To Brother Ronald Whittemore & others. I'm unable to respond to Ronald's last response to me, as the Reply button is missing (probably purposely done to limit the comments in that thread). So this one comes as a new Thread to address those matters.
Page 1.
Thanks again Ronald, and I note that you would like a recess on this discussion. But if I might briefly address the Scriptures you shared & why I believe that they don't answer the question, 'was Jesus' first appearance only from the womb of Mary, or did He exist in another Form within the Person of God?'
To your references:
1 Corinthians 15:47: "the second man is the Lord from Heaven" (not a Man Who became Lord, Who went into Heaven & then returned to Earth as Lord from Heaven - but the Lord Who was in Heaven & came to Earth, unlike the first man, Adam, Who was created from the Earth & back to the Earth he went).
1 Timothy 2:5: yes, Jesus is the Mediator now between God & mankind after His ascension.
Matthew 1:20, Acts 17:31, Revelation 12:5: yes again, all point to Jesus as a Man/Babe Who came from God - but no direct reference to any previous existence.
Hebrews 1:5: indeed, Jesus became the Son of God by virtue of this miraculous Birth, but then God would have created another god, because 'all the angels of God are to worship Him'; & none can receive worship but God alone. You asked, "How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father?" Because God took His Word & gave Flesh to that Word, and this Flesh was brought into the World by the Work of God, which made this One called Jesus, God's Son. Jesus only became the Son of God at the Incarnation.
Hebrews 2:7: Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" by virtue of His Humanity. It seems there is an order of created beings before God: the angels being above humanity, of which Jesus was made, thus subjecting Him to being our equal.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
As I said I am not the best in explaining my understanding and I will try, I feel you deserve it, for you have been gracious to even discuss this with me.
1 Corinthians 15:47 This is after Jesus was raised from the dead and Paul is saying our Lord. First the earthy the first Adam then the spiritual the last Adam Jesus who did come from heaven when Jesus, God's Son was conceived in Mary's womb.
We see in Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Jesus defeated death because He was without sin the firstborn from the dead the only man who lived a perfect life. After He was baptized and anointed God gave Him authority John 5:26-27.
Matthew 1:20Acts 17:31Rev. 12:5 My understanding is the preexistence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created. A man caused sin to enter mankind and it had to be a man to live a perfect life to fulfill and make void the law, God could not do that.
Hebrews 1:5 Jesus is not a God there is only one true God, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. a man who is God's Son conceived in Mary, who God raised in a glorified body and placed Him on His right side on His throne above all that is in heaven and earth and under the earth.
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
I will try to keep this short Ronald; to one point only.
I've selected these following extracts, to help understand, if you will, the sequence of events emanating from Heaven. You wrote: "My understanding is the pre-existence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created"; "In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything"; and "He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world".
Given what you've declared, can I assume the following: Jesus was already in God's Mind & Plan (i.e. no physical Jesus yet) before anything was created; but through Jesus, Who was still in God's Mind/Plan, everything was created; even though Jesus (Who could only be in God's Mind at the time) preceded creation, through Jesus all was created & then Jesus was brought forth into the world. I've written this as I've understood your wording; let me know if I've misunderstood you.
If my understanding is correct, my question is, 'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan. We have no conflict about the Spirit, should we be in dispute about the Word being sent out in flesh? Even Jesus claimed to share in God's Glory before creation ( John 17:5).
And one more point on this: why do you think that God would use a thought (of Jesus) in His Mind to begin the work of creation? I can see where this would be a salvation matter, but of creating (?) - wouldn't God still be able to create without Jesus being a thought in His Mind? We may be closer than we think: is Jesus a result of a Thought or a Word? It is possible that at this point is where our hurdle lies. GBU.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:12 Timothy 1:2Titus 1:42 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
It is true Ronald, that most of those Scriptures you've cited certainly show that there is only One God & none else. I can wholeheartedly agree with that belief, that we together share in.
