When someone who is a true believer dies he will be in God's presence when God is ready for him to be, so I don't understand the disunity in the church about "sleeping" or "not sleeping" when we die. Does the salvation of our soul depend on whether we believe one way or the other? No, so I ask again, why this disunity in God's church?
You are correct, our salvation does not depend on whether we believe in "soul sleep" or "soul death" as opposed to the continuance of the soul as alive after the death of the body. So it is still good to discuss it if we use Scripture as our guide ad rule.
I am encouraged by the words of our Savior and Lord in John 11:25-26
"I am the resurrection and the life. He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER die. Believest thou this?"
Jesus knew that people from that time forth would certainly die physically as to their bodies dying, just as those who lived before him died in the body. But here He says that, though the body dies, we still live on. He is speaking of our soul's continued existence after the body dies. Can't be any clearer than this. He asks a good question: Believest thou this? I believe what He says here and look forward to being alive with Him when my body dies and to see those believers who have died before I die and those who die after I die. We will have a great reunion in the life to come. We have eternal life in Jesus as believers and so this means our soul will not die but will be reunited with our bodies when our bodies are resurrected.
Also John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear my voice (in this life), and I know them, and they follow me. And I five unto them eternal life and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
So good to know that we have eternal life now, even if we die, we live on, not in our bodies, but in our soul and spirit, until the resurrection when our bodies will join with our soul and spirit once again and then be forever alive.
Please don't misunderstand my comment to the two scriptures you used in this discussion. I won't say if I believe in soul sleep or being in God's presence immediately but I do want to say in these scriptures, I believe, that Jesus was saying in John 11: 25-26 and John 10: 27-28 simply that once someone is saved they have eternal life promised them and will be with Him when He is ready for them to be, whether sleeping first or going right away. Whether He meant it one way or another the promise of eternal life is what matters. God Bless :)
He says this above and that not believing his opinion is "extremely dangerous doctrine". Interesting.
What matters is what God says, not one man's opinion, regardless of how loud he shouts it. I'm not aware of any scripture supporting his claim, but know of some saying the opposite.
1 Corinthians 6:19 The Word says our bodies are not our own, implying that it only temporarily hosts us.
1 Corinthians 5:3 - Paul says his spirit is present with them, although his body is absent.
Verses about sleeping awaiting judgment. The body is obviously dead, but the soul obviously is in a state of waiting.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
What are we: a body or a soul/spirit? If a hand gets cut off do we really lose part of our soul too, or is it just a physical appendage separate from us?
Many have out of body experiences- well documented in books and videos, where people have hovered over their bodies watching and noticing things they could not have noticed if they were actually confined to their body.
In summary, Biblical evidence and personal testimony evidence does not support that claim above.
"The soul does not exist without the body" I was wondering what exactly do you mean by this comment? I've heard it before but have never understood it very well. God Bless :)
Hey GiGi, an observation on your reference to John 11:25, Jesus did indeed "explain" that he was the resurrection and the life. But if you notice verse 23 and 24, when he says.. "Thy brother shall rise again", Martha, having listened to the teachings of Jesus on many occasions, says.. v24 Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection AT THE LAST DAY. just saying.
The question of soul sleep versus being immediately in the presence of God is hugely important. The belief that a dead person's soul lives on is extremely dangerous doctrine.
1. The Vatican has made lots of money from people who, in history past, had to pay money for a dead relative's release from purgatory. That's one of the way that the Vatican became rich.
2. Purgatory cannot be a real place if people are sleeping.
3. The idea of purgatory makes a person relax and not consider their future. It's very dangerous for their eternal soul. The person believes they have plenty of time to sort stuff out. Purgatory is a safety net for them. They think they will never go to hell, they will just spend a little time in purgatory.
4. God said not to consult the dead. But, many people will not hesitate to ask a psychic to speak to a dead relative. That is inviting demons into one's life. All dead people are asleep. They cannot speak from the grave. They are not watching over us.
