Hi Chris: I didn't understand your first question so I can't answer it and I disagree that being sinless now make me revert back to a body like in the Garden of Eden but I don't want to go into that in this discussion.
I am sinless. As He instructs me to be because He says in His word for us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect (Math. 5:48) and we are to be holy as He is holy. ( Leviticus 11: 44-45, Leviticus 19:2, Leviticus 20:7, 1 Peter 1: 15-16). People think these verses are just suggestions, or they don't count because they are in the OT. God's word from Genesis 1:1 to Rev. 12:22 all matter and tells us exactly how God wants us to live holy, righteous lives. I, of course, cannot be sinless as Jesus was because I was born into original sin and He wasn't. But when I was washed clean and made new by His divine blood, He rid me of the desire to sin. The devil tries to tempt me, but because I am without the nature to sin; the adamic nature, I have no desire to sin. I am also filled with the Holy Ghost, so I have all the weapons I need to resist him and as long as I keep these weapons, of prayer, reading and the study of His word, and fasting, new and at my side, I will be able to resist the temptation. It's when a christians gets lax or distracted or lazy that they can eventually fall back into sin. But if they want to make heaven they must do their first fruits (asking forgiveness for sin and asking that the desires for son be removed) again. These verses of perfection and holiness are exactly what God expects of us and He wouldn't tell us to be that way if He didn't make a way for us to be like this. I wasn't sinless until I gave my heart, soul and "old man" to Jesus. When I was saved, I not only prayed for my soul to be washed clean through His divine, forgiving blood, I also prayed and told the Lord that I didn't want to sin anymore and asked if He would take the desire to sin from me (the human nature I inherited from Adam.)
I knew you would accuse me of sinning because of my sarcasm. Let's suppose I did sin but since I don't believe sarcasm is a sin I go to bed without repenting and die immediately of a massive heart attack in my sleep. I died in sin. Will I go to heaven or hell? I know you won't answer this because you and Chris never answer my questions, especially with scripture. God Bless :)
Most of us would say that the way you replied sarcastically is a sin. And as believers, we are to speak to others about such sin (offenses) but do so gently with compassion.
Momsage, we are to confess our sin in such a case and we will receive forgiveness and cleansing as John says in 1 Hn. 1:9 and also, if we have sinned and we are not aware that we have sinned, we have Jesus as our Advocate interceding for us before the Father, presenting His righteousness and His shed blood and the penalty He paid for ALL of our sins as the basis for justification. This is the only way for any one to be justified and therefore not be condemned.
So, if you do not think that your sarcasm is a sin and were to go to bed and die suddenly, you will be saved because your faith for salvation is in Jesus, not in our own sinlessness or godly actions/obedience to God.
If you recognize that your sarcasm actually is sin because it is not holy speech, then I would hope that you would confess it to God and receive His mercy. If you should die before confessing an act that you know is a sin, then you are still saved because your faith for salvation is in Jesus alone. He saves us 100%, not because we are sinless, but because we were and are sinful in our fallen nature and need to be saved by Him every second of every day until we are resurrected.
Momsage, I do not mean any finger pointing at you in this matter. my intentions are for your good and to support you in your walk as a believer. So, please, take my comments as such.
John is talking about being born again. Verse 8 is a warning that if a person who declares they aren't a sinner that they are a liar. My poor mother believed that way. I suggest you read all of 1st, 2nd, 3rd John all the way through with a heartfelt prayer asking GOD to show you the truth. God Bless :)
That scripture that's crystal clear what it means and your response is that you'll pray for me to come to a different understanding of that verse rather than what it means? You said to read the rest of the chapter. Have you? Are you sure you aren't confusing being washed clean by Jesus (forgiven) with assuming you have no sin?
Let's analyze the context of this verse in great detail before and after verse 8.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
This is talking about Christians (Christ followers) because they walk in the light. It says if we walk in the light Jesus's blood cleanses us from sin, indicating that Christians have sin. If there was no sin in the first place nothing would need to be cleaned. It does not say its a one time thing either, then we're eternally perfect. The very next verse refutes that idea.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Someone who says they have no sin is a liar according to God's Word. You just said you were without sin. Could you be confusing being cleansed of sin with having no sin in the first place?
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This reiterates that we can have our sins forgiven and that we all sin, and this says we as Christians need to confess our sins.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
This states the important verse 8 again, saying anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar. Do you feel you are being honest by what you said about being sinless? These verses condemn what you said. But fortunately, like it says in v9 is says you can confess your sin and be cleansed if you are walking in the light verse 7.
Praise God for His Word and how clear and easy this is to apply to our lives.
Paul must be a hypocrite if he claims to be a sinner when in his letter before your "Paul was a sinner" verses he says that to believe we can continue in sin because of the Grace of God is forbidden by God. The few WORDS you always quote are taken out of 7,111 other words in this book. What does the rest of the book of Romans say about being sinners? I don't claim to be able to live without sin in myself. It is possible because, besides being saved from my sins, I am also sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost. It's this sanctification that killed and crucified the sin nature in me through the divine blood of Jesus Christ - that made my temple holy and the Holy Ghost was then able to enter in - that keeps me from sinning. Chris and GiGi never answer the legitimate questions I have presented to them asking about the soul after it dies with sin on it. They don't answer because they can't - there is no answer. You cling to a few choice verses that cause you to believe being human=being a sinner and it can't possible be any other way. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions: Since you believe we will always be guilty of some kind of sin every day, what will happen on the day the Lord returns? Sinners aren't going in the rapture - so who does - if we're all still sinning? GiGi accused me of sinning because I was sarcastic in one of my posts to Chris. Suppose I don't believe sarcasm is a sin and don't repent, but, just for arguments sake, it is a sin, so when I go to bed that night I die of a heat attack - I die with sin on my soul. Does my soul go to hell where souls with sin go or do I go to heaven? Scriptures tell us that God says our sin nature can be destroyed but you refuse to believe the blood of Jesus Christ is capable of destroying the sin nature completely and the Holy Ghost has the power to help keep us from sinning. Rightly dividing the word doesn't mean hanging your hat on a few choice words. Give me other scriptures. God Bless :)
Hello, you now wrote "I don't claim to be able to live without sin in myself."
