This isn't a comment related to your past issue; but one on prayer.
I have been contemplating for months whether the painful decision to temporarily move out would be something to give my mom the impetus to get more help for herself and my dad before she does serious injury to herself. It is also to press her to start following a couple specific things the doctors have told her to do that she is holding out on. My concern is that the next fall would be catastrophic; and since my dad's mind is going (although he is in physically better shape) she needs help as it has proven for the last 2 years to be too much.
I have a Christian friend who I lived with in the past in Pittsburgh that has a room available according to a church bulletin. Things were a bit tricky there before as to his being noisy at night; etc. He may not be amenable to a short term stay (actaully he just texted me that he is not sure about the house but he would talk later).
I wanted to ask you specifically as we have discussed these matters before and I'm sure you'll keep me in prayer.
I will continue to pray for your situation. It is a big decision and it involves your parents best interests as well as your own well-being. It is tough seeing one's parents age to the point of needing so much more care than you can provide, yet they want you to be the provider in this time of need. I hope that they will be led to make choices that will help them in the long run while they still can make those choices on their own. And I pray that the Lord will open doors to living arrangements that will benefit you and whomever you will be living with.
Ugh. I just cut off my comment again with some stupid button on my computer. In short I am impressed by your superior wit and content with any subject; clearly it is superior to mine. I hope I'm not just enjoying the sound of my own voice; so to speak with all my commentary. I intend to make better use of my time with devoting more to evangelism and service in the future; this time I have had in my current situation is limited to have this much available for this site.
I was also starting to comment on my confusion about heaven and hell experiences. There was a supposed resurrection of an African pastor I heard about yesterday from Nov. 2001 which seemed iron clad with a picture of the mortuary statement with time of death; relateive testifying; etc. In any case this guy seems to have disappeared off the radar since 2002 when someone was supposed to have interviewed him. There are a few people like Bill Weise who at least has much scripture that is discussed corroborating with his story. When people are clinically dead the question is how long does it take for the soul to actually enter eternity? As for me; people sometimes express annoyance when anyone says the Lord has shown them something; but such things as the mark of the Beast were clearly shown to the point that the terror is so great that it used to leave me with a feeling of vertigo; beyond what I can handle. I have felt a clear calling to preach on that matter since my conversion in 1982. Spiritual discernment is my gifting as you probably are aware; but I am still mystified by the way He works. I know that obedience and disciplines help us in strength; but the times when there seems to be a particular anointing still seem unpredictable. I can think of 3 individuals in my life who have a gift of discernment out of probably hundreds I have known.
It seems God has until now closed the door for me to move out. I strongly feel that I need to continue communicating with my old roommate
The forums I have read with this topic being discussed have shown that those who hold this position are inflexible about considering any other possible interpretation of Scripture than that which they hold to. They seem to be quite prideful and almost Phariseeical in reaffirming their sinlessness over and over again and accusing those who do not believe as they do as being advocates for sinning in believers (antinomianism) which is not what I believe nor most people who admit that we war against the sinful nature and, even though at times we fail and sin, we continue the fight against sin and rely on the power of God to strengthen us, sanctify us, and consecrate us to God more and more until we reach the resurrection or the return of Christ.
Thanks for your responses. I respect how you can help me in my understanding.
It troubles me to hear someone say they have been made perfect and they no longer "commit" sin when the Holy spirit convicts us of sin. The holyspirit also guides us to truth.
In 1 John 1 John is writing to believers. John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10.
John is writing to believers!!
There is not much more to said to a person if the Holy spirit isn't convicting and guiding them to this truth.
It think that I will end here. I pray that anyone who thinks themselves to have reached a state of sinless perfection would be given a heart like David, who knew the Lord and knew he needed to cast Himself continually upon the mercies and grace of God for righteousness that he did not have in all of his earthly life.
I hope your weekend goes well. I finished painting the laundry room so our washer and dryer can go back in on Monday now that the flooring is in. We need to make decisions about the cabinetry that will go in there whether it will be the same as our kitchen or just white utility type cabinets that were there before. So many decisions to be made in this adventure. Please pray that we make wise choices that will keep us within our budget.
