Bible Discussion Thread

I've read every verse in the NT KJV bible that uses the word rest. I do not understand how any of these verses, standing alone, or used with others, presents an understanding that the rest of Jesus changes the Sabbath to Sunday including the two above. It WAS the Laodicean Council of 324 AD with the support and compliance of the Catholic Church that abolished the sabbath and replaced it with Sunday under penalty of being cursed or excommunicated if not adhered to.



SEE BELOW

"Constantine published the Edict of Milan, granting freedom of religion in the empire and establishing Sunday a day of worship" Collier Encyclopedia, vol 7, p. 212

"It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright,

CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo (Obviously the Catholic Church was present in 364 AD to take part in what the Laodician Council was doing to change the sabbath to Sunday.)

"The Bible says remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic Church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. and low the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church." American Sentinel, Father Enright, 1893 (This quote is from 1893 not what he is saying in his quote.)

Momsage, 2/2

So it is obvious that Constantine issued a Law for all populations and religions in his empire concerning a rest day during the week. He prefered a day that the pagans celebrated the God Sun, the Day of the Sun, which also coincided with the already existing rest day of the christians, the Lord's Day. So there was a common day of rest for all peoples and religions.

Next we will talk Biblically.

And something you must know. In early church books one may encounter the term "catholic". Catholic is a greek word which means universal, and with that meaning it must be understood when reading those writtings. It is about the early united universal church. The early christians called their church as "The One Holy and Catholic(universal) and Apostolic(descending from the Apostles) Church". It had nothing to do with the later established Roman Catholic church who included the term catholic in their title with the purpose to claim that only them were the true universal church. It was just one fraction of the early church. So do not misunderstand the term catholic in those early writtings, it was not about the Papacy.

GBU

Please show biblical proof that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week. The two verses that are usually stated are the only ones I've seen used for this belief but consider a different interpretation; 1 Corinthians 16:2 This verse only states that Paul asked the church members to collect donations on the first day of the week for when he came again. Nothing is said that it was done at church services. Roman 14:5 Does your church only meet on Sunday to fellowship and hear preaching and teaching? This verse is just speaking of believers gathering on A Sunday to fellowship and listen to Paul preach because he had to leave the next day. It doesn't interpret as abolishing their regular worshiping on the Sabbath.

The Holy Catholic Church was involved in changing the sabbath to Sunday, these historical quotes, among others, proves it.

"The PRIMITIVE (my emphasis) Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews before the Christians for a long time together, did keep their convocations upon the Sabbath in which some portions of the law were read and this continued till the time of the Laodician Council." The whole Works of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX p416

"It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright,

CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo (The Holy Catholic Church was involved with Laodicean Council , taking serious steps to put a stop to Christians still worshipping on the sabbath hundred of years after Christ.)

Please use scripture and historical proof for your comments. GOD COMMANDED us to rest and worship Him on one particular day of the week in one particular way. As for me I choose to obey God not man.

God Bless :)

Hello again, Momsage.

No one here is asking you to worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. You are free to use Saturday as your day of worship.

Giannis has given you some historical information that indicates that it was customary in the early decades of the church at the time of the apostles and shortly after to come together on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship.

If one wishes to follow the example of the early church and attend church services on Sunday that is fine. The Scriptures do not tell us what day to meet together for worship.

The Sabbath commandment was for a time of rest from work, not a call to come together to worship. At the time of the giving of the command on Sinai there were no synagogues (these came into being during the Babylonian exile along with rabbis and Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law). It was also in the Babylonian exile that all the Sabbath additions to the original command were instituted. So, in the time of Jesus, going to the synagogue on Saturday was considered the norm as long as one did not have to travel more that these "requirements" allowed. (This restriction on travel was one reason that there were so many synagogues and teachers). The people were only required to go to the temple a few times per year.

I think that in this conversation you have presented your point of view well and others such as Giannis and I have also presented our views well. It may be best to leave it at that and let others consider both views and decide according to their conscience as the Holy Spirit leads them.

I do understand that your are very passionate about this topic. We should be serious about our worship. Since there is not a biblical verse that tells us what day we HAVE to attend worship services, I think that we can worship any and every day of the week, either singularly or corporately, according to the lead of the Holy Spirit.

I love your zeal, Momsage. We all have topics that mean a great deal to us.

Hi GiGi: Yes I am passionate about this topic maybe a little more then I should be but when I see God's church disobeying His commandment it is so sad to me. You are right the commandment doesn't specifically say to worship on the sabbath. I guess to me that is a given because it's the day He sanctified to Himself. I just can't let the idea that the early church, during the Apostolic period 35 to 100 AD, abandoned the 4th commandment right after Jesus' death and started worshiping on Sunday. I do have complete faith in God that His church will be in complete unity when He returns so maybe by us discussing these things it can help us to reach that unity, although it may not look like it now. LOL Thank for replying to me. You always make me feel good. God Bless ;)

Amen, Momsage,

We love each other here on this forum and we learn as we go along in our life in Christ how to discuss differences through the working of the Holy Spirit. I love a good, hearty discussion as much as the next person, and also think that some topics are understood more deeply when serious discussions take place. So, I am thankful for your contribution to this discussion on how e are to view the Sabbath commandment post cross and resurrection.