Ok so the truth is finally out- now you admit to being a sinner like everyone else, but sanctified, also like other genuine Christ followers. That's no different than what most Christians believe, so were you trying to deceive us by hiding this before?
You write that because you're sanctified that "that keeps me from sinning." The first part is correct, but I don't believe your conclusion. That's not what Paul said, nor anywhere else in the Bible. Sanctified doesn't mean no sin ever happened. Do you truly believe that when you sin you never sinned?
You said you didn't like the verse I shared because the Bible is big with many other verses, but the same argument can be used against your position. Please share the verses that say when you sin you don't sin, because in my years of reading the Bible I've never come across that. There's one where God says he will remember sin no more, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Your other argument seemed to be that if you don't ask for forgiveness for every single thing- like if you forget and go to sleep then die- you do then you instantly go to hell. Most Christians don't believe that, so that's a straw man argument. It's also strange how I've heard this same phrase repeatedly through the years and wonder where it originates. Jesus says if we follow him grace covers us. Not a license to sin. Means we're genuine about it. But also we should indeed confess and ask forgiveness when we mess up, because a genuine follower would do that.
Paul said he struggles with sin (his flesh) even after becoming the top influential evangelist for Christ in world history. Every human struggles with this. Jesus was the only one who was perfect. I hope we weren't all baited into this discussion for other reasons, but God knows your heart. God bless.
Or maybe it's talking about people who won't listen to the gospel message because they don't believe they are sinners so they don't need Forgiveness from Jesus. My mother believed that way. A lot of people believe they are a good person and don't believe in sin.
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
As long as law of sin is in operation there shall be sin waiting to come in. Unclean spirits walking through dry places as mentioned in Matt.12:45 "Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." We are the wicked generation while we have received Jesus Christ as our Savior we are freed from condemnation.(Ro.8:1) Only when hell and death are sent to the outer darkness we can say the law of sin is forever gone from our midst. "That God may be all in all"(1 Co.15:28) is begun in our lives when we are dead to sin and to the world. This life is 'life abundant' and our former life shall no more be remembered. There is only one hope of calling and this is it.
Hello Momsage. My question that you referred to was: "You stated, "I never said I was as holy as Jesus, although I am sinless because of His divine blood and being fully sanctified. I was wondering whether you actually meant: 'because of Jesus' Sacrifice for you & your coming to Him for forgiveness, you are now both forgiven & made RIGHTEOUS before God' ".
What I was trying to find out, was whether your reference to 'your sinlessness' is better understood as 'your righteousness'. This I see as two completely different things. To be sinless obviously means that no sin can ever be found in a person; once that person commits even one sin (even a wrong thought or feeling as I gave in my personal experience), then that sin proves me a sinner & shows my imperfection as one still in the body of flesh, hence my ability to sin again (as much as I don't want to or plan to do).
Being "righteous", as I stated, "shows us our standing before Him & acceptance by Him because of Christ's Sacrifice." By virtue of Jesus' Death & God's acceptance of that Sacrifice for those who come to Him in repentance & faith, we are forgiven of our past sins, & made 'a new creation in Christ Jesus', with the Blood still efficacious when sin still overtakes us in the future.
God makes us righteous based on His Work alone, or else our righteousness, which are as "filthy rags" will get us nowhere with God. Thus we have a righteous acceptance & standing before God, but this position doesn't remove the sin nature we have & the ability to commit sin (I think you agree with this). Adam & Eve did not have this sin nature, for they were pure in their creation; Satan's work was to cause them to sin thereby relinquishing their pure nature for one marked with sin. And Jesus too faced Satan's onslaughts to cause Him to resemble fallen Adam rather than the sinless God. To Page 2.
For us to be sinless would mean that we are in Adam's state, pre-fall - and to get to that state will have to require us to be removed from this body of sinful flesh & from the sin nature that still resides therein. Christ's sacrifice only dealt with a spiritual re-birth (renewing) & not a physical re-birth. If a physical re-birth was also part of the deal, then yes, we would indeed be sinless - at least until Satan had another crack at us, for our spiritual demise. Maybe, our discussion should be on examples of what are errors/faults & what are sins. I think we'll learn that a lot of our errors are actually sins - things that were never a part of Jesus' 'sinless' life. Once we can agree on this, then we can see what 'being holy as He is holy' actually implies for us sinners saved by grace. Blessings.
Did you see all 3 posted comments I sent with this discussion? If you did, please read my last paragraph and then respond again in the way I asked. If you didn't then please find them so you can read my whole post and then PLEASE respond the way I asked. God Bless :)
Hello Momsage. My apologies, and No, I didn't see your other three posts at the time, since they were not joined to the one I responded to (i.e. the one addressed to me). I've now collated the others together & will respond.
As I read them, in support of your belief, you've used Romans chapter 6 and I'll try to deal with a few applicable verses.
