momsage; we can be a little limited in adequately expressing our thoughts via the written page. My premise is based on the fact (& this is scriptural as I gave earlier), that God makes no mistakes, those He secures & seals giving re-birth, is a work that cannot be undone, either by God or man. If this belief is faulty, maybe discussion can be had on this aspect. And this would be important, for I find that much of what we believe is based on either a true or false foundation, & this base determines the belief we hold (i.e. what we build on that foundation).

So if this (securing/sealing) is true, then when God saves a soul from the penalty of sin, He alone knows the genuineness of that repentance, whether in time that person falters in sin & recovers, even stepping away for a season, or even how faithful he will be even to the point of persecution & death. No other person on Earth, except possibly the 'saved' person him/herself, would have any degree of assurance of what has taken place in his/her life. Then for those of us who believe in the eternal security of the believer, we base our belief on the Word of God & the Work of God in salvation of each soul, that none will ever be lost. If we can be lost after truly being saved by God's Spirit, then God's Work is faulty & man by his own Will can be the decider of when he chooses to be saved. But if God alone saves, then that soul will remain saved even though, as mentioned, he may be rocked about with sin in the interim.

Now in my case, as you asked about, when I mentioned that "I had left the Lord", I meant that I left the Christian upbringing given me, I left the Word of God implanted in me, & I left any desires I might have had towards spiritual things. It wasn't a spur-of-the-moment thing; Satan had groomed me to reject all I had known before & to attend to the appeals of the flesh & from my peers. To Page 2.

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I won't give details of that here, but the turning away was gradual & what God had first meant to me had gone completely. Did I not have any conviction by the Spirit of sin & estrangement from God? I knew what I was doing, but No, I felt nothing of the Spirit's Work. What was I at that time? Was I ever saved & temporarily fallen away? Or maybe, I was never saved, just giving a Christian persona to family & others? I couldn't tell for sure at that time - but I could say now, that God knew exactly what my state was. My own belief, was that I was never saved (unlike in your testimony, where I understand that you both believed that you were in a saved state then falling into continual sin). Why I believe that I wasn't saved, was simply because I had no sense of guilt, of consequences of sin, etc. which only the Spirit of God can give to God's child. Even with the prayers of my father & the Church, I continued in a sinful lifestyle, till the time that God would step in, bringing in deep conviction & the certainty of Hell. And in God's mysterious Ways, it initially took an unsaved bisexual 'friend' whom God used to trigger my mind & spirit to my own sin & wickedness (he certainly wasn't a Christian - just a trigger). And btw, I have always been a heterosexual, only that acquaintance of mine 'leaned' the other way.

I believe that if I died in that state of sin, I would be lost in Hell. "But God, Who is rich in Mercy" ( Ephesians 2:4-6), at the right time, brought me to my senses, & the wretchedness of my sins came before me. I could do nothing else but weep hard & long for my sins - and instantly knowing & experiencing His glorious Salvation only through His Son, with great release & joy. You shared that you have never turned away from the Lord since re-birth & you never will. I too, by the Spirit's enabling have stayed true to Him, even having been tested in the face of the enemies of the Cross while in ministry (I won't go into that here). To Page 3.

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So, I'm well aware of the cost of so great Salvation & also the cost of living the life that is hidden in Christ. The Holy Spirit within does do great & mighty things in the one in Christ, & we have barely experienced what He can do when one comes face-to-face with Satan's cohorts.

Some could say that I had just back-slid, but my own sense was that I was never saved, but simply had the marks of a Christian. Until I knew the depth of sin, my sin, I was just playing with God, not unlike those who believe in a watered-down Gospel (i.e. Christ has saved me forever, so I can sin giving little regard to it). I realize that those who don't believe in the eternal security of the believer, believe that we who do believe in it, no longer pay attention to sin but that untrue, because nowhere in the Word do I find that a true child of God can ever resort to a life of sin & still believe he is saved - that's deception. The Spirit of God simply won't permit such a thing happening because He has taken up residence within & our lives "are hid with Christ in God". I simply can't make mockery of God's great salvation. And for your own testimony, only you can discern that the love you once had for the Lord (before you turned back to Him) was a life governed by His Spirit or devoid of Him. No one else can judge that. For me though, there has to be a point of a deep conviction of our sinful state, acknowledgement of it, & a turning to the Savior for salvation. When that happens & the Holy Spirit is given, we are the Lord's right into eternity ( Romans 8:9). Blessings to you too, & if you have further enquiries on what I've shared or on why the foundations of our belief are so important, I would welcome them.

That was a great read Brother Chris!

I believe there's a lack of study in the work of the Holyspirit.

Thanks for sharing!

God bless

I believe you've hit the 'nail on the head' brother S. Spencer. If more Fellowships gave much more teaching space to the Work of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life, we would learn to be much more sensitive to Him, watching for and responding to His leading, and of course, weighing every act or thought under His all-penetrating Light of Truth & Grace.