5. Psychics make money off this but they are really speaking to demons.
Now, you obviously do not consult the dead. And, you are clearly a solid believer. And, clearly, you love the LORD.
But, many people, such as Catholics, are mislead by the doctrine. And, many, many Catholics pray to dead saints and dead relatives. Masses are said for dead relatives. Candles are lit for dead relatives. I had a priest tell me decades ago that my dead relative was released from purgatory. This ordinary man thought to tell me what was going on in the supernatural realm. No. This cannot be. It's all a big lie.
My comment was directed exclusive to the Body of Christ. Why do we differ in this belief when it doesn't matter to those of us who are believers. We will be in God's presence when He wants us to. We should be a witness to those outside God's church, who need salvation, that believe all those false doctrines and "ghost stories," but in the church why have this disunity. It does make for good discussions but let's discuss how we can help sinners who believe these things to find Jesus and then they will be in the Church and they can decide if they want to believe if they sleep or are in God's presence right away. Just Saying God Bless :)
Hello Hadassah, You have conflated many beliefs into the belief that the soul lives on after death. In doing so you have clouded the issue presented here.
Most Christians who believe that the soul continue to live after death do not believe in purgatory or praying to or for the dead or consulting psychics to interact with dead people's spirits. So such topics are truly not part of the discussion at hand, which is, does the soul die with the body or does the soul continue to live after death.
Those of us who believe that the soul continues to live on either in the presence of God in blessedness or in hell in turmoil. And we have directed people involved in this discussion with the Scriptures in Luke 16 where Jesus discusses a man named Lazarus who died and went to Abraham's bosom and an unrighteous man who died and went to Hell and was in torment; Paul's statements in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 where he says that to be absent from the body, (as in a soul being separated from the body in death) is to be present with the Lord; and Revelations 6:9 and 20:4 where the souls of the saints are with God. These Scriptures are not influenced by Greek philosophy nor the Catholic teachings, rather, are inspired by The Holy Spirit and therefore are God's words to us.
Also, Scriptures tells us that our bodies will be resurrected when Christ returns, not that our souls will be resurrected.
These Scriptures teach me that the soul lives on after the body dies.
", You have conflated many beliefs into the belief that the soul lives on after death. In doing so you have clouded the issue presented here."
Secondly, I know plenty of professed Protestant Christians who believe their dead relative watches over them or claim to have seen a dead relative's ghost. I know plenty of non religious people of no denomination that believe in ghosts. Catholic children are confirmed at age twelve and must choose a saint. Catholics pray to dead people for protection and other favors and are also told to pray to Mary. There are millions of Catholics that call themselves Christian.
The state of the soul at death is a serious issue whether you realize it or not.
Thirdly, the story of Lazarus and the rich man, that Jesus shared, was a COMMON PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a teaching lesson. Now, compare that parable to when Lazarus ( Martha and Mary's brother) died. He was in the grave and came back. He did not write a book about how lovely heaven was. He did not describe his experience in heaven to anyone. Nor did Lazarus complain that he wished Jesus would have left him happily in heaven. Lazurus was asleep.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Jesus stated Lazarus is sleeping. Lazarus is dead.
In order for the body to have life, it must have the soul.
Now, about Paul: below quoted from Amazing Facts: Absent from the Body
"If we go to be with the Lord by means of our immortal spirit when we die, then we do not go to be with Him by means of the visible coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead and the change of the living. Then Paul's words would not be true. There is no possible way of avoiding this conclusion, except by claiming that the descent of the Lord from heaven, the mighty shout, the trumpet, the resurrection of the dead, and the change of the living, ALL TAKE PLACE WHEN A PERSON DIES-a position too absurd to be considered."
