The whole reason you are still struggling with these sins is because you don't believe you can get them completely, totally out of your life. You can, if you believe in the sanctifying blood of Jesus and the strength of the Holy Spirit. We are also sanctified so that our human nature to sin is under the blood and it is eradicated. It has no more power over us as long as we give over to God during temptation and have faith that in Him that we will be able to overcome the temptation so we don't HAVE to sin, not so we CAN sin with impunity because we "can't" help it. This is so wrong. Why wouldn't you want to stop struggling with these sins and eradicate them form your life completely?
Here are some scriptures that tell this truth to us by God Himself:
Ephesians 4:22
"If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye PUT OFF concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye PUT ON THE NEW MAN, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (emphasis' are mine)
Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Romans 6: 12-14
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts.
I was not meaning that you have sinned in the ways I mentioned.
I do not think of myself as one who is defeated by sin and the sinful nature that still exists in me. I know that the Holy Spirit in me helps me to say no to sin when it tempts me. But I cannot say that I am 100% sinless as you seem to think that you are. This does not mean that I take sin lightly or give in readily. I don't to either of these. I believe we are being sanctified in an ongoing way, yet, like Paul does say, that we are in a fight against the sinful nature in us. (He calls it the "flesh"). Romans 7 shows us how Paul, as a believer, fights against the grip of sin-in his heart and soul, he desires to obey God, yet in his sinful nature (the "flesh")- not speaking of our actual cellular, material flesh, but the sin nature-causes him to do what he ought not do. And in 1 Corinthians 9 he speaks of fighting on so that he may not be cast away in the end.
I know we differ in this doctrine, You believe in complete sanctification (holiness, sinlessness) as taught by Wesley and holiness groups. I do not believe we reach this state in this life. The more obedient we are to God and the more we desire to live for Him in godly ways, the more aware we are of how we miss the mark of complete holiness that Jesus had in His human nature. For me, to say that one has reached complete sinless perfection is to say that one is completely holy like Jesus. That is a pretty audacious way to view oneself. I can honestly say that I do not always love as I ought to in every aspects of my life and relationships. I cannot speak for you. It is between you and the God we serve whether we are perfect as God is perfect in this life. We do have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us that justifies us before God, but from what I read in the Word, we still need Jesus to mediate between us and the Father as long as we are alive in this life.
As long as we live in this world, we have corruption in us in actuality, which is why we will always need Jesus as our Savior and Advocate (Mediator, High Priest) He intercedes for us. Why would He intercede for us if we are completely pure and righteous?
It is true that His Blood judicially brings forgiveness and cleansing to us when He shed it once and for all. But in time, His Blood continues to act in us in the same way whenever we sin and confess our sins to Him., whether known sins or unknown sins. David called on God to search him and show any wicked way in himself. He knew he did not know all of his sins and the corruption of his propensities and faults and weaknesses.
To determine that these are not sins is unbiblical. But those who advocate for sinless perfection redefine sin in order to claim to not sin anymore. They do not fathom the vast perfection of God compared to His corrupted creation (which needs to made incorruptible in the life to come). God is completely without corruption of any kind. No human can honestly say that or , as you said, we can enter heaven in this present flesh and blood body or even have no need to be changed in the resurrection. Also, those who advocate sinless perfection have a narrow and simple view of sin ignoring the total scope of what it means to sin or be sinful. Falling short of the glory of God is ANYTHING that is corrupted be it life, health, thinking, choices, actions, motives, and failures to do what we should do.
Jesus is said to have no guile in Him, which means that He never had any wrong motives, no selfish thoughts, no emotions fueled by sin, no misspoken words, no lack of goodness. He was and is always PERFECT in EVERY way.
Although some who advocate sinless perfection will say they do not claim to be as perfect and sinless as Jesus and that they are perfect like Adam and Eve before they sinned, the fact that we have sinned at all does not make us like this state even after we are saved
This amazingly started on a previous post where Paul was said to not be saved or atleast "not yet"
Paul said he was saved. If he didn't make it we're in trouble!