You also mentioned the Holy Spirit. Without introducing the Holy Spirit into this thread but for the sake of comparison & meditation, I'm sure you wouldn't deny that God sent out His Spirit to accomplish His Work in the World & in hearts ( John 16:7-11, & others). How can God send out His Spirit, & yet be Who He is, without being grossly deficient in His Being? Is God now Spirit-less since the Holy Spirit has been sent into the World & how can the Spirit also be dissected into millions of 'parts' (Spirits), filling each true believer with Himself, i.e. with God's Presence in them? Likewise, if God can do so with His Spirit & still be Spirit Himself, & this is a mystery to us, can He not also do so with His Word? Does this leave God devoid of knowledge, speech or thought, because He sent out His Word first by the prophets, then in & through His Son? ( Hebrews 1:1-3). The difference here now is, this Word was not just a spoken Word, but the "Word was made flesh". We couldn't say this, nor have read that any prophet of the OT, having received the Word, was made flesh.
With the many Scriptures that have already been given, I find it very reasonable to believe that this Word was treated just as God did with His Spirit. God sent out His Word in the olden days via His prophets, but the time had come when His Word would be sent out in His Son. If all we had was the account in Matthew 1:20-25 that Mary gave birth to a special Son, from the Holy Seed of God, then yes, this appearance of this One called Emmanuel & Jesus, was indeed a fresh creation by God to bring out His Word, not just in speech form, but in demonstration of the Holiness of God, His Power, His Love, & ultimately, His Sacrifice. Onto Page 2.
Yet, since we've been given more insight to the 'origin' of this Son of God, we are compelled to give that due consideration. I realize that you have your interpretation of certain of those verses, e.g. John 1:1 & you've even given John 17:3 in your comment here. But in Jesus' prayer to His Father, He didn't stop there; He also said John 17:5. Maybe, your thoughts on what He meant, for I have labored over this verse & cannot re-construct it to fit any other meaning than what is given. Who then is this Jesus? Just a created Man from Holy Seed or One coming from the Person of God, Who shared in God's Glory, Who created the worlds, Who alone could live a sinless life to set men free from sin's grip & resulting damnation?
Lastly, you asked, "If the Trinity is true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture?" I believe that the Trinity is taught in Scripture (a few pertinent verses were previously given), just as we learn of the major doctrines: of God, of Jesus, of the Holy Spirit, of Salvation, of Satan, of the Future. It's just not given to us in a special Book or under a special Heading, "Herewith is the complete & unabridged Doctrine of ..". As in all matters spiritual, we have to learn from the reading of all Scripture, yet "rightly divided" & Spirit-guided. My natural mind wants to believe that Jesus came as God's Son, through a Divine Birth, having no previous Form within God's Person. But for me to hold to that belief means I would have to throw out a whole lot of Scripture that tells me that there is more to this Son of God than what I would like to believe. My hunger for God's Word & Truth will simply not allow me to avoid or reject those verses. And I write this purely as an arrow piercing my own heart & understanding & not pointed to anyone else, as we all have to be clear in conscience before God in the treatment of His precious Word - and I'm particularly sensitive to that - even as I "tremble at His Word". Blessings.
Thank you for continuing the discussion, I also tremble at His word we are just a spec compared to our God. Deuteronomy 18:15-19 This to me is fulfilled in John 1:1 the word of God in Jesus the Messiah. When Jesus was anointed the Messiah every word that Jesus said was the word of God the word of God in the flesh of His Son. Everything that was created was created by the word of God, not His Son. God said let there be, and it was.
If we read Isaiah 66:1 we cannot imagine how large God can be. He can overwhelm all of what we can imagine. In my human mind, I see His Spirit cover the earth like a dome, omnipresent, it is like an electrical grid that believers plug into, I know that may sound weird.
John 17 I will do my best to show my understanding, this is just before Jesus was going to be nailed to the cross. Verses 1-5 Jesus is praying to the Father about Himself, the Father is God, when we pray, we pray to our Father, and we relate to God as Father, through the Bible Father means God and Jesus said to His Father He is the only true God. In and through Jesus Christ we become sons and daughters of God, so we cry out Abba, Father, Galatians 4:6.