You are right about people, even Christians (so sad), who believe loved ones who were believers are watching them while in the beautiful, unimaginable Prescence of God and looking down on this wretched, cursed earth that they have left behind. It makes no sense in any way other them it gives them a false comfort while grieving for loosing that loved one. Unfortunately, as you said, the secular world has picked up on this and they believe a dead loved one is looking down on them and helping them in some way. Why would God allow this? Does he need the help of these souls to watch over people because He is to busy to do it himself or does he feel the loved one there with him needs to be able to do this if they want to (I certainly wouldn't) to give them some kind of peace of mind to be sure their loved ones are doing ok? All of this is totally ridiculous to me and, as I said, very sad. I have never had the opportunity to talk to someone who believe this, I've just seen it on TV or in movies or in testimonies on YouTube. Another popular false doctrine that is very prominent now is that people who seemed to have died are coming back from supposedly being dead with all kinds of stories of what they saw, what God told them, etc. They were just in a deep dream and if they are supposedly told something while visiting heaven and/or God that they couldn't have known before it is just their subconscious bringing it up. They may not realized they heard it but they must have at one time and then it was buried in their subscience. For example, the little boy that claims to know about a baby he shouldn't have known about or his mother going to the hospital chapel while he was unconscious. The parents or anyone may have talked in front of him while he was unconscious about these things and then he would know it when he wakes up. When you die physically, God takes care of you accordingly, heaven or to hell. These things are bordering on idolatry. God Bless :)
I agree Momsage, there is no clear instruction or evidence of departed souls in Heaven looking down upon us. I feel that this belief developed from certain passages, such as Matthew 18:10 (angelic activity & witness on behalf of children); 1 Peter 1:10-12 (angelic interest in the workings of the Gospel & people's response to it); and Hebrews 12:1 (the cloud of witnesses: are they actually witnessing/observing our lives on Earth, or is the message for us, 'to lay aside sin & run the race with patience, since we have those who have done so before us which should be our example, or witness to us?). So, if there is angelic observance, some might be inclined, even for comfort sake, also believe that departed souls also have similar opportunity, interest & power to do so. This is probably a belief best left aside for the Word is not specific on it & should not be taught as fact. And I've always thought, that if souls are in the presence of the Lord, would there even be any desire to cast the 'mind' or 'eyes' anywhere else, rather than behold the Glory & Beauty of God in continual worship of Him?
I disagree that there are no instructions in the scripture warning against this idolatry because that's exactly what it is and people need to understand that. This isn't some minor, little thing that doesn't matter. Do you trust God alone or do you believe He needs their help? They may not have graven images of their departed loved one but acknowledging them in any way that belongs to God is idolatry. Catholics say they don't worship statues and that is true, they worship the dead person the statue represents. The devil has lulled those who don't accept the doctrine of the Catholic Church of worshiping idols to do it in a more subtle way. They may not have graven images of their departed loved one but acknowledging them in any way that belongs to God is idolatry. Exodus 20: 1-4 and Dueteronomy 5:6-9, clearly command us to not worship anyone or anything but God. When a person is trusting their departed loved ones to help them or comfort them or protect them in some way, isnt that idolatry? Isn't that looking to a false God? Isn't that loving (worshiping) them more by wanting their help rather then God's help? It is diminishing their faith in God by asking a dead person for whatever instead of God. This is a serious mistake and, I believe, should be taught against. We need to witness to them with a gentle spirit to help them see how this is damaging their soul. If you dont agree this is idolatry, or is a serious soul matter, then please explain what it is and why it doesn't matter. Also see 1 Corinthians 10:14, Exodus 23:13, Isaiah 42:8a, Exodus 34:14. God Bless :)
and it doesn't matter if there are no specific scriptures saying yes or no to this issues, what matters is that to many believers see it as true and not as idolatry.
Thank you Momsage. I'm sorry, I really don't know what you are referring to or 'talking' about. What I wrote about was that some people on Earth have developed a belief that their departed loved ones in Heaven are conscious of them or observing them. To this point alone, I believe that no Scripture gives support.
