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Isn't believing in the Trinity just simply believing in God? The Trinity is God so how can you be saved and not believe in the Trinity. You can't separate the Trinity and God, they are one and the same thing. Which part of the Trinity do you not believe in and can still be saved? The Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost? It's amazing to me that the idea that you can be saved and not believe that the Trinity/God are the same thing. ????
To believe in the Trinity is to believe in God. There is no salvation if you don't believe in God. Why you don't want to believe in the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is beyond me. But I know you have done a lot of discussions on this. I haven't seen any of it but I don't particularly want to discuss it. I doubt I will have anything to say you that you haven't already heard.
Many believe as you do in the Trinity, as you say, "The Trinity is God so how can you be saved and not believe in the Trinity". The Trinity was developed almost 400 years after Jesus ascended to heaven. This is not to debate. I think most on this site know my understanding of this.
Just a thought, to eliminate any doubt, if we must believe God is a Triune God to receive salvation shouldn't there be Scripture telling us this? You may have found where John, Peter, Paul, or any other apostles have written and told us we must believe in the Trinity for salvation, but I have not found it.
Hello Ronald: I want to apologize for the way I replied to your post about the Trinity. It was a little to straightforward. I know I implied you weren't saved and I am truly sorry about that. I have read some more of your postings now and understand a little better what you believe and I can see you love The Lord and are a brother.
I believe the word "Trinity" to describe the teaching of God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost as God three in one wasn't used until about 400AD but the teaching is bibical. Honest question, and you may have been asked this already, but it seems a big part of your belief is because the word Trinity isn't specifically spoken in the scriptures that you believe it isn't true but what about the word "rapture"? Do you believe in it? I'm not trying to deviate from this discussion. I'm just comparing what I believe in that the word Trinity may not be in the bible but, I believe, the teaching truly is. God Bless :)
You did not offend me at all, this subject is hard, and feelings go deep, and many will not even discuss it because it has been a foundation of belief for so many years, and as Giannis said there are verses in the bible that can support different understandings. I am not one to say it is because the word Trinity is not in the Bible. I feel if someone says it is not true because the word Trinity is not in the Bible falls short and does not support why they do not believe in the Trinity.
Same as the rapture, another subject that has been discussed here before. I also do not believe in how it is taught but it is not because the word rapture is not in the Bible. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it is caught up from the Greek word harpazo meaning to seize, catch up, snatch away. This can be translated into English as rapture which has the same meaning as harpazo. It is not the word it is what is taught that will happen.
Hi Ronald: oops, misunderstood you again. What I meant was that the word for "God three in one" didn't appear in Christian dialog until about 400AD but the teaching has always been biblical but what you meant is that the teaching isn't biblical at all. Is that right?
Since I am new to this discussion would you be willing to explain what your belief is? I hesitate to ask because I know this is a repeat for you but I'd really like to know. If you'd rather not, I understand. Maybe we can go on to another discussion. I enjoy reading your comments and would like to continue in discussions with you.
Neither the Spirit has told us how to breathe but we do it naturally through our nostrils. When God breathed through the nostrils of man we understand God a Spirit made us a living soul. The soul establishes His authority.There is more to life than existing.
We have body spirit and soul which corresponds with the 'us' in God's commandment "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."(Ge.1:26) Likeness gives a body, spirit and soul which is after the similitude existing in heaven.
"A body hast thou prepared me"(He.10:5) a glorious body for the Son consequently must hold true for us, is it not? It is to this spiritual body St Paul refers,"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."(2 Co.5:1) Glory of body is as what God gives. Adam was earthy, since from the ground he was formed. For those have born again as a new creation, the body is glorious as that of Christ who is the Lord of heaven. Thus glory of body differs as those of earth and of heaven differs.
We breathe merely as natural man. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. So as new creation we breathe as indwelling Spirit equipped us, seeking the perfect will of God. It is a matter of faith. Either you breathe so your soul shall escape condemnation when called to account Or you breathe till you body hit the dust, awaiting judgment.
Just me, seems there are fewer discussions lately on this site and Momsage's post suggested discussion. My understanding of discussions is brothers and sisters sharing their understanding of a subject not to belittle or to prove one as being wrong, but by sharing our understanding of a subject that will encourage each other to study in prayer for the truth.
What is faith? We see in Hebrews 11:1,6 We also have Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We are to have faith but our faith cannot be based on the word of man where we can be deceived and taken out of the way. Our faith must come from the word of God guided by His Spirit and His word is the Holy Scripture, He has given us.
This one subject is based on the word of man, nowhere in Scripture does it tell us we must believe or have faith in a triune God, but the opposite, Deuteronomy 6:4Mark 12:291 Timothy 2:5, and many more. "God made us a living soul" Soul is the Hebrew word nephesh, a living being, any living being, every air-breathing creature is a nephesh, a living being/soul.
