I am speaking of those who are repeatedly guilty in the flesh. They would be even more guilty in the practice of presumptuous sin.
Ultimately, this is blasphemous to the teachings of God's Word. God's forgiveness of our sin is eternal. But, there are consequences to the commission of willful sin in the belief beforehand that God will make it all right- presumptive in believing by doing so God has granted permission.
Paul was very adamant that pastors and teachers are held to an even greater standard.
Would a church or body of believers be led by such a person? It seems the body of elders would be remiss if they allowed such a person to lead worship or serve in any capacity of leadership.
I believe God has the power to forgive even the most vile of sinners, and unlike us the power also to forget. But to repair such a rift with God is on the shoulders of the sinner in genuinely seeking forgiveness instead of assuming it!
If we viewed the sins and transgressions of any one of us as torn pieces of a picture, God has the power to tape us back together. The damaged image would again be whole, but the seams created by our memories have to remain as lessons to us; thus consequences.
It seems to me evident that the person standing before God should be disqualified to lead others because that is not in accordance with the Scriptures.
Yes I agree, Rkroller with what you've shared here. Except, if such a sinning pastor/elder/teacher continues on in ministry, who then will remove him? Would any of the council/eldership call for his removal? As the world is continually numbed down in relation to serious moral/ethical matters, so to this apathy & fear of man has crept into the Church & made her a diluted misdirected group of ignorant souls, showing none of the Glory & Power of the Lord by their presence in the world. Of course, we might not know of God's Spirit's Work in that leader's life & that if he continues, that God Himself might remove him, so it is up to each Bible-believing, Bible-searching member of the Fellowship to judge his/her own position in such a situation. And of course, it's not only sins of the flesh that are brought to account, but also the great sin of mistreatment of God's Word. Anyway, how many of them are out there in the Churches, deceiving & being deceived?
How many? As many as fall willing victims to the Great Deceiver!
But here is the rub. We know the logs in our own eyes, and it makes us loathe to speak of the splinters in the eyes of someone glorying in a false sense of security, and thereby harming and soiling the very bride of Christ!
Is it more fearful to risk the approval of others than to fail to stand upon God's Word? I cannot balance my own sinful nature against another, and surely any sense of righteousness is like unto a filthy rag in the eyes of God.
I therefore pose a question based upon the Truth. Would any Christian parent be so willing to see their children led down a pathway to hell due to fear of condemnation?
What I am aiming toward in this discussion is the spiritual health of a body of believers.
Paul lashed out in I Corinthians against the behavior of a single member of that church and directed them to do what he would certainly do if he were present; put him out of the church.
As we know in the subsequent letter, Paul advised that they comfort - therefore forgive - that individual so as to spare him over much sorrow. But this did not imply that this individual be elevated to leadership! Such a matter has to fall within the purview of church government in the elders.
In all of the twists and turns of this discussion, arguments have been made from solid perspectives. The questions we need to ask of ourselves is whether or not we enter upon a search for answers with our own opinions in tow, or whether we ask for guidance in discerning that which is right and that which is wrong.
We should begin kneeling - not standing and preening. It is better to be a humble believer knowing that God is Love. He is also Holy and Just. Are we not also called to seek obedience to those attributes?
Great thoughts there Rkroller & I can see your passion & concern over Christ's Church, for her development, & the accountability of both the leadership & the laity. As I read through it, my mind drifted to the fledgling NT Church, where the new members brought into the Church Body were very likely ignorant of not only the OT Scriptures, but also Christ's requirements for His Church. They would have been highly dependent on the apostles & those especially taught by them to take over in leadership, pastoring, & teaching, for their instruction in the faith & godly living.
The Church today, and I'm thinking more of the independent gatherings (i.e. those not governmental in structure), as probably having a good number of folk (both men & women) that might be better versed in theology & arguments in defence of the faith, than the elder/pastor himself. And this can be quite daunting to the one appointed to leadership, yet as you intimated, the Body is not in competition with each other to outdo one another, but in love & servitude, ensure the spiritual health & well-being of all. It might be that the leader might need help here - and so we need to lay all the matters, including our weaknesses & deficiencies, with the Holy Spirit Who will always ensure each individual develops into Christ-likeness & Christ's Church will remain vibrant & true to their Lord. But when wilfulness & sin are apparent & not addressed according to biblical guidance & warnings, I believe that Church is marked for rejection & self-destruction; and we have enough examples of this in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. These might exist as an external structure & a form of godliness, yet of no use in the Master's Hands & their light all but extinguished. The quality of the leaders both in biblical knowledge & Christian graces is paramount if the Church is to be led aright & experience the fullness of God's blessings.