However, you're referring to those on Earth who look to their loved ones in Heaven as administering some degree of help, comfort, protection or blessing to those on Earth. This belief I acknowledge is totally erroneous having no Scriptural basis, indeed, negates or dilutes the complete Work of the Spirit in a believer's life. And I don't see it as idolatry when those who simply believe that loved ones in Heaven are looking down upon them - and nothing more (and this is not confined only in RC/Orthodox circles, but many others hold to it as well); it is just that this belief is not found in Scripture. I think I understood your comment correctly; please let me know whether my response here to you is incorrect or disturbing.
Oops. neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away " except you'll be able to look down on that cursed thing that's passed away, just because your left behind loved ones want you too. This is nonsense. Rev. 21:4 paraphrased. Also I have heard many times people who have testified of how their deceased "grandmother " has brought them comfort or peach of mind, etc. I read about one woman who couldn't find a will she really needed. She was stressed out about it. Then she said her deceased mother caused her to remember something that led her to finding the will. The publication was very reliable. So she gave her mother looking down on her from heaven, the credit instead of God. That is idolatry. You can shrug this off as many people do but I believe it should be discourged.
1 John 5:21 "little children keep yourselves from idols. Amen "
Why would God allow this kind of distraction away from Himself and why would anyone want to be distracted away from Him? Catholics do the same thing with Mary but there are no scriptures telling us not to worship her but we know it's wrong because it's idolatry, well so is asking "grandma May" to help me pass a test God Bless. :)
I don't know what connection Revelation 21:4 has with what is being discussed. That reference is about the New heaven & Earth. And you wrote, "...except you'll be able to look down on that cursed thing that's passed away, just because your left behind loved ones want you too." I'm truly confused with your thinking.
And I'm not talking about examples of "deceased grandmothers bringing peace & comfort". I refer simply to some who holds a belief that departed souls are able to look down upon them or the affairs of the world. I think you are bringing in RC beliefs into a normal human enquiry whether the spirits of those departed to Heaven have knowledge or sight into things on Earth. What someone wants to develop on that, then leads to all manner of erroneous belief, even sin. So let's not color a simple human wonder or fascination in the after-life into something quite sinister & anti-biblical.
Hey Chris: I asked you this once before but you didn't answer me: what is RC? I have no idea what it is that you keep accusing me off.
Your comments seem to be talking about a completely different aspect to what I am referring to, someone who just wonders if angles or even departed loved ones might be looking down on us but leaves it at that, is not committing idolatry, they are simply wondering as you say, however they are not the souls I'm concerned about, however I'm not going to comment about this issue anymore. I believe we need to end this discussion because it is getting us nowhere. I hope you will tell me what RC is.
I'm sorry Momsage, that I've neglected to answer your question about 'RC'. I searched through this thread for your question but could not find it - maybe you're referring to it in another thread. In any case, 'RC' is just the abbreviation for 'Roman Catholic' (or even RCC: Roman Catholic Church). Sometimes to acquire more spaces on this Site to write a comment, use of standard abbreviations are necessary. And to add, generally when referring to the RCC, I tend not to simply use the word 'Catholic', since as you would know, that word means 'universal'; and certainly God's 'universal' Church can include many independent congregations so regarded comprising His true Church. But by using Roman Catholic, one immediately identifies that Church which is founded on the Roman papacy & its specific, often aberrant, doctrines. Well, enough of that.
And yes, I do understand that your comments specifically referred to those who actually do attempt to consult those souls in Heaven to gain help or blessing (which I've stated are totally wrong), but what I brought out in these discussions with you, is that not everyone believes that type of intervention happens - and I did so to balance out your proposition that everyone who believes that loved ones in Heaven are ministering in some way to those on Earth. I felt that your thoughts were one-sided, very likely based on your RC upbringing & teaching, whereas this shouldn't be assumed to be a common belief among all who consider that those in Heaven might be aware of us on Earth. Anyway, as you wrote, we have declared our thoughts here, so this discussion seems to have reached its natural end. Thank you for it & every blessing.
