I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)
Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.
So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.
Brother Giannis. I note that your question is directed to those holding a non-trinitarian position, but thought to clarify that these folk would willingly accept that at the miraculous birth of Jesus, His impeccable & sinless life, & His Father's acceptance of Him & ascension to His right Hand, Jesus gained a complete Divine character & position with the Father. Therefore, regarding Jesus' Presence & Ministry among us by His Spirit denotes His present divinity, assuming all of God's Nature within Him. And this understanding I feel can be accepted by all of us: that of Christ being Divine & sending forth His Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God to accomplish His Will.
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
"It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation."
Very good point here Brother Christ.
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 20:28.
This love was displayed to us while we were yet sinners.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.
I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.
Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.
Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU
Oh thank you Ronald ! Once again you have explained my thoughts and put them on here :) , are you a mind reader ? No , you're not , you are a Bible reader :) :) :) .
Hi Giannis , I'm not one for big debates so I would like to keep this brief if that's ok :) . I do not ever pray to Jesus or anyone other than God , my Heavenly Father , the Holy One of Israel . I pray to Him through Jesus Christ my Sinless High Priest who is now in Heaven . As for your question about how Jesus can be in the midst of Christians all over the world , I personally believe that 1st Corinthians Ch 15 can answer that for you . I hope that I've answered your questions satisfactorily , I will let Paul explain it , he's better at that sort of thing than I am :) .
I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)
Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.
So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.
Expecting for your opinion.
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
Very good point here Brother Christ.
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 20:28.
This love was displayed to us while we were yet sinners.
God bless
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for your reply to my comment.
I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.
I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.
Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.
Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?