Bible Discussion Thread

A look at the Pre Trib rapture and the madness to come

Revelation 5:12 describes those in heaven praising God but we also see evidence that ALL those on earth will also do the same; even those who are under the earth (possibly the dead souls in hades). I have said before that if the rapture is hidden the RESURRECTION of the dead saints from graves all over the world surely WON'T be able to remain hidden.

There are several themes in scripture that this reminds us of. First the state of all the angels praising God as seen in Job 38:7.

Lucifer fell AFTER this event; how quickly it is unknown but it may have seemed to be a shock to the 2/3 that remained faithful to their state of holiness to see 1/3 fall away with him ( Revelation 12:4 shows the end result). Of course the fall of man brought sudden issues as well. It didn't take long for the first murder to occur with Adam's firstborn son. And we could see shades of the same thing at the tower of Babel shortly after the flood.

What man will crave will be brought about; no doubt by Antichrist's delusion of peace at the first seal ( Rev. 6:1-2). This is going to appear to be a great light of hope (see 2 Cor. 11:14). Shades of the peace and security now will come to the climax with the Daniel 9:27 covenant being CONFIRMED or an original one made stronger (likely what is now known as the Abraham accords).

Whatever illusion of peace that comes will be short lived as the inevitable decay of society will result in the rest of the seal judgments of war; famine and pestilence to kill 1/4 of men (which appears to all occur BEFORE the mark of the Beast).

Those who end up following Antichrist will also worship the dragon (Satan) as seen in Rev. 13:14-18 who gives power to the Beast. They eventually end up fighting God as we see from Psalm 2 and Revelation 19.

Many have argued that out of fear men will be somehow tricked or coerced to take the mark. Revelation 13:8 seems to argue against this as WORSHIP occurs.

Hi Richard, Your posting about the angels that fell and the reaction of those who did not made me think this:

Did God make all angels able to fall, but elected those who He would preserve from falling by grace, in a similar way that He elects to saves us from sin by grace, but not all are elected? And those who fell, did He not elect them to remain holy and true to Him in order to accomplish His plan for creation (which includes the angels and heavenly hosts) which was decided before any creation had occurred?

How much the angels know about the plan of God concerning the historical outcome of creation and about God's eternal plan is a query I think about. I tend to think that they know much more than we do, and the holy angels must have praised the Lord that He preserved them from falling, trusting in what they knew about God's eternal plan. We do not know how much God has shared with the holy angels. We know a lot of the entire sequence of history up to now and what has been prophesied to yet occur because God chose to have His Words be written as Scripture for us. But did He also give information to the angels about how thing will go because they are also creatures of time as we are. Hmmm.

Just some thoughts that came up when I read your post.

Addendum

The 2000 character "curse" cut off my thought; there is a book of all living it seems; and the book of life and a remnant of those are in Malachi's mention of a "book of remembrance".

I wanted to ask you to pray for wisdom and suggestions as I feel an overwhelming burden to share some deep stuff about the mark of the beast but don't know if this forum is the best place. I will put it in the prayer section in more detail.

Glad to hear of your test being good. The Lord has you helping a lot of people so at least I can say with some confidence that is one reason you aren't out of commission completely. I am very bad at serving; maybe that's why He has me living to help at home and working serving students in a cafeteria. Being an only child I suppose is part of the reason and makes me introspective.

As to the subject of the discussion we of course are sad for those who don't know the truth. I don't know how really to balance the overwhelming emotions that crop up on that with the ultimate reality of Isaiah 66 where those tormented in hell are an abhorrance to everyone else. It makes me think anyway of my half hearted efforts in evangelism; and that is magnified by the sermons in church on 1 Peter and related scriptures on sufferings and persecution we should joyfully endure. Our Pastor talked about the famous "flea" story of Corrie Ten Boom but also about how someone about to die wrote something about asking God to remember the good fruit that happened under the oppressors; and of course that may have been part of what she thought about when forgiving one of the prison guards years later. This sorta relates to what I said in the last post; Jesus asked the Father to forgive them as they know not what they are doing at the crucifixion. In the case of Lucifer as you said they knew enough about what they were doing. I wanted to say that the functions of the angels remained distinct and unique but the fallen can't reflect God just themselves.

1 Timothy 5:21 seems to answer that question regarding the "elect angels". I don't believe any elect beings can ultimately fall; but in the case of the angels they saw heaven and were present when the worlds were created as the verses in Job indicate when all the sons of glory shouted for joy. This begs the question of course did God foresee all those who would fall and call the remaining the elect; or were they predestined to go that way? I would say both as God certainly is unlimited. Seeing everything as the angels did there could be no further remedy unlike mortal man who has never seen God or only what they learned starting in Eden. Seeing heaven as Lucifer did and more importantly the proper praise of God's holiness in the beginning also would have made it clear what worshiping a created being would imply. This is similar to the logic I apply to the Tribulation at least from the sixth seal on there is no more need to tell anyone that Christ is Lord as they will hide from the face of God and Christ at His right hand ( Revelation 6:16 imperfectly translated by me).

Clearly of course God's predestined plan from before the foundation of the world for our salvation (I'll let you find the verse) shows that God knew what was going to occur. This doesn't give us a pleasant feeling; and we should be reminded the dirge said related to Lucifer's fall in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Once the angels saw all these things there was no need for validation of who God was; and there was also no further remedy-they were forever to be out of the favor of God with the ultimate destiny of hell (which was created for the Devil and his angels).

This should be a sobering reminder to man that there is a point beyond redemption once we have tasted heavenly things as Hebrews and literally hundreds of other scriptures point out in warnings of reprobate individuals and those who at first glance appear to be saved who fall away. There is a book of all living and of life.