Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Page 2.

'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.

'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.

Chris, Ronald, 2/2

Now lets go to that "first born from the dead". Interpretation. The first child that God got back from the dead. The rest is us, His other born again children which He took us back from death. But why does Paul say "firstborn" and not just "first"?

Rom 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Firstborn among many brethren. Jesus is the first born(again) among us, first born(again) among us from the dead, so that ""that in all things he might have the preeminence"

About the word "arche". It means begining but in grk (mod and anc) it also means "principality". ie verse 16, " whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities(archai or archae, plural), or powers:". i.e the state is a principality, the police is a principality in grk

So lets go to Rev 3:14, "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning(arche) of the creation of God"

It may mean the first among creation(us, born again) but the most probable is that it means He who is over (or who has authority )the whole creation or He who created the creation. Taking into account Col 1:16 and Eph 3:9, it certainly means He who created and has authority over the whole creation.

Also why does Paul call Jesus the image of the invisible God? If the answer is that we are all images of God, then why Paul points that out about Jesus as if though it is something exceptional? And why he says "invisible"? Because Jesus is God's visible image

As far as the triune God is concerned we also may look to verses where the Spirit of God is described as a person with will, feelings, etc, thus showing that apart from Father there is at least one more person included in the divinity.Well I wouldn't like to intervene any more, I just tried to show to you various interpretations of those verses.

Hope I haven't confused you.

Sorry brother Giannis for placing my comment to your old comment here, as I was unable to get a Reply button on your recent one on Colossians 1:16-20.

So thanks for explaining this difficulty in knowing what Paul was actually trying to convey. People living at that time could of course come back to Paul & ask him to be more specific in his meaning - we can't, but we do have all the Scriptures to help us know what he was conveying to us, believing that he (& the other writers) did not report conflicting teaching. Knowing that all Scriptures support each other perfectly so it can only be our misunderstandings that creates difficulties for us when bringing them together.

And so when we get back to Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature", & in line with the following verses about the work of creating done 'through'Him/'by' Him, then clearly the firstborn of all creation (i.e. that Jesus was also a created Being) cannot also be the One 'through' Whom God created all things. One could ask, 'why couldn't God Himself create all things rather than creating a 'firstborn' through Whom Creation came into being?' I understand that you or your congregation understand 'firstborn' as the first to led others into the New Birth, though when I see 'pases', it seems that it refers to 'all, the whole, every kind of', & not specifically to those to be In Christ. Anyway, thanks again for the explanation.

Chris

You said '(i.e. that Jesus was also a created Being) cannot also be the One 'through' Whom God created all things".

Based in your words the King James Version should or must change what is written in Hebrews 1:1-3, as follow:

1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us BY HIS SON, whom GOD hath appointed heir of all things, by WHOM also He -GOD- made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of GOD's Glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD's Person-the Word is GOD-, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power(Matt.28:18), when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Chris, see,

based in the everlasting Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, YOUR TESTIMONY of my Lord JESUS is false, it is fake.

Be careful, because even my Lord JESUS left very clear saying that "out of the heart proceed false witness, and blasphemies, evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts:

Be careful or else get ready

I believe Oseas, that you have misunderstood what I wrote. If you have been following this thread, then you would know with all certainty, that what I've shared & believe is that Jesus was NOT a 'created Being'.

What I was referring to in that comment, was that Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation", Who is believed by some to be as the 'first in line of created beings', He then cannot be the One through Whom God created all things (because the Creator cannot also be the created). I realise that my comment can be confusing or misconstrued, but to those folk (Giannis, Ronald, & others following this), will understand what I believe & what I meant to convey. Hope that puts your mind at rest.

Chris

Thank you for your explanation. For me what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD. As is written, the witness of GOD is greater: this is the witness of GOD which He hath testified of His Son. Hebrews 1:8 - Unto the Son GOD saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy kingdom.