Thank you for defining RC for me. Please don't accuse me of having beliefs based on the RC because I haven't been in that church since I was 18 and I'm now 76. LOL I do enjoy discussions with you
I just kind of felt this time we weren't connecting on what each one of us was saying. But it's all good. God Bless :)
Again, sorry I wasn't accusing you at all of 'holding onto' RC beliefs; I was stating that the beliefs you have shown to be erroneous (e.g. the intervention of those in Heaven to those on Earth), are what may well be believed & practised in the RCC, even now. I realize that you have, as with Hadassah, entirely come out of that 'Church' and for this I certainly have much to praise the Lord for; I too wait for acquaintances entrapped in that religious system to look into the Word for themselves & have the Spirit of God open their hearts & minds to the Truth, rather than tenaciously holding onto false beliefs & the fear of damnation if they are to leave that Church.
The bible doesn't talk about this belief, about departed loved ones seeing us from heaven, because it is a false belief that people have fallen for and embrace it as if it's a wonderful thing from God. Common bible sense should explain it is false. When the word says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no more death
And yes, I agree with you Momsage, that there is no clear indication about this in the Bible. However, since there is evidence of angelic observance of matters on Earth (as I shared earlier: Matthew 18:10 & 1 Peter 1:10-12) as well as Revelation 6:9,10 (the martyrs plea to God against those thirsty for their blood on Earth), one can see why this belief of a general observance from Heaven's 'residents' can be easily accepted. So for me, as much as I don't subscribe to it, I can understand why some do. And if such a belief doesn't lead to any sin of idolatry, diminishing of God's Holiness & Authority, or elevation of the heavenly ones to a place of refuge for us, then it is a belief that they will have to come to terms with in the Light of the Scriptures.
It really breaks my heart for deceived souls caught up in Catholicism. I'm so glad the Lord led me out. I think the reason I never really accepted it is because most of the priests and nuns were really mean to me but I always blamed them and not God. Despite their teaching I loved God very much growing up and believed in Him completely. Thinking of this thrills my soul even now. Praise the Lord. Goodbye again :)
You are correct, our salvation does not depend on whether we believe in "soul sleep" or "soul death" as opposed to the continuance of the soul as alive after the death of the body. So it is still good to discuss it if we use Scripture as our guide ad rule.
I am encouraged by the words of our Savior and Lord in John 11:25-26
"I am the resurrection and the life. He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER die. Believest thou this?"
Jesus knew that people from that time forth would certainly die physically as to their bodies dying, just as those who lived before him died in the body. But here He says that, though the body dies, we still live on. He is speaking of our soul's continued existence after the body dies. Can't be any clearer than this. He asks a good question: Believest thou this? I believe what He says here and look forward to being alive with Him when my body dies and to see those believers who have died before I die and those who die after I die. We will have a great reunion in the life to come. We have eternal life in Jesus as believers and so this means our soul will not die but will be reunited with our bodies when our bodies are resurrected.
Also John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear my voice (in this life), and I know them, and they follow me. And I five unto them eternal life and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
So good to know that we have eternal life now, even if we die, we live on, not in our bodies, but in our soul and spirit, until the resurrection when our bodies will join with our soul and spirit once again and then be forever alive.
You are mistaken. The soul does not exist without the body.The person must be a combination of both body and soul.
"Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?
Shall thy loving kindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Psalm 88:10-12
When you fall asleep at night, suddenly, it is morning. That is the object lesson of soul sleep.
He says this above and that not believing his opinion is "extremely dangerous doctrine". Interesting.
What matters is what God says, not one man's opinion, regardless of how loud he shouts it. I'm not aware of any scripture supporting his claim, but know of some saying the opposite.