Jesus said He had finished the work the Father had given to Him and Jesus glorified His Father on earth. Jesus is now ready to face death on the cross and fulfilling the law and the prophet's, all of what Scripture had said what He would become, and Jesus was ready to take His place on the right hand of His Father, Isaiah 53:12Jeremiah 23:5-62 Samuel 7:12-13Psalm 110:4Psalm 16:10, these are just a few verses that Jesus would have known about Himself.
In Daniel 7:13-14 Daniel had a prophetic vision of Jesus's ascension and God the Father giving His Son Jesus dominion and glory overall and giving Him the kingdom. God showed Daniel this was with God in the beginning, in God's plan but did not come to fruition until Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9.
Vs 5 The plan of God, predetermined glory, Jesus knew the Scriptures. All that was to happen to Him and the glory He would receive after He suffered on the cross had already been spoken by the prophets in the past tense as though they had already happened.
As Jesus was on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-26, He talks about them not believing what the prophets had written about what was to happen to Jesus. The first man to be raised from the dead in a glorified body and God placed Him on His right hand on the throne a man, not a god.
Jesus was a man who was tempted like us and fulfilled all His Father asked Him we see hundreds of prophecies Jesus fulfilled and the man Jesus did it without one sin. Only a man could undo what the first man did. God could not do that because He cannot sin or die. The law was made for man and the curse of sin was on man, not God.
In Verses 20-22, Jesus had not yet been crucified and the glory the Father had given Him Jesus has given it to us today "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" This glory we will receive when Jesus returns and we are resurrected in our glorified bodies, we have it now, but it will not be manifest until Jesus returns.
If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it? Malachi 3:6 says God does not change so God cannot change, Numbers 23:19Isaiah 46:10Psalm 33:11Acts 17:26 The glory Jesus was asking for, He would receive when He resurrected.
The Spirit could not be given because Jesus had not been glorified (resurrected) John 7:39 Things were hidden from the disciples until Jesus was glorified (resurrected) John 12:16.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 It was given before creation so, John 17:24 we will be where He is when we are resurrected, Jesus was given glory with the Father before all creation in God's mind and plan. Ephesians 1:4
I hope this makes sense I am not the best at this.
Again, thank you for your comments Ronald, & I can see that this discussion will need to end. But before that & to respond to some of your comments here, Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Jesus (in His pre-Incarnate Form) was involved in creation, & not simply a Thought or Word in God's Mind. 'For by Him were all things createdall things created by Him & for Him He is before all things & by Him all things consist'. For Paul to make a declaration as this & then we should force a meaning that Jesus was not the Creator & Sustainer within the Godhead, would exceed the limits of my comprehension. I'm sorry. As well, the use of 'Him, He' (Gk. auto), tells us that we are reading of a Person (albeit within the Person of God), Who is creating & not simply a Thought in God's Mind.
And I selected John 17:5 as a very apt verse to show how clearly Jesus Himself considered the Glory He once had with God, Who is now His Father through the incarnation; that Glory He laid aside for the sake of becoming human & thus for the "suffering of death" (for God indeed cannot die). I planned to also bring in the other Scriptures that I had given a few days earlier, for your interpretation & understanding, but used this one as a 'case-in-point' to learn of your thoughts. To Page 2.
Then to your question, "If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it?" If we don't believe that Jesus came out from God's Person, then your question is valid. But if He did, then to become Man, taking on 'sinful flesh', He would have had to lay aside God's Glory & other Divine Attributes ( Philippians 2:5-8), so that He could be fully Man, to identify completely with those He would save & be their sin-bearer - for God in His Being cannot suffer & die as appointed unto men.
Thus when we read 1 John 4:2,3; we know that John is not speaking of an historical Jesus, for all knew of (or heard of) this One named Jesus of Nazareth Who lived & walked on Earth doing great things. But those who denied that this Christ from God had been brought down to Earth to be made flesh, were deemed by the apostle as not speaking by God's Spirit (& this is that Docetic heresy that was pervading the Church: that Divinity & Flesh cannot unite, so the incarnation is incredible). So dear brother, I can see your interpretation of such verses & was exercised by them to understand them the way you do, but for me to read them in that manner would cause me to violate my comprehension abilities & sensibilities.