Romans 6:2: "dead to sin". Death has always denoted 'separation', never extinction. Physical death: separation of spirit from body; Spiritual death: separation of a person from God; Eternal death: eternal separation from God. So 'death to sin' is a separation from the ruling power of sin in one's life - never an extinction of sin or even the capacity to sin.
Romans 6:6,7: "crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sinFor he that is dead is freed from sin". The Greek word for 'destroyed' (in this instance) is 'katargeo', which means, 'to render inoperative/impotent or abolish'. Or, in another way, 'that the body of sin might cease/be abolished as an instrument of sin'. What we once were, caring little about our sins & its repercussions, now "in Christ" & His Spirit within us, we no longer desire for that life of careless sinful living, we no longer want to be its servants, subjugated to it, but now serving the Lord & dealing with sin as our enemy & not our desirable companion. So "he that is dead (separated, by virtue of Christ's death & our dying unto Him), is freed from sin (not by not ever committing any sin, but freed (having been abolished) from its power, its destructive forces, & its damnable end). Onto Page 2.
Romans 6:11-14: in essence here, Paul urges the believers to 'calculate' ("reckon", from reading his earlier words) that you are 'dead' (separated) from sin; if separated, to no longer yield your bodies & minds as instruments of unrighteousness but unto righteousness. To do this, we must not let sin reign (have rulership/dominion) over us, but allow Christ to have full control. But when we do sin, does this mean that we are completely given over to sin & have left Christ (just as some might misuse God Grace, finding licence to sin because of it)? Again, Paul states (v16) that we are no longer servants to sin but unto God: we live unto God, we are His 'servants'. Even if afflicted by temptation & sin, this does not make us servants to sin (that sin becomes our master). Our bodies will always find some occasion to sin, but our longing & desire is to please Him Who gave His all for us, that He will reign in our lives & we should never place our sinful compulsions on our throne.
And so we go to Romans chapter 7. After Paul writes about the Law & its exposing of sin in man, he then writes about his personal battle with this & even the present struggle he has in his war with sin rearing itself in him coming against his new nature. But does Paul surrender to "the law of sin (that is found) in his body" (v23)? Some might say that he does, when he writes, 'with my mind I serve the Law of God, but in my flesh, the law of sin'. But knowing Paul's hatred of all things sinful & his urging his readers to think likewise, Paul could never get away from the fact that sin would always rear its ugly head in one form or another. That wasn't the issue with Paul - he accepted that was his lot, as is ours also - what mattered to him was that through the power of Christ in Him, he could now live unto God, with God on the Throne & no longer the sin that had control over him - the old Law gave him no respite from sin or healing. (This paragraph continued on Page 3).
Paul knew what his flesh was like, but he knew that he had the Power of God within him to deal with sin. Did this make him sinless? Do these verses in anyway suggest that Paul was preaching sinlessness? Does being diligent with sin & the Power of God within us make us sinless? It can never. The sin nature with its propensity to sin, of Adam, of Paul, & within each one of us will remain in us till our entire transformation in that coming day.
If you truly believe Momsage that you are sinless, then please heed the words & life of this apostle, that such a state is impossible in this life. Then maybe my earlier comment on what sin actually is becomes the real question before us; for there might be things that you consider as just errors in life that I, and some others, may consider as sin. I'm even very sensitive to even using corrupt Names of God/gods (e.g. Gosh, Golly, By Jove, etc.) - for me this is sin but to others, it may not be. Whatever is not of the Lord, not in His Character, & never expressed by Him, is sin; and unfortunately, as much as we can persevere in dealing with temptation & sin, we will fail the Lord at some time, in some point in our lives. And even committing that one 'tiniest' sin, proves that we are still sinners - to be sinless must mean that we can never (impossible to), to even commit that one sin. And that is not how I read & understand the Word of God & can never find anywhere that we are taught sinlessness now, rather, we should immediately deal with sin & being diligent in it & to the tactics (wiles) of the enemy & our flesh. I'll leave it here for now & hope I have answered you in detail. GBU.
The first one starts with "Of course, we can't be like Adam. The rest can actually be read in any order. Obviously the last one ends with my sign out. Sorry :)
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead (to sin) (my emphasis) and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
Gal 5:24
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
Heb 2:11
"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren," (How does gradual sanctification bring us one with God?
1 Peter 2:24
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being DEAD TO SIN, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
1 Peter 4: 1-
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."
Of course, we can't be like Adam was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned. But now, because of Adam's sin, mankind is born with original sin, human nature, the old man, but God removes that human nature, the desire to sin, with sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. That's why God's word commands us to be free of sin and then He made the way through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ for us to be free. His word says that the sin nature must be destroyed (*to put out of existence: kill) /crucified, (*to destroy the power of) so we can live a holy life.
*Miriam-Webster Dictionary
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
1 Thessalonians 4:1-5
"Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour."
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (This blessing was meant for the church, then and always.)
Acts 19: 1-7
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain DISCIPLES. He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve." These men weren't part of the upper room gathering or they would already been filled with the Holy Ghost.
John 8:11b
"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and SIN NO MORE and:
John 5:14, "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: SIN NO MORE, lest a worse thing come unto thee."
So what do the scriptures tell us that sin is?
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Thanks Momsage. Again, reading them & the Scriptures you've given in support, I can see that we won't find agreement when the Word tells us 'to be dead to sin, crucified with Him, etc'. Not only do such phrases tell us of our attitude to sin & pursuit of it, but also of our standing before God as righteous ones. So the question, 'should we then consider ourselves as sinless, striving to maintain that status, or should we consider ourselves as still sinners, saved, sanctified, accepted by God, awaiting that day when we will finally leave this body of sin & death?'