Thanks Giannis for sharing in this. I can agree to Romans 8:29, " that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"; that clearly 'prototokos' here refers to Christ being our 'Forerunner' leading those who are saved by His Blood, into the new Birth He has provided for us; i.e. we follow Jesus, Who is the Firstborn among us.

Yet, with Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature" (or, creation), doesn't seem to imply that believers are the object; though you (or, your Church) feels it does: "that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)". It's interesting that 'creation' is used here, which doesn't seem to easily bring Christ's Church into its meaning.

That was interesting about the usage of 'arche', that it could be applied to rulers, principalities, etc. I checked your reference Revelation 3:14, and though the application of 'arche' is defined as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause", your other references ( Colossians 1:16 & Ephesians 3:10) certainly apply to 'principalities/rulers'. And other references are given in support of this: Luke 12:11, Titus 3:1, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:10, & others. So thank you for giving us more to consider in this matter.

Chris,

Part 3

I hope even though you may not agree, you can make sense of my replies. I would like to tell you I do not Have anything in common with JW or their translation of the bible.

My understanding we are mortal beings and no part of us is immortal. I see the spirit as our breath/life that goes back to God when we die, Ecclesiastes 11:7 and Scripture tell us the soul can die, Ezekiel 18:4 Matthew 10:28 Hebrew 9:27. Like Paul said of David being dead in the tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:34. We do not put on immortality until the resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.

Bear with me my Greek is kindergarten level, arche the beginning or origin I see it maybe a little differently I understand God the Father as the Creator as in Genesis 1:1 and Psalm 19:1. I believe in the plan of God Jesus was first and as in Romans 4:17 Jesus was in Gods eyes in the womb of Mary and then the angels and all the counsel of heaven then the earth and all that was to be.

In Genesis 17:5 when God renamed Abram to Abraham God said, "for the father of many nations I have made thee". It was not Abraham will become a father of many nations it was already done in the plan of God.

"Firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead" Jesus was the firstborn, Jesus being the first in God's plan would make Him the firstborn, and Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. There were people brought back from the dead like in 2 Kings 13:21 the guy was thrown into Elisha's tomb and when his body touched Elisha's bone he came back to life and stood up, and we see the ones in the New Testament. No one who died before Jesus who came back to life died again Jesus was the first to overcome death.

Jesus is the firstborn of the dead because He had no sin and death could not hold Him and when Jesus rose He rose in a glorified body never to die again, Revelation 1:18. That is what we look forward to when we are resurrected.

See part 4 sorry I am slow.

Page 3.

Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.

"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.

Page 4.

So Who is this Jesus? A creation from Mary's womb, another deity in Heaven alongside God, or from the Person of the One God Who was the Expression of God's Love through His Life & His Death. I believe that God sent forth that part of Himself, as He does with His Spirit, to become man "for the suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:9). And now Jesus receives the worship as only God must receive ( Revelation 5:11-14), when prior to His incarnation, all Glory was His within the Person of the One God ( John 17:5).

Sorry for this long post - you had posed many good questions, which I'm unsure that fully dealt with your expectations. Blessings.

Hi Chris,

Part 4

I will make this the last and probably short.

John 1:1 I see John's prolog as the beginning of Jesus ministry, not the Genesis creation, we see this in 1 John 1:1-3 seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers. John says they heard, they saw, they touched this Word of life. and this word was manifested, Jesus being the tabernacle of God with us on earth.

I will stop for now and study over what you have posted. I do thank you Chris so much for the time and effort you put in this, and I will go over it.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

I have followed you and others on this great discussion!

Thanks for giving your understanding.

You stated the "beginning" in John 1:1-10 refers to Christ earthly ministry.

I believe we should ask ourselves "What was Christ role in those 3 years?

We know that Jesus's death brought in the new covenant that was Prophesied to come in the OT, ( Jeremiah 31:31) "also other verses". but what was his ministry or Role during those 3 years?

During Jesus 3-year ministry he sought out the ( lost sheep of Israel ).