What is adultery in God's eyes?
Is it adultery in the FLESH, or adultery against God in our BELIEFS?
Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Revelation 17:5 And upon HER head was a name written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS (adulteresses) AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Which is more important to God, removing ministers that commit adultery in the flesh, or sin against God in their beliefs and teachings.
If the are corrected in their BELIEFS, they want sin in the flesh.
God Bless YOU!
Ultimately, this is blasphemous to the teachings of God's Word. God's forgiveness of our sin is eternal. But, there are consequences to the commission of willful sin in the belief beforehand that God will make it all right- presumptive in believing by doing so God has granted permission.
Paul was very adamant that pastors and teachers are held to an even greater standard.
Would a church or body of believers be led by such a person? It seems the body of elders would be remiss if they allowed such a person to lead worship or serve in any capacity of leadership.
I believe God has the power to forgive even the most vile of sinners, and unlike us the power also to forget. But to repair such a rift with God is on the shoulders of the sinner in genuinely seeking forgiveness instead of assuming it!
If we viewed the sins and transgressions of any one of us as torn pieces of a picture, God has the power to tape us back together. The damaged image would again be whole, but the seams created by our memories have to remain as lessons to us; thus consequences.
It seems to me evident that the person standing before God should be disqualified to lead others because that is not in accordance with the Scriptures.
But here is the rub. We know the logs in our own eyes, and it makes us loathe to speak of the splinters in the eyes of someone glorying in a false sense of security, and thereby harming and soiling the very bride of Christ!
Is it more fearful to risk the approval of others than to fail to stand upon God's Word? I cannot balance my own sinful nature against another, and surely any sense of righteousness is like unto a filthy rag in the eyes of God.
I therefore pose a question based upon the Truth. Would any Christian parent be so willing to see their children led down a pathway to hell due to fear of condemnation?
What I am aiming toward in this discussion is the spiritual health of a body of believers.
Paul lashed out in I Corinthians against the behavior of a single member of that church and directed them to do what he would certainly do if he were present; put him out of the church.
As we know in the subsequent letter, Paul advised that they comfort - therefore forgive - that individual so as to spare him over much sorrow. But this did not imply that this individual be elevated to leadership! Such a matter has to fall within the purview of church government in the elders.
In all of the twists and turns of this discussion, arguments have been made from solid perspectives. The questions we need to ask of ourselves is whether or not we enter upon a search for answers with our own opinions in tow, or whether we ask for guidance in discerning that which is right and that which is wrong.
We should begin kneeling - not standing and preening. It is better to be a humble believer knowing that God is Love. He is also Holy and Just. Are we not also called to seek obedience to those attributes?
The Church today, and I'm thinking more of the independent gatherings (i.e. those not governmental in structure), as probably having a good number of folk (both men & women) that might be better versed in theology & arguments in defence of the faith, than the elder/pastor himself. And this can be quite daunting to the one appointed to leadership, yet as you intimated, the Body is not in competition with each other to outdo one another, but in love & servitude, ensure the spiritual health & well-being of all. It might be that the leader might need help here - and so we need to lay all the matters, including our weaknesses & deficiencies, with the Holy Spirit Who will always ensure each individual develops into Christ-likeness & Christ's Church will remain vibrant & true to their Lord. But when wilfulness & sin are apparent & not addressed according to biblical guidance & warnings, I believe that Church is marked for rejection & self-destruction; and we have enough examples of this in Revelation chapters 2 & 3. These might exist as an external structure & a form of godliness, yet of no use in the Master's Hands & their light all but extinguished. The quality of the leaders both in biblical knowledge & Christian graces is paramount if the Church is to be led aright & experience the fullness of God's blessings.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?