Therefore, I think it best we leave off here, as much as I would like to continue, for I see no useful progress to be made when we read the Word so differently. Thank you again for your time & persisting in this - I do appreciate this very much. Every blessing.
I thank you for even discussing this and whether you consider me a brother I consider you one. All I have replied to you is the truth from my understanding of Scripture. In your reply, I feel I have offended you and that was not my goal. Like I said from the beginning is to convey my understanding of the Scripture. Your understanding is for your conscience. If you choose one road and I choose another we will find the answer at the end of the road. But if we are not willing to empty our minds as we know nothing, in prayer study, we choose tradition over truth.
Thank you Ronald, indeed a brother in Christ. Certainly, no offence taken at all. You have shared what you clearly believe from the Word, as I have also done (and btw not from tradition). Actually, I oppose 'tradition' as a basis for belief or action in matters spiritual; so it takes much study & prayer on my part in either accepting or rejecting what is generally accepted by the Church to what is actually given in the Bible. Maybe, that is why I never 'perfectly fit' into any congregation - but again, does anyone if they're honest?
So, in one sense, it becomes a personal matter until the Spirit sheds His Light to bring us understanding. And as I mentioned earlier, we may, even with our differences on this subject, might still be closer in agreement than we realize. After all, you do believe, I trust, that it was God Who placed His Holy Seed in Mary, so immediately we know that this was no ordinary human birth. The matter then surrounds whether this Seed was first in another Form within God's Person Who was also involved in creation & very likely in other Works of God, or not. As you wrote, we will know all these things "at the end of the road". Blessings to you & yours, in Christ Jesus and thanks again for a good lively discussion.
In addition to the earlier reply may I add to what you state,"but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan."
The principles of Wisdom and Power have a bearing on the Son, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,"(He.1:3) The word of his power is assigned to the same one who is the judge. God does not judge since it left for the Son as he is his fulfilling aspect. The Order of his kingdom is not maintained solely by power but by wisdom in equal measures. So when we speak of Law it is consistent. The eternal Word is the Law. God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living soul. It is the seed which is in itself. This seed and the one who plants it are same. Adam is the son of God because of this seed. This explains the classic conundrum: which came first: the chicken or egg? God had seen both as one. It was thus when God says,"Let us make man in our image" the word was in the power as well. Glory of God is in its expression. Jesus Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is 'the brightness of his glory'
It is to which we read "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light./And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."(Ge.1:3-4) God is the Father of lights and Jesus Christ as the true Light referring to the brightness. This light has nothing to do with celestial objects but it refers to the Law and those who have the seed of the word in themselves so they obey the word of God. Children of light and children of disobedience are determined by the Word.
Abiding in Christ means one's works are done as though Christ in his did. On the other hand Adam's sin was in disregarding 'the seed in itself'.
Satan is the Father of confusion. Organized churches took root from Pagan Rome, that tells.
Thank you Bennymkje for those extra comments on God's Creative Work, particularly noting you referred to the first Adam (Man) & the last Adam (the Man Christ Jesus). The first was from "the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). The first was created from the dust of the Earth, Jesus was never created from anything but was the Lord from Heaven sent to Earth in human form. Is this what you also believe?
Adam was created; and the Lord from heaven, the Word become flesh. For this reason Adam was a stand-in for Jesus Christ. So the separation of light from darkness (Ge.1:3-4) shall have two nations, of light and of wrath. Seth onwards we see heirs of promises because they represent Jesus Christ who was to come. The idea 'only begotten Son ( John 3:16) signify the Word or the Law in operation. Humanity of Jesus has to be seen as faithful and true witness of it.
You state: "'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan."
God is one. This Order relates to two principles of Wisdom and Power, which are the basis for all action including creation. Wisdom is feminine principle. So when God says, Let us make man in our image' it was implied. Male and female created he them. this image/likeness was in two senses:Eve was represented in Adam. This explains Ro.5 where Adam and Jesus are representative of two groups. Ro.5:12,17
2) Christ and the Bride. Adams' knowledge of 'Flesh of my flesh bone of my bones' owe to the breath of God. bone refers to the word, doctrine spiritual flesh 'formed of dust' earthy.