John is identifying Jesus as "the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And as the "true Light, which lighteth (every man) that cometh into the world". Here John is not talking about Jesus earthly ministry, the lost sheep of Israel or his role.

JESUS ROLE AND THE ENDING OF THE OLD COVENANT IS ANOTHER TOPIC, BUT I BELIEVE THE 3 YEAR MINISTRY WAS ENDING THE OLD COVENANT AND HIS DEATH WAS THE BEGINING OF THE NEW COVENANT.

Jesus as savior was announced in Genesis 3:15.

In John 5:39 Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jesus's ministry as savior was performed in the Old Testament in types, JOHN IS NOT ADDRESSING THE BEGINNING OF NEITHER OF THOSE.

I would like to highlight something in John 1:1-10.

We see Jesus as the word, as God, as life, as light and as the "creator in verse 10",

Jesus is called the light, and that light didn't begin at Christ earthly ministry according to verse 9

This light is also mentioned in 1 John 1:1-7. God is also referenced as that light!

We see the Trinity in the light as the Father and the light as the Son as the same in these passages.

You have the father the son and the Holy Spirit exhibited in John 1:1-10 and 1 John 1:1-7.

God bless.

Hey S Spencer,

Thank you for your reply, yes, Genesis 3:15 tells us He will come by the seed of a woman, and that is exactly what we see happen in Mary. My understanding of John 1:1-5 is John's prolog at the start of his gospel like Genesis 1:1 is a prolog to the rest of Genesis 1. John starts with, In the beginning.

I see this beginning as the coming of the Messiah/Christ the beginning of Jesus's ministry because in John 1:6, John goes to John the Baptist as the witness of the one who was to come, the Light that darkness did not comprehend. This is the start of Jesus's ministry when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit and God made Him the Messiah/Christ, Acts 2:36.

Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, His role or ministry was to fulfill the law and the prophets in confirming the new covenant by His death and resurrection from the dead to pay the price for our sins. Daniel 9:27 is also about the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry but that is another topic. Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied to come in Daniel. As I have discussed with Chris my understanding is Jesus was the beginning of the plan of God and like John 1:10 it is through Him not by Him.

Jesus, God' Son is first in God's plan of creation, and everything was created in and through Him and Jesus was begotten in the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Colossians 1:20. I know you may also not agree with that but that is how I understand, it is God the Father who is the creator.

The light was the word of God that dwelt in Jesus, the glory of the Father that dwelt in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 4:6.

God bless,

RLW

Thanks Ronald.

On John 1:1-10.

I read your views on this when I got in from work late Friday night.

I had to do some catching up as I fell behind on my following.

I believe Chris and Giannis covered much on this topic far better than I would be able to.

What I did notice is there is some disparity in the usage of the Greek between you and them that is vital to understanding the truth in which you search.

However, I was just wanted to add something, if it haven't already been touched on.

Just to clear up my sloppy reply last night I was trying to not only showcase the Trinity in presented in the Gospel of John and 1 John 1. but to highlight words in the text that "describes" a being rather than focusing on "In the beginning"

I am 100 percent sure that John is not talking about Christ ministry as the beginning here.

However, if I gave you that it still doesn't settle the fact that the scripture doesn't only say "and the Word was with God," It says "AND THE WORD WAS GOD".

Verse 2 describes a time and location.

The same was IN THE BEGINNING "WITH GOD".

There is also verse 4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

When we are born again we become one with Christ by the Spirit.

This is a everlasting Spirit! The "Spirit of God"

We have a birth date.

The Spirit of God does not.

The Spirit of God is life and Christ was sent from God to give us life and make us sons of God!

Our bodies are hardware. Our life is software. Christ proceeded from the Father and took on a body/hardware and filled it with a preexisting Spirit that has NO beginning.

We have been quickened by a life giving Spirit that has NO beginning.

It seems in your replies you are focusing on verses that presents Jesus Humanity.