Paul said he was a master builder, and he helped lay the foundation which we are to build on.
Paul said a crown was laid up in heaven for him. 2 Timothy 4:7-8.
We have faults in our walk down here on earth tho we thrive for perfection.
Our thriving is evident we are not perfect. Another way we know we're not is that we die.
God requirements is perfection. If you ever sinned it's already to late if you feel you can come from under the atonement of the LORD.
We're left "Naked" without "CHRIST RIGHTEOUSNESS"
The Idea that you and I can be wrong about any matter suggests that we are not perfect.
How could this same corrupted person that struggle "WITHIN" judge anything to correct it to a degree he or she cannot reach? ( God's Holiness that we cannot fully comprehend)
Ignorance is no excuse!!
Only given an earnest of the Spirit can we fully comprehend the Holiness of God? No!
We are perfect because we are "in Christ Jesus" by His saving work. We are never perfect due to avoiding sin actions. Our whole being is corrupted by sin. It tempts us in our sinful nature and then this nature produces sin in us. ( James 1:13-15)
And every good thing we do is but filthy rags before God, who alone is perfectly holy and righteous. Every good thing we do is tainted by our sinful nature. But even so, we do not give up on fighting against the sinful nature within and also desire and work at obeying God. But this is not done in our own strength, but in the power that Jesus had to live a perfect life and that raised Him from the dead that we have at our avail through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Our holiness comes from Jesus' righteousness PERIOD. We on our own do not have the righteousness of God that is acceptable to Him. We receive this righteousness from Jesus' and believe what is said in Scriptures that His life, death, and resurrection cleanses us from all iniquity so that we can stand before the Father without sin, but it is always Jesus' sin-free and incorruptible character that merits us this place of right standing before God.
While it is true that positionally we are sin-free in Christ, in moment to moment living we are not. As some say, we have faults, shortcomings, weaknesses, errors in our thinking and judgment and actions that are somewhat automatic. This is the corruption in us which God never has. He alone is perfect and pure and righteous and holy ALWAYS. Though some do not see these propensities as sin, I do, because of what is said about the heart of man being deceitfully wicked above all things and desperately so, and without cure (by man) to paraphrase Jer. 17:9. No one can truly know how wicked our own heart is, only God knows. So, anyone who says that they are sinless and do not sin are deceived, as Jeremiah says.
GiGi: You did say "It is highly probable that you have faults (sins) such as these or others that when you read of them in Scripture the Holy Spirit pricks your heart so that, hopefully, I will repent of that sin. So you did accuse me of probably sinning because according to YOU faults are sins. The definition of faults according to the rest of the world is that they are "minor character weaknesses. Your refusal to see the difference between faults and sins will never bring you to the biblical understanding that this doctrine is false. As Christians we are told by God Himself, that we ARE to be holy as HE is Holy and we ARE to be perfect as HE is perfect, but you don't believe this teaching because you refuse to believe that our human nature is NOT eradicated when we become a true believer, as the SCRIPTURES, I gave you say which you did not respond to. After salvation we go on in the Lord to grow as He helps us to overcome our faults, again, minor weaknesses of our character, which we still have as humans, and to resist the TEMPTATION to sin. We are no longer sinners. Once again, as usual my "what if" question was ignored. Why, because it can't be answered! Let me give you something else to think about; if sinners go to hell when they die, as the bible plainly says and Christians go to heaven when they die, as the bible plainly says, where do sinning/christian go when they die? Nonsensical question? Not according to what you believe. Of course, we need Jesus to be our advocate with the Father when we repent of our sins. Jesus makes the way for us to be in a sinless state before the Father. But as long as we are here on this earth, Jesus is there for all our other needs as they present themselves to us. God is not a God of just forgiving sin, He is also a wonderful, all loving Father that is there for us always.