Genesis 1:26 many apply the Trinity to this verse but then we must ignore verse 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This could also easily be first-person plural, like mom says, let us make tacos and then she is the one who makes the tacos. If we lived before 489 AD, before the Trinity doctrine was made the foundational belief of Christianity, and the punishment of heresy, how would we take this verse?
If we walk in the world we will perish, if we walk in the Spirit our faith is in Jesus and our hope is as Jesus was resurrected in His glorified body so we shall also be resurrected in our glorified body into eternal life with Him.
" Genesis 1:26 many apply the Trinity to this verse but then we must ignore verse 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This could also easily be first-person plural." No it is not. "
I, God changeth not"(Mal.3:6) Neither does He give his glory to another. Ge.1: 27 says " So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Ge. 1 refers to the MOU or the everlasting covenant between God the Father and God the Son. Thus the Will of God in v.26 and the Son completes it. "It was so" at the end of each day is as though the Son in agreement.(v.7)
The v.28 God blesses them (man). The covenant is between God and Man. In primary sense it is man say Adam. In secondary sense it is set down by the Holy Ghost in terms of God as Being as well as in terms Christ and the Church.
As Being what is God? He is one. ("Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"-De.6:4) Jesus Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is both glory as well as body in Trinity. The Father Son and Holy Spirit are not considered separate entities but manifestations of the same Being. The Son of man expresses the Word become flesh. Similarly the Word was God. The same Spirit but expressed as separate. Jesus did not require baptism by water but in obedience to the Word and in human likeness he undertook so in all things he was as human as you and me.
When we say that the scriptures must be fulfilled Jesus in his humanity met the criteria. The third office in Trinity serves by bringing events, persons connect according to the divine Will. He therefore brought Evangelist Philip to meet the Ethiopian. The entire scripture is organized on a reconstituted time.
I know you are an author and your vocabulary is greater than mine I will try to respond but to be truthful you are hard to follow. First MOU my understanding is a nonbinding agreement between parties stating their intentions. How can that be a covenant a covenant is a relationship between partners either conditional or unconditional and this covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. Would not the Holy Spirit be a part of this covenant and the will of God that the Son completes? John 6:38 It is God's will not Jesus's like He said in Luke 22:42.
If God is a triune God, would it not be the will of all three with no difference in authority or knowledge? Why the need for a covenant between them since all three are God and all three are equal?
At the beginning of each day, God said what was to be, the spoken word of God, and it was so. Other than speculation how can we say the Son was in agreement? Isaiah 45:18 In Genesis 1:28 would be an unconditional covenant, more of a blessing, God placed man above all that was created on earth and man was given dominion over it. God delegated the rule of man over His creation and no consequences were stated, we see how that turned out.
I agree Jesus did not need to be water baptized for remittance of sin, but He did need the anointing of the Holy Ghost/Spirit to become the Messiah/Christ. The word of God was in Jesus and by the Holy Ghost/Spirit Jesus did the works of His Father therefore Jesus was the tabernacle of God, the image of God for every word Jesus said was not His but the word of God the Father. John 4:34John 5:30John 12:44-45
Philip was the first to bring the gospel to the Samaritans.
In addition to my reply you may check out my post from the gospel of St Mark, under the title 'Authority'. You see Trinity in action whether it is in heaven or on earth.
The everlasting covenant is between God and Man. The Man here is the Son, to whom God by a decree gives the day..Ps.2:7 How long the day is, it is set by eternal God. The seven days in the first chapter relate to what God willed. His will is perfect and absolute, requiring no correction.
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." God's will expressed and it is fulfilled by the Son. This is not with regards to the natural light from celestial objects but about inheritance of saints in light. This covenant is agreed upon light and darkness. In God's eyes light of the day or of night, "Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee."(Ps.139:12). Who shall question God why day and not night? It is a matter of faith and obedience. This is what the Son has shown as the Word become flesh.
"And the evening and the morning were the first day." The Spirit in recording this covenant gives us a phrase to indicate it is a continuous processs and at the end of each day it is recorded. In Re.21 we read that there was no more night in the holy city. Thus from day one in Ge.1:5 till the last book this shall be a continual process. God's covenant is everlasting while all other covenants are between men and allowed because of what is determined in heaven. Trinity gives God the Father, the Son and the third office in Trinity as the Witness.
Blessings come down from the greater to the lesser. Faith is one.
The two worlds framed by the word of God, unseen part is heaven (will of the Father) and world made to appear (earth) refers to the Son. So the earth abides forever.(Ec.1:4) He.11:3
The Spirit set creation, "In the beginning" (Ge.1:1) in "the fulness of time" referring the Advent of the Son/ " But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"(Gal.4:4-6). Time is according to God and not earth time.