11) they express a Pelagian view that we must "Keep" our salvation by the good works we do by not sinning outwardly, thus denying that our salvation is solely due to the grace, mercy, and love of God given to us freely in Christ by His sinless life, sacrificial death, and resurrection. It is His blood shed for us that cleanses us of our sin. It is the regeneration brought to us by the Holy Spirit that quickens us to eternal life and faith, and it is the Father who justifies us because Jesus' righteousness is our sole plea before the Father that we have as our ONLY defense from His condemnation and His righteousness is our only plea, witness, and evidence which the Father accepts as our righteousness before Him.
12) they underestimate the deceitfulness of sin and so are deceived into thinking that they have no sinful nature any longer and that they can be sinless in the moment or in a continuing way for the remainder of their life on earth.
13) they think there are two classes of believers, those who are as they: sinless and perfect as Jesus was on earth (how absurd) and others who are still "carnal" yet justified, but not sanctified like they are. This leads to arrogance and self-righteous attitudes that are sinful. This does not square with what Paul says in Galatians and Ephesians concerning how Jesus made all believers one in Christ regardless. We All stand equal before God and All of us have an equal need for the ongoing grace, mercy and love of God as well as the need to be continually sanctified to become more and more like Jesus in this life.
( Gal. 2:16-21;3:1-18; Eph 2:15)
14) they devalue the work of Jesus by trying to add to His work by their supposed sinfulness. This is saying that Jesus did not accomplish ALL of salvation for every believer.
15) they refuse to truly be like David in Ps. 51 when he admitted to having "secret" sin, unknown sin, and sin deep within Himself that God can only know of. He asked God to be merciful on himself
Yes,I agree S. Spencer, it is up to the Holy spirit to convict of sin and lead anyone in the truth, so we pray for this to happen in us and in others, including those who claim to have no sin and no longer sin and the sinful nature is removed from them and that the old man is dead and gone along with the desire to sin.
To those who believe in sinless perfection I would say that these things have occurred in them:
1) they have believed false teaching.
2) they underestimate the holiness of God including the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and that their holiness is the standard of righteousness.
3) they bring this standard lower according to their own determination of what holiness is.
4) they redefine sin in such a way that they can admit that they do not sin
5) they harden their hearts to the conviction of their own sin and sinfulness by the Holy Spirit due to a sense of pride and self-congratulation.
6) they deny that temptation arises within us due to sin's presence within us. Temptation from without, as with Jesus' temptation in the desert by Satan was unique because from within Him there was no sinful nature to be tempted by evil whether from within Himself and from without.
7) they misapply Scripture to support their view to the denial of so many Scriptures that speak of the sinful nature and actual sins committed in and by believers.
8) they fear that if they find they commit sin they lose their salvation and so they have a vital need for their doctrine and profession of sinfulness to be true.
9) this fear of losing salvation shows an inadequate knowledge of how we are saved perhaps even believing a "different gospel" that is works based and dependent on the persons ability to stay sinless.
10) they see their known faults, weaknesses, and mistakes as acceptable and not sinful instead of seeing them as sinful being a result of having a sinful nature within them. It is truly amazing what they will excuse as not sinful as "just being human".
I wanted to get back to you a bit on this topic. Perhaps you have some knowledge of this teaching that you can help me understand.
This teaching seems to teach that when we come to repentance and surrender to Jesus we will no longer be able to sin.
They teach that sin their is no sin in Christ and we are in Christ, no one who sins is in Christ.
They teach that the "old man" was crucified at the cross with Jesus (which is true positionally) but in actual time we were not alive when Jesus was crucified. So, it seems to me that Jesus death was efficacious for all time and when we come to faith in Him we can know that He made us a new creation spiritually. But we still have this corrupted self and nature, which was crucified with Christ so that it has lost its power to enslave us in sin. We can walk in newness of life and can resist temptation by the power of grace.
They say that anyone who claims to be a believer who sins is not saved and a false Christian.
They say that sinless perfection makes us righteous and holy like Jesus was in His earthly life.
They say that since our sinful nature is dead, it no longer affects us in any way.
They say that only those who do not sin anymore will enter heaven.
I am sure I will find out more of what some teachers of sinless perfection teach as I study it more. While many of the Scriptures they cite speak about living free from sin, they ignore so many other Scriptures that tells us to fight against the sinful nature because it wars against the Spirit in us and those Scriptures that say that we have not attained perfection and our bodies have not received the redemption promised in the resurrection when we will be made incorruptible and unable to sin anymore like Jesus.
I was hoping you may be able to give some clarity on this. I am not sure if it is worthwhile to refute this doctrine with someone who believes it because of what I have read on other forums on this topic. Cont.