God is a Spirit and Jesus Christ is the visible image of God. Adam is the son of God.( Luke 3:78) In Adam consequently Jesus is represented. To which we have the terms first Adam and 'last Adam' (1 Co.15:45)
Now the divine Will which owing to his Holiness, requires no correction and it is in the NOW. So symbol of the Lamb slain (Re.13:8) is simultaneous as the Lamb of God ( John 1:29). The same can be said of the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1) Jesus Christ as the visible image is same, yesterday, today and forever..He 13:8. For this reason God rested on the seventh 'day' which is not day as we know the term. God's Will as established as the Wisdom of Jesus who of God shall fulfill them.
Your quote, "but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan." Amen
Page 1.
Thanks again Ronald, and I note that you would like a recess on this discussion. But if I might briefly address the Scriptures you shared & why I believe that they don't answer the question, 'was Jesus' first appearance only from the womb of Mary, or did He exist in another Form within the Person of God?'
To your references:
1 Corinthians 15:47: "the second man is the Lord from Heaven" (not a Man Who became Lord, Who went into Heaven & then returned to Earth as Lord from Heaven - but the Lord Who was in Heaven & came to Earth, unlike the first man, Adam, Who was created from the Earth & back to the Earth he went).
1 Timothy 2:5: yes, Jesus is the Mediator now between God & mankind after His ascension.
Matthew 1:20, Acts 17:31, Revelation 12:5: yes again, all point to Jesus as a Man/Babe Who came from God - but no direct reference to any previous existence.
Hebrews 1:5: indeed, Jesus became the Son of God by virtue of this miraculous Birth, but then God would have created another god, because 'all the angels of God are to worship Him'; & none can receive worship but God alone. You asked, "How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father?" Because God took His Word & gave Flesh to that Word, and this Flesh was brought into the World by the Work of God, which made this One called Jesus, God's Son. Jesus only became the Son of God at the Incarnation.
Hebrews 2:7: Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" by virtue of His Humanity. It seems there is an order of created beings before God: the angels being above humanity, of which Jesus was made, thus subjecting Him to being our equal.
Onto Page 2.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
Part one,
As I said I am not the best in explaining my understanding and I will try, I feel you deserve it, for you have been gracious to even discuss this with me.
1 Corinthians 15:47 This is after Jesus was raised from the dead and Paul is saying our Lord. First the earthy the first Adam then the spiritual the last Adam Jesus who did come from heaven when Jesus, God's Son was conceived in Mary's womb.
We see in Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Jesus defeated death because He was without sin the firstborn from the dead the only man who lived a perfect life. After He was baptized and anointed God gave Him authority John 5:26-27.
Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5 My understanding is the preexistence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created. A man caused sin to enter mankind and it had to be a man to live a perfect life to fulfill and make void the law, God could not do that.
Hebrews 1:5 Jesus is not a God there is only one true God, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. a man who is God's Son conceived in Mary, who God raised in a glorified body and placed Him on His right side on His throne above all that is in heaven and earth and under the earth.
See part two.
Part two,
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
Love you brother and God bless.
RLW
I've selected these following extracts, to help understand, if you will, the sequence of events emanating from Heaven. You wrote: "My understanding is the pre-existence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created"; "In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything"; and "He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world".
Given what you've declared, can I assume the following: Jesus was already in God's Mind & Plan (i.e. no physical Jesus yet) before anything was created; but through Jesus, Who was still in God's Mind/Plan, everything was created; even though Jesus (Who could only be in God's Mind at the time) preceded creation, through Jesus all was created & then Jesus was brought forth into the world. I've written this as I've understood your wording; let me know if I've misunderstood you.
If my understanding is correct, my question is, 'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan. We have no conflict about the Spirit, should we be in dispute about the Word being sent out in flesh? Even Jesus claimed to share in God's Glory before creation ( John 17:5).
And one more point on this: why do you think that God would use a thought (of Jesus) in His Mind to begin the work of creation? I can see where this would be a salvation matter, but of creating (?) - wouldn't God still be able to create without Jesus being a thought in His Mind? We may be closer than we think: is Jesus a result of a Thought or a Word? It is possible that at this point is where our hurdle lies. GBU.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17 Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 Titus 1:4 2 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
God bless,
RLW
It is true Ronald, that most of those Scriptures you've cited certainly show that there is only One God & none else. I can wholeheartedly agree with that belief, that we together share in.