I don't wish to take part in this conversation, but one thing comes into my mind.
There are scriptures in the Bible that show Jesus as a human being. We all know those scriptures and you have mentioned many so far. But on the other hand there are scriptures that show Jesus as a God. Some brothers and sisters have pointed them out to you. If one deletes either side gets into wrong conclusions. If one considers only those who show Him as a man then they will conclude that Jesus is only a man. If one selects only those who show Him as a God, then they will wrongly conclude that He is only God. You have to take both into account to get the right picture of Jesus. GBU
I wish to enter this conversation with you even though we have discussed together this topic in other past converstations. I hope you do not mind.
In regards to the doctrine of the triune nature of God, several questions come to my mind.
Is God and has He always been one solitary person?
Before creation was He always and only alone, without anyone to love?
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
What does Scripture say about these questions?
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifest in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
(Modalism)
For those who do not believe in the triune nature of God (three persons that share equally one divine nature) I would like answers to these questions. Since you have declared you to be non-trinitarian maybe you can give me your views in answer to these questions in this post.
Do you believe the Son is a created being?
I so, when did He come into existence?
Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?
Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adptionism)?
Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?
Do you believe that the will of the Father and the will of the Son are always the same or different?
Do you believe at a human being can truly save all men from sin and death by a perfect life in their own will?
How would a human being know that they are the Messiah from birth and thus know not to ever sin?
Do you believe that Jesus lived a sinless life?
Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one as Jesus said in Jn. 17 or that He and the Father are "in" one another and if they see Jesus, they see the Father?
How is it that Jesus AND the Father send the Holy Spirit if there is only one person as God?
Scripture is clear Jesus had no sin, Hebrews 4:151 Peter 2:221 John 3:5Romans 5:12-15.
Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one as Jesus said in Jn. 17 or that He and the Father are "in" one another and if they see Jesus, they see the Father?
Both, Jesus said I and my Father are one John 10:30 and in other places, one means unity. Jesus was one with the Father not because Jesus was God but because He was filled with the Spirit and God dwelt in him, John 14:10, as we see God was in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:19
God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by His Spirit that gave Jesus the power and authority like Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered to Jesus of His Father, Jesus did not have it, all was given to Him. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49John 14:10. This is why Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, John 14:9.
Jesus in His prayer asked the Father that we may be one, as He and His Father are one through the words of the disciples, John 17:20-23. God and Jesus will dwell in us and we in them, 1 John 4:13-161 John 3:23-24.
How is it that Jesus AND the Father send the Holy Spirit if there is only one person as God?
Jesus said He would pray to the Father to give another comforter, John 14:16, we see in John 14:26 the Father will send in Jesus's name. In John 15:26 Jesus said I will send but this is from the Father and the Spirit of truth that proceedeth from the Father. This is not a person it is the Spirit of God.
Please don't take this wrong, in the Trinity there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each Person is fully God, coequal, coeternal, and consubstantial. I'm sorry my understanding, is Scripture does not support that, Scripture is clear the Father is above all.
Thank you, GiGi, I hope this is what you wanted I am not the best at this.
Yes, Ronald, your explanations to my questions have helped me understand your viewpoint very well. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions seriously and respectfully. Be blessed today.
Do you believe that the will of the Father and the will of the Son are always the same or different?
Jesus was obedient to the Father, Jesus said many times it is not His will but the will of the Father who sent Him, the same as we are to do, John 4:34John 5:30Mark 3:35.
Do you believe that a human being can truly save all men from sin and death by a perfect life in their own will?
First, I will have to say it was the will of the Father, Jesus at the end even asked His father if there was another way but not Jesus's will but the will of His Father, Matthew 26:39Luke 22:42. We are told this is the foundation of our faith, Jesus' sacrificial death. God cannot die God is Spirit He has no blood to shed for sin it had to be a man, His Son, born of a woman.
John 3:16 God gave His Son not Himself 1 John 2:221 John 4:32 John 1:7Romans 5:82 Corinthians 5:21, God cannot be made sin, 1 Corinthians 15:17 Jesus died, and God raised Him from the dead, the first man to live a perfect life, the first fruits of those who sleep in death. 1 Corinthians 15:14 as said if Jesus was not a man who lived a perfect life and died and was raised from the dead all is vain.
The first Adam was the first man Jesus was the last Adam and the second man, 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. The law had to be fulfilled by a man.
How would a human being know that they are the Messiah from birth and thus know not to ever sin?
As we see Luke 2:51-52 Jesus grew up increasing in wisdom and stature in favor with God and man. Jesus was twelve years old and He knew His father was God, but it doesn't say Jesus knew then He was to be the Messiah. God also said He would raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, Deuteronomy 18:15, Isaiah 11:1-5Isaiah 61:1-2 confirmed in Luke 4:18-21. Romans 1:1-42 Timothy 2:8.