I know we understand 'sinlessness' differently. You stated at the outset, that "we can't be like Adam was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned", and it is here that we differ. I believe that Adam, before his fall was sinless (not a trace of sin there). For us to be sinless, means that we HAVE to also be in that state as Adam was, even as our Lord was and is. I'm sorry, I can't define 'sinlessness' in any other way. Just a speck of sin in us makes us sinners. Just as a minute drop of color in a swimming pool of clean water, adulterates that pool - you probably won't see the change in the pool's color or level of adulteration, but it's still there. And so while we're in these bodies, sin & it's propensity to do so, will always be with us. I think the only way to hold to the belief of sinlessness, would be to discount certain things we do each day as not being sinful - just human faults. But as I stated before, "Whatever is not of the Lord, not in His Character, & can't be expressed by Him, is sin". And I doubt if anyone can claim that they have now attained/regained, that Holy Image of God of being without sin.
Re: sending your comments in order. For multiple pages, reply to the most pertinent comment, post it & then wait for a few seconds until this Site's engine accepts it (so that your comment appears at the top). Then post your second page in reply to your first page - this keeps them in order.
You didn't explain with other scriptures why you disagree with me.
You didn't answer any of my questions.
Our thoughts on sinlessness or sinning every day are total opposites so one of us must be wrong and I don't care what you think except you are spilling it out all over this forum and I'm concerned about others. The title of sinning/christian seems to be a badge of honor these days, (anyone like me must be full of pride and haughtiness because, how dare I think I can live without grieving my Savior every day by sinning.)
I'm writing this at the end of the day. You say I must have sinned. Give me some ideas of what I must have done because I can't think of anything not even a fault. Maybe I should make something up like I use to do when I was a little Catholic girl so I would have something to confess to the priest so I could take communion.
How glad I am you've help me to not be deceived anymore, to think that God had created a beautiful way for His children to live WITHOUT sin in this wretched world. Really, I have to be realistic now, this can't possibly be true. I need to understand that what I believed was wrong because surly God isn't capable of removing the Adamic nature from our souls. I understand now that that is a bit too much for Him. Imagine being able to live with our sin-nature eradicated. I guess I'll just ignore all the scriptures that say we can like you did. I'm being sarcastic, of course. I guess this can be my one sin for the day so I'll ask God to forgive me for it. Thanks Chris you helped me be a sinning/christian. You helped me grieve my wonderful Savior today so I can claim the title of Sinning/Christian. NOT!
My heart really grieves for you and the danger you are in, especially, since you won't even address what I am saying with scriptures and/or answers to my legitimate questions. You don't because you can't. God bless :)
In this post to Chris you just exposed your own sin admittedly-that of being rudely sarcastic-so your doctrine of being sinless shows its flaws when it is well challenged by another believer who gives a reasoned response to what you avow as true.
I have kept out of this discussion because of our previous one on this topic, but your response to Chris reveals to al on this forum that you are not sinless, but a "sinning Christian" like all of us are who always are in need of the mercy and grace of God and the intercession of our Savior to cover us with His righteousness before the Father and cleansing us by the power of His shed blood.
God could have certainly taken away our sin nature in this life IF HE WILLED TO-but, in His wisdom, He chose to wait until the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of our bodies to do this for the eternal state.
believers can go back and forth with select Scriptures to "prove" their own view but it is wise to take in the whole of what Scriptures say concerning salvation, sanctification, sin, and grace to come to a MORE correct view.
As far as I know, the Scriptures do not speak of a Christian who does not sin after salvation nor use the term "sinning Christian" as you do. Most believers I know admit they sin at times and it grieves them, but, like Paul says in Rom. 7, it grieves them and they war against the sinful "flesh" the law of sin within himself and all believers because in their regenerated spiritual man they wish to not sin and hope to live in a godly way and increasingly be sanctified more and more by the Holy Spirit, being changed from glory to glory more and more into more Christlikeness, while at the same time confessing sin when it occurs knowing the God forgives us on account of what Jesus provides for us (His righteousness and sacrifice) not on anything we do.
Hello Momsage. Not sure where you're coming from or going with this - but you are entitled to form your impression about me, especially as you seem to have gleaned from my comments, that I am giving licence to all on this forum to continue committing sin! If that's what you've understood, then I do feel sad that our extended discussion has brought on such a determination. Maybe you should re-read my other comments on this very important matter & especially, my other reference to the Apostle Paul who declared that he not only faced the ongoing battle with sin but also lived at times, in defeat.
You had earlier quoted from Romans chapter 6, and to this I gave some detail on specific verses. Then I wrote about Paul & his struggle (in Romans chapter 7). Did you read this chapter? I received no comments from you as to how you can believe that Paul was sinless (as you claim you are sinless), when he finally cried out in Romans 7:24,25: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin". This is not Paul talking only about his life as a Jew & a teacher of the Law (without Christ), but of his life now as he struggles with desiring total obedience to God & the Law of Sin which is IN HIS MEMBERS (v23). Why should he write, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Was he concerned that his physical body was deteriorating & in the throes of death, or was he deeply concerned about the sin nature & sin that surfaced in his life? Yet, he found that his deliverance from this dilemma of the old nature vs the new nature was only found in Christ Jesus. His heart & mind was only God-ward - but his body inclined to sin because of the sin nature within. This paragraph continues on Page 2.
