Good evening, guess some of the seals are on the mind this evening.
In Zechariah 3:1-4 Joshua was with an angel of the LORD and Satan was there to resist him. Though Jerusalem was precious in the Lord's eye, Satan looked down on Israel not able to keep the Commandments of God and thus remaining in filthy garments, yet, God rebukes Satan and changes Joshua's raiment by taking away his iniquity.
The white robes of the fifth seal were also a change of raiment for the souls that were slain for the word of God and were given rest under the alter until their fellow servants and their brethren lives were also taken.
What these Saints had battled was Satan and his angels standing up against them as they washed their filthy garments in the blood of the Lamb at Calvary. These Saints are asking how long will the Lord wait to avenge their blood on the earth. It would be likely the vengeance they are asking for is against evil spirits standing against man's salvation.
Good morning Bennymkje, Thank you for what hou have stated. Finally my thoughts on the 5th seal are referring to many who went first in believing in the Life giving Blood of Jesus Christ into Heaven. These Saints though many of them were cruelly persecuted unto death persevered without vengeance to man as they knew they were unworthy for this cause.The slain are looking for the time while under the altar of rest now in white robes, citizens of the new and better kingdom, are wondering when the Lord's vengeance of this Evil in earth will be finished. They know how Satan stood against them in latter times just as Satan stood against God's people that looked past their condition in weakness as seen in Zechariah towards Jesus. This battle is only won in the flesh of the Jesus as only He was able to stand up against Satan and his angels. The view of the 5th seal looks to be a heavenly view as time is coming to a close like the end of a day.
we are looking at a vision in Re.4 There we have the command,' Come up hither,' (4:1) We have the heaven the highest heaven and the sea of glass and altar of souls on which the throne is set. The same sea of glass we seen from the POV of Ezekiel who was among the exiles. Now St John is at the eye of level of throne in heaven.
Ezekiel from below sees the same sea of glass, "And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above."(Ez.1:22)
The souls slain for the martyrs are on the earth. They are not ressurected yet. As prayers of saints from the earth reach so the cries of the dead from lower parts reach heaven. Resurrection of the dead are in their order and it is not as you seem to imply.
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
The Lamb who prevailed upon to open the seals is St John's vision which we have in the Book of Daniel through the eye of OT saints. These are one and the same. Horsemen are color-coded to indicate the judgment so death on a pale horse shall be judged in due time. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."(1 Co.15:26)
Inaugural vision where St John sees the risen Christ and the Ancient of Days as one. They are in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks. This is a signal of the last Act in the Salvation 'Drama' where wars (sword),pestilence and plague shall be removed. "and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."(Re.21:4) The Book 'written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals." is both blessings and judgment.
Hello Bennymkje, Again, Thank you. I think in reading Revelation there are things that are before the vision is completed and sometimes after the vision is completed. As described by "hereafter" and "shortly will come to pass" or "be done". The 24 elders may be representative of both the Old Testament saints (12) and the New Testament saints (12), thus the sea of glass before the Throne is clear, unhindered, eternal. Crossing the valley soon to a meal provided. Another good hour in Peace.
These 24 elders are memorial unto God and they are witnesses to the body that has been prepared for the Son. By the same token the four beasts are memorial to God who appointed the Man as His steward over all creation. The beast with the face of man is the last Adam. " and the third beast had a face as a man"(Re.4:7) Each animal that represents His glory has specific characteristics associated with his Son. His faith as a lion, humility as calf, and eagle about to fly, is his prayer life. The third beast is that of a lamb since in Re.22:1 we are shown the composite throne of God and of the Lamb, signifying New Jerusalem and Zion.
"And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."(Re.4:4) Reuben cannot be among the eternal memorial wearing gold of an overcome. Neither Judas Iscariot for his betrayal. "Lo I overcame the world" Jesus testified. God rested from his labors knowing the 24 elders testified his faith. Fulness of the Son fills heaven earth and the lower parts. He went in Spirit and preached to souls in prison. So the Spirit sets them 8x3 =24. Three is the command number for the Son, He represents Trinity by the number; 4 for the Word become flesh. and he visited souls in prison and preached and it to which 'Cast thy bread upon waters' indicates "Give a portion to seven, and also to eight;"(Ec.11:1-2). Compare with Isaiah 55:11
These 24 elders praise God continually because faith of God rested having framed the worlds by faith.(He.11:3)
Good morning Bennymkje, I think you and most here, understand that my view of the Kingdom and Church is a present view. So when I read the scriptures regarding faith they can only apply today as tomorrow may be too late. I like your thoughts on the memorial with the elders as unto Christ. He is the Lord. Prophecy, I believe because it serves the Kingdom relates to how a believer can live in earth while being present with the Lord. So my very own history matters each day. I am a slow absorber of the scriptures but I believe as I am convicted in increased understanding that I must understand the sacredness of Life in my day to day accountabilities. Regarding the numbers, my thoughts are many numbers are not firm to a day, and examples of multiplication may not be always accurate. Revelation reveals Christ to believers as an unbeliever must come to Christ first, yet the book is in the Bible for their day, present and available to know Jesus in Heaven too.