God bless

Hey S Spencer,

Thanks again, I feel I am among the minority on this and I am grateful that people on this site are willing to discuss it. As I said to Chris "in the beginning" what John is referring to makes a big difference in understanding. If it is the Genesis creation or if it is the beginning of Jesus's ministry when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. I agree with you the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit is eternal. God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and has always been.

If we look at 1 John 1:1 this is clearly the beginning of Jesus ministry, John says they have heard, they have seen with their eyes, they saw and touch Him with their hands, this is clearly not the Genesis creation beginning but Jesus's ministry. To me 1 John 1:1 does not show a trinity.

The word of God that is applied to Jesus is only once in the Bible and it was in Revelation 19:3 it was his name was called; Jesus was the word of God in the flesh God was manifested in Jesus but that does not mean Jesus preexisted His birth. I am still praying and studying for the truth, I to once believed Jesus preexisted but to many Scriptures do not agree.

Like Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Why are they two different things here?

Thanks again.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.

And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.

However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.

Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.

it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.

Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?

Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.

I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.

Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.

Page 1.

Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.

Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."

Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?

You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?

To Page 2.

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your reply, it maybe later tonight before I can reply I know we're hours apart.

God bless,

RLW

Page 2. Ronald

True, we may not conclusively know the Form He took in Heaven, whether as the Word within God's Person (just as the Spirit in God was sent out), or as another Form outside of God yet closely connected to Him. The issue here is, whether Jesus existed (in some Form) prior to His appearing on Earth. If not, what do we do with such verses as given here? Can we really reinterpret them in any other way? Is that even possible? And we could add Micah 5:2 (a coming Ruler not going forth from Bethlehem, but from eternity), John 3:13 (Who was in Heaven, coming down from Heaven), John 6:38 (come from Heaven), John 8:56-58 (Jesus existed even before Abraham), Philippians 2:5-11 (His equality with God, but laid it aside to come & serve man), & Hebrews 1:1-3 (through Jesus God made the worlds).

I've understood your comments on Jesus' Life & Death as per His earthly sojourn. But unless we can understand Who this Jesus really is (i.e. whether a Creation of God to fulfil His Plans on Earth, or God Himself, He Who was from the beginning), then the substance of this Mystery can never be resolved. That is why textual examination is so important, especially when we can see other Scriptures that confirm our understanding. I apologize for not referring to your other comments (e.g. the soul/spirit, firstborn, etc), but wanted to keep this short & focus on Jesus before His appearance on Earth. GBU.

Page 3. Ronald.

So when I read those references you gave from Matthew & John, I see Jesus in His Incarnation/in His Flesh, having laid aside His Glory, taking on the form of a Servant, & being obedient to the Father, going to His Death for us. Jesus had to receive all this & the Power & Wisdom of His Father, for He was made a Human, having had to relinquish the Glory He enjoyed within God.

Why then did Jesus have to receive all this - why couldn't He, if He came from within the Person of God, already be endued with what He once had? I cannot say for sure, except to wonder, would He then even be able to take on human flesh clothed in that Glory? Something(s) had to be laid aside so He could be fully Human & people could perceive Him as such, & not as an angel or visitor from another planet. Yet, the people needed to see God at Work in this Man before them, by His Words, His Life, & His Work. And after He declared the Work 'finished', this Jesus as a Man was received back into Heaven, to the acceptance of the Father & received the worship of the heavenly beings, which only God could receive. Could Jesus now be a second God, or rather a vital part of the One God, continually reflecting the Will & Work of the Father in securing many children to enter Glory. Blessings.

Hi Chris,

Part one

I thank you so much for discussing this and thank you Giannis. I am not the best at explaining my understanding.

I know John 1:1 we see it differently but what beginning makes the difference, it was the word of God in Jesus as Jesus never said it was His words but the Father's words, and God was manifested in Jesus John 1:14 2 Corinthians 5:19. In Colossians as well as Ephesians that is similar My understanding Paul is talking about the risen Christ as faith in Christ, redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, the risen Jesus.