What is the meaning of created? Does it mean something that is made out of nothing? I would have to say no, Jesus is the Son of God who was conceived in the womb of Mary, Matthew 1:20Luke 1:35, I do not think I would say He was created.
If so, when did He come into existence?
In God's plan before anything and physically when He was conceived in Mary's womb.
Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?
Jesus is the Son of God fully human but without sin same as the first Adam, Scripture is clear when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit without measure, John 3:34. All the works of Jesus were done by the Spirit of God, Matthew 4:16Matthew 12:28Acts 10:38.
Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adoptionism)?
I had never heard of Adoptionism until now, I had to look it up, it's false. Christ and Messiah are the same; Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God after He was baptized by John, He then was made the Messiah/Christ fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 9:25. Jesus is the Son of God conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost/Spirit.
Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?
If you mean a divine nature is to have all the attributes that make God who He is I would have to say no. If so, Jesus could not sin or be tempted, Matthew 4:1Hebrews 4:15. If so, Jesus living a perfect life without sin is meaningless. Jesus could not have died; Jesus was given the power of the Holy Spirit when He was anointed the Messiah. After He rose from the dead God gave Jesus all power in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. God raised and placed Jesus on His right side, Ephesians 1:21-23. Jesus did not return to where He was before, God the Father placed everything under Jesus God's only begotten Son's feet and Jesus will reign until the last enemy is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15Matthew 1:20
My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:71 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 1:2Galatians 1:3Ephesians 1:2Ephesians 6:23Philippians 1:2Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
I believe the above answers this.
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1Genesis 1:31Proverbs 16:4Isaiah 45:18Nehemiah 9:6.
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.
To start; I used to have a similar understanding of the Trinity doctrine but over time it has changed, and I am still studying it. I do not consider myself part of any group or denomination other than a believer and follower of Jesus. I feel we should inspire each other to study in prayer for the truth and to be open to the Holy Spirit to unveil the truth as we know nothing.
With me, it started with two verses, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, I contemplated these verses for a long time, it was like they stuck in my mind unanswered. In my study of the Trinity, I found out how it developed and how many deaths it caused even after the Reformation, and the questions I asked in Churches, many could not explain it and said it is a mystery that man cannot comprehend.
Is God and has He always been one solitary person?
Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD, Mark 12:29 and as said in 1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. My understanding is God the Father is eternal He has always been and will always be Psalms 90:2. God is Spirit, if a person means He has a will, emotions, the ability to speak, rationalize, self-awareness, to have a relationship with His creation, love, hate, etc. yes one person.
Before creation was, He always and only alone, without anyone to love?
What was before creation in Scripture we have no writings or information, Scripture tells us the hosts of heaven were before the creation of the earth and the galaxies, Job 38:4-7. How long before the physical world and universe we see we do not know. God's plan He declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:9-10. I may be wrong, but God has never been alone inside Himself, time nor space cannot contain who He is, the beginning of His plan was Jesus.
You know I don't mind, we have had discussions before. You have given many questions, I will do my best to answer them. Hope you and your husband are well. It may be tomorrow or the next day but I will get back with you.
I look forward to read your answers because I truly want to know what you believe on this topic and understand your point of view better. I will be better able to respond back to you without assuming that you believe in ways you do not.
If there are any questions you wish to ask me, I would be glad to give you answers to those this week, too. Take care. I am on the mend and am thankful that covid did not do me in, having avoided it for 4 years. It seems that the present strains are not as dangerous for at risk people as at the beginning of the outbreak. Thanking God for that!
Please pray for my nephew. He has been in psyche ward twice in the past two months. He has attempted suicide 5-6 times in the last two months. He does not want to go back home to live with his dad (my brother) or his mom (both contributed to his traumatic childhood by serious neglect, manipulation, and denial of his medical needs and mental health issues. They are catalysts for this dangerous place he is 'in' right now. He wants to move to Texas to live with his sister. He has several sisters there. I hope that will work out and we will help him move there if he needs assistance. It is best for him to not be around my family because so many things can trigger him. He asked my other brother if he could stay with him for a few weeks until he can move to Texas. But neither my brother, nor I really know him very well. I pray that he can go straight from the hospital to his sisters home to live. His sisters know him and experienced the same neglect and denial of medical needs as he did to their detriment. His sisters were also sexually abused by my brother, their father and step-father, which led to him being put out of the family when my nephew was 18 months old. He has been living with his dad (my brother) since he was 18 years old. But my brother is a spiritual abuser and manipulator to him. So, such a sad and bad situation. I think his sisters can give him the best support.