So Romans 7:15-17 comes to the fore, where Paul shares his hatred for sin, yet the sin nature surfaces causing him to trip up & sin. I know that I can never be like Jesus, i.e. without a sin nature, but who am I to believe that I can be better than that great apostle who lived such a fully Christ-centered life, even to the point of suffering & martyrdom.
I intended to respond to the Scriptures you gave, but seeing that you've failed to respond to my earlier brief exegete on Romans 6 (which you shared), I believed that you were more interested in airing your beliefs (with supporting Scriptures) rather than towards scriptural examination. It's one thing to expect comment on the Scriptures one provides, but when there's no rebuttal or agreement provided in return, then one is left curious & amazed to the person's intention in all this. So, I'll leave it here Momsage & may the Lord lead you into His Truth & the reality of what sin really is - not simply faults or failings in this life. GBU
1 John 1:10 says "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Someone claiming they haven't sinned is a sin; it's calling God a liar.
Either way, people sin, including you. No one in this forum believes you haven't sinned in your life. We should strive to be perfect and try very hard to avoid sin as Jesus challenged us to do, and that's awesome if we can make it through a day without any knowledge of wrongdoing. But we have a sinful nature and with God's rules it's extremely easy to sin. And I think we might sin and not even be aware of it.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28 KJV
I believe this means the same to a man or woman. Have you never once in your life looked at someone with lust? Never coveted? Never lied even in the smallest way? Never gluttony- overeating or not taking care your body? Always 100% respected God's holy temple? Anger? Loving others? Can anyone go an entire week or month without doing one of these?
Do you believe you've been perfect your whole life like Jesus, or do you just mean that since being a Christian you aren't aware of any recent sin?
My comment is intended to be helpful to you. I think I would do you a disservice to not challenge your assumption. God bless
I am sinless. As He instructs me to be because He says in His word for us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect (Math. 5:48) and we are to be holy as He is holy. ( Leviticus 11: 44-45, Leviticus 19:2, Leviticus 20:7, 1 Peter 1: 15-16). People think these verses are just suggestions, or they don't count because they are in the OT. God's word from Genesis 1:1 to Rev. 12:22 all matter and tells us exactly how God wants us to live holy, righteous lives. I, of course, cannot be sinless as Jesus was because I was born into original sin and He wasn't. But when I was washed clean and made new by His divine blood, He rid me of the desire to sin. The devil tries to tempt me, but because I am without the nature to sin; the adamic nature, I have no desire to sin. I am also filled with the Holy Ghost, so I have all the weapons I need to resist him and as long as I keep these weapons, of prayer, reading and the study of His word, and fasting, new and at my side, I will be able to resist the temptation. It's when a christians gets lax or distracted or lazy that they can eventually fall back into sin. But if they want to make heaven they must do their first fruits (asking forgiveness for sin and asking that the desires for son be removed) again. These verses of perfection and holiness are exactly what God expects of us and He wouldn't tell us to be that way if He didn't make a way for us to be like this. I wasn't sinless until I gave my heart, soul and "old man" to Jesus. When I was saved, I not only prayed for my soul to be washed clean through His divine, forgiving blood, I also prayed and told the Lord that I didn't want to sin anymore and asked if He would take the desire to sin from me (the human nature I inherited from Adam.)
Most of us would say that the way you replied sarcastically is a sin. And as believers, we are to speak to others about such sin (offenses) but do so gently with compassion.
Momsage, we are to confess our sin in such a case and we will receive forgiveness and cleansing as John says in 1 Hn. 1:9 and also, if we have sinned and we are not aware that we have sinned, we have Jesus as our Advocate interceding for us before the Father, presenting His righteousness and His shed blood and the penalty He paid for ALL of our sins as the basis for justification. This is the only way for any one to be justified and therefore not be condemned.
So, if you do not think that your sarcasm is a sin and were to go to bed and die suddenly, you will be saved because your faith for salvation is in Jesus, not in our own sinlessness or godly actions/obedience to God.
If you recognize that your sarcasm actually is sin because it is not holy speech, then I would hope that you would confess it to God and receive His mercy. If you should die before confessing an act that you know is a sin, then you are still saved because your faith for salvation is in Jesus alone. He saves us 100%, not because we are sinless, but because we were and are sinful in our fallen nature and need to be saved by Him every second of every day until we are resurrected.
Momsage, I do not mean any finger pointing at you in this matter. my intentions are for your good and to support you in your walk as a believer. So, please, take my comments as such.
This verse is 100% clear what it means. It's calling someone deceived and dishonest if they say they are without sin.
That scripture that's crystal clear what it means and your response is that you'll pray for me to come to a different understanding of that verse rather than what it means? You said to read the rest of the chapter. Have you? Are you sure you aren't confusing being washed clean by Jesus (forgiven) with assuming you have no sin?
Let's analyze the context of this verse in great detail before and after verse 8.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
This is talking about Christians (Christ followers) because they walk in the light. It says if we walk in the light Jesus's blood cleanses us from sin, indicating that Christians have sin. If there was no sin in the first place nothing would need to be cleaned. It does not say its a one time thing either, then we're eternally perfect. The very next verse refutes that idea.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Someone who says they have no sin is a liar according to God's Word. You just said you were without sin. Could you be confusing being cleansed of sin with having no sin in the first place?
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This reiterates that we can have our sins forgiven and that we all sin, and this says we as Christians need to confess our sins.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
This states the important verse 8 again, saying anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar. Do you feel you are being honest by what you said about being sinless? These verses condemn what you said. But fortunately, like it says in v9 is says you can confess your sin and be cleansed if you are walking in the light verse 7.