Have a good day. We have been out and about today looking for things we need to replace now due to the water damage we had from a plumbing leak last week. Glad the insurance company will be covering much of the damage (save our deductible and us being responsible for the pipe repair). This is the first kind of water damage incident we have had to face and also dealing with an insurance claim, although my husband was on the other side of claims as a job being a claims adjuster for his career.

I ask for prayers that everything will go smoothly in all ways.

Hi GiGi: What a mess you must be dealing with. It is a blessing the insurance will cover most of it and your husband is qualified to help with them. My prayers are with for a quick cleanup and settlement of this issue. Thank you for your comment . Seeing a post form you is like having a good friend knock on your door for a cup of coffee and chat, especially with homemade cinnamon rolls. Yum. The only reason I worry about my discussions as being to passionate is that I will offend someone but I hope I haven't. I state my view in a straightforward way so I may come across to abrupt sometimes. You are an uplifting part of this forum. God Bless :)

Thanks for your graciousness, Momsage.

I, too, am pretty straightforward. Some people appreciate this and some do not. We should always aim for harmony and graciousness, as you have to me, but it is true that at times, people can become upset about what someone says in a post. And the response to being upset can take many forms. We just need to be prayerful, humble, and ready to engage when it is helpful to do so and to disengage when it is best to do so. Have a good evening, Momsage. I like the way you describe us sitting down for a chat. Warms my heart.

Hi Momsage. You asked for "biblical proof that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week". The verses already given, I admit, don't specifically show that day to be Sunday. But was wondering, are there any verses that show the the early Church worshiped on the Sabbath? I know that the Apostle Paul frequently went to the synagogue on the Sabbath ( Acts 13:14, Acts 18:4), but clearly that wasn't to celebrate the day with the Church, but to minister to the Jews. I just can't think of an occasion where it stated that the Church met on the Sabbath for worship, in spite of 'Jeremy Taylor' stating that they did (without Scriptural references given).

Genesis 2: 2-3 Exodus 30: 8-11 Mark 2:27-28 Mark 4:16 Acts 13: 14-15, 27, 42-44, Acts 15:21

Acts 16:13, Acts 17:2 Acts 18:4

"Protestants do not realize that by observing Sunday they accept the authority of the Spokesperson, the Pope." ( Our Sunday Visitor February 5, 1950.)

Momsage

Revelation 7:1-4 AND 9-12, says:

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our GOD in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (These sealed 144K of each tribe of Israel are the remnant saved of the condemnation and eternal perdition- Luke 3:7 combined with 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, among countless other biblical references).

On the other hand:

-verses 9-12 combined with Revelation 19:6-10

9 I beheld, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped GOD,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and Glory, and Wisdom, and Thanksgiving, and Honour, and Power, and Might, be unto our GOD for ever and ever. Amen.

Momsage, the question is:

Who are the great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stand before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands? And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Yes, who are them, Momsage?

Hi Oseas. I do want you to know I have ended my discussion with Chris, on the Sabbath,.we have come to an impass. I would, however answer your question after a time of study because I don't see what it has to do with the Sabbath. God Bless :)

Thanks for your reply Momsage. I couldn't detect the Church ever coming together to worship the LORD on the Sabbath from the references you gave. So it seems that neither we nor yourself can scripturally prove that the Church met on either the Sabbath or the Sunday (what is otherwise called the Lord's Day: Revelation 1:10). Therefore, we cannot appeal to the Word to resolve the matter, but to what was understood & practised in the years that followed the closing of the Scriptures. I won't go into that as both Giannis & GiGi have given sufficient evidence from the writings of those post-apostolic Church saints that the Church met together on the Lord's Day (Sunday), well before the Roman Catholic Church came into existence. And if we, as the Church, choose to worship on a Sunday, do so because of what we learn from early Church practise and not from some papal or council edict.

So, the question remains: if this be the case, why did the Church reject the Sabbath (also being the day set aside by the Jews to attend the synagogue), to meet together to break bread & worship the Lord on the first day of the week? Could it be that the Church (founded on apostolic teaching) no longer identified with the Law given by God to Israel, from which no salvation or release from sin's grip could be found, but rather attended to the Law given by the Spirit of God, which now gave both understanding & power to serve God acceptably? Maybe, what the Apostle Paul believed & preached, was also adhered to by the Church: in Romans 7:4-6 Paul stated, 'we are dead to the Law by the Body of Christ - now being delivered from the Law in which we remained dead, but now serve God in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter'. And this was written to remind Jewish believers that they (not Gentiles) were once under the (whole) Law, but now freed from its intended purpose & punishment as its goal, to serve God by the Spirit covered by Christ's Blood, which the Law could never do.