You also mentioned the Holy Spirit. Without introducing the Holy Spirit into this thread but for the sake of comparison & meditation, I'm sure you wouldn't deny that God sent out His Spirit to accomplish His Work in the World & in hearts ( John 16:7-11, & others). How can God send out His Spirit, & yet be Who He is, without being grossly deficient in His Being? Is God now Spirit-less since the Holy Spirit has been sent into the World & how can the Spirit also be dissected into millions of 'parts' (Spirits), filling each true believer with Himself, i.e. with God's Presence in them? Likewise, if God can do so with His Spirit & still be Spirit Himself, & this is a mystery to us, can He not also do so with His Word? Does this leave God devoid of knowledge, speech or thought, because He sent out His Word first by the prophets, then in & through His Son? ( Hebrews 1:1-3). The difference here now is, this Word was not just a spoken Word, but the "Word was made flesh". We couldn't say this, nor have read that any prophet of the OT, having received the Word, was made flesh.
With the many Scriptures that have already been given, I find it very reasonable to believe that this Word was treated just as God did with His Spirit. God sent out His Word in the olden days via His prophets, but the time had come when His Word would be sent out in His Son. If all we had was the account in Matthew 1:20-25 that Mary gave birth to a special Son, from the Holy Seed of God, then yes, this appearance of this One called Emmanuel & Jesus, was indeed a fresh creation by God to bring out His Word, not just in speech form, but in demonstration of the Holiness of God, His Power, His Love, & ultimately, His Sacrifice. Onto Page 2.
Yet, since we've been given more insight to the 'origin' of this Son of God, we are compelled to give that due consideration. I realize that you have your interpretation of certain of those verses, e.g. John 1:1 & you've even given John 17:3 in your comment here. But in Jesus' prayer to His Father, He didn't stop there; He also said John 17:5. Maybe, your thoughts on what He meant, for I have labored over this verse & cannot re-construct it to fit any other meaning than what is given. Who then is this Jesus? Just a created Man from Holy Seed or One coming from the Person of God, Who shared in God's Glory, Who created the worlds, Who alone could live a sinless life to set men free from sin's grip & resulting damnation?
Lastly, you asked, "If the Trinity is true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture?" I believe that the Trinity is taught in Scripture (a few pertinent verses were previously given), just as we learn of the major doctrines: of God, of Jesus, of the Holy Spirit, of Salvation, of Satan, of the Future. It's just not given to us in a special Book or under a special Heading, "Herewith is the complete & unabridged Doctrine of ..". As in all matters spiritual, we have to learn from the reading of all Scripture, yet "rightly divided" & Spirit-guided. My natural mind wants to believe that Jesus came as God's Son, through a Divine Birth, having no previous Form within God's Person. But for me to hold to that belief means I would have to throw out a whole lot of Scripture that tells me that there is more to this Son of God than what I would like to believe. My hunger for God's Word & Truth will simply not allow me to avoid or reject those verses. And I write this purely as an arrow piercing my own heart & understanding & not pointed to anyone else, as we all have to be clear in conscience before God in the treatment of His precious Word - and I'm particularly sensitive to that - even as I "tremble at His Word". Blessings.
Part one.
Thank you for continuing the discussion, I also tremble at His word we are just a spec compared to our God. Deuteronomy 18:15-19 This to me is fulfilled in John 1:1 the word of God in Jesus the Messiah. When Jesus was anointed the Messiah every word that Jesus said was the word of God the word of God in the flesh of His Son. Everything that was created was created by the word of God, not His Son. God said let there be, and it was.
If we read Isaiah 66:1 we cannot imagine how large God can be. He can overwhelm all of what we can imagine. In my human mind, I see His Spirit cover the earth like a dome, omnipresent, it is like an electrical grid that believers plug into, I know that may sound weird.