Sorry to hear about your nephew, the life we are born into, many are not as blessed with good parents and good upbringings and that puts a heavy toll on them, but not so heavy God cannot undo. You and your family are in my prayers, I do not post my prayers I feel funny doing that, Matt. 6:6. I hope to reply today to your questions, I am not the best at unfolding how and why, but I will do my best.
Thanks, I understand this is a hard subject that goes deep. I understand what you are saying. I hope all is well with you.
God bless,
RLW
Many believe as you do in the Trinity, as you say, "The Trinity is God so how can you be saved and not believe in the Trinity". The Trinity was developed almost 400 years after Jesus ascended to heaven. This is not to debate. I think most on this site know my understanding of this.
Just a thought, to eliminate any doubt, if we must believe God is a Triune God to receive salvation shouldn't there be Scripture telling us this? You may have found where John, Peter, Paul, or any other apostles have written and told us we must believe in the Trinity for salvation, but I have not found it.
God bless.
RLW
I believe the word "Trinity" to describe the teaching of God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost as God three in one wasn't used until about 400AD but the teaching is bibical. Honest question, and you may have been asked this already, but it seems a big part of your belief is because the word Trinity isn't specifically spoken in the scriptures that you believe it isn't true but what about the word "rapture"? Do you believe in it? I'm not trying to deviate from this discussion. I'm just comparing what I believe in that the word Trinity may not be in the bible but, I believe, the teaching truly is. God Bless :)
You did not offend me at all, this subject is hard, and feelings go deep, and many will not even discuss it because it has been a foundation of belief for so many years, and as Giannis said there are verses in the bible that can support different understandings. I am not one to say it is because the word Trinity is not in the Bible. I feel if someone says it is not true because the word Trinity is not in the Bible falls short and does not support why they do not believe in the Trinity.
Same as the rapture, another subject that has been discussed here before. I also do not believe in how it is taught but it is not because the word rapture is not in the Bible. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it is caught up from the Greek word harpazo meaning to seize, catch up, snatch away. This can be translated into English as rapture which has the same meaning as harpazo. It is not the word it is what is taught that will happen.
Thank you and God bless,
RLW
Since I am new to this discussion would you be willing to explain what your belief is? I hesitate to ask because I know this is a repeat for you but I'd really like to know. If you'd rather not, I understand. Maybe we can go on to another discussion. I enjoy reading your comments and would like to continue in discussions with you.
God Bless :)
Neither the Spirit has told us how to breathe but we do it naturally through our nostrils. When God breathed through the nostrils of man we understand God a Spirit made us a living soul. The soul establishes His authority.There is more to life than existing.
We have body spirit and soul which corresponds with the 'us' in God's commandment "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."(Ge.1:26) Likeness gives a body, spirit and soul which is after the similitude existing in heaven.
"A body hast thou prepared me"(He.10:5) a glorious body for the Son consequently must hold true for us, is it not? It is to this spiritual body St Paul refers,"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."(2 Co.5:1) Glory of body is as what God gives. Adam was earthy, since from the ground he was formed. For those have born again as a new creation, the body is glorious as that of Christ who is the Lord of heaven. Thus glory of body differs as those of earth and of heaven differs.
We breathe merely as natural man. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. So as new creation we breathe as indwelling Spirit equipped us, seeking the perfect will of God. It is a matter of faith. Either you breathe so your soul shall escape condemnation when called to account Or you breathe till you body hit the dust, awaiting judgment.
Just me, seems there are fewer discussions lately on this site and Momsage's post suggested discussion. My understanding of discussions is brothers and sisters sharing their understanding of a subject not to belittle or to prove one as being wrong, but by sharing our understanding of a subject that will encourage each other to study in prayer for the truth.
What is faith? We see in Hebrews 11:1,6 We also have Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We are to have faith but our faith cannot be based on the word of man where we can be deceived and taken out of the way. Our faith must come from the word of God guided by His Spirit and His word is the Holy Scripture, He has given us.
This one subject is based on the word of man, nowhere in Scripture does it tell us we must believe or have faith in a triune God, but the opposite, Deuteronomy 6:4 Mark 12:29 1 Timothy 2:5, and many more. "God made us a living soul" Soul is the Hebrew word nephesh, a living being, any living being, every air-breathing creature is a nephesh, a living being/soul.
Genesis 1:26 many apply the Trinity to this verse but then we must ignore verse 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This could also easily be first-person plural, like mom says, let us make tacos and then she is the one who makes the tacos. If we lived before 489 AD, before the Trinity doctrine was made the foundational belief of Christianity, and the punishment of heresy, how would we take this verse?
If we walk in the world we will perish, if we walk in the Spirit our faith is in Jesus and our hope is as Jesus was resurrected in His glorified body so we shall also be resurrected in our glorified body into eternal life with Him.