Praise God for His Word and how clear and easy this is to apply to our lives.
Ok so the truth is finally out- now you admit to being a sinner like everyone else, but sanctified, also like other genuine Christ followers. That's no different than what most Christians believe, so were you trying to deceive us by hiding this before?
You write that because you're sanctified that "that keeps me from sinning." The first part is correct, but I don't believe your conclusion. That's not what Paul said, nor anywhere else in the Bible. Sanctified doesn't mean no sin ever happened. Do you truly believe that when you sin you never sinned?
You said you didn't like the verse I shared because the Bible is big with many other verses, but the same argument can be used against your position. Please share the verses that say when you sin you don't sin, because in my years of reading the Bible I've never come across that. There's one where God says he will remember sin no more, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Your other argument seemed to be that if you don't ask for forgiveness for every single thing- like if you forget and go to sleep then die- you do then you instantly go to hell. Most Christians don't believe that, so that's a straw man argument. It's also strange how I've heard this same phrase repeatedly through the years and wonder where it originates. Jesus says if we follow him grace covers us. Not a license to sin. Means we're genuine about it. But also we should indeed confess and ask forgiveness when we mess up, because a genuine follower would do that.
Paul said he struggles with sin (his flesh) even after becoming the top influential evangelist for Christ in world history. Every human struggles with this. Jesus was the only one who was perfect. I hope we weren't all baited into this discussion for other reasons, but God knows your heart. God bless.
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
God Bless :)
As long as law of sin is in operation there shall be sin waiting to come in. Unclean spirits walking through dry places as mentioned in Matt.12:45 "Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." We are the wicked generation while we have received Jesus Christ as our Savior we are freed from condemnation.(Ro.8:1) Only when hell and death are sent to the outer darkness we can say the law of sin is forever gone from our midst. "That God may be all in all"(1 Co.15:28) is begun in our lives when we are dead to sin and to the world. This life is 'life abundant' and our former life shall no more be remembered. There is only one hope of calling and this is it.
Hello Momsage. My question that you referred to was: "You stated, "I never said I was as holy as Jesus, although I am sinless because of His divine blood and being fully sanctified. I was wondering whether you actually meant: 'because of Jesus' Sacrifice for you & your coming to Him for forgiveness, you are now both forgiven & made RIGHTEOUS before God' ".
What I was trying to find out, was whether your reference to 'your sinlessness' is better understood as 'your righteousness'. This I see as two completely different things. To be sinless obviously means that no sin can ever be found in a person; once that person commits even one sin (even a wrong thought or feeling as I gave in my personal experience), then that sin proves me a sinner & shows my imperfection as one still in the body of flesh, hence my ability to sin again (as much as I don't want to or plan to do).
Being "righteous", as I stated, "shows us our standing before Him & acceptance by Him because of Christ's Sacrifice." By virtue of Jesus' Death & God's acceptance of that Sacrifice for those who come to Him in repentance & faith, we are forgiven of our past sins, & made 'a new creation in Christ Jesus', with the Blood still efficacious when sin still overtakes us in the future.
God makes us righteous based on His Work alone, or else our righteousness, which are as "filthy rags" will get us nowhere with God. Thus we have a righteous acceptance & standing before God, but this position doesn't remove the sin nature we have & the ability to commit sin (I think you agree with this). Adam & Eve did not have this sin nature, for they were pure in their creation; Satan's work was to cause them to sin thereby relinquishing their pure nature for one marked with sin. And Jesus too faced Satan's onslaughts to cause Him to resemble fallen Adam rather than the sinless God. To Page 2.
For us to be sinless would mean that we are in Adam's state, pre-fall - and to get to that state will have to require us to be removed from this body of sinful flesh & from the sin nature that still resides therein. Christ's sacrifice only dealt with a spiritual re-birth (renewing) & not a physical re-birth. If a physical re-birth was also part of the deal, then yes, we would indeed be sinless - at least until Satan had another crack at us, for our spiritual demise. Maybe, our discussion should be on examples of what are errors/faults & what are sins. I think we'll learn that a lot of our errors are actually sins - things that were never a part of Jesus' 'sinless' life. Once we can agree on this, then we can see what 'being holy as He is holy' actually implies for us sinners saved by grace. Blessings.
Hello Momsage. My apologies, and No, I didn't see your other three posts at the time, since they were not joined to the one I responded to (i.e. the one addressed to me). I've now collated the others together & will respond.
As I read them, in support of your belief, you've used Romans chapter 6 and I'll try to deal with a few applicable verses.
Romans 6:2: "dead to sin". Death has always denoted 'separation', never extinction. Physical death: separation of spirit from body; Spiritual death: separation of a person from God; Eternal death: eternal separation from God. So 'death to sin' is a separation from the ruling power of sin in one's life - never an extinction of sin or even the capacity to sin.
Romans 6:6,7: "crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sinFor he that is dead is freed from sin". The Greek word for 'destroyed' (in this instance) is 'katargeo', which means, 'to render inoperative/impotent or abolish'. Or, in another way, 'that the body of sin might cease/be abolished as an instrument of sin'. What we once were, caring little about our sins & its repercussions, now "in Christ" & His Spirit within us, we no longer desire for that life of careless sinful living, we no longer want to be its servants, subjugated to it, but now serving the Lord & dealing with sin as our enemy & not our desirable companion. So "he that is dead (separated, by virtue of Christ's death & our dying unto Him), is freed from sin (not by not ever committing any sin, but freed (having been abolished) from its power, its destructive forces, & its damnable end). Onto Page 2.
