Primary or secondary applications: An open ended question.
In the last few hours I have wrestled with the question of discipleship and whether it is primary or "secondary" in importance.
First of all I need to categorically state that it is still VERY important and indeed necessary if we are ever going to be "sold out" for Jesus to ensure that we truly are disciples; and that of lasting ones that aren't going to walk away like many Jesus challenged on His way to eventually being crucified on the cross. Taking a brief internet survey of this subject there are varying opinions. It seems that one can be saved without being a disciple at least the level of commitment Jesus described. The thief on the cross would be one example; there was no time to work through issues like Jesus did with the 12 Apostles He chose as His primary disciples. The Corinthian church also stands out as a place where immature believers sometimes died before their time and had many other issues; clearly not acting as a mature disciple at least in terms of submitting their lives to the Lord.
The church changed over time; and although other churches also had issues it would seem certainly that the many admonitions written in Paul's Epistles and Peter and John's writings of the same were primarily to build believers up in the local churches to live as worthy of the calling; and hence good disciples.
If we are saved; we are ultimately justified and glorified ( Romans 8:30). We don't see sanctification there as would be expected as a true disciple; but again we certainly need to grow in this way to recieve spiritual rewards in heaven (Phillipians 3:14; also see other verses about crowns for service; ministry; patiently waiting for His appearing; etc.) Just because it doesn't necessarily determine our ultimate fate to lose out on what will be at least for the Millennium if not all of eternity our spiritual position in heaven would hardly be unimportant. I'll leave this open to debate
Concluding remarks on priority levels of scripture
As we look through the less important facts and figures of the Bible on the surface or face value; we begin to see how it ties into the primary themes; applications; doctrines and ultimately the whole grand scheme God is "staging" throughout human history to the inevitable "finale" when He returns to set things straight. In a way it is like a screen play the way God's plans end up. The difference; of course is that it is very real; not a feigned comedy or tragedy such as the Greeks liked to perform with masks either smiling or frowning to elicit a response. We all are involved in a life and death struggle; with ourselves; and related to our physical lives and spiritual "essense" as it were. This; of course is just an analogy; and a poor one in that we shouldn't see God as the "puppet master" behind the scenes or a Wizard of Oz type madman behind the stage controlling the set. (We'll leave that performance to Satan himself who likes to control the set while he himself is chained into a controlled area).
Also; I will admit for myself that I often think of familiar surroundings and situations when reading the Bible; having only seen pictures and a few videos of the Holy land and obviously not living 2000 or more years ago. This may be what we would call a secondary theme; that of people living an agrarian life where one's ox or donkey was of great importance; where women were in general no better off than slaves; where horrible tortures were not really considered abnormal and where people travelled a LOT more slowly than today. There can be misinterpretations such as Nahum 2:4 in regards to some deeper meaning to chariots jostling as representing cars in urban settings today. Nonetheless; Solomon stated that there was "nothing new under the sun" ( Ecclesiastes 1:9). Sin and rebellion haven't gone away; they may have found new ways to more quickly satisfy these carnal desires but are always present.
Concluding thoughts for now on the discussion of determining priority of importance of particular scriptures.
God; in His infinite wisdom created us all in different ways whether in our original fallen nature or after we are "born again".
We are all interdependent; so there needs to be interaction along with our life spent in solitude with the Lord devoting time to prayer; study of the Word and just listening to God. Without purposely trying to make things even more confusing; I would propose that the Word is structured with a lot of seemingly unimportant details; genealogies and stories that in time help us to piece together the whole picture of God's Providence and hence bring out in the Word and ultimately in our own lives things which become part of us as we meditate on the Lord day and night ( Joshua 1:8). A wise guide will likely lead a new convert to the Gospels; then commonly to Paul's Epistles before getting into the Old Testament in detail (one exception being the Creation and fall of man in the start of Genesis). This is good advice for a nonbeliever but we should not be constrained to this plan for someone; for instance truly seeking out God's truths in places like Revelation or perhaps some of the Old Testament prophets. In fact for a person of Jewish heritage it is probably best as several evangelists do in Israel today (Zev Porat as one example) to go directly to the Old Testament first (especially the taboo passage in Isaiah 53.)
These days; of course we can't assume any of the doctrines which a couple generations ago were never or hardly ever questioned are still held. These include but not necessarily limited to the inerrancy of God; the physical reality of an eternal heaven and hell; God's promises to national Israel still being valid today; the Millennial reign; or PreMillennial Pretribulation rapture. Admittedly these last three subjects were throughout much of the Reformed era and in Catholic traditions before that not believed.
