Years of teachin Sunday morning and afternoon and evening had me perplexed by seeming contradictions. At age 37 my spiritual eyes were opened when I put my life into God's Hands. The loudest verse was The Great Commission, Matthew 28 19 and 20. There is a comma after nations, teaching themvti observe all things whatsoever I have COMMANDED you." What were the all things. Then Paul's message became clear. And backed up by the fact the apostles had not left Jerusalem after 15 years because every Jew had to be saved BEFORE they could take the message to the nations. See Acts 28:24-29.
Can you please share where in scripture I can find that every Jew had to be saved before they could take the message to the nations. I do not know of any place where Paul taught that. Are you referring only to those who were sent out, or every Jew?
Patricia, you being a professing christian and all, might want to consider this verse that God had Paul put in His Boo.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man, but to be in silience. 1 Tim 2:12
Women are not to teach, their duty is to their husband, to guide the household and to submit to her husband. She is not to teach, but to learn at home. It is a sin against God for any woman to teach
Sir, I both agree and disagree with what you're saying. First, I do not see anything in Patricia's post stating that she is pastoring a church, or usurping authority over a man. I agree with 1 Timothy 2:12, but that is speaking of a woman being in authority over a man in the church, or pastoring a church, not that a woman cannot teach at all. Women are allowed to teach children in a Sunday school setting, or at home if the man is not fulfilling that role. Women are also allowed to teach other women. However, women are not to hold a position of authority over the men in the church. In other words, women are not allowed to pastor the church. This is not to say that women are inferior to men, and there are plenty of women who would be much better teachers than some of the men out there. But God's order in the church is God, Christ, Man, Woman. As far as submission goes, it always involves a third person, Wives submit to their husbands, husbands submit to their wives, in the Lord!
Jessie, you err seriously. The Bible does NOT tell husbands to submit to their wives. That's a total lie. Show the scriptures that says that. You won't find any.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. As a woman should submit herself onto the Lord, she should do likewise to her husband. Husbands are to rule their homes, not the wife. Here's the lowdown on who women should teach (and not in the church)
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Jesse, she says Years of teaching Sunday morning and afternoon and evening had me perplexed by seeming contradictions. Most people go to church on Sunday mornings and evenings. Where else would she be teaching. The role of teaching was given to men, not to women, hence Paul not allowing a woman to teach. By doing this, she IS usurping authority. Would ya say robbing a bank was ok, as long as it was for a good cause? No.
Women are allowed to teach children in a Sunday school setting. WRONG
Paul say a woman should not teach in church period. How can a woman teach in Sunday School if "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak.
Or at home if the man is not fulfilling that role. A woman should teach their children about the Lord AT Home. That is scriptural.
Sir, she did not say she was pastoring a church. Had she of said that, then my position would be different. I don't believe that women teaching children in Sunday school is wrong, unless of course men are mixed in with the children, then we have a problem.
1 Cor. 14:34-35, Let your women keep silence in the churches, and if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
The word woman in scripture is also the word for wife, which meets the criteria for here. Let your women, or wives, keep silence in the churches:
Paul is talking about women being disruptive. It has nothing to do with teaching. In the early church, they had men on one side and the women on the other. Men could not be with women, and women could not be with men.
Somebody is up there teaching, and somebody's wife is over on the other side going "Hey Fred, do you agree with that? What do you think?" They are talking across the room, being disruptive!
Jesse, please don't twist the Scripture to make it say what ya want it to say. Paul told Christian that he suffers not a woman to teach, but to be in silence. It is against God's law/order for a woman to speak in church. There is no other scripture changing that truth. So where in the Bible does it say that in the early church men sat on one side and women on the other? It doesn't and you have absolutely zero proof that it happened that way. That is a feministic view to twist the Word to make it say what they want it to say.
If Paul said that he suffers not for women to teach then he obviously never imagined my mother, or sister, or daughter. They are all much smarter than me and they have all taught me a great deal.
a goldy Christian wife submits to her husband. She is supposed to be meek and quite, not a loud mouth, pushy woman, that is an embarassm,ent to her husband (especially in front of other people. A godly wife is not a thorn in his side. Proverbs 21:19 It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious (argumenative) and an angry woman.
preaching is preaching, doesn't matter where it is. one on one , sharing their testimony and inviting them to Christ is what women should do, niot teach. You either have to take the Word of God as it is written, or just write your own Bible.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Thanks for that. I guess this is where Christianity meets Islam. I understand that Muslims are also against women being equal. They try to make it look OK by saying that women are equal 'just in another way'. Is that how Christians see it as well? And in the Jewish religion? Maybe that has something to do with the region and time in history where these three religions succeeded one another?
In my case my mother, sister and daughter are all better educated and sure are much smarter than me! I guess if we had a church it would be them leading the discussion.
Do you think maybe Paul was talking about how things were then in the Middle East, 2,000 years ago? Do we ever ask why? Would keeping women down work well today in London or NYC? Could that lead a a lot of very unhappy women? Even unhappy men? Seems unnecessary and I cannot think of a good reason for it..