Sometimes we can be over-sensitive to our every action, as I feel I tend to, but even in this, we can trust the Spirit of God to direct us & comfort us in every step we take. If we truly looked only to Him for everything we need for life & godliness, we would spend less time debating on matters about the currency of the given written Law or even the believer's imperative to struggle in maintaining holiness & salvation only given at the end. Even in these matters, the Holy Spirit in us will take care of it, only if we allow Him, listening earnestly to Him. He never fails - we often do, thereby missing out on God's very best for us. Blessings.

My dear brother in Christ Jesus,

Chris, although this was not written to me, I just want to say thank you for everything you've just shared. I wish it were even more than three pages. So powerful, and so true!

We are being kept by the power of God. I firmly believe that if He wasn't the one keeping us in His grip, we would have no hope!

God bless!!!

Thank you brother Jesse. We are indeed kept by the Power of God, & nothing, but nothing, can snatch us out of His Hands. Some believe that God does keep but we also have the power to undo what God has done. But I ask, 'would a blood-bought, forgiven sinner, one gloriously redeemed from the clutches of the enemy, ever want to resort to the world's carnal offerings, however attractive they may be'? And with the Spirit within to continually minister ever so graciously yet firmly - not keeping to certain hours of the day to attend to our needs, but constantly, waking or sleeping?

Sometimes, I sense that believers/Fellowships don't spend much time at all on what the Holy Spirit actually does in a believer's life - that it truly is a whole new life now lived by His Power & not ours - that we are not only "not our own", but we won't want to belong to anyone else. When I read some testimonies on here, that a brother or sister has lost all taste for this world & even the thought of sinning against a loving heavenly Father becomes abhorent, I am joyful that that dear one has indeed been mightily touched & 'gripped' (as you rightly stated), taking comfort in the securing, keeping Power of God. Every blessing to you dear Jesse.

Happy pre-Thanksgiving, Chris. Thanks for your response. First, if the Word declares that we should work out our faith with fear and trembling (Philip. 2:12-13), that we should not grieve the Holy Spirit who seals us unto the day of redemption and, finally, Jesus told the parables of the talents and the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 reflecting what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. Same master, same bridegroom for all the servants or virgins (in other words, no unbelievers). If eternal security is valid, then why would Paul under Spirit prompting say we have to work out our salvation? It should be a given, no work, no fear, no trembling. Right? Should read then, "Enjoy your salvation with confidence and presumption.". You're right in saying God has done it all in making a way for us to get back into relationship with Him thru His Son, Jesus. God has dealt to every man a measure of faith ( Rom. 12:3), so when you say HIS faith, I think you mean his/man's misplaced faith in himself or something other than God. Again, I stand by what the Word declares, that without faith it is impossible to please God or to do His will.

Paul states it best in 1 Cor. 9:27, when he chooses to keep his body under subjection, lest that by any means, after he has preached to others, he should become a castaway. How's that? A castaway? No way that could happen...I mean no way. He must have not been listening close enough to what the Spirit was really wanting him to say or write.

If, after all this, you and others (some very prominent in today's Christianity) choose to believe this erroneous teaching, then continue on my friend and we'll let bygones be bygones. Thanks for your time...Mark

And wishes to you too Mark & your family at this time of Thanksgiving. You've shared a few Scriptures, which I will address.

Philippians 2:12,13. The apostle was concerned for the Church's behavior: vv 2-4 (disagreements, unloving, discord, striving & not esteeming). And of course, he gives the supreme example of the Mind of Christ in his Coming in the form of a Servant. So Paul goes on to write (v12), 'therefore as you have obeyed me in the past, not just when I'm around but now when I'm not with you, work out (put into practise/into operation) what your salvation has brought you, and do so in trembling & fear (in all diligence & seriousness)': my paraphrasing. "work out your own salvation" is the big question here. If it were to 'find your own way to God', or 'now that you are saved, make all effort to remain saved', then I don't believe that was Paul's teaching. As one Bible teacher often preached, "you have been given the gift of Salvation, now work it out in your life", i.e. 'be constantly in step with the Spirit, being humble before God, scrutinizing your life, keeping short accounts with Him; you can't add anymore to your salvation, or else it's no more of Grace but of works, so be diligent to not be slack but mindful of God's great Grace & your position in Christ'.

"His Faith". I did mean, God's Faith given to man to believe & to be exercised with. Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 12:3, are good examples - the Gift of God given to us is 'Grace AND Faith', for man's faith is incapable of apprehending the fullness of Christ's Sacrifice at the Cross for him & being exercised to please God.