I read what you replied to Momsage on this and I hope you are not considering me in the Gnostic camp. My understanding comes totally from Scripture and the Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture, it was hundreds of years after the deaths of the apostles, as in Matthew 28:19 is taken as the Trinity and many churches abide by this today, but nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, what we see is only in the name of Jesus?

I know you will not agree but to say Jesus is God this verse stands out to me 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

See part 2

Chris,

Part 2

God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.

I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32

Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5

Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3

These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12

What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,

These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.

God bless,

RLW

Page 1.

Again, thanks Ronald for your comments here. Re: whether I consider you "a Gnostic", in relation to what you believe, there is no way to sugar-coat what clearly appears to be your belief. Even as someone here, a little while ago, labeled me a 'Pharisee', referring to the fact that I tenaciously stuck to God's literal Word & wouldn't bend to his spiritualizing the Scriptures. Of course, I took that label on the chin, & considered whether I was indeed in error or not, & moved on continuing to refute such belief & standing on God's Word as given & intended to be understood. Likewise, my hope is that, in your firm belief, you will not allow a label, correctly or incorrectly applied, to affect you, rather that these discussions are occurring now to air our beliefs & why we believe them (according to the Scriptures). You are a dear gracious brother in Christ, & I know that no two Christians will align perfectly in every teaching (unless belonging to a cult subject to indoctrination), but hopefully can make some headway in our understanding of the Word. Even Giannis has shared his knowledge of Greek & how the Greek mind understands what is given, so here again we can choose to accept or reject his offerings.

In regard to the many good Scriptures you gave on Jesus' words to the people, or even apostolic distinction between the Father & the Son, I cannot disagree, as to me these verses show the Son's position on Earth with the Father, His subjection, His glorifying of Him, & even His receiving His Word to give to the people as factual. These verses to me speak of His Humanity, of which Philippians 2:6-8 gives us the reason for His subservience to the Father & the laying aside of certain 'traits' to become a Man. So the Scriptures you shared are agreed with, but the question still before us is, 'was Jesus, prior to His Coming to Earth as a babe, only a thought & a plan in the Mind of God, or did He actually exist in a Form with/in God?' To Page 2.

Hey Chris,

I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:47 1 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5

Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.

Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.

Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.

1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10

Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.

Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.

God bless,

RLW

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Apologies Ronald, I had to attach this Page 3 onto Page 1, as there was no Reply button on Page 2.

We can believe that Jesus is spoken of as that Light (by the text clearly given), but John goes back to the Word of vv 1-3; and that Word of God was made fleshJohn baring witness of Him. Bringing all this together, I can see that the Word of God was in Jesus (as it should be), but the clear word is more than that: the Word of God was Jesus. We know that Jesus, as the Word of God, was instrumental in the creation of the worlds & all things ( Colossians 1:15,16) and He is before all His creative Work & He holds them all together ( Hebrews 1:3). Given what we read in these verses, one would have to re-word the verses to make them mean anything else than the Word of God becoming flesh - or else, none of it makes any sense & would be rejected as meaningless. You've written about 'Jesus receiving God's Word at His Ministry', but how would you explain the following verses in John 1 that show God's Word, not just indwelling the Man Jesus, but becoming the Man ("God manifest in the flesh": 1 Timothy 3:16)? Blessings.

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Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.

You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.

The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.

Hi Chris,

Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.

One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9 Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.

Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18 John 3:35 John 5:26-27 John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.

I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.

God bless,

RLW

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Once again Ronald, thank you for your responses & don't feel pressured to respond for lack of time or opportunity - I too have to deal with some daily mundane tasks that rob me from giving more time here on these pages.