Further discussion on definitions for secondary themes; applications and doctrines.
Besides UNIVERSAL rules with examples such as I posted in my last message about marriage regulations; murder would also be something which demands justice as a universal law.
What I will call CASE SPECIFIC tenants are not going to determine whether we are truly saved or not but are primarily appropriate for confessing believers. Sin is sin; but we shouldn't expect people to stop cussing; drinking; gambling or doing other vices that aren't at least strictly forbidden in scripture. Also things which are impossible become possible such as not loving the world or anything in it ( 1 John 2:15). These issues also could determine the lifespan of an individual and be considered more in the category of general wisdom. Someone who is habitually overeating is doing more harm to their bodies (in general) because of what is in reality a soul issue; whereas someone sleeping around is primarily hurting their soul. In either case physical health concerns can develop simply living in a perishable vessel.
Perhaps the classification here could be something that is associated with but not directly linked to a primary doctrine. Showing hospitality such as described in Hebrews 13:2 ties into the concept of loving God (1st commandment0 and loving your neighbor as yourself. Since it would be more difficult for a homeless man to be able to offer much in the way of hospitality it is somewhat case specific.
The third category may be something that is POSSIBLY related to a primary tenant but can't be strongly proven. Such could be a person who holds to a certain diet mentioned as ceremonially clean in the Old Testament. One could argue this is to honor the "Temple" where the Spirit now resides ( 1 Cor. 6:19-20). A more controversial issue is the day of worship. We could make an argument for the original day of rest or the first day of the week but we must remember Collossians 2:16!
In considering what I am calling "secondary" themes and applications in scripture; some definitions would probably be helpful.
We probably need to have a whole subdivision of the term "secondary" as nothing in the inspired Word of God is for naught.
The simple approach would be to have "tertiary" issues included for things such as eschatology; ceremonial laws and scientific validity of various health regulations; lists of names which aren't directly in the genealogy of Christ; etc. But of course; when we do this we add to the problem of correctly classifying something as one or another without considering the "gray areas" in between.
Perhaps secondary themes are easier to define. We could point out any facts in the Bible as to family situations; names and numbers of offspring; locations where certain events with associated details are mentioned and all the varieties of personalities with the characters mentioned throughout the entire 1500 year or so timespan of the writings; which involve about 4000 years of human history. Again; we have the issue of a theme being a lesson to further draw out the truths in the laws of God; hence we indirectly use these examples to apply to our lives; primarily to avoid sins and similar consequences in our own lives and hopefully find an example or two we can emulate and relate to.
In terms of application let's start to divide this way.
SECONDARY but attached to a primary application or doctrine. This would be repentance and saving faith LEADING to baptism as one example. These would also be directly meant and clearly understood as a moral law. I would further divide this into a universal law (such as the covenant involved in marriage which I consider of primary importance for that reason); and how we respond depending on our individual situation (married or unmarried). Personally I would argue for illegitimate divorce and remarriage as a primary issue but am aware many would disagree.
To enter into this conversation on the topic of discipleship/evangelism.
Deuteronomy 6:4-8 came to mind as the Israelites were commanded to teach their children according to the ways God proscribed to this chosen nation.
I think that this verse applies to the church in that we are to teach sound doctrine to those who come into the church by faith in Jesus. Since there was not Scriptures printed for all to read and that not all were able to read, it was important for the leaders to read the Scriptures they had access to and to teach what they learned from the apostles in order to encourage growth and maturity among the believers. Just as parents are responsible for bringing their children up in the faith, those who bring are brought into fellowship are to be brought up in the faith taught by the apostles. So, I don't think that either evangelism nor discipleship are primary or secondary, but both are vital to the health of the individual (to hear the gospel and grow in doctrinal knowledge of God and His ways) and the church (to preach the gospel and disciple those who are babes to become mature and able to teach others Scriptural truths). Some are gifted and called more specifically for evangelism and others for discipleship. While it is only by faith that one is saved in Christ, the church is tasked with discipling converts and babes in Christ. Paul did plenty of discipling in his letters to the churches he had planted.
It seems to me that God wills for every believer to grow in their faith and knowledge of the truths taught in Scripture, and, even though we do not need to be perfect in every way to be saved, it is valuable to each believer to be discipled and to learn to feed themselves on the Word, its truths and to grow into a life of willing service to God.
Jesus defined eternal life this way: to know the one true God and Jesus. This involves a right relationship with God, but then we are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God.