God bless,
RLW
" Genesis 1:26 many apply the Trinity to this verse but then we must ignore verse 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This could also easily be first-person plural." No it is not. "
I, God changeth not"(Mal.3:6) Neither does He give his glory to another. Ge.1: 27 says " So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Ge. 1 refers to the MOU or the everlasting covenant between God the Father and God the Son. Thus the Will of God in v.26 and the Son completes it. "It was so" at the end of each day is as though the Son in agreement.(v.7)
The v.28 God blesses them (man). The covenant is between God and Man. In primary sense it is man say Adam. In secondary sense it is set down by the Holy Ghost in terms of God as Being as well as in terms Christ and the Church.
As Being what is God? He is one. ("Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"-De.6:4) Jesus Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is both glory as well as body in Trinity. The Father Son and Holy Spirit are not considered separate entities but manifestations of the same Being. The Son of man expresses the Word become flesh. Similarly the Word was God. The same Spirit but expressed as separate. Jesus did not require baptism by water but in obedience to the Word and in human likeness he undertook so in all things he was as human as you and me.
When we say that the scriptures must be fulfilled Jesus in his humanity met the criteria. The third office in Trinity serves by bringing events, persons connect according to the divine Will. He therefore brought Evangelist Philip to meet the Ethiopian. The entire scripture is organized on a reconstituted time.
I know you are an author and your vocabulary is greater than mine I will try to respond but to be truthful you are hard to follow. First MOU my understanding is a nonbinding agreement between parties stating their intentions. How can that be a covenant a covenant is a relationship between partners either conditional or unconditional and this covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. Would not the Holy Spirit be a part of this covenant and the will of God that the Son completes? John 6:38 It is God's will not Jesus's like He said in Luke 22:42.
If God is a triune God, would it not be the will of all three with no difference in authority or knowledge? Why the need for a covenant between them since all three are God and all three are equal?
At the beginning of each day, God said what was to be, the spoken word of God, and it was so. Other than speculation how can we say the Son was in agreement? Isaiah 45:18 In Genesis 1:28 would be an unconditional covenant, more of a blessing, God placed man above all that was created on earth and man was given dominion over it. God delegated the rule of man over His creation and no consequences were stated, we see how that turned out.
I agree Jesus did not need to be water baptized for remittance of sin, but He did need the anointing of the Holy Ghost/Spirit to become the Messiah/Christ. The word of God was in Jesus and by the Holy Ghost/Spirit Jesus did the works of His Father therefore Jesus was the tabernacle of God, the image of God for every word Jesus said was not His but the word of God the Father. John 4:34 John 5:30 John 12:44-45
Philip was the first to bring the gospel to the Samaritans.
I hope you can make sense of this.
God bless,
RLW
In addition to my reply you may check out my post from the gospel of St Mark, under the title 'Authority'. You see Trinity in action whether it is in heaven or on earth.
The everlasting covenant is between God and Man. The Man here is the Son, to whom God by a decree gives the day..Ps.2:7 How long the day is, it is set by eternal God. The seven days in the first chapter relate to what God willed. His will is perfect and absolute, requiring no correction.
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." God's will expressed and it is fulfilled by the Son. This is not with regards to the natural light from celestial objects but about inheritance of saints in light. This covenant is agreed upon light and darkness. In God's eyes light of the day or of night, "Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee."(Ps.139:12). Who shall question God why day and not night? It is a matter of faith and obedience. This is what the Son has shown as the Word become flesh.
"And the evening and the morning were the first day." The Spirit in recording this covenant gives us a phrase to indicate it is a continuous processs and at the end of each day it is recorded. In Re.21 we read that there was no more night in the holy city. Thus from day one in Ge.1:5 till the last book this shall be a continual process. God's covenant is everlasting while all other covenants are between men and allowed because of what is determined in heaven. Trinity gives God the Father, the Son and the third office in Trinity as the Witness.
Blessings come down from the greater to the lesser. Faith is one.
The two worlds framed by the word of God, unseen part is heaven (will of the Father) and world made to appear (earth) refers to the Son. So the earth abides forever.(Ec.1:4) He.11:3
The Spirit set creation, "In the beginning" (Ge.1:1) in "the fulness of time" referring the Advent of the Son/ " But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"(Gal.4:4-6). Time is according to God and not earth time.
I don't wish to take part in this conversation, but one thing comes into my mind.
There are scriptures in the Bible that show Jesus as a human being. We all know those scriptures and you have mentioned many so far. But on the other hand there are scriptures that show Jesus as a God. Some brothers and sisters have pointed them out to you. If one deletes either side gets into wrong conclusions. If one considers only those who show Him as a man then they will conclude that Jesus is only a man. If one selects only those who show Him as a God, then they will wrongly conclude that He is only God. You have to take both into account to get the right picture of Jesus. GBU
I wish to enter this conversation with you even though we have discussed together this topic in other past converstations. I hope you do not mind.