I have read some of the teachings of some preachers of sinless perfection or complete sanctification.
Some of what they say is truly appalling. Here are some of these false teachings.
1) If one reaches sinless perfection and then sins they will lose their salvation. (This is senseless. If one is perfectly sinless, then they would be unable to sin, so why would a preacher say that one who has reached this state can sin?)
2) They say that the blood of Jesus is within us and therefore keeps us from sinning. (I do not find this teaching in the Scriptures). The cleansing blood of Jesus is a forensic action. It is done from the outside (from God) into us (the receiver). We do not have ownership of the blood of Jesus. It is always His. When we come to belief in the gospel and put our faith in Jesus, Our sins are removed and we are cleansed because He shed His blood for us once and for all.
3) They say that our sinful nature was removed from us when one reaches sinless perfection. (This is true in the resurrection, but not so as long as we are in this "body of sin". We are told to put to death the sinful nature by walking int he Spirit but Paul clearly teaches that this is an ongoing slaying of sin in our life by the power the Holy Spirit supplies. We are to put to death the sinful nature in us by walking by the Spirit. Does anyone ever completely walk by the in the Spirit 24/7? If someone has reached sinless perfection are they now unable to sin, as some say, because the old man is obliterated by the blood of Jesus? If so, temptation would not cause a struggle within them because the sinful nature is dead. Yet, they do speak of temptation being a challenge they must fight against (which is true of any believer, not just the select "elite" who believe they are in a sinless state.)
4) They say that they no longer have a sinful nature because of this complete sanctification. (Yet their bodies are still againg and deteriorating towards death.
We can do the right thing with the wrong heart and we fall short of perfection.
TO BE PERFECT YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE BLAMELESS.
1 Corinthians 8:9-12 is another scenario to consider.
We often think of the things we do wrong as sin.
What about the things we don't do right or good? Consider James 4:17.
Here's our goal.
Galatians 5:25-26
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Let's see if we are perfect in this using Galatians 5:24 "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Here's a list of the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21.
( Most of these we can claim on the surface but God judges the heart.)
Are we PERFECTLY blameless in not doing any of these in our hearts?
THOSE ARE A LIST OF THINGS A CHRISTIAN SHOULDN'T BE DOING. ( If we are doing these we are sinning.)
Christians are known "BY" there Love for one another and should be barring fruit.
John 13:34-35.
1 John 4:20-21.
Matthew 7:15-16.
Let's use Galatians 5:22-23 to see what we should be doing. "PERFECTLY since our focus is on the ability to be perfect in these natural bodies.
love,
joy,
peace,
longsuffering,
gentleness,
goodness,
faith,
Meekness,
temperance.
IF YOU ARE NOT DOING THESE PERFECTLY "FOREVER ON! YOU ARE NOT PERFECT OR BLAMELESS.
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17.
God bless.
I will get back to you later. The workers are here to do more work on our home repairs. I hope your day goes very well.
I have been contemplating for months whether the painful decision to temporarily move out would be something to give my mom the impetus to get more help for herself and my dad before she does serious injury to herself. It is also to press her to start following a couple specific things the doctors have told her to do that she is holding out on. My concern is that the next fall would be catastrophic; and since my dad's mind is going (although he is in physically better shape) she needs help as it has proven for the last 2 years to be too much.
I have a Christian friend who I lived with in the past in Pittsburgh that has a room available according to a church bulletin. Things were a bit tricky there before as to his being noisy at night; etc. He may not be amenable to a short term stay (actaully he just texted me that he is not sure about the house but he would talk later).
I wanted to ask you specifically as we have discussed these matters before and I'm sure you'll keep me in prayer.
Agape; Rich P.
I will continue to pray for your situation. It is a big decision and it involves your parents best interests as well as your own well-being. It is tough seeing one's parents age to the point of needing so much more care than you can provide, yet they want you to be the provider in this time of need. I hope that they will be led to make choices that will help them in the long run while they still can make those choices on their own. And I pray that the Lord will open doors to living arrangements that will benefit you and whomever you will be living with.
