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Genesis: 2:2-3 " Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made." Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
"seventh" shebiith: an ordinary number
"rested" sabath: cease, desist, rest
"sanctified, holy qadash consecrate
"sabbath" sabath intermission
These verses speak of the 4th commandment that God gave (not asked) us to obey to honor Him by resting on the seventh day. God saw this need for us, in order to refresh our bodies, minds and souls. He gave us the other nine, also, for our good. The world, unfortunately, has decided to disregard this commandment so there is no sanctified or consecrated day anymore given only to the Lord to worship Him and for ourselves to enjoy. Believers should recognized that God, not only gave this wonderful commandment to us for our good, but He emphasized it by commanding we remember it. However, He knew it would fall along the wayside. He knew believers would excuse away abstaining from labor on the Sabbath by this and that and the other thing. Believers try to use the scripture to excuse themselves from obeying this commandment but it is just as imperative for a believer to believe and obey this 4th commandment as it is for them to believe and obey the other nine. These commandments are of God. God wrote the them on tablets Himself. After that He gave Moses laws, statues and ordinances to help the people further understanding these commandments. These commandments are the foundation of our walk with God. Because the people had added to the Laws of Moses in many foolish ways these are what Jesus rid the world of when He came, but He didn't, in any way, abolish or change God's commandments. When God gave All His 10 commands to the race of Adam it was for always
The Baptist teach that Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Not sure what to think. I understand that the new testament does warn against honoring one day over another, but not sure what to think here. Also ceremonial law was done away with by Jesus..no more need for daily sacrifices. Then there are ones who say we should just choose one day a week and rest and devote that day to Yahweh because no one really knows about the calendars from one area of the country to another, and says may have been different then, sure they weren't named days etc.
Thoughts,?
I do want you to stay here with us.
Just as you quoted nonbiblical people to support your view, Jesse also quoted non-biblical people in support of his view. So if it was wrong for Jesse to do so, then it would be equally wrong for you to have quoted whom you did.
I hope you will stay with us here. We sometimes "step on each others' toes" at times but we do love each other. So, I guess that it is important to understand that we are all here to help each other as well as express a point of view. In regards to the topic of keeping the Sabbath law, we can agree that we disagree and then move forward. There are so many topics we agree on and many worthy of discussions, as this topic was. Hope to see you on another thread soon.
I read a little of Barnabas and he seemed to believe our hope for eternal life was something we are to strive for if we behave ourselves until we die. Anyway I only answered your reply because it didnt seem right not to. I have decided to stay with this forum but only with you and Christianlady7.
Keeping the SABBATH was a commandment of God not a law of the Jews. Talk to you soon. God Bless :)
I am also glad that you are still here with us. And I respect your decision to speak to whoever you wish. But I would also like to tell me which of my writtings annoyed you or whether I have used a hostile or impolite language. Anyway I am sorry if without me realizing it I have made you feel bad. I am glad that you are staying. GBU
Did you mean someone else? I do not recall sharing my views on this discussion.
Thanks for catching that error on my part. I hope your day goes wonderfully today.
It's been a while since I have posted anything here so I wasn't sure if maybe it was something I said a while back. Just checking.
You have a wonderful day too, and a great week. Blessings!
I always enjoy your posts and am blessed when we talk here.
When we stop to gas up our car on the Sabbath or pick up a few needed food items at the store we are expecting that there are others who will break the Sabbath law on Saturday or Sunday to provide these services for us. Is that right? While we are endeavoring to "Keep" the Sabbath, how many people are required to work in order for us to live out the day with electricity, water, sewer services, police officers and fire fighters who work on the Sabbath we keep to provide protection for us and our neighbors at all times. I do not think they are sinning if they work and I do not think that any believer sins if they rest at times other than the Sabbath. We live by the Spirit, not by the letter of the Law as Jesus (who gave the Law) illustrated so well in His Sermon on the Mount in Matthew's Gospel.
Some things to think about.