1 Corinthians 6:19 The Word says our bodies are not our own, implying that it only temporarily hosts us.
1 Corinthians 5:3 - Paul says his spirit is present with them, although his body is absent.
Verses about sleeping awaiting judgment. The body is obviously dead, but the soul obviously is in a state of waiting.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
What are we: a body or a soul/spirit? If a hand gets cut off do we really lose part of our soul too, or is it just a physical appendage separate from us?
Many have out of body experiences- well documented in books and videos, where people have hovered over their bodies watching and noticing things they could not have noticed if they were actually confined to their body.
In summary, Biblical evidence and personal testimony evidence does not support that claim above.
1. The Vatican has made lots of money from people who, in history past, had to pay money for a dead relative's release from purgatory. That's one of the way that the Vatican became rich.
2. Purgatory cannot be a real place if people are sleeping.
3. The idea of purgatory makes a person relax and not consider their future. It's very dangerous for their eternal soul. The person believes they have plenty of time to sort stuff out. Purgatory is a safety net for them. They think they will never go to hell, they will just spend a little time in purgatory.
4. God said not to consult the dead. But, many people will not hesitate to ask a psychic to speak to a dead relative. That is inviting demons into one's life. All dead people are asleep. They cannot speak from the grave. They are not watching over us.
5. Psychics make money off this but they are really speaking to demons.
Now, you obviously do not consult the dead. And, you are clearly a solid believer. And, clearly, you love the LORD.
But, many people, such as Catholics, are mislead by the doctrine. And, many, many Catholics pray to dead saints and dead relatives. Masses are said for dead relatives. Candles are lit for dead relatives. I had a priest tell me decades ago that my dead relative was released from purgatory. This ordinary man thought to tell me what was going on in the supernatural realm. No. This cannot be. It's all a big lie.
Most Christians who believe that the soul continue to live after death do not believe in purgatory or praying to or for the dead or consulting psychics to interact with dead people's spirits. So such topics are truly not part of the discussion at hand, which is, does the soul die with the body or does the soul continue to live after death.
Those of us who believe that the soul continues to live on either in the presence of God in blessedness or in hell in turmoil. And we have directed people involved in this discussion with the Scriptures in Luke 16 where Jesus discusses a man named Lazarus who died and went to Abraham's bosom and an unrighteous man who died and went to Hell and was in torment; Paul's statements in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 where he says that to be absent from the body, (as in a soul being separated from the body in death) is to be present with the Lord; and Revelations 6:9 and 20:4 where the souls of the saints are with God. These Scriptures are not influenced by Greek philosophy nor the Catholic teachings, rather, are inspired by The Holy Spirit and therefore are God's words to us.
Also, Scriptures tells us that our bodies will be resurrected when Christ returns, not that our souls will be resurrected.
These Scriptures teach me that the soul lives on after the body dies.
Ps 30:9
Ps 17:15.
Ps 115:17
First, I do not understand your comment below:
", You have conflated many beliefs into the belief that the soul lives on after death. In doing so you have clouded the issue presented here."
Secondly, I know plenty of professed Protestant Christians who believe their dead relative watches over them or claim to have seen a dead relative's ghost. I know plenty of non religious people of no denomination that believe in ghosts. Catholic children are confirmed at age twelve and must choose a saint. Catholics pray to dead people for protection and other favors and are also told to pray to Mary. There are millions of Catholics that call themselves Christian.
The state of the soul at death is a serious issue whether you realize it or not.
Thirdly, the story of Lazarus and the rich man, that Jesus shared, was a COMMON PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a teaching lesson. Now, compare that parable to when Lazarus ( Martha and Mary's brother) died. He was in the grave and came back. He did not write a book about how lovely heaven was. He did not describe his experience in heaven to anyone. Nor did Lazarus complain that he wished Jesus would have left him happily in heaven. Lazurus was asleep.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Jesus stated Lazarus is sleeping. Lazarus is dead.