Who would be the 12 elders from the Old Testament mentioned in your post???, which already are clothed in white raiment; and have on their heads crowns of gold.
By the way, from the New Testament, you should know that all the saints, but all, including the Apostles, they all still are waiting their resurrection of this last Day( John 11:24), i.e. the SEVENTH and last Day or the current SEVENTH and last millennium.
As far as I know at this time, of all the New Testament saints there is none in heaven who was clothed in white raiment; and have on their heads crowns of gold. You should restudy your interpretation.
Good evening! Part of the interpretation of revelation is believing that our lives our written in heaven while we live in earth. So we live with hope. "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affections on things above, not on things of the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
Colossians 3:1-3
"And has raised us up together, and made us sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:26
So then, in part, this day is spoken of while the work of Christ continues in earthen vessels.
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, am am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21
You quoted Luke 20:36-Neither can they DIE ANYMORE:for they are equal unto the angels,and are the children of God,being the CHILDREN of the RESURRECTION.(Didn't you understand what JESUS is revealing by His Word here?The RESURRECTION still did not happen,it will be happen now,even now,in this current seventh and last Day,the LORD's Day,or the current seventh and last millennium.The Word is GOD,self-executable.It is important to remember what was revealed by Peter Apostle in 2Peter 3:8 and 7 and...).
Havent you read the verse 35? 35But they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world(the next world-the KINGDOM of GOD- Revelation 11:15-18.TAKE A LOOK),and the RESURRECTION from the dead,neither marry,nor are given in marriage:
Again:The RESURRECTION did not happen yet,it was previously determined for this seventh and last Day,understand?And the RESURRECTION will happen before JESUS coming,understand? 1Thessalonians 4:13-18:
13But I would not have you to be ignorant,brethren,concerning them which are asleep,that ye sorrow not,even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS will GODd bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord-the Word is GOD-,that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord SHAL NOT PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL-MICHAEL-,and with the trump of GOD:and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...to meet the Lord...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It's written:At that time Michael stand up,and there shall be a time of trouble,such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time,and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt-Dan.12:1-2and JESUS confirmed
Oseas, Michael, the Prince, is Jesus Christ. He shall stand up because he will be finished doing his work, as our high priest, of interceding for us in the heavenly temple. We will be sealed at this time.
That's why he says, let the righteous be righteous still and let the wicked be wicked still. All humans on earth will have made a cognitive decision for or against God. The sealing is a mental decision. It is an immovable and unshakeable conviction to the point of death.
I would respectively disagree here; as filthy garments vs unspotted and unwrinkled ones (see Eph. 5:27). We are responsible as believers who; upon salvation would receive white; clean garments to maintain them. This is what differentiates us from the O.T. as you brought out; now we have Christ's righteousness available to us through the Spirit; but we can allow ourselves to become tarnished from the world; flesh and the Devil. Dying to self now involves daily discipline and perseverance through trials; and for some martyrdom.
Revelation 5 I believe is symbolic of believers that need to purify themselves through martyrdom. Whether these are believers who are lukewarm and left behind certainly seems plausible to me. If it is new believers; it shows that the only real way to bear fruit at that time is through death; unlike now when we have the opportunity to do so through functions we practice largely in the corporate Body but not exclusively. There simply will not be room for compromise; and at that time as the book of Daniel indicates the saints will be overcome; unlike now when the gates of hell will NOT prevail against the church. This will be at the time when ALL nations will hate us; and kill us thinking they are doing God a favor ( John 16:2). This as I see it is likely with the Apostate church who will be the only organized religion after the Rapture; and likely this is a separate event from the martyrs who refuse the Mark of the Beast later on; after Satan goes after all the false AND true religion to get all the glory for himself; thus overthrowing the "Mystery Babylon" system.