Picking corn on Sabbath out if necessity. Common sense is all that is needed to accomplish this obedience so there is no long list of do's abd don't's. Anyone who works on Saturday if they pray and believe God He will make a way out of it. There are plenty of people who have no regard for the things of God who can do what ever needs done. It is not a sin for true believers to worship and fellowship on Sunday. God has only command us to make one day, the seventh, as a complete day of rest and we can also worship since we don't have worldly distractions. Meals could be take out or prepared on Friday like in a slow cooker so everyone can help themselves etc. My whole point is Christians could do it no problem if they wanted to obey this commandment just like the others. God Bless :)
I wanted to differentiate between that and those such as Messianic Jews who may choose to worship on Saurdays. I have attended meetings in several of these type settings when I lived in Pittsburgh; and have seen how there is a fairly good acceptance of other believers such as myself who worship on Sundays. Nonetheless; there are reminders with events not to serve food that isn't considered Kosher which I suppose is ok not to offend those of the Jewish faith we wish to bring to Christ by not allowing our liberties to dissuade men. In regard to Saturday sabbath; it is clear that the PENALTY is for those who are in Israel who are cut off from God that disobey the Sabbath. In that regard it appears to be uniquely there for the Israelites only; while other laws such as divorce count for all men (as we see from examples with pagans who were told; for instance not to touch Abraham and Issac's wife when they were passed off as sisters; and John the Baptist being martyred for a pagan marrying his brothers wife). We could say the same of course for murder which is something found originally with Cain well before the law was delivered on Sinai.
God may well establish again some of this during the Millennial reign at least with the Temple which will keep people ceremonially clean around glorified saints and Christ after He returns as well as be a reminder of Christ's sacrifice for sin.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Reading your post of one day ago,saying if we are to look at the Seventh Day Adventists and their teachings of Ellen White it is clear that there are spurious elements there.As was prophesied by Daniel, the Judgment shall sit,the Judgment will be given to the saints of the most High;the time came that the saints possess the kingdom.By the way,I must say that I have come across and fought for decades with strong battles and terrible combats against atheists and materialists, anf for my surprise the most of them were/are people who abandoned or stopped attending the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Why is it that after the preachers/guides/pastors of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to compass sea and land to make proselytes, and after these proselytes attend their services for years,they leave the Adventist Church transformed into atheists,materialists? Unfortunately they made them twofold more the child of hell than themselves.
The earth is infested with betrayers who deny the existence of GOD,there are legions of them spread across the earth with which I have come across and fought for decades with strong battles and terrible combats,mainly through websites.I could quote the website links,I don't do due the rules.
See,the objective is not to condemn any brother or sister here.What does the Word of GOD say? James 5:
19Brethren,if any of you do err from the truth,and one convert him;
20Let him know,that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death,and shall hide a multitude of sins.
1Corinthians 6:
1Dare any of you,having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust,and not before the saints?
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the WORLD?and if the WORLD shall be Judged by you(by us),are ye(we)unworthy to Judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall Judge angels?(fallen angels of the Churches) how much more things that pertain to this life?
GOD BLESS
Even if the circumstance we face is not specifically enumerated in the law, such as pornography, abortion, or obeying the civil laws of our society, the Spirit helps us to know what is the right thing to do, but more importantly, the Spirit corrects our motives, attitudes, and thoughts concerning circumstances
Many of us who do not think that we are bound to obey the Sabbath law as the Jews did do hold all days as holy unto the Lord, meaning that we are to live each and every day unto Him, resting in His grace, mercy, and guidance as to the good we are to do each day, not just on the Sabbath. We read the word often, if not daily. We pray often, if not daily. We praise the Lord often, if not daily. We meet with other believers often, if not daily encouraging one another and building one another up in our common faith. Our day of rest is every day, believing that it is God who is at work in us to accomplish His will through us. We cannot do this ourselves. It requires the Holy Spirit to use us for Gpd's glory every day.
As to the Sabbath rest, many of us believe that we are not to work 7 days a week, nor from sun-up to sun-down. We believe we are to leave time for rest, relaxation, recreation, and family time. All of these are in the Spirit of the law of keeping the Sabbath. And we believe we are to set aside time to worship together, which is not prescribed in the law specifically as to what day or how often to attend worship services other that the times men are to go the temple for certain feasts each year.
Rainwalker, I respect you and anyone else who chooses to keep a Saturday Sabbath Day observance. But I also respect those who worship on Sundays or Wednesdays or any other day as well as those who make a point to not work on Saturday or Sunday or any other day that is best for their life.
When we insist that Christians are mandated to keep the Sabbath (Saturday) or Sunday services, we must also realize that this requires our pastors to work. pt. 3
The world's disdain for Christians is enough for us to face. We do not need to be on the receptive end of such treatment fro believers. Exhortation is acceptable, as well as reproof, but sarcastic criticism of others in blanket statements is none of these biblical means of correcting one another in brotherly love mixed with grace and mercy.