Re: John 1:1. The 'beginning' that John refers to here, is in my understanding, of eternity past where time is irrelevant. If the rest of this passage was not given, I could suppose that 'beginning' might apply to whatever one deems as a best fit. But the following words qualify that 'eternity' is spoken of: this Word was both God & with God (Who of course resides in eternity). The subject here is the Word, & this Word (from God & John already understands this Word to apply to Jesus he is now witness to) was instrumental in creation, holder of Life, which is to be the "Light of men". If no more was written, then we could still apply the 'Word' to the Mind of God & His utterances, & to no one or anything else. But John clarifies that this 'Word was made Flesh & dwelt among us". So, with all this detail, I can only believe that God's Word was in eternity as God is, & from that Word within God, the worlds were created; & then at the right time, God took His Word & brought forth One that would reflect Him in the flesh & perform His Will for mankind.

Re: Colossians 1:15-18. "Firstborn", as stated in another post, I understand the word to apply to the rank, pro-eminence, & privileges that rightly come to a firstborn child and not to Jesus being the firstborn (or beginning of creation). I don't see this reference here applying to a 'new creation/re-birth' or any position within all of God's Creation, simply because the whole passage shows this firstborn being the Creator of all things, for Himself, & He holds them all together. If this is not so, then God created a Creator to create these things, which then places John 1:1-14 into question where God's Word was already a characteristic of God & not received at a later time. To Page 2.

Page 2. Ronald.

Re: Colossians 1:16. 'en auto'. In my Lexicon, I do read it as you do, that 'in Him' (en auto) is given. Though looking at 'en', other prepositions are also provided, viz. on, at, by, with. Without getting too deep into something I'm unqualified in (leave that with Giannis or Jesse), the explanation given for using 'en' for this verse is, "of that in which other things are contained and upheld, as their cause and origin: i.e., in God. In God is found the cause why we live, Acts 17:28; in Christ, as the divine hypostatic, in him resides the cause why all things were originally created, Colossians 1:16 (the cause both instrumental and final as well)." Very wordy for sure, but the way I read it, is that if we see Colossians 1:16 as "For (in) him (Jesus) were all things created", then 'in Jesus (the Divine Hypostatic = the underlying reality or substance), God has allowed all created things to find its origin & cause'. Then could it be understood that if Jesus was the origin & cause of creation, would the KJB be wrong by its translation, "For (by) him were all things created"?

And finally, Hebrews 1:3,4. I can agree with you in part: that He was "made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Clearly, this comparison of Jesus to the angelic host was as a result of His Coming & completed Work of Salvation - and of course rising into Glory & seated at the Father's right Hand. And so the Angels of God worship Him (v6). So, now to the word 'made'. You wrote, "He was made, means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do." Again, we appeal to the Greek (& to our brethren here), the word here is 'genomenos' (having become/come into being/happen). Could our KJB have used a word ('made') that does not correctly reflect the original? Loosely, 'made' or 'becoming' can be similar in usage, if made is not meant as 'created' but as 'changed in position/rank'. Onto Page 3.

Hello Chris, Ronald

Col 1:16, "For BY HIM were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY HIM, and for him:"

The grk for that "by him" is "en auto". The precise meaning of that is "in him". But here it takes the meaning "by him". That is why at the end of the verse Paul repeats :... created BY HIM (in grk di'autou), ..." The right translation of "di'autou" is "through him". So Paul uses both "in Him" and "through Him" for the same thing. He actually means "by Him"

Also see verse 14, "IN WHOM (in grk en o) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:".

Why does Paul say "in whom" and not "by whom" or "from whom" or "through whom?"

See verse 20, "And, having made peace THROUGH(dia) the blood of his cross, BY HIM(di'autou) to reconcile all things unto himself; BY HIM(di'autou), I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven". As before in both cases the right translation is "through Him"

So again although Paul talks about the same thing, in verse 14 he says "in whom" and in verse 20 he says "through Him", in both verses meaning "by Him"

Probably when Paul is using the phrase "in Him", he means that everything takes place "in Jesus", which means that everything initiates and finishes inside Him who is the Alpha and the Omega, the Begining and the End of everything. Paul is actually very hard to understand sometimes, even by people of his time. GBU

Hey S Spencer,

Thank you brother, you do not know what you said means to me.

God bless you,

RLW