John 17 I will do my best to show my understanding, this is just before Jesus was going to be nailed to the cross. Verses 1-5 Jesus is praying to the Father about Himself, the Father is God, when we pray, we pray to our Father, and we relate to God as Father, through the Bible Father means God and Jesus said to His Father He is the only true God. In and through Jesus Christ we become sons and daughters of God, so we cry out Abba, Father, Galatians 4:6.
Jesus said He had finished the work the Father had given to Him and Jesus glorified His Father on earth. Jesus is now ready to face death on the cross and fulfilling the law and the prophet's, all of what Scripture had said what He would become, and Jesus was ready to take His place on the right hand of His Father, Isaiah 53:12 Jeremiah 23:5-6 2 Samuel 7:12-13 Psalm 110:4 Psalm 16:10, these are just a few verses that Jesus would have known about Himself.
In Daniel 7:13-14 Daniel had a prophetic vision of Jesus's ascension and God the Father giving His Son Jesus dominion and glory overall and giving Him the kingdom. God showed Daniel this was with God in the beginning, in God's plan but did not come to fruition until Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9.
See part 2.
Part two
Vs 5 The plan of God, predetermined glory, Jesus knew the Scriptures. All that was to happen to Him and the glory He would receive after He suffered on the cross had already been spoken by the prophets in the past tense as though they had already happened.
As Jesus was on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-26, He talks about them not believing what the prophets had written about what was to happen to Jesus. The first man to be raised from the dead in a glorified body and God placed Him on His right hand on the throne a man, not a god.
Jesus was a man who was tempted like us and fulfilled all His Father asked Him we see hundreds of prophecies Jesus fulfilled and the man Jesus did it without one sin. Only a man could undo what the first man did. God could not do that because He cannot sin or die. The law was made for man and the curse of sin was on man, not God.
In Verses 20-22, Jesus had not yet been crucified and the glory the Father had given Him Jesus has given it to us today "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" This glory we will receive when Jesus returns and we are resurrected in our glorified bodies, we have it now, but it will not be manifest until Jesus returns.
If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it? Malachi 3:6 says God does not change so God cannot change, Numbers 23:19 Isaiah 46:10 Psalm 33:11 Acts 17:26 The glory Jesus was asking for, He would receive when He resurrected.
The Spirit could not be given because Jesus had not been glorified (resurrected) John 7:39 Things were hidden from the disciples until Jesus was glorified (resurrected) John 12:16.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 It was given before creation so, John 17:24 we will be where He is when we are resurrected, Jesus was given glory with the Father before all creation in God's mind and plan. Ephesians 1:4
I hope this makes sense I am not the best at this.
God bless,
RLW
Again, thank you for your comments Ronald, & I can see that this discussion will need to end. But before that & to respond to some of your comments here, Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Jesus (in His pre-Incarnate Form) was involved in creation, & not simply a Thought or Word in God's Mind. 'For by Him were all things createdall things created by Him & for Him He is before all things & by Him all things consist'. For Paul to make a declaration as this & then we should force a meaning that Jesus was not the Creator & Sustainer within the Godhead, would exceed the limits of my comprehension. I'm sorry. As well, the use of 'Him, He' (Gk. auto), tells us that we are reading of a Person (albeit within the Person of God), Who is creating & not simply a Thought in God's Mind.
And I selected John 17:5 as a very apt verse to show how clearly Jesus Himself considered the Glory He once had with God, Who is now His Father through the incarnation; that Glory He laid aside for the sake of becoming human & thus for the "suffering of death" (for God indeed cannot die). I planned to also bring in the other Scriptures that I had given a few days earlier, for your interpretation & understanding, but used this one as a 'case-in-point' to learn of your thoughts. To Page 2.
Then to your question, "If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it?" If we don't believe that Jesus came out from God's Person, then your question is valid. But if He did, then to become Man, taking on 'sinful flesh', He would have had to lay aside God's Glory & other Divine Attributes ( Philippians 2:5-8), so that He could be fully Man, to identify completely with those He would save & be their sin-bearer - for God in His Being cannot suffer & die as appointed unto men.