While you may have a point about SOME Christians (especially leaders) who take a firm stance concerning tithing, which is not mandated by Paul or the other apostolic writers. These apostles emphasized that giving is voluntary according to the lead of the Holy Spirit. The emphasis on tithing and Sabbath keeping are two items that are not mandated in the writings of the apostles for the church. In the gospels, Jesus was living under the law in order to fulfill it completely for us. It is He who is flawless concerning the Law and the will of God. None of us are so. We are sinners, He is not. So these facts are the reason we are under the Law of Christ, where He has fulfilled all of the Law for us. This does not mean that we are to live without regard to the intent of God's moral commands.
For example, the Law says to not bear false witness against a neighbor (this is in reference to legal matters), but the Spirit of the Law is that we are honest with one another and speak truthfully concerning our neighbor.
The Law says not to commit adultery, but the Spirit of the law is to not think lustfully at all ever, let alone act in a sexually immoral way.
The Law gives very specific instructions that are helpful for us to live together in peace and love, but the Spirit of the Law gives us power to live obediently to the lead of the Holy Spirit in every circumstance. see pt. 2
God Bless :)
Not wanting to get into the topic of whether or not believers are sinners, since I have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. In this way, I did speak that I was a sinner because of what Jema had said about the speech towards you during this thread with you. I was concerned that maybe I had sinned against you in the way she mentioned and repent, apologizing to you and to the members on this site. So, if she can show me any words that Giannis or I used that fit the definition of invective, aggressive, or bullying, I would want to know.
As to our conversation here, it is fine to use strong words to make one's point, especially if one's view is a matter of importance to a person. We do not need to be wishy-washy in order to appease others. We should speak honestly, using as precise of words as we can to explain ourselves in written form. That is not easy for everyone to do. Some people are better at writing out their views than others. Our prowess at writing is not what is important, but using the opportunity afforded in this forum to enter into dialogue with others in order to understand one another as well as relate what each of use knows, perceives, and/or feels led to share.
I appreciate your firmness in your view. I appreciate that you are straight-forward. I appreciate that your love for others shows through in your posts. I appreciate you as a sister in Christ. It is good to have a friend like you on this forum. We do not need to agree on every topic, but we both have the Holy Spirit within us to lead us into harmonious fellowship, knowledge of our Lord, Jesus, and the truths of the Scriptures inspired by our great God who has deemed it best to save us.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
You have just said in prior post that you have never met one believer that has not sinned in some way as a believer. Here's the great problem of those which justifies themselves as keepers of the Sabbath day according to the letter of the Law, for as said James in his universal epistle- James 2:10- , "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all". What more does the Word of GOD say? Romans 2:12 ->... as many as have sinned in the Law shall be Judged by the Law, therefore, he who sins in the Law becomes guilty of all, then by the Law he will be condemned for sure. Galatians 3:11 - ...no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(are wretchad)
Galatians 3:8-10
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that GOD would justify the Gentiles through faith(not by the Law), preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Law to do them.
Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Hebrews 4:
12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom WE MUST RENDER AN ACCOUNT.
This question leads us into another discussion. One that was recently addressed on this forum. I do not wish to revisit this topic of how one is born again, yet still able to sin, thus is a sinner, though covered by the righteousness of Christ.
I can understand how you may have felt overwhelmed.
Just a note: the quote from the epistle of Barnabas is not a false Scripture. It is like the epistle of Clement, who was bishop in Rome soon after Paul died there. A epistle is a simply a letter. We ascribe God-inspiration to the letters of Paul but not to Clement or Barnabas. This is because Paul's letters were widely distributed and accepted as being inspired by God. The letters of Clement and Barnabas (and other bishops and church leaders) were to churches or other Christians and also distributed but not as widely as those of Paul, John., Peter, James, and Jude. So that is why they are not included in the canon of Scripture.
This does not mean that they are not honest letters that describe the Christian experience of that time, though. These writers, like Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Polycarp, Ignatius (both of Antioch) were devout Christians, some of whom were martyred for not renouncing their faith in Jesus.
So please do not be fearful of reading what they say. There writings are preserved for us for a reason. But there are those who wrote letters that were frauds and heretics. So, caution is always warranted and we should always check one's writings against the teachings of Scriptures and also read up on the authors to see if their writings were considered heretical or not.
That is all for now. I hope you have a very blessed day today and gain much peace and wisdom from your study of the Word of God.
I sense that there is a reason for holding to a belief, that these letters by certain eminent men should be treated as spurious. When we have the Deuterocanonical (or, Apocrypha) books that are largely accepted by certain churches (including the RCC), we can easily include the writings of Clement, Polycarp, Eusebius, et al as also falling into that category. And many of these men, especially Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John, were very much involved in the work & growth of the early Church, so their writings have always been a great help to us many centuries later to understand how the Church believed & functioned. Once we can separate these writings (not all the contents of which we might agree with), from the questionable Apocrypha (written many centuries later before & after Christ), we can begin to get to the source of matters such as Sabbath-keeping, etc. But it comes down to the thorny point: what do I want to believe or will support my belief, rather than let the Word speak - and this is something that I constantly assess within myself, lest I too fall into that trap. Hope your discussions with Momsage continue to be engaging & enlightening.