I was also starting to comment on my confusion about heaven and hell experiences. There was a supposed resurrection of an African pastor I heard about yesterday from Nov. 2001 which seemed iron clad with a picture of the mortuary statement with time of death; relateive testifying; etc. In any case this guy seems to have disappeared off the radar since 2002 when someone was supposed to have interviewed him. There are a few people like Bill Weise who at least has much scripture that is discussed corroborating with his story. When people are clinically dead the question is how long does it take for the soul to actually enter eternity? As for me; people sometimes express annoyance when anyone says the Lord has shown them something; but such things as the mark of the Beast were clearly shown to the point that the terror is so great that it used to leave me with a feeling of vertigo; beyond what I can handle. I have felt a clear calling to preach on that matter since my conversion in 1982. Spiritual discernment is my gifting as you probably are aware; but I am still mystified by the way He works. I know that obedience and disciplines help us in strength; but the times when there seems to be a particular anointing still seem unpredictable. I can think of 3 individuals in my life who have a gift of discernment out of probably hundreds I have known.
It seems God has until now closed the door for me to move out. I strongly feel that I need to continue communicating with my old roommate
Sinless Perfection continued.
The forums I have read with this topic being discussed have shown that those who hold this position are inflexible about considering any other possible interpretation of Scripture than that which they hold to. They seem to be quite prideful and almost Phariseeical in reaffirming their sinlessness over and over again and accusing those who do not believe as they do as being advocates for sinning in believers (antinomianism) which is not what I believe nor most people who admit that we war against the sinful nature and, even though at times we fail and sin, we continue the fight against sin and rely on the power of God to strengthen us, sanctify us, and consecrate us to God more and more until we reach the resurrection or the return of Christ.
Thanks for your responses. I respect how you can help me in my understanding.
I see this the way you do Gigi.
It troubles me to hear someone say they have been made perfect and they no longer "commit" sin when the Holy spirit convicts us of sin. The holyspirit also guides us to truth.
In 1 John 1 John is writing to believers. John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10.
John is writing to believers!!
There is not much more to said to a person if the Holy spirit isn't convicting and guiding them to this truth.
God bless.
It think that I will end here. I pray that anyone who thinks themselves to have reached a state of sinless perfection would be given a heart like David, who knew the Lord and knew he needed to cast Himself continually upon the mercies and grace of God for righteousness that he did not have in all of his earthly life.
I hope your weekend goes well. I finished painting the laundry room so our washer and dryer can go back in on Monday now that the flooring is in. We need to make decisions about the cabinetry that will go in there whether it will be the same as our kitchen or just white utility type cabinets that were there before. So many decisions to be made in this adventure. Please pray that we make wise choices that will keep us within our budget.
Pt.2
11) they express a Pelagian view that we must "Keep" our salvation by the good works we do by not sinning outwardly, thus denying that our salvation is solely due to the grace, mercy, and love of God given to us freely in Christ by His sinless life, sacrificial death, and resurrection. It is His blood shed for us that cleanses us of our sin. It is the regeneration brought to us by the Holy Spirit that quickens us to eternal life and faith, and it is the Father who justifies us because Jesus' righteousness is our sole plea before the Father that we have as our ONLY defense from His condemnation and His righteousness is our only plea, witness, and evidence which the Father accepts as our righteousness before Him.
12) they underestimate the deceitfulness of sin and so are deceived into thinking that they have no sinful nature any longer and that they can be sinless in the moment or in a continuing way for the remainder of their life on earth.
13) they think there are two classes of believers, those who are as they: sinless and perfect as Jesus was on earth (how absurd) and others who are still "carnal" yet justified, but not sanctified like they are. This leads to arrogance and self-righteous attitudes that are sinful. This does not square with what Paul says in Galatians and Ephesians concerning how Jesus made all believers one in Christ regardless. We All stand equal before God and All of us have an equal need for the ongoing grace, mercy and love of God as well as the need to be continually sanctified to become more and more like Jesus in this life.
( Gal. 2:16-21;3:1-18; Eph 2:15)
14) they devalue the work of Jesus by trying to add to His work by their supposed sinfulness. This is saying that Jesus did not accomplish ALL of salvation for every believer.
15) they refuse to truly be like David in Ps. 51 when he admitted to having "secret" sin, unknown sin, and sin deep within Himself that God can only know of. He asked God to be merciful on himself
To those who believe in sinless perfection I would say that these things have occurred in them:
1) they have believed false teaching.
2) they underestimate the holiness of God including the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and that their holiness is the standard of righteousness.
3) they bring this standard lower according to their own determination of what holiness is.