Thus when we read 1 John 4:2,3; we know that John is not speaking of an historical Jesus, for all knew of (or heard of) this One named Jesus of Nazareth Who lived & walked on Earth doing great things. But those who denied that this Christ from God had been brought down to Earth to be made flesh, were deemed by the apostle as not speaking by God's Spirit (& this is that Docetic heresy that was pervading the Church: that Divinity & Flesh cannot unite, so the incarnation is incredible). So dear brother, I can see your interpretation of such verses & was exercised by them to understand them the way you do, but for me to read them in that manner would cause me to violate my comprehension abilities & sensibilities.
Therefore, I think it best we leave off here, as much as I would like to continue, for I see no useful progress to be made when we read the Word so differently. Thank you again for your time & persisting in this - I do appreciate this very much. Every blessing.
I thank you for even discussing this and whether you consider me a brother I consider you one. All I have replied to you is the truth from my understanding of Scripture. In your reply, I feel I have offended you and that was not my goal. Like I said from the beginning is to convey my understanding of the Scripture. Your understanding is for your conscience. If you choose one road and I choose another we will find the answer at the end of the road. But if we are not willing to empty our minds as we know nothing, in prayer study, we choose tradition over truth.
Love you brother.
God bless,
RLW
So, in one sense, it becomes a personal matter until the Spirit sheds His Light to bring us understanding. And as I mentioned earlier, we may, even with our differences on this subject, might still be closer in agreement than we realize. After all, you do believe, I trust, that it was God Who placed His Holy Seed in Mary, so immediately we know that this was no ordinary human birth. The matter then surrounds whether this Seed was first in another Form within God's Person Who was also involved in creation & very likely in other Works of God, or not. As you wrote, we will know all these things "at the end of the road". Blessings to you & yours, in Christ Jesus and thanks again for a good lively discussion.
God bless you both.
The principles of Wisdom and Power have a bearing on the Son, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,"(He.1:3) The word of his power is assigned to the same one who is the judge. God does not judge since it left for the Son as he is his fulfilling aspect. The Order of his kingdom is not maintained solely by power but by wisdom in equal measures. So when we speak of Law it is consistent. The eternal Word is the Law. God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living soul. It is the seed which is in itself. This seed and the one who plants it are same. Adam is the son of God because of this seed. This explains the classic conundrum: which came first: the chicken or egg? God had seen both as one. It was thus when God says,"Let us make man in our image" the word was in the power as well. Glory of God is in its expression. Jesus Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is 'the brightness of his glory'
It is to which we read "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light./And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."(Ge.1:3-4) God is the Father of lights and Jesus Christ as the true Light referring to the brightness. This light has nothing to do with celestial objects but it refers to the Law and those who have the seed of the word in themselves so they obey the word of God. Children of light and children of disobedience are determined by the Word.
Abiding in Christ means one's works are done as though Christ in his did. On the other hand Adam's sin was in disregarding 'the seed in itself'.
Satan is the Father of confusion. Organized churches took root from Pagan Rome, that tells.
God is one. This Order relates to two principles of Wisdom and Power, which are the basis for all action including creation. Wisdom is feminine principle. So when God says, Let us make man in our image' it was implied. Male and female created he them. this image/likeness was in two senses:Eve was represented in Adam. This explains Ro.5 where Adam and Jesus are representative of two groups. Ro.5:12,17
2) Christ and the Bride. Adams' knowledge of 'Flesh of my flesh bone of my bones' owe to the breath of God. bone refers to the word, doctrine spiritual flesh 'formed of dust' earthy.
God is a Spirit and Jesus Christ is the visible image of God. Adam is the son of God.( Luke 3:78) In Adam consequently Jesus is represented. To which we have the terms first Adam and 'last Adam' (1 Co.15:45)
Now the divine Will which owing to his Holiness, requires no correction and it is in the NOW. So symbol of the Lamb slain (Re.13:8) is simultaneous as the Lamb of God ( John 1:29). The same can be said of the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1) Jesus Christ as the visible image is same, yesterday, today and forever..He 13:8. For this reason God rested on the seventh 'day' which is not day as we know the term. God's Will as established as the Wisdom of Jesus who of God shall fulfill them.
Your quote, "but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan." Amen
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