In regards to the doctrine of the triune nature of God, several questions come to my mind.
Is God and has He always been one solitary person?
Before creation was He always and only alone, without anyone to love?
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
What does Scripture say about these questions?
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifest in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
(Modalism)
For those who do not believe in the triune nature of God (three persons that share equally one divine nature) I would like answers to these questions. Since you have declared you to be non-trinitarian maybe you can give me your views in answer to these questions in this post.
Do you believe the Son is a created being?
I so, when did He come into existence?
Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?
Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adptionism)?
Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?
Do you believe that the will of the Father and the will of the Son are always the same or different?
Do you believe at a human being can truly save all men from sin and death by a perfect life in their own will?
How would a human being know that they are the Messiah from birth and thus know not to ever sin?
Do you believe that Jesus lived a sinless life?
Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one as Jesus said in Jn. 17 or that He and the Father are "in" one another and if they see Jesus, they see the Father?
How is it that Jesus AND the Father send the Holy Spirit if there is only one person as God?
I appreciate your answers
Part 5 and last Trinity discussion,
Do you believe that Jesus lived a sinless life?
Scripture is clear Jesus had no sin, Hebrews 4:15 1 Peter 2:22 1 John 3:5 Romans 5:12-15.
Do you believe that the Father and the Son are one as Jesus said in Jn. 17 or that He and the Father are "in" one another and if they see Jesus, they see the Father?
Both, Jesus said I and my Father are one John 10:30 and in other places, one means unity. Jesus was one with the Father not because Jesus was God but because He was filled with the Spirit and God dwelt in him, John 14:10, as we see God was in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:19
God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by His Spirit that gave Jesus the power and authority like Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered to Jesus of His Father, Jesus did not have it, all was given to Him. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10. This is why Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, John 14:9.
Jesus in His prayer asked the Father that we may be one, as He and His Father are one through the words of the disciples, John 17:20-23. God and Jesus will dwell in us and we in them, 1 John 4:13-16 1 John 3:23-24.
How is it that Jesus AND the Father send the Holy Spirit if there is only one person as God?
Jesus said He would pray to the Father to give another comforter, John 14:16, we see in John 14:26 the Father will send in Jesus's name. In John 15:26 Jesus said I will send but this is from the Father and the Spirit of truth that proceedeth from the Father. This is not a person it is the Spirit of God.
Please don't take this wrong, in the Trinity there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each Person is fully God, coequal, coeternal, and consubstantial. I'm sorry my understanding, is Scripture does not support that, Scripture is clear the Father is above all.
Thank you, GiGi, I hope this is what you wanted I am not the best at this.
God bless,
RLW
Part 4 Trinity discussion.
Do you believe that the will of the Father and the will of the Son are always the same or different?
Jesus was obedient to the Father, Jesus said many times it is not His will but the will of the Father who sent Him, the same as we are to do, John 4:34 John 5:30 Mark 3:35.
Do you believe that a human being can truly save all men from sin and death by a perfect life in their own will?
First, I will have to say it was the will of the Father, Jesus at the end even asked His father if there was another way but not Jesus's will but the will of His Father, Matthew 26:39 Luke 22:42. We are told this is the foundation of our faith, Jesus' sacrificial death. God cannot die God is Spirit He has no blood to shed for sin it had to be a man, His Son, born of a woman.
John 3:16 God gave His Son not Himself 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 1:7 Romans 5:8 2 Corinthians 5:21, God cannot be made sin, 1 Corinthians 15:17 Jesus died, and God raised Him from the dead, the first man to live a perfect life, the first fruits of those who sleep in death. 1 Corinthians 15:14 as said if Jesus was not a man who lived a perfect life and died and was raised from the dead all is vain.
The first Adam was the first man Jesus was the last Adam and the second man, 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. The law had to be fulfilled by a man.
How would a human being know that they are the Messiah from birth and thus know not to ever sin?
As we see Luke 2:51-52 Jesus grew up increasing in wisdom and stature in favor with God and man. Jesus was twelve years old and He knew His father was God, but it doesn't say Jesus knew then He was to be the Messiah. God also said He would raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, Deuteronomy 18:15, Isaiah 11:1-5 Isaiah 61:1-2 confirmed in Luke 4:18-21. Romans 1:1-4 2 Timothy 2:8.
See part 5
Part 3 Trinity discussion,
Do you believe the Son is a created being?
What is the meaning of created? Does it mean something that is made out of nothing? I would have to say no, Jesus is the Son of God who was conceived in the womb of Mary, Matthew 1:20 Luke 1:35, I do not think I would say He was created.
If so, when did He come into existence?