Well; as usual you have a better grasp on the subject with examples from the Bible to back it up. Perhaps it would be accurate to say that the primary APPLICATION of discipleship is with one to one interaction (or small group); and the secondary application is to read about how we are to act in the scriptures. Your example shows this with the parents being the tool to effectively render these truths to be alive in their kids who eventually mature enough to allow them to continue fueling their walk with the Bible and practice it eventually with their own children.
Conceptionally; as well you are more mature than I am. Postulating such an idea perhaps is foolish; as I tend to put down my thoughts in these posts without thinking about it. In one sense I deliberately posted this to get a better idea (learning myself as well as getting people to think about the subject).
I could have examined something like Baptism as a secondary application with initial salvation from God's granting of repentance as the primary one; and also based the thief on the cross as an example. Again it is somewhat nebulous since salvation is always the most important thing (baptism without true faith doesn't save anyone; but yes it is necessary as a declaration of faith and disobeying such an ordinance serious implication our public confession is not right and of course shows poorly as to us being a mature disciple).
Maybe I need to step back from the frenetic pace of these postings. I fear it is too often to garner attention although I don't deliberately set out to put myself on a pedestal or in a spotlight. Is it wrong to wrestle with issues and deliver these messages before taking time to seriously pray about them and seek His face? I do want to press on and continue to minister as well as love His Word by considering many matters on this site. I am doing this realizing in the future I probably won't soon have the time to do this once my parents are deceased. Advice?
Your posts challenge me to seriously consider the topic you present, to have my thinking be guided by the Holy Spirit, and to respond in ways that may help others. Like you, I don't "preplan" my responses to posts. I ust ask the Spirit to give me the best words and to guide my writing to make sense, be accurate, and to cause others to think more deeply on the revelation of God in Scriptures. Like you, I just let my thoughts flow into the posts as prompted by the Spirit.
I urge you to keep posting. You are doing well. If the Spirit prompts you to post and to post often, then do so! We do not need to be super eloquent, nor try to be anyone other than who we are in humility and appreciation for how God has made us and formed our thinking. We are iron sharpening iron, and that is so good for us. You be you, and I will be me , and together we build each other up in the faith once and for all passed down by the saints. We are all blessed by these saints who obediently allowed the Holy Spirit to inspire their writing of Scripture and their teaching and preaching as the Church was planted all over the Mediterranean world of their time and wherever the Lord sent them, as Thomas was sent to India and others were sent to northern Africa.
Be blessed today. It is the day that the Lord has made. Rejoice and be glad in it!
Going to garden today with my family. Have to repot perennials. So that means mixing up more potting soil and hopefully these ones will begin to thrive once again. I get a lot of joy from growing plants and flowers, digging in the dirt, and being outside. Simple joys, I guess, but rewarding.
Oh, Richard you are doing well in your postings. They make me think about the topic and let the Spirit bring to mind Scriptures that are relevant to what you are posting. They challenge me to
In the last few hours I have wrestled with the question of discipleship and whether it is primary or "secondary" in importance.
First of all I need to categorically state that it is still VERY important and indeed necessary if we are ever going to be "sold out" for Jesus to ensure that we truly are disciples; and that of lasting ones that aren't going to walk away like many Jesus challenged on His way to eventually being crucified on the cross. Taking a brief internet survey of this subject there are varying opinions. It seems that one can be saved without being a disciple at least the level of commitment Jesus described. The thief on the cross would be one example; there was no time to work through issues like Jesus did with the 12 Apostles He chose as His primary disciples. The Corinthian church also stands out as a place where immature believers sometimes died before their time and had many other issues; clearly not acting as a mature disciple at least in terms of submitting their lives to the Lord.
The church changed over time; and although other churches also had issues it would seem certainly that the many admonitions written in Paul's Epistles and Peter and John's writings of the same were primarily to build believers up in the local churches to live as worthy of the calling; and hence good disciples.
If we are saved; we are ultimately justified and glorified ( Romans 8:30). We don't see sanctification there as would be expected as a true disciple; but again we certainly need to grow in this way to recieve spiritual rewards in heaven (Phillipians 3:14; also see other verses about crowns for service; ministry; patiently waiting for His appearing; etc.) Just because it doesn't necessarily determine our ultimate fate to lose out on what will be at least for the Millennium if not all of eternity our spiritual position in heaven would hardly be unimportant. I'll leave this open to debate
As we look through the less important facts and figures of the Bible on the surface or face value; we begin to see how it ties into the primary themes; applications; doctrines and ultimately the whole grand scheme God is "staging" throughout human history to the inevitable "finale" when He returns to set things straight. In a way it is like a screen play the way God's plans end up. The difference; of course is that it is very real; not a feigned comedy or tragedy such as the Greeks liked to perform with masks either smiling or frowning to elicit a response. We all are involved in a life and death struggle; with ourselves; and related to our physical lives and spiritual "essense" as it were. This; of course is just an analogy; and a poor one in that we shouldn't see God as the "puppet master" behind the scenes or a Wizard of Oz type madman behind the stage controlling the set. (We'll leave that performance to Satan himself who likes to control the set while he himself is chained into a controlled area).