Hi Chris: It seems you and I have come to an impass. I will make one more comment and, of course, you can respond but for me I won't discuss the Sabbath anymore. I appreciate your having this discussion with me but, honestly, I feel it was a bit one-sided. I offered a lot of historical backup for proof of what I believe and scriptures too, but you didn't refute any of it with your own historical quotes or scriptures. You just basically kept repeating what you believe, like calling the commandments of God laws of God which include the other 9 so when Jesus broke us away from God's laws that must include the other 9. GiGi did help me understand the commandment doesn't say anything about the day to worship. To me that was just a given; to give God our full attention by fellowshipping with believers and focusing on the word of God on the same day we rested. That can be done on any day but the important part of the commandment is to cease from labor on Saturday (any day in your opinion) which the church no longer honors with the excuse God changed His mind and used His Son to abolish the 4th commandment for some reason.

God Bless :)

Thanks Momsage. I respect that you don't wish to continue this discussion on the Sabbath Day; though I don't see that we have reached an impasse, rather we are drawing closer to understanding each other, using Scripture & Church practise as our rule, as we eliminate spurious references to Sabbath Day or Sunday worship.

You wrote in another post that you provided much evidence to support the belief that the Church maintained its 'Sabbath Day worship' position. I may have missed it, as I only remember you quoted Constantine, the Laodicean Council, an RC Priest Enright, Jeremy Taylor, & maybe others. Yet, verifiable references were given you of men/writings such as Justin the Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, the Didache (apostolic teachings), Clement of Alexandria, and others, who referred to Christians meeting on a Sunday rather than the Sabbath - all these were men who preceded the men/council you referred to. It is true that Sunday worship was ordered & ratified much later by those of the RC persuasion, but the point in this discussion is, where does the truth lie & does an RC edict cause all believers to blindly follow it? I would think that a lot more weight needs to be given to the testimony of those men (post-apostolic) & if not, then the reason(s) for their disallowance needs to be given.

And lastly, the Ten Commandments are a single unit of obedience & requirements for Israel, not given to Gentiles nor the Church. The breaking of even one of them meant judgement - for the Law could never give life ( Galatians 3:19-21). How many in the Church have converted that Law given only to Israel to now apply to the Church as well, still mystifies me (as I read how the Law, though holy & good, has now been abrogated through Christ's death). The point that should be discussed is the relationship of that old Law to the Law given us (applied to our hearts) by the Spirit, & why some choose to fuse the two together when it cannot be done. See Hebrews 7:12,18,19. GBU.

Hey Chris: Actually I'm glad you responded and I was wrong about being at an impass. We ARE growing closer in understanding each other and I'd like to continue. I'll respond more fully in a bit. God Bless :)

Hello Momsage, 1/2

Lets talk historically, not Biblically

On the 7th of March 321 AD, Constantine ordered Roman citizens to honor the "Day of the Sun", so it became an official holiday and a rest day. But only for those who lived in the city. Those in the countryside were excluded from it.

His first Sunday Law states, "All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish".

As it can be seen from the above Constantine's Law had nothing to do with christians or Jews, they are not mentioned in his Sunday Law's (there were two of them). His Laws concerned all people, pagans and christians. Also it can be seen that the rest day of Sunday has nothing to do with Sabbath as it was allowed for farmers to work in the fields, something forbidden during the Sabbath, so it is obvious that Sunday was not a substitute for Sabbath.

At that time Constantine held the title of Pontifex Maximus, the highest title of a priest in the Roman pagan religion. Also at that time christians called Sunday as Lord's Day (the greeks still do). From the references I gave you in my post yesterday it can be seen that for Christians the Lord's Day was already a holiday for about 250 years before Constantine's Sunday Laws.

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Hi Giannis. As I just told Chris this discussion has come to an impass. I believe my problem is I like "debating" to tell what I believe with historical and scriptural proof with the responding debater using the same methods to refute what l just presented tat for tat bascially. But this is not what my discussion with Chris has been. I was debating he was discussion; apples and oranges. But he was doing what this forum calls for so I'm at fault. So I will not reply to discussions on the Sabbath anymore as it is getting us nowhere. I'll try in further posting on this forum to stick to discussions. God Bless :)

Hello Momsage

Well I do feel that I owe to present my opinion scripturally. I have done it historically so far. About debating, it is true that we all like debating sometimes in order to "push" our beliefs to others and we all occasionally get passionate. So don't worry. Also do not feel obliged to respond.

But not today, I have no free time. Probably tomorrow. Have a blessed day. GBU

Hello Giannis. Hope you're busy day went well. I am sorry if in my discussions you felt like I was debating because I wanted to "push my beliefs on others " because that certainly wasn't my intent. I have decided to continue the discussion with Chris if he wants too. God bless :)