1 Corinthians 9:27. A 'castaway' what Paul was referring to, was that he would be disqualified from this high calling if he was hypocritical by preaching salvation through Jesus & the power of that Risen Life, & yet be undisciplined in dealing with the appeals of his flesh. In this case, he would have failed - and maybe removed from ministry, even from earthly life itself. GBU

I think we can agree to disagree about what castaway may mean, sort of like the preacher I heard explain the branches in John 15 as being works and not the believers themselves. That's how you get around the branches being burned in the fire that don't produce fruit. Again, I think it's sad that there are those who will hold to this 'doctrine' until their last breath. If I saw any inferral to it in the OT, then I might reconsider and if Jesus didn't tell those believers in the church at Sardis that, if they didn't change their ways, they risked having their names blotted out of the Book of Life. I suppose you and others surmise Christ was speaking metaphorically or something. Again, your choice. I'm just simple enough to take Him at His word and that's it. No figuring, no Greek word origin, no hemming and hawing, just take it for what it says. In the end, the eternal security issue is one that can tend to produce lame duck, no, luke warm Christians, who like the Pharisees and Saducees in Jesus' day, thought themselves impervious to correction, even by the Son of God Himself. Stay in the Word, my friend and we'll converse again down the road sometime. Thanks for your time...

Hey Chris, that term castaway is the same word translated "reprobate" in other passages. Much worse than being removed from ministry or end of physical life. Why it was translated castaway, who knows.. either way, it is an "unsaved" position.

Thank you Rainwalker. You are correct, that the same word, 'adokimos' is used in relation to 'reprobate or castaway'. And this word gives the definitions as 'failing to pass the test, unapproved, counterfeit'. So we see a number of meanings that can be given, whether a test is given & one fails it, or to the other, of one being a counterfeit.

Thus if one feels that 1 Corinthians 9:27 might be Paul indicating that if he fails to keep his body (his flesh) under subjection, that when he preaches to others, then God would cast him away; could he then just be a failure, or incur God's disapproval, or even actually be a counterfeit Christian to be relegated to a destiny with other unbelievers?

Then do verses such as Romans 1:28, 2 Timothy 3:8, or Titus 1:16 apply also to Paul if he neglected to keep his body under subjection? And if Paul is deemed to be a castaway (i.e. having lost his salvation), does this then open the door to the Lord's failure to call & appoint His primary apostle to the Gentiles? But as we know, Paul didn't let the flesh or the Devil overcome him - he remained clear in conscience & faithful to his Lord; and this power, could it have come from within, i.e. the Holy Spirit in him, Who helps those endued with the Spirit, to not only do as Paul did, but also to be confident that He will indeed keep them from falling & be presented faultless before the Throne?

It's for such questions & verses in the NT, that confirm to my heart that God makes no mistakes in calling, redeeming, justifying & sealing His children. Readers of those passages will have to satisfy their own hearts & minds as to how to understand the different word usages for 'castaway or reprobate'.

Hello Valmar,

I appreciate what you have said here.

I also believe that the Word teaches that the Holy Spirit is the one who regenerates us through the washing of the word.

( Titus 3:5)

He sanctifies us ( John 17:5) ( Romans 15:16) He gives us life (6:63)

The Spirit puts to death the works of sin in us ( Romans 8:13)

He baptizes us into Christ ( 1 Cor. 12:13)

The Spirit gives us access to the Father ( Eph. 2:18)

He teaches us. ( John 14:26)

There are many more things that Scriptures say about what the Spirit does in and for us.

Hello, GiGi and thanks for your post. Yes, those are the 'others' I was referring to and there are probably even more. But thanks again and have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Thanks for your time...

Valmar, U hope your

Thanksgiving is very happy, meaningful, and full of love.

Amen Gigi!

There's one other thing the Holyspirit does that is very much in context with this post is he "Holyspirit" seals us.

Ephesians 4:30.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, WHEREBY YE ARE SEALED (UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION).

Yes, Steven Spencer, He does seal us. I knew some would come up with other works of the Holy Spirit. I did not want to "hog" all of it, but wanted to leave room for others to respond. He convicts the world of sin, said Jesus in the Last Supper discourse.

he comforts us, as Jesus called Him the Comforter. He advocates for us as a lawyer before a judge and Jesus called Him "Advocate".

Amen Gigi.

I wasn't saying you missed anything,

I was just staying away from what might end up in a back and forward debate, so I was just easing in below the clouds to insert a relevant attribute of the Holyspirit that would go along with the theme that was presented by the poster.

"The perpetual discussion on eternal security"

(We are sealed unto the day of redemption.)

God bless

S. Spencer,

I do not think you were implying I missed anything. I purposely left things out for others to add to a worthy discussion of the workings of the Holy Spirit in a believer.

I can understand how you do not want to get into a back and forth discussion about eternal security. This topic has been discussed at length in recent months. So we can let others chime in on that discussion topic.

Amen Gigi.

Don't get me wrong, It's a lot to be learned from this topic.

#1 "What is Eternal Salvation?"

#2 When does ETERNAL Salvation start? And I re-emphasize Eternal.

As you know I try to address any Salvation topic.

I don't like entering any debate when the first time Postee introduce himself with that debate.

God bless.

A wise approach Steven.

Proverbs 20:3

"It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling."

Chris,

You step beyond pleasant discussion into disputatious contention.

It is not helpful to those seeking to engage.

I say this in love. Please consider.

Shabbat Keeper,

I think that Chris was giving an honest presentation of his view about this topic. I know him to always be gracious in his posts.