Romans 6:11-14: in essence here, Paul urges the believers to 'calculate' ("reckon", from reading his earlier words) that you are 'dead' (separated) from sin; if separated, to no longer yield your bodies & minds as instruments of unrighteousness but unto righteousness. To do this, we must not let sin reign (have rulership/dominion) over us, but allow Christ to have full control. But when we do sin, does this mean that we are completely given over to sin & have left Christ (just as some might misuse God Grace, finding licence to sin because of it)? Again, Paul states (v16) that we are no longer servants to sin but unto God: we live unto God, we are His 'servants'. Even if afflicted by temptation & sin, this does not make us servants to sin (that sin becomes our master). Our bodies will always find some occasion to sin, but our longing & desire is to please Him Who gave His all for us, that He will reign in our lives & we should never place our sinful compulsions on our throne.
And so we go to Romans chapter 7. After Paul writes about the Law & its exposing of sin in man, he then writes about his personal battle with this & even the present struggle he has in his war with sin rearing itself in him coming against his new nature. But does Paul surrender to "the law of sin (that is found) in his body" (v23)? Some might say that he does, when he writes, 'with my mind I serve the Law of God, but in my flesh, the law of sin'. But knowing Paul's hatred of all things sinful & his urging his readers to think likewise, Paul could never get away from the fact that sin would always rear its ugly head in one form or another. That wasn't the issue with Paul - he accepted that was his lot, as is ours also - what mattered to him was that through the power of Christ in Him, he could now live unto God, with God on the Throne & no longer the sin that had control over him - the old Law gave him no respite from sin or healing. (This paragraph continued on Page 3).
Paul knew what his flesh was like, but he knew that he had the Power of God within him to deal with sin. Did this make him sinless? Do these verses in anyway suggest that Paul was preaching sinlessness? Does being diligent with sin & the Power of God within us make us sinless? It can never. The sin nature with its propensity to sin, of Adam, of Paul, & within each one of us will remain in us till our entire transformation in that coming day.
If you truly believe Momsage that you are sinless, then please heed the words & life of this apostle, that such a state is impossible in this life. Then maybe my earlier comment on what sin actually is becomes the real question before us; for there might be things that you consider as just errors in life that I, and some others, may consider as sin. I'm even very sensitive to even using corrupt Names of God/gods (e.g. Gosh, Golly, By Jove, etc.) - for me this is sin but to others, it may not be. Whatever is not of the Lord, not in His Character, & never expressed by Him, is sin; and unfortunately, as much as we can persevere in dealing with temptation & sin, we will fail the Lord at some time, in some point in our lives. And even committing that one 'tiniest' sin, proves that we are still sinners - to be sinless must mean that we can never (impossible to), to even commit that one sin. And that is not how I read & understand the Word of God & can never find anywhere that we are taught sinlessness now, rather, we should immediately deal with sin & being diligent in it & to the tactics (wiles) of the enemy & our flesh. I'll leave it here for now & hope I have answered you in detail. GBU.
God Bless :)
1 Corinthians 3: 16-17
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Ephesians 4:23
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:9
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: "
2 Corinthians: 517
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Colossians 3:9-10
"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
God Bless :)
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead (to sin) (my emphasis) and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
Gal 5:24
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
Heb 2:11
"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren," (How does gradual sanctification bring us one with God?
1 Peter 2:24
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being DEAD TO SIN, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
1 Peter 4: 1-
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."
*Miriam-Webster Dictionary
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
1 Thessalonians 4:1-5
"Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour."
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (This blessing was meant for the church, then and always.)
Acts 19: 1-7
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain DISCIPLES. He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve." These men weren't part of the upper room gathering or they would already been filled with the Holy Ghost.
John 8:11b
"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and SIN NO MORE and:
John 5:14, "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: SIN NO MORE, lest a worse thing come unto thee."
So what do the scriptures tell us that sin is?
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
I know we understand 'sinlessness' differently. You stated at the outset, that "we can't be like Adam was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned", and it is here that we differ. I believe that Adam, before his fall was sinless (not a trace of sin there). For us to be sinless, means that we HAVE to also be in that state as Adam was, even as our Lord was and is. I'm sorry, I can't define 'sinlessness' in any other way. Just a speck of sin in us makes us sinners. Just as a minute drop of color in a swimming pool of clean water, adulterates that pool - you probably won't see the change in the pool's color or level of adulteration, but it's still there. And so while we're in these bodies, sin & it's propensity to do so, will always be with us. I think the only way to hold to the belief of sinlessness, would be to discount certain things we do each day as not being sinful - just human faults. But as I stated before, "Whatever is not of the Lord, not in His Character, & can't be expressed by Him, is sin". And I doubt if anyone can claim that they have now attained/regained, that Holy Image of God of being without sin.
Re: sending your comments in order. For multiple pages, reply to the most pertinent comment, post it & then wait for a few seconds until this Site's engine accepts it (so that your comment appears at the top). Then post your second page in reply to your first page - this keeps them in order.
You didn't answer any of my questions.
Our thoughts on sinlessness or sinning every day are total opposites so one of us must be wrong and I don't care what you think except you are spilling it out all over this forum and I'm concerned about others. The title of sinning/christian seems to be a badge of honor these days, (anyone like me must be full of pride and haughtiness because, how dare I think I can live without grieving my Savior every day by sinning.)