I will agree that fear and spiritual oppression are what really cause defeat; many times fear of death and persecution. Yet it is true freedom and release and nothing to fear to die in Christ once we pass this earthly existance. Some; I feel are hidden and God will use the Tribulation to violently sift the wheat so to speak to bear fruit (Tribulum concept)
Thank you Richard. Surely the filthy garment for the new in Life will be washed by the Blood clean? So the Souls that had been slain have changed their garments already in the Gospel setting the time of the fifth seal in this part of the Revelation. The most important part is that Satan stands between the simple, repentant believer wanting salvation and God rebukes (stands) him by the Son even while we were in iniquity at the time.
Ze.3 the vision is about a remnant of the nation of Israel. Joshua the name a variant of Jesus. The former is the Hebrew and the other Hellenized and both mean the same:God our Salvation. Re.7 relates to the sealing of 12x12x100. (here we have 12 as a tag for the tribes literal number x gospel of God and gospel of God as one. 100 is used to indicate latter days.) In place of the tribes we have 144,000 from the left behind church stepping in as Seth stepped in place of Abel.
Satan resisting the angel of the Lord is similar to him resisting the body of Moses, in the epistle of Jude "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."(v.9) The comparison is apt. Joshua the high priest represents the remnant of the nation that be allowed in, coming as they from the great tribulation, their garments are unlike the martyrs resting under the altar of souls. "that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held."(vv.9-11) Re.6.
Ze.3:2-3 "is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?/Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel." plucked out of the fire refers to the great tribulation.
In Zechariah 3:1-4 Joshua was with an angel of the LORD and Satan was there to resist him. Though Jerusalem was precious in the Lord's eye, Satan looked down on Israel not able to keep the Commandments of God and thus remaining in filthy garments, yet, God rebukes Satan and changes Joshua's raiment by taking away his iniquity.
The white robes of the fifth seal were also a change of raiment for the souls that were slain for the word of God and were given rest under the alter until their fellow servants and their brethren lives were also taken.
What these Saints had battled was Satan and his angels standing up against them as they washed their filthy garments in the blood of the Lamb at Calvary. These Saints are asking how long will the Lord wait to avenge their blood on the earth. It would be likely the vengeance they are asking for is against evil spirits standing against man's salvation.
we are looking at a vision in Re.4 There we have the command,' Come up hither,' (4:1) We have the heaven the highest heaven and the sea of glass and altar of souls on which the throne is set. The same sea of glass we seen from the POV of Ezekiel who was among the exiles. Now St John is at the eye of level of throne in heaven.
Ezekiel from below sees the same sea of glass, "And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above."(Ez.1:22)
The souls slain for the martyrs are on the earth. They are not ressurected yet. As prayers of saints from the earth reach so the cries of the dead from lower parts reach heaven. Resurrection of the dead are in their order and it is not as you seem to imply.
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
The Lamb who prevailed upon to open the seals is St John's vision which we have in the Book of Daniel through the eye of OT saints. These are one and the same. Horsemen are color-coded to indicate the judgment so death on a pale horse shall be judged in due time. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."(1 Co.15:26)
Inaugural vision where St John sees the risen Christ and the Ancient of Days as one. They are in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks. This is a signal of the last Act in the Salvation 'Drama' where wars (sword),pestilence and plague shall be removed. "and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."(Re.21:4) The Book 'written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals." is both blessings and judgment.
These 24 elders are memorial unto God and they are witnesses to the body that has been prepared for the Son. By the same token the four beasts are memorial to God who appointed the Man as His steward over all creation. The beast with the face of man is the last Adam. " and the third beast had a face as a man"(Re.4:7) Each animal that represents His glory has specific characteristics associated with his Son. His faith as a lion, humility as calf, and eagle about to fly, is his prayer life. The third beast is that of a lamb since in Re.22:1 we are shown the composite throne of God and of the Lamb, signifying New Jerusalem and Zion.
"And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."(Re.4:4) Reuben cannot be among the eternal memorial wearing gold of an overcome. Neither Judas Iscariot for his betrayal. "Lo I overcame the world" Jesus testified. God rested from his labors knowing the 24 elders testified his faith. Fulness of the Son fills heaven earth and the lower parts. He went in Spirit and preached to souls in prison. So the Spirit sets them 8x3 =24. Three is the command number for the Son, He represents Trinity by the number; 4 for the Word become flesh. and he visited souls in prison and preached and it to which 'Cast thy bread upon waters' indicates "Give a portion to seven, and also to eight;"(Ec.11:1-2). Compare with Isaiah 55:11
These 24 elders praise God continually because faith of God rested having framed the worlds by faith.(He.11:3)
Who would be the 12 elders from the Old Testament mentioned in your post???, which already are clothed in white raiment; and have on their heads crowns of gold.