4) they redefine sin in such a way that they can admit that they do not sin
5) they harden their hearts to the conviction of their own sin and sinfulness by the Holy Spirit due to a sense of pride and self-congratulation.
6) they deny that temptation arises within us due to sin's presence within us. Temptation from without, as with Jesus' temptation in the desert by Satan was unique because from within Him there was no sinful nature to be tempted by evil whether from within Himself and from without.
7) they misapply Scripture to support their view to the denial of so many Scriptures that speak of the sinful nature and actual sins committed in and by believers.
8) they fear that if they find they commit sin they lose their salvation and so they have a vital need for their doctrine and profession of sinfulness to be true.
9) this fear of losing salvation shows an inadequate knowledge of how we are saved perhaps even believing a "different gospel" that is works based and dependent on the persons ability to stay sinless.
10) they see their known faults, weaknesses, and mistakes as acceptable and not sinful instead of seeing them as sinful being a result of having a sinful nature within them. It is truly amazing what they will excuse as not sinful as "just being human".
see pt.
Thanks for reaching out!
I will get back with you tomorrow it's getting late here.
Good night and God bless.
I wanted to get back to you a bit on this topic. Perhaps you have some knowledge of this teaching that you can help me understand.
This teaching seems to teach that when we come to repentance and surrender to Jesus we will no longer be able to sin.
They teach that sin their is no sin in Christ and we are in Christ, no one who sins is in Christ.
They teach that the "old man" was crucified at the cross with Jesus (which is true positionally) but in actual time we were not alive when Jesus was crucified. So, it seems to me that Jesus death was efficacious for all time and when we come to faith in Him we can know that He made us a new creation spiritually. But we still have this corrupted self and nature, which was crucified with Christ so that it has lost its power to enslave us in sin. We can walk in newness of life and can resist temptation by the power of grace.
They say that anyone who claims to be a believer who sins is not saved and a false Christian.
They say that sinless perfection makes us righteous and holy like Jesus was in His earthly life.
They say that since our sinful nature is dead, it no longer affects us in any way.
They say that only those who do not sin anymore will enter heaven.
I am sure I will find out more of what some teachers of sinless perfection teach as I study it more. While many of the Scriptures they cite speak about living free from sin, they ignore so many other Scriptures that tells us to fight against the sinful nature because it wars against the Spirit in us and those Scriptures that say that we have not attained perfection and our bodies have not received the redemption promised in the resurrection when we will be made incorruptible and unable to sin anymore like Jesus.
I was hoping you may be able to give some clarity on this. I am not sure if it is worthwhile to refute this doctrine with someone who believes it because of what I have read on other forums on this topic. Cont.
I have read some of the teachings of some preachers of sinless perfection or complete sanctification.
Some of what they say is truly appalling. Here are some of these false teachings.
1) If one reaches sinless perfection and then sins they will lose their salvation. (This is senseless. If one is perfectly sinless, then they would be unable to sin, so why would a preacher say that one who has reached this state can sin?)
2) They say that the blood of Jesus is within us and therefore keeps us from sinning. (I do not find this teaching in the Scriptures). The cleansing blood of Jesus is a forensic action. It is done from the outside (from God) into us (the receiver). We do not have ownership of the blood of Jesus. It is always His. When we come to belief in the gospel and put our faith in Jesus, Our sins are removed and we are cleansed because He shed His blood for us once and for all.
3) They say that our sinful nature was removed from us when one reaches sinless perfection. (This is true in the resurrection, but not so as long as we are in this "body of sin". We are told to put to death the sinful nature by walking int he Spirit but Paul clearly teaches that this is an ongoing slaying of sin in our life by the power the Holy Spirit supplies. We are to put to death the sinful nature in us by walking by the Spirit. Does anyone ever completely walk by the in the Spirit 24/7? If someone has reached sinless perfection are they now unable to sin, as some say, because the old man is obliterated by the blood of Jesus? If so, temptation would not cause a struggle within them because the sinful nature is dead. Yet, they do speak of temptation being a challenge they must fight against (which is true of any believer, not just the select "elite" who believe they are in a sinless state.)
4) They say that they no longer have a sinful nature because of this complete sanctification. (Yet their bodies are still againg and deteriorating towards death.
This comment thread is locked. Please enter a new comment below to start a new comment thread.
Note: Comment threads older than 2 months are automatically locked.
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
Report Comment
Which best represents the problem with the comment?