I'm writing this at the end of the day. You say I must have sinned. Give me some ideas of what I must have done because I can't think of anything not even a fault. Maybe I should make something up like I use to do when I was a little Catholic girl so I would have something to confess to the priest so I could take communion.
How glad I am you've help me to not be deceived anymore, to think that God had created a beautiful way for His children to live WITHOUT sin in this wretched world. Really, I have to be realistic now, this can't possibly be true. I need to understand that what I believed was wrong because surly God isn't capable of removing the Adamic nature from our souls. I understand now that that is a bit too much for Him. Imagine being able to live with our sin-nature eradicated. I guess I'll just ignore all the scriptures that say we can like you did. I'm being sarcastic, of course. I guess this can be my one sin for the day so I'll ask God to forgive me for it. Thanks Chris you helped me be a sinning/christian. You helped me grieve my wonderful Savior today so I can claim the title of Sinning/Christian. NOT!
My heart really grieves for you and the danger you are in, especially, since you won't even address what I am saying with scriptures and/or answers to my legitimate questions. You don't because you can't. God bless :)
In this post to Chris you just exposed your own sin admittedly-that of being rudely sarcastic-so your doctrine of being sinless shows its flaws when it is well challenged by another believer who gives a reasoned response to what you avow as true.
I have kept out of this discussion because of our previous one on this topic, but your response to Chris reveals to al on this forum that you are not sinless, but a "sinning Christian" like all of us are who always are in need of the mercy and grace of God and the intercession of our Savior to cover us with His righteousness before the Father and cleansing us by the power of His shed blood.
God could have certainly taken away our sin nature in this life IF HE WILLED TO-but, in His wisdom, He chose to wait until the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of our bodies to do this for the eternal state.
believers can go back and forth with select Scriptures to "prove" their own view but it is wise to take in the whole of what Scriptures say concerning salvation, sanctification, sin, and grace to come to a MORE correct view.
As far as I know, the Scriptures do not speak of a Christian who does not sin after salvation nor use the term "sinning Christian" as you do. Most believers I know admit they sin at times and it grieves them, but, like Paul says in Rom. 7, it grieves them and they war against the sinful "flesh" the law of sin within himself and all believers because in their regenerated spiritual man they wish to not sin and hope to live in a godly way and increasingly be sanctified more and more by the Holy Spirit, being changed from glory to glory more and more into more Christlikeness, while at the same time confessing sin when it occurs knowing the God forgives us on account of what Jesus provides for us (His righteousness and sacrifice) not on anything we do.
Momsage, I wish you a blessed day today.
Hello Momsage. Not sure where you're coming from or going with this - but you are entitled to form your impression about me, especially as you seem to have gleaned from my comments, that I am giving licence to all on this forum to continue committing sin! If that's what you've understood, then I do feel sad that our extended discussion has brought on such a determination. Maybe you should re-read my other comments on this very important matter & especially, my other reference to the Apostle Paul who declared that he not only faced the ongoing battle with sin but also lived at times, in defeat.
You had earlier quoted from Romans chapter 6, and to this I gave some detail on specific verses. Then I wrote about Paul & his struggle (in Romans chapter 7). Did you read this chapter? I received no comments from you as to how you can believe that Paul was sinless (as you claim you are sinless), when he finally cried out in Romans 7:24,25: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin". This is not Paul talking only about his life as a Jew & a teacher of the Law (without Christ), but of his life now as he struggles with desiring total obedience to God & the Law of Sin which is IN HIS MEMBERS (v23). Why should he write, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Was he concerned that his physical body was deteriorating & in the throes of death, or was he deeply concerned about the sin nature & sin that surfaced in his life? Yet, he found that his deliverance from this dilemma of the old nature vs the new nature was only found in Christ Jesus. His heart & mind was only God-ward - but his body inclined to sin because of the sin nature within. This paragraph continues on Page 2.
So Romans 7:15-17 comes to the fore, where Paul shares his hatred for sin, yet the sin nature surfaces causing him to trip up & sin. I know that I can never be like Jesus, i.e. without a sin nature, but who am I to believe that I can be better than that great apostle who lived such a fully Christ-centered life, even to the point of suffering & martyrdom.
I intended to respond to the Scriptures you gave, but seeing that you've failed to respond to my earlier brief exegete on Romans 6 (which you shared), I believed that you were more interested in airing your beliefs (with supporting Scriptures) rather than towards scriptural examination. It's one thing to expect comment on the Scriptures one provides, but when there's no rebuttal or agreement provided in return, then one is left curious & amazed to the person's intention in all this. So, I'll leave it here Momsage & may the Lord lead you into His Truth & the reality of what sin really is - not simply faults or failings in this life. GBU
1 John 1:10 says "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Someone claiming they haven't sinned is a sin; it's calling God a liar.
Either way, people sin, including you. No one in this forum believes you haven't sinned in your life. We should strive to be perfect and try very hard to avoid sin as Jesus challenged us to do, and that's awesome if we can make it through a day without any knowledge of wrongdoing. But we have a sinful nature and with God's rules it's extremely easy to sin. And I think we might sin and not even be aware of it.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28 KJV
I believe this means the same to a man or woman. Have you never once in your life looked at someone with lust? Never coveted? Never lied even in the smallest way? Never gluttony- overeating or not taking care your body? Always 100% respected God's holy temple? Anger? Loving others? Can anyone go an entire week or month without doing one of these?
Do you believe you've been perfect your whole life like Jesus, or do you just mean that since being a Christian you aren't aware of any recent sin?
My comment is intended to be helpful to you. I think I would do you a disservice to not challenge your assumption. God bless
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