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Hello MotherMac. I'm unsure whether you're addressing someone specifically here, or who the "two (?) clouds of witnesses' might be you're referring to, but just to throw an answer in here: the 'great cloud of witnesses' (as referred to in Hebrews 12:1), are those faithful witnesses mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11.
So when I read Hebrews 12:1, I always get the sense that since those who have gone on way before us & stand in the Presence of God, their lives & faithfulness, in spite of many odds against them, should also be an impetus for us to 'run the race of Christian living & testimony'; a race, not who gets there first, but one that requires patience & endurance reaching the finishing line & the prize - just as those of old did.
But the Hebrews writer doesn't want us to only focus on those saints of old, but to look to Jesus, the Author & Finisher of our Faith (the One Who completed and perfected our faith before God): for He alone is the reason for our salvation, our power & joy to live this life, & Who will receive us into Glory at the appointed time. That 'cloud of witnesses' might have had a good testimony for us to be encouraged to do likewise, but only Jesus could author saving faith & perfect it & us before God by virtue of His great Sacrifice for us & the supreme example He set before us in godly living.
MotherMac, I've just copied your response (hereunder) into this thread, or else our comments will be all over the place. You just need to hit the Reply button at the end of the comment you're replying to, rather than starting a new comment. So you wrote:
"Thank you for your reply. I certainly do want to avoid leading someone wrong. God forbid. In chapter 12, verse 1, I am reading
we also are Those words speaks to me as the time in which he was living."
When the writer of this letter was sent to the Hebrews who resided outside of Israel (it's been suggested, Italy, or thereabouts), he was certainly encouraging them to keep their eyes set on Jesus, patiently running the race of faith in Christ. So yes, as the Hebrews in Italy (?) were being encouraged, so are we to be when reading it.
But if thinking of 'the carnal view or divine view of Christ', apart from verse 2, where the writer encourages us to only look to 'Jesus, the Author & Finisher of our faith', I can't see where one sees Christ from a carnal viewpoint. But if you're thinking that in verse 1, the cloud of witnesses (as those mentioned in chapter 11), were without knowledge of a coming Divine Christ, their Redeemer, then their view was according to the knowledge given them. But if their love for God & faith in Him to keep & deliver them held strong, the merits of the Coming One's Sacrifice would avail for them as well. In other words, their ignorance (carnal view?) of what was to come, would not preclude them from sharing in what we post-Cross have received through Jesus' Sacrifice for our sins. So, I'm unsure whether I've really understood your thoughts here, so I apologize if I haven't & thus your unsatisfied reading of all this.
Thanks for your consideration of my reply MotherMac. At least we are referring to the same passage in Hebrews. You wrote that you saw in Hebrews 12:1 a reference to both 'a carnal & divine view of Christ'. I re-looked at the verse & still unable to fit such views of Christ in there.
If you wish, could you expand your thoughts a little on your statement, so we might consider the verse in a different way? There is always the danger of going too far by searching for a deeper or hidden meaning, making the verse say something not intended; and to this we must be careful or else we do great disservice to God's Word, to our own understanding of it, & misdirecting others. So I would be very keen to hear your thoughts on this so that I can try to search for something that you're reading or sensing in there. Thank you.
Are you talking about the carnal
view ofChrist and the Devine view
of Christ? Am I mixed up?
So when I read Hebrews 12:1, I always get the sense that since those who have gone on way before us & stand in the Presence of God, their lives & faithfulness, in spite of many odds against them, should also be an impetus for us to 'run the race of Christian living & testimony'; a race, not who gets there first, but one that requires patience & endurance reaching the finishing line & the prize - just as those of old did.
But the Hebrews writer doesn't want us to only focus on those saints of old, but to look to Jesus, the Author & Finisher of our Faith (the One Who completed and perfected our faith before God): for He alone is the reason for our salvation, our power & joy to live this life, & Who will receive us into Glory at the appointed time. That 'cloud of witnesses' might have had a good testimony for us to be encouraged to do likewise, but only Jesus could author saving faith & perfect it & us before God by virtue of His great Sacrifice for us & the supreme example He set before us in godly living.
It was inspiring and helpful.
However, I feel there is something
deeper than what has already been said.
"Thank you for your reply. I certainly do want to avoid leading someone wrong. God forbid. In chapter 12, verse 1, I am reading
we also are Those words speaks to me as the time in which he was living."
When the writer of this letter was sent to the Hebrews who resided outside of Israel (it's been suggested, Italy, or thereabouts), he was certainly encouraging them to keep their eyes set on Jesus, patiently running the race of faith in Christ. So yes, as the Hebrews in Italy (?) were being encouraged, so are we to be when reading it.
But if thinking of 'the carnal view or divine view of Christ', apart from verse 2, where the writer encourages us to only look to 'Jesus, the Author & Finisher of our faith', I can't see where one sees Christ from a carnal viewpoint. But if you're thinking that in verse 1, the cloud of witnesses (as those mentioned in chapter 11), were without knowledge of a coming Divine Christ, their Redeemer, then their view was according to the knowledge given them. But if their love for God & faith in Him to keep & deliver them held strong, the merits of the Coming One's Sacrifice would avail for them as well. In other words, their ignorance (carnal view?) of what was to come, would not preclude them from sharing in what we post-Cross have received through Jesus' Sacrifice for our sins. So, I'm unsure whether I've really understood your thoughts here, so I apologize if I haven't & thus your unsatisfied reading of all this.
If you wish, could you expand your thoughts a little on your statement, so we might consider the verse in a different way? There is always the danger of going too far by searching for a deeper or hidden meaning, making the verse say something not intended; and to this we must be careful or else we do great disservice to God's Word, to our own understanding of it, & misdirecting others. So I would be very keen to hear your thoughts on this so that I can try to search for something that you're reading or sensing in there. Thank you.
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