By the way, from the New Testament, you should know that all the saints, but all, including the Apostles, they all still are waiting their resurrection of this last Day( John 11:24), i.e. the SEVENTH and last Day or the current SEVENTH and last millennium.
As far as I know at this time, of all the New Testament saints there is none in heaven who was clothed in white raiment; and have on their heads crowns of gold. You should restudy your interpretation.
Colossians 3:1-3
"And has raised us up together, and made us sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:26
So then, in part, this day is spoken of while the work of Christ continues in earthen vessels.
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, am am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21
All the Old testament saints and the New testament saints were RAISED with Christ.
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
Ephesians 2:6 and hath raised us up together .....
Luke 20:36 Neither can they DIE ANYMORE: for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the RESURRECTION.
John 8:51 .... if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Luke 9:27 ... there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death.
God Bless You
You quoted Luke 20:36-Neither can they DIE ANYMORE:for they are equal unto the angels,and are the children of God,being the CHILDREN of the RESURRECTION.(Didn't you understand what JESUS is revealing by His Word here?The RESURRECTION still did not happen,it will be happen now,even now,in this current seventh and last Day,the LORD's Day,or the current seventh and last millennium.The Word is GOD,self-executable.It is important to remember what was revealed by Peter Apostle in 2Peter 3:8 and 7 and...).
Havent you read the verse 35? 35But they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world(the next world-the KINGDOM of GOD- Revelation 11:15-18.TAKE A LOOK),and the RESURRECTION from the dead,neither marry,nor are given in marriage:
Again:The RESURRECTION did not happen yet,it was previously determined for this seventh and last Day,understand?And the RESURRECTION will happen before JESUS coming,understand? 1Thessalonians 4:13-18:
13But I would not have you to be ignorant,brethren,concerning them which are asleep,that ye sorrow not,even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS will GODd bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord-the Word is GOD-,that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord SHAL NOT PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL-MICHAEL-,and with the trump of GOD:and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...to meet the Lord...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It's written:At that time Michael stand up,and there shall be a time of trouble,such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time,and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt-Dan.12:1-2and JESUS confirmed
That's why he says, let the righteous be righteous still and let the wicked be wicked still. All humans on earth will have made a cognitive decision for or against God. The sealing is a mental decision. It is an immovable and unshakeable conviction to the point of death.
Revelation 5 I believe is symbolic of believers that need to purify themselves through martyrdom. Whether these are believers who are lukewarm and left behind certainly seems plausible to me. If it is new believers; it shows that the only real way to bear fruit at that time is through death; unlike now when we have the opportunity to do so through functions we practice largely in the corporate Body but not exclusively. There simply will not be room for compromise; and at that time as the book of Daniel indicates the saints will be overcome; unlike now when the gates of hell will NOT prevail against the church. This will be at the time when ALL nations will hate us; and kill us thinking they are doing God a favor ( John 16:2). This as I see it is likely with the Apostate church who will be the only organized religion after the Rapture; and likely this is a separate event from the martyrs who refuse the Mark of the Beast later on; after Satan goes after all the false AND true religion to get all the glory for himself; thus overthrowing the "Mystery Babylon" system.
I will agree that fear and spiritual oppression are what really cause defeat; many times fear of death and persecution. Yet it is true freedom and release and nothing to fear to die in Christ once we pass this earthly existance. Some; I feel are hidden and God will use the Tribulation to violently sift the wheat so to speak to bear fruit (Tribulum concept)
Ze.3 the vision is about a remnant of the nation of Israel. Joshua the name a variant of Jesus. The former is the Hebrew and the other Hellenized and both mean the same:God our Salvation. Re.7 relates to the sealing of 12x12x100. (here we have 12 as a tag for the tribes literal number x gospel of God and gospel of God as one. 100 is used to indicate latter days.) In place of the tribes we have 144,000 from the left behind church stepping in as Seth stepped in place of Abel.
Satan resisting the angel of the Lord is similar to him resisting the body of Moses, in the epistle of Jude "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."(v.9) The comparison is apt. Joshua the high priest represents the remnant of the nation that be allowed in, coming as they from the great tribulation, their garments are unlike the martyrs resting under the altar of souls. "that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held."(vv.9-11) Re.6.
Ze.3:2-3 "is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?/Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel." plucked out of the fire refers to the great tribulation.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?