I never said I was as holy as Jesus, although I am sinless because of His divine blood and being fully sanctified. Jesus was not born into original sin, as I was, and He didn't have any faults, which I do. I am perfect as God's word defines, perfect because I am not living in sin. One last example of a fault, maybe I didn't exercise as much as I should have yesterday for the sake of my Fibromyalgia, to help me feel better. Is that a SIN, no it's a fault. Should I have gone on my knees and begged God for forgiveness so I don't go hell, no because it was a FAULT and I'll try to do better today. Why is this so hard to understand! How can God give us such assurance through obedience to Him that after salvation, as long as we don't sin, we are sinless. How can no sin equal being a sinner? There is no more use going on in this discussion, as I think you will agree, because we are just going in circles. What you believe in this is between you and the Lord. In honesty, I do believe you are a sinless true believer but with faults. I just pray you could come to believe this so you would stop promoting this false doctrine.
Hi Momsage. I've been following your discussion with GiGi & would ask a question. You stated, "I never said I was as holy as Jesus, although I am sinless because of His divine blood and being fully sanctified." I was wondering whether you actually meant: 'because of Jesus' Sacrifice for you & your coming to Him for forgiveness, you are now both forgiven & made RIGHTEOUS before God'.
Being 'righteous' in God's Eyes & being 'sinless' (i.e. without any trace of sin, as Jesus was) are quite different states. Being righteous before God, shows us our standing before Him & acceptance by Him because of Christ's Sacrifice. Being sinless would require that not only our spirits & souls would be made new but also our bodies; in other words, through Christ's Blood we should attain an Adam/Eve state, pre-fall. Our flesh, which is corrupt & sin-prone since our birth, can never be changed, at least not until Christ's appearing for us, & it is to that flesh that Satan makes his appeal, to which we succumb (some strong in the Lord will resist, others weaker).
You shared a good illustration of what you considered a fault (i.e. your not exercising which helps you with your Fibromyalgia). I agree that this is not a sinful act. But as you know that sin has its roots in the heart & mind, not just in an outward action ( Matthew 5:21-28); here Jesus is teaching clearly the full meaning of the Law, & not just by the letter that those under the OT Covenant gauged themselves.
Even in my own example that I have shared here before: when witnessing a vehicle accident about to occur (a car ran a red light), my intial reaction of surprise & shock (which isn't a sin as it's a normal human response), turned into a thought of condemnation of a foolish indifferent driver who should know better. But did I know that driver to judge him? (maybe he was distracted, a medical episode, a one-off bad judgement)? My sin in my thoughts alone, not just a fault, came to the fore, for which I confessed.
I agree that we should end this discussion. We differ in our view of sanctification and what holiness before God is. I can see that we will not come to agreement.
You have explained your view to me, and I have explained my view to you. We can end with that. I don't wish to go back and forth with any accusations. We can certainly re-read our posts and consider prayerfully what each other has said and go to Scriptures. That is the best way forward in this regard and so that is the path I will be taking. Blessings to you.
The whole reason you are still struggling with these sins is because you don't believe you can get them completely, totally out of your life. You can, if you believe in the sanctifying blood of Jesus and the strength of the Holy Spirit. We are also sanctified so that our human nature to sin is under the blood and it is eradicated. It has no more power over us as long as we give over to God during temptation and have faith that in Him that we will be able to overcome the temptation so we don't HAVE to sin, not so we CAN sin with impunity because we "can't" help it. This is so wrong. Why wouldn't you want to stop struggling with these sins and eradicate them form your life completely?
Here are some scriptures that tell this truth to us by God Himself:
Ephesians 4:22
"If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye PUT OFF concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye PUT ON THE NEW MAN, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (emphasis' are mine)
Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Romans 6: 12-14
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts.
I was not meaning that you have sinned in the ways I mentioned.
I do not think of myself as one who is defeated by sin and the sinful nature that still exists in me. I know that the Holy Spirit in me helps me to say no to sin when it tempts me. But I cannot say that I am 100% sinless as you seem to think that you are. This does not mean that I take sin lightly or give in readily. I don't to either of these. I believe we are being sanctified in an ongoing way, yet, like Paul does say, that we are in a fight against the sinful nature in us. (He calls it the "flesh"). Romans 7 shows us how Paul, as a believer, fights against the grip of sin-in his heart and soul, he desires to obey God, yet in his sinful nature (the "flesh")- not speaking of our actual cellular, material flesh, but the sin nature-causes him to do what he ought not do. And in 1 Corinthians 9 he speaks of fighting on so that he may not be cast away in the end.