Also; I will admit for myself that I often think of familiar surroundings and situations when reading the Bible; having only seen pictures and a few videos of the Holy land and obviously not living 2000 or more years ago. This may be what we would call a secondary theme; that of people living an agrarian life where one's ox or donkey was of great importance; where women were in general no better off than slaves; where horrible tortures were not really considered abnormal and where people travelled a LOT more slowly than today. There can be misinterpretations such as Nahum 2:4 in regards to some deeper meaning to chariots jostling as representing cars in urban settings today. Nonetheless; Solomon stated that there was "nothing new under the sun" ( Ecclesiastes 1:9). Sin and rebellion haven't gone away; they may have found new ways to more quickly satisfy these carnal desires but are always present.
God; in His infinite wisdom created us all in different ways whether in our original fallen nature or after we are "born again".
We are all interdependent; so there needs to be interaction along with our life spent in solitude with the Lord devoting time to prayer; study of the Word and just listening to God. Without purposely trying to make things even more confusing; I would propose that the Word is structured with a lot of seemingly unimportant details; genealogies and stories that in time help us to piece together the whole picture of God's Providence and hence bring out in the Word and ultimately in our own lives things which become part of us as we meditate on the Lord day and night ( Joshua 1:8). A wise guide will likely lead a new convert to the Gospels; then commonly to Paul's Epistles before getting into the Old Testament in detail (one exception being the Creation and fall of man in the start of Genesis). This is good advice for a nonbeliever but we should not be constrained to this plan for someone; for instance truly seeking out God's truths in places like Revelation or perhaps some of the Old Testament prophets. In fact for a person of Jewish heritage it is probably best as several evangelists do in Israel today (Zev Porat as one example) to go directly to the Old Testament first (especially the taboo passage in Isaiah 53.)
These days; of course we can't assume any of the doctrines which a couple generations ago were never or hardly ever questioned are still held. These include but not necessarily limited to the inerrancy of God; the physical reality of an eternal heaven and hell; God's promises to national Israel still being valid today; the Millennial reign; or PreMillennial Pretribulation rapture. Admittedly these last three subjects were throughout much of the Reformed era and in Catholic traditions before that not believed.
Besides UNIVERSAL rules with examples such as I posted in my last message about marriage regulations; murder would also be something which demands justice as a universal law.
What I will call CASE SPECIFIC tenants are not going to determine whether we are truly saved or not but are primarily appropriate for confessing believers. Sin is sin; but we shouldn't expect people to stop cussing; drinking; gambling or doing other vices that aren't at least strictly forbidden in scripture. Also things which are impossible become possible such as not loving the world or anything in it ( 1 John 2:15). These issues also could determine the lifespan of an individual and be considered more in the category of general wisdom. Someone who is habitually overeating is doing more harm to their bodies (in general) because of what is in reality a soul issue; whereas someone sleeping around is primarily hurting their soul. In either case physical health concerns can develop simply living in a perishable vessel.
Perhaps the classification here could be something that is associated with but not directly linked to a primary doctrine. Showing hospitality such as described in Hebrews 13:2 ties into the concept of loving God (1st commandment0 and loving your neighbor as yourself. Since it would be more difficult for a homeless man to be able to offer much in the way of hospitality it is somewhat case specific.
The third category may be something that is POSSIBLY related to a primary tenant but can't be strongly proven. Such could be a person who holds to a certain diet mentioned as ceremonially clean in the Old Testament. One could argue this is to honor the "Temple" where the Spirit now resides ( 1 Cor. 6:19-20). A more controversial issue is the day of worship. We could make an argument for the original day of rest or the first day of the week but we must remember Collossians 2:16!
We probably need to have a whole subdivision of the term "secondary" as nothing in the inspired Word of God is for naught.
The simple approach would be to have "tertiary" issues included for things such as eschatology; ceremonial laws and scientific validity of various health regulations; lists of names which aren't directly in the genealogy of Christ; etc. But of course; when we do this we add to the problem of correctly classifying something as one or another without considering the "gray areas" in between.