It is always good to hear from you.
I've been reading this afternoon on this topic of non-canonical books. But it is certainly not necesary to do so.
As you said, it is good to find out how the church in the earliest times understood doctrines and practices passed down to the leaders from the apostles.
Perhaps you have misunderstood my point concerning the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter int he caser of the Decalogue is very specific but the spirt of the law encompasses so much more than just the acts spoken of in the Decalogue.
We are to be morally sound in our lives, not just in our outward acts, but inwardly, being transformed by the Holy Spirit to will and do what the Father wants us to do.
My post was not meant to be dismissive concerning moral actions. We are not to kill, commit adultery, etc. according to the Decalogue, but in the teachings of Jesus (Sermon on the Mount) and Paul's words concerning the law, we are to go deeper into what the Lord requires of us-not just outward obedience as the Pharisees did, but inwardly, with pureness of heart and true desire to live godly lives in the evil world we live in daily.
1. The 10 commandments were commands written by God and were for all of mankind to obey until the end. 2. In the 4th COMMANDMENT God only COMMANDED that we "REST" on the seventh day of the week for our physical, mental and spiritual well being. If believers worship and fellowship together on Sunday there is no "sin" or wrong doing in this and if I put forward the idea that I was saying this I apologize. It just seems sensible to do it on the seventh day during our rest. 3. The 10 Commandments are NOT LAWS. All the laws and statues and ordinances that were given to Moses by God were based on these 10 commands of God. The sacrificial rituals were abolished by the beautiful sacrifice of Jesus so they were no more needed but we, as believers, know in our hearts to obey His COMMANDS. Actually, all souls know to obey them because they are a part of the human conscience. Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5: 17-18 We cannot pick and choose what commandments to obey. God intended for them all to be obeyed. 4. In the scriptures, from the KJB, I have given a different understanding of the verses that others claim say that the Early Church started worshipping on the first day of the week after Christ died, understandings which are completely possible within the scriptures and some that showed that the early church continued to honor the Sabbath until "ravening wolves" entered in as Paul warned they would. 5. Following the Commands of God/living under the blood of Jesus as a believer are not 2 separate things. They are all part of being a true believer, but, if others don't do it that way, it is not wrong for them until they are convicted of it and then don't obey. God Bless :)
Thanks for getting back to me. May have a very peaceful and blessed day today!
You mentioned, "we change things from Elohim's original intent or design...". In general, yes we have a tendency to do that, sometimes wilfully to suit our inclinations & desires, & other times, because we try to make them fit into a society & norms in which we live. So my questions: what then was Yahweh's original intent & design for the giving of the Law (the Ten Commandments)? To whom was it given? What was its purpose? And did it have an expiry date? Was there any Law instituted subsequent to it? As you no doubt have read through the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) & the apostolic teaching in the New Testament concerning these matters (especially in Romans, Galatians, & Hebrews), you will learn the answers.
Now why do some Christians hold onto the Ten Commandments as if they still applied to them, I cannot tell for sure; except that maybe they haven't thought through the questions I've shared here & even if they have, it might come down to, 'well it is in the Bible & it is given from the Mouth of God, so we must accept them & apply them even for today'. This answer sounds good, but in all things pertaining to the Bible, we need to be asking ourselves questions about the passages, doctrines, or teachings we read about, so that we not only know the Mind of God & His Purposes in them, but also if and how to apply them to us as His Church today. Blessings.
I especially agree with your comment of, how when we change the things of God they diminish in value. Changing the day of rest, the seventh day of the week, to Sunday has, as I know you are aware, become NO day of rest for the believer or anyone else. This hurts our witness. We cannot pick and choose the commandments to suit ourselves. The early church honored the Sabbath until about 35AD to 100AD. After that time many "ravening wolves" ( Matthew 7:15) had begun to enter in and by 345AD Emperor Constantine held the Laodicean Council and changed the day of rest to the first day of the week to stop persecution of Jews and Christians for worshipping on the Sabbath. There were many people already practicing rest and worship on the first day so He made it a law to stop the persecution. This is a simple account of the history. If you search Laodicean Council you can learn a lot more about it. Just be careful to backup what you read or hear by scripture. Again, welcome and I hope you will join in with this discussion as it goes along. God Bless :)