I know we differ in this doctrine, You believe in complete sanctification (holiness, sinlessness) as taught by Wesley and holiness groups. I do not believe we reach this state in this life. The more obedient we are to God and the more we desire to live for Him in godly ways, the more aware we are of how we miss the mark of complete holiness that Jesus had in His human nature. For me, to say that one has reached complete sinless perfection is to say that one is completely holy like Jesus. That is a pretty audacious way to view oneself. I can honestly say that I do not always love as I ought to in every aspects of my life and relationships. I cannot speak for you. It is between you and the God we serve whether we are perfect as God is perfect in this life. We do have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us that justifies us before God, but from what I read in the Word, we still need Jesus to mediate between us and the Father as long as we are alive in this life.
Are we perfect in our "practical" sanctification or walk NO!
Are we perfect POSITIONALLY? Yes, we're hidden in Christ. We're clothed with his righteousness.
We can't clothed ourselves! Those are filthy rags that the scripture has much to say about.
If we were perfect in this body of death then we can take this "flesh and blood" and inherit God's kingdom without change.
God bless.
Part 2
As long as we live in this world, we have corruption in us in actuality, which is why we will always need Jesus as our Savior and Advocate (Mediator, High Priest) He intercedes for us. Why would He intercede for us if we are completely pure and righteous?
It is true that His Blood judicially brings forgiveness and cleansing to us when He shed it once and for all. But in time, His Blood continues to act in us in the same way whenever we sin and confess our sins to Him., whether known sins or unknown sins. David called on God to search him and show any wicked way in himself. He knew he did not know all of his sins and the corruption of his propensities and faults and weaknesses.
To determine that these are not sins is unbiblical. But those who advocate for sinless perfection redefine sin in order to claim to not sin anymore. They do not fathom the vast perfection of God compared to His corrupted creation (which needs to made incorruptible in the life to come). God is completely without corruption of any kind. No human can honestly say that or , as you said, we can enter heaven in this present flesh and blood body or even have no need to be changed in the resurrection. Also, those who advocate sinless perfection have a narrow and simple view of sin ignoring the total scope of what it means to sin or be sinful. Falling short of the glory of God is ANYTHING that is corrupted be it life, health, thinking, choices, actions, motives, and failures to do what we should do.
Jesus is said to have no guile in Him, which means that He never had any wrong motives, no selfish thoughts, no emotions fueled by sin, no misspoken words, no lack of goodness. He was and is always PERFECT in EVERY way.
Although some who advocate sinless perfection will say they do not claim to be as perfect and sinless as Jesus and that they are perfect like Adam and Eve before they sinned, the fact that we have sinned at all does not make us like this state even after we are saved
This amazingly started on a previous post where Paul was said to not be saved or atleast "not yet"
Paul said he was saved. If he didn't make it we're in trouble!
Paul said he was a master builder, and he helped lay the foundation which we are to build on.
Paul said a crown was laid up in heaven for him. 2 Timothy 4:7-8.
We have faults in our walk down here on earth tho we thrive for perfection.
Our thriving is evident we are not perfect. Another way we know we're not is that we die.
God requirements is perfection. If you ever sinned it's already to late if you feel you can come from under the atonement of the LORD.
We're left "Naked" without "CHRIST RIGHTEOUSNESS"
The Idea that you and I can be wrong about any matter suggests that we are not perfect.
How could this same corrupted person that struggle "WITHIN" judge anything to correct it to a degree he or she cannot reach? ( God's Holiness that we cannot fully comprehend)
Ignorance is no excuse!!
Only given an earnest of the Spirit can we fully comprehend the Holiness of God? No!
Romans 3:23-25 is where we stand.
God bless.