Perhaps secondary themes are easier to define. We could point out any facts in the Bible as to family situations; names and numbers of offspring; locations where certain events with associated details are mentioned and all the varieties of personalities with the characters mentioned throughout the entire 1500 year or so timespan of the writings; which involve about 4000 years of human history. Again; we have the issue of a theme being a lesson to further draw out the truths in the laws of God; hence we indirectly use these examples to apply to our lives; primarily to avoid sins and similar consequences in our own lives and hopefully find an example or two we can emulate and relate to.
In terms of application let's start to divide this way.
SECONDARY but attached to a primary application or doctrine. This would be repentance and saving faith LEADING to baptism as one example. These would also be directly meant and clearly understood as a moral law. I would further divide this into a universal law (such as the covenant involved in marriage which I consider of primary importance for that reason); and how we respond depending on our individual situation (married or unmarried). Personally I would argue for illegitimate divorce and remarriage as a primary issue but am aware many would disagree.
To enter into this conversation on the topic of discipleship/evangelism.
Deuteronomy 6:4-8 came to mind as the Israelites were commanded to teach their children according to the ways God proscribed to this chosen nation.
I think that this verse applies to the church in that we are to teach sound doctrine to those who come into the church by faith in Jesus. Since there was not Scriptures printed for all to read and that not all were able to read, it was important for the leaders to read the Scriptures they had access to and to teach what they learned from the apostles in order to encourage growth and maturity among the believers. Just as parents are responsible for bringing their children up in the faith, those who bring are brought into fellowship are to be brought up in the faith taught by the apostles. So, I don't think that either evangelism nor discipleship are primary or secondary, but both are vital to the health of the individual (to hear the gospel and grow in doctrinal knowledge of God and His ways) and the church (to preach the gospel and disciple those who are babes to become mature and able to teach others Scriptural truths). Some are gifted and called more specifically for evangelism and others for discipleship. While it is only by faith that one is saved in Christ, the church is tasked with discipling converts and babes in Christ. Paul did plenty of discipling in his letters to the churches he had planted.
It seems to me that God wills for every believer to grow in their faith and knowledge of the truths taught in Scripture, and, even though we do not need to be perfect in every way to be saved, it is valuable to each believer to be discipled and to learn to feed themselves on the Word, its truths and to grow into a life of willing service to God.
Jesus defined eternal life this way: to know the one true God and Jesus. This involves a right relationship with God, but then we are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God.
Conceptionally; as well you are more mature than I am. Postulating such an idea perhaps is foolish; as I tend to put down my thoughts in these posts without thinking about it. In one sense I deliberately posted this to get a better idea (learning myself as well as getting people to think about the subject).
I could have examined something like Baptism as a secondary application with initial salvation from God's granting of repentance as the primary one; and also based the thief on the cross as an example. Again it is somewhat nebulous since salvation is always the most important thing (baptism without true faith doesn't save anyone; but yes it is necessary as a declaration of faith and disobeying such an ordinance serious implication our public confession is not right and of course shows poorly as to us being a mature disciple).
Maybe I need to step back from the frenetic pace of these postings. I fear it is too often to garner attention although I don't deliberately set out to put myself on a pedestal or in a spotlight. Is it wrong to wrestle with issues and deliver these messages before taking time to seriously pray about them and seek His face? I do want to press on and continue to minister as well as love His Word by considering many matters on this site. I am doing this realizing in the future I probably won't soon have the time to do this once my parents are deceased. Advice?
oops accidentally pushed sent instead.
To continue
Your posts challenge me to seriously consider the topic you present, to have my thinking be guided by the Holy Spirit, and to respond in ways that may help others. Like you, I don't "preplan" my responses to posts. I ust ask the Spirit to give me the best words and to guide my writing to make sense, be accurate, and to cause others to think more deeply on the revelation of God in Scriptures. Like you, I just let my thoughts flow into the posts as prompted by the Spirit.
I urge you to keep posting. You are doing well. If the Spirit prompts you to post and to post often, then do so! We do not need to be super eloquent, nor try to be anyone other than who we are in humility and appreciation for how God has made us and formed our thinking. We are iron sharpening iron, and that is so good for us. You be you, and I will be me , and together we build each other up in the faith once and for all passed down by the saints. We are all blessed by these saints who obediently allowed the Holy Spirit to inspire their writing of Scripture and their teaching and preaching as the Church was planted all over the Mediterranean world of their time and wherever the Lord sent them, as Thomas was sent to India and others were sent to northern Africa.
Be blessed today. It is the day that the Lord has made. Rejoice and be glad in it!
Going to garden today with my family. Have to repot perennials. So that means mixing up more potting soil and hopefully these ones will begin to thrive once again. I get a lot of joy from growing plants and flowers, digging in the dirt, and being outside. Simple joys, I guess, but rewarding.
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