In order for the body to have life, it must have the soul.
Now, about Paul: below quoted from Amazing Facts: Absent from the Body
"If we go to be with the Lord by means of our immortal spirit when we die, then we do not go to be with Him by means of the visible coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead and the change of the living. Then Paul's words would not be true. There is no possible way of avoiding this conclusion, except by claiming that the descent of the Lord from heaven, the mighty shout, the trumpet, the resurrection of the dead, and the change of the living, ALL TAKE PLACE WHEN A PERSON DIES-a position too absurd to be considered."
However, you're referring to those on Earth who look to their loved ones in Heaven as administering some degree of help, comfort, protection or blessing to those on Earth. This belief I acknowledge is totally erroneous having no Scriptural basis, indeed, negates or dilutes the complete Work of the Spirit in a believer's life. And I don't see it as idolatry when those who simply believe that loved ones in Heaven are looking down upon them - and nothing more (and this is not confined only in RC/Orthodox circles, but many others hold to it as well); it is just that this belief is not found in Scripture. I think I understood your comment correctly; please let me know whether my response here to you is incorrect or disturbing.
1 John 5:21 "little children keep yourselves from idols. Amen "
Why would God allow this kind of distraction away from Himself and why would anyone want to be distracted away from Him? Catholics do the same thing with Mary but there are no scriptures telling us not to worship her but we know it's wrong because it's idolatry, well so is asking "grandma May" to help me pass a test God Bless. :)
And I'm not talking about examples of "deceased grandmothers bringing peace & comfort". I refer simply to some who holds a belief that departed souls are able to look down upon them or the affairs of the world. I think you are bringing in RC beliefs into a normal human enquiry whether the spirits of those departed to Heaven have knowledge or sight into things on Earth. What someone wants to develop on that, then leads to all manner of erroneous belief, even sin. So let's not color a simple human wonder or fascination in the after-life into something quite sinister & anti-biblical.
Your comments seem to be talking about a completely different aspect to what I am referring to, someone who just wonders if angles or even departed loved ones might be looking down on us but leaves it at that, is not committing idolatry, they are simply wondering as you say, however they are not the souls I'm concerned about, however I'm not going to comment about this issue anymore. I believe we need to end this discussion because it is getting us nowhere. I hope you will tell me what RC is.
God Bless :)
And yes, I do understand that your comments specifically referred to those who actually do attempt to consult those souls in Heaven to gain help or blessing (which I've stated are totally wrong), but what I brought out in these discussions with you, is that not everyone believes that type of intervention happens - and I did so to balance out your proposition that everyone who believes that loved ones in Heaven are ministering in some way to those on Earth. I felt that your thoughts were one-sided, very likely based on your RC upbringing & teaching, whereas this shouldn't be assumed to be a common belief among all who consider that those in Heaven might be aware of us on Earth. Anyway, as you wrote, we have declared our thoughts here, so this discussion seems to have reached its natural end. Thank you for it & every blessing.
I just kind of felt this time we weren't connecting on what each one of us was saying. But it's all good. God Bless :)
I was raised a Catholic but as soon I was on my own at 18 I left that soul deceiving doctrine immediately and found Jesus when I was 21.
Thank you for helping me understand. :) God bless you.
God has ALREADY COMPLETED his WORKS.
Now it's a matter of BELIEF.
Believing what he said he did is LIFE; NOW, never seeing death again, believing you took part in his resurrection.
This means YOU DIED, most wont accept that, even though his words SAY SO.
The wages of UNBELIEF is DEATH and the grave, until all the judges of the earth have been put in place.
Then the second resurrection, and the unbelievers will be judged by God's elect.
Psalms 149:5-9
Revelation 2:26-27
Jeremiah 51:17-23
1 Corinthians 6:2
You will not be a judge if you don't believe his words, you will be the judged.
God Bless YOU
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