In God's plan before anything and physically when He was conceived in Mary's womb.
Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?
Jesus is the Son of God fully human but without sin same as the first Adam, Scripture is clear when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit without measure, John 3:34. All the works of Jesus were done by the Spirit of God, Matthew 4:16 Matthew 12:28 Acts 10:38.
Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adoptionism)?
I had never heard of Adoptionism until now, I had to look it up, it's false. Christ and Messiah are the same; Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God after He was baptized by John, He then was made the Messiah/Christ fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 9:25. Jesus is the Son of God conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost/Spirit.
Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?
If you mean a divine nature is to have all the attributes that make God who He is I would have to say no. If so, Jesus could not sin or be tempted, Matthew 4:1 Hebrews 4:15. If so, Jesus living a perfect life without sin is meaningless. Jesus could not have died; Jesus was given the power of the Holy Spirit when He was anointed the Messiah. After He rose from the dead God gave Jesus all power in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. God raised and placed Jesus on His right side, Ephesians 1:21-23. Jesus did not return to where He was before, God the Father placed everything under Jesus God's only begotten Son's feet and Jesus will reign until the last enemy is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
See part 4.
Part 2 Trinity discussion
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7 1 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 1:2 Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 1:2 Ephesians 6:23 Philippians 1:2 Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
I believe the above answers this.
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1 Genesis 1:31 Proverbs 16:4 Isaiah 45:18 Nehemiah 9:6.
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.
See part 3.
Part 1 Trinity discussion
To start; I used to have a similar understanding of the Trinity doctrine but over time it has changed, and I am still studying it. I do not consider myself part of any group or denomination other than a believer and follower of Jesus. I feel we should inspire each other to study in prayer for the truth and to be open to the Holy Spirit to unveil the truth as we know nothing.
With me, it started with two verses, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, I contemplated these verses for a long time, it was like they stuck in my mind unanswered. In my study of the Trinity, I found out how it developed and how many deaths it caused even after the Reformation, and the questions I asked in Churches, many could not explain it and said it is a mystery that man cannot comprehend.
Is God and has He always been one solitary person?
Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD, Mark 12:29 and as said in 1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. My understanding is God the Father is eternal He has always been and will always be Psalms 90:2. God is Spirit, if a person means He has a will, emotions, the ability to speak, rationalize, self-awareness, to have a relationship with His creation, love, hate, etc. yes one person.
Before creation was, He always and only alone, without anyone to love?
What was before creation in Scripture we have no writings or information, Scripture tells us the hosts of heaven were before the creation of the earth and the galaxies, Job 38:4-7. How long before the physical world and universe we see we do not know. God's plan He declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:9-10. I may be wrong, but God has never been alone inside Himself, time nor space cannot contain who He is, the beginning of His plan was Jesus.
See part 2
You know I don't mind, we have had discussions before. You have given many questions, I will do my best to answer them. Hope you and your husband are well. It may be tomorrow or the next day but I will get back with you.
God bless,
RLW
I look forward to read your answers because I truly want to know what you believe on this topic and understand your point of view better. I will be better able to respond back to you without assuming that you believe in ways you do not.
If there are any questions you wish to ask me, I would be glad to give you answers to those this week, too. Take care. I am on the mend and am thankful that covid did not do me in, having avoided it for 4 years. It seems that the present strains are not as dangerous for at risk people as at the beginning of the outbreak. Thanking God for that!
Please pray for my nephew. He has been in psyche ward twice in the past two months. He has attempted suicide 5-6 times in the last two months. He does not want to go back home to live with his dad (my brother) or his mom (both contributed to his traumatic childhood by serious neglect, manipulation, and denial of his medical needs and mental health issues. They are catalysts for this dangerous place he is 'in' right now. He wants to move to Texas to live with his sister. He has several sisters there. I hope that will work out and we will help him move there if he needs assistance. It is best for him to not be around my family because so many things can trigger him. He asked my other brother if he could stay with him for a few weeks until he can move to Texas. But neither my brother, nor I really know him very well. I pray that he can go straight from the hospital to his sisters home to live. His sisters know him and experienced the same neglect and denial of medical needs as he did to their detriment. His sisters were also sexually abused by my brother, their father and step-father, which led to him being put out of the family when my nephew was 18 months old. He has been living with his dad (my brother) since he was 18 years old. But my brother is a spiritual abuser and manipulator to him. So, such a sad and bad situation. I think his sisters can give him the best support.
Sorry to hear about your nephew, the life we are born into, many are not as blessed with good parents and good upbringings and that puts a heavy toll on them, but not so heavy God cannot undo. You and your family are in my prayers, I do not post my prayers I feel funny doing that, Matt. 6:6. I hope to reply today to your questions, I am not the best at unfolding how and why, but I will do my best.
God bless,
RLW
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