We are perfect because we are "in Christ Jesus" by His saving work. We are never perfect due to avoiding sin actions. Our whole being is corrupted by sin. It tempts us in our sinful nature and then this nature produces sin in us. ( James 1:13-15)
And every good thing we do is but filthy rags before God, who alone is perfectly holy and righteous. Every good thing we do is tainted by our sinful nature. But even so, we do not give up on fighting against the sinful nature within and also desire and work at obeying God. But this is not done in our own strength, but in the power that Jesus had to live a perfect life and that raised Him from the dead that we have at our avail through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Our holiness comes from Jesus' righteousness PERIOD. We on our own do not have the righteousness of God that is acceptable to Him. We receive this righteousness from Jesus' and believe what is said in Scriptures that His life, death, and resurrection cleanses us from all iniquity so that we can stand before the Father without sin, but it is always Jesus' sin-free and incorruptible character that merits us this place of right standing before God.
While it is true that positionally we are sin-free in Christ, in moment to moment living we are not. As some say, we have faults, shortcomings, weaknesses, errors in our thinking and judgment and actions that are somewhat automatic. This is the corruption in us which God never has. He alone is perfect and pure and righteous and holy ALWAYS. Though some do not see these propensities as sin, I do, because of what is said about the heart of man being deceitfully wicked above all things and desperately so, and without cure (by man) to paraphrase Jer. 17:9. No one can truly know how wicked our own heart is, only God knows. So, anyone who says that they are sinless and do not sin are deceived, as Jeremiah says.
I guess I need to go to part 2.
I never said I was as holy as Jesus, although I am sinless because of His divine blood and being fully sanctified. Jesus was not born into original sin, as I was, and He didn't have any faults, which I do. I am perfect as God's word defines, perfect because I am not living in sin. One last example of a fault, maybe I didn't exercise as much as I should have yesterday for the sake of my Fibromyalgia, to help me feel better. Is that a SIN, no it's a fault. Should I have gone on my knees and begged God for forgiveness so I don't go hell, no because it was a FAULT and I'll try to do better today. Why is this so hard to understand! How can God give us such assurance through obedience to Him that after salvation, as long as we don't sin, we are sinless. How can no sin equal being a sinner? There is no more use going on in this discussion, as I think you will agree, because we are just going in circles. What you believe in this is between you and the Lord. In honesty, I do believe you are a sinless true believer but with faults. I just pray you could come to believe this so you would stop promoting this false doctrine.
See you in a new discussion. God Bless :)
Being 'righteous' in God's Eyes & being 'sinless' (i.e. without any trace of sin, as Jesus was) are quite different states. Being righteous before God, shows us our standing before Him & acceptance by Him because of Christ's Sacrifice. Being sinless would require that not only our spirits & souls would be made new but also our bodies; in other words, through Christ's Blood we should attain an Adam/Eve state, pre-fall. Our flesh, which is corrupt & sin-prone since our birth, can never be changed, at least not until Christ's appearing for us, & it is to that flesh that Satan makes his appeal, to which we succumb (some strong in the Lord will resist, others weaker).
You shared a good illustration of what you considered a fault (i.e. your not exercising which helps you with your Fibromyalgia). I agree that this is not a sinful act. But as you know that sin has its roots in the heart & mind, not just in an outward action ( Matthew 5:21-28); here Jesus is teaching clearly the full meaning of the Law, & not just by the letter that those under the OT Covenant gauged themselves.
Even in my own example that I have shared here before: when witnessing a vehicle accident about to occur (a car ran a red light), my intial reaction of surprise & shock (which isn't a sin as it's a normal human response), turned into a thought of condemnation of a foolish indifferent driver who should know better. But did I know that driver to judge him? (maybe he was distracted, a medical episode, a one-off bad judgement)? My sin in my thoughts alone, not just a fault, came to the fore, for which I confessed.
[Comment Removed]
I agree that we should end this discussion. We differ in our view of sanctification and what holiness before God is. I can see that we will not come to agreement.
You have explained your view to me, and I have explained my view to you. We can end with that. I don't wish to go back and forth with any accusations. We can certainly re-read our posts and consider prayerfully what each other has said and go to Scriptures. That is the best way forward in this regard and so that is the path I will be taking. Blessings to you.
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