Women are NOT equal. They never were from the beginning.God made woman from a PART of man. Peter calls them the weaker vessel. if you aren't the same strength, then you are unequal. She was made to be a "help meet" , a wife for man; not a ruler, not a soverign, not a CEO, not a soldier, not a cop, but a keeper of the house. Weak men have given up their God given lordship due to feminism, what a shame. God used a woman judge (Deborah) and a housewife (Jael) ONE time in the Bible, in the same event no less, for the specific reason of being an embarrassment to a male king. That's all. Never another woman ruler. God told MEN to go to war, never did he tell WOMEN to go to war. The young girl that "kept the door of the tabernacle" was a one time job, her dad had to go and do a job inside the temple and she was the first person he saw to hold the door. Why is it that these days, women STRIVE to be better than men. What do they have to prove? That they are equal? They break God's law/order
David, I think it depends on how you view equality. If through the eyes of the present, then yes, both the Quran & the Bible are out of step with gender equality. Having ministered in an Islamic country, I can state that the Islam does treat women equally, BUT on THEIR terms & understanding of their scriptures. I don't agree with it naturally (from a Christian viewpoint), but they need to abide by its requirements until such time they find their freedom in Christ. For the Christian woman, again if the matter is considered on purely a cultural basis, also the head covering issue, then they can appear offensive. What about a male covering his head? But our Scriptures do give a clear reason & it is not to belittle women in any way: it starts in 1 Cor 11:3; 14:34,35 (specifically): relating the spiritual significance & order of creation. True, many today pay little regard to such verses, but then the question: which parts of the Bible do I choose to practise & which parts are optional?
No parts are optional. You follow them all. Culture and society have trampled the Word of God. Women should STILL worship with their heads covered. The reason why they don't ??? Just like Israel did. And look what happened to Israel. God turned His back on them for millenium now. There are left to doing what is right in their own eyes, Just as AmeriKans are. And just as God did with Israel, for turning AWAY from the Lord their God, He is fixing to do the exact same with America and England. Just as a woman shall keep her silence in church 1 Cor 14:34, she should also worship with her head covered. 1 Cor 11:5 tells why.But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. If a woman worships with her head uncovered, she DISHONORETH her head (husband) and is an embrassment to him. The silence/head covering is designed by God to show a woman humility. Keeps her humble.
It doesn't say she was teaching, does it? Is it possible that she was receiving the teaching? That would make more sense to me, because if it were her doing the teaching, why after years go by would she be perplexed by seeming contradictions? Do you honestly believe that she was doing the teaching and becoming perplexed at her own contradictions? I think not! She says at age 37, her spiritual eyes were opened when she put her life into God's Hands." Praise the Lord for that! It sounds to me that she was the recipient of the teaching, not the teacher herself, and had enough of the contradicting messages that she was being taught. How about that for a twist!
Before you come back and attack me, I hope you can please see what you are doing. It's definitely not edification.
The bible does not tell us everything about the early church. There are things we can't find in scripture. It doesn't cover all of early church history. Have you ever gone outside the bible to look something up?
Lastly, since I have a knack for "twisting," here's a twist for you. Did you give much thought to Patricia's post before you went on the attack and accused her of teaching in the church? Apparently not, for it is easy to see that she was not the teacher, but the pupil. Her opening statement would tell me that she couldn't have been the one doing the teaching. I never accused her of teaching, you did!
Look at what she said in her opening remarks and think about it. She says "Years of teaching Sunday morning and afternoon and evening had me perplexed by seeming contradictions. At age 37 my spiritual eyes were opened when I put my life into God's Hands."
You throw out the word feminism a lot, and I can't help but envision in my mind the entry door to your church having a sign posted saying "Women, keep your traps shut beyond this point."
Am I still "twisting" something here? If so, please point it out to me. Since you're that guy who's been through the bible "MANY" times as you say, you probably would be the most qualified to explain it. Edify me, don't tear me down!
You ask me where in the Bible does it say that in the early church men sat on one side and women on the other? You are right, it doesn't say that. I guess it wouldn't be twisting scripture if I read it elsewhere, so I'm safe there. And if you want an answer to that question, you can research it yourself. A man of your knowledge probably doesn't need my help finding the answer. Not everything we say has to be proven from the bible, unless of course it is the doctrine contained within.
Charles, you went from calling me a liar to telling me I'm twisting scripture to make it say what I want? First of all, I'll be the first to admit that I can be wrong. My strongest point as a believer is to confess my spiritual stupidity before God and confess to Him that I don't know. My confession to Christ is that I'm just a dumb sheep in constant need of a shepherd. So, can I be wrong, yup!
You sir on the other hand would probably be pained to admit that you could be wrong. You speak about edification, but how is it edifying to anyone when your words seem so harsh. How does that build someone up?
I know what Paul said. I've read it. Women are not to pastor in the church, pretty simple! Being silent does not mean they can't speak at all. They just can't teach the men or be put in a position of authority over the men in the church.
I never called you a liar. Infomation speaking for it self. When ya make a scripture say something other than exactly what it says as written, you are changing God's Word and ya know what He says about that in Revelations. So using your logic, as long as a woman isn't inside of a"church" building, you're good with them being street preachers? I'm very happy to admit when I am wrong, but in this thread, I have only quoted the Scripture as it is written and you are making your own decisions. I don't name call, I only speak what I see in the Word.
God's Word tells us to edify those that are erring, in hopes that they will learn what His Word says and will turn from their own will to His. I have not been harsh whatsoever. If you are offended by God's Word, you have to take that up with Him , not me. Where do you see this verse(s) that tells Chritians to build up those that err?
Charles, I'm not sure what more I can say to you. You obviously are not understanding me. Can you not see that I have agreed with you for the most part. Women are not allowed to pastor a church where men will be in attendance. They are not allowed to teach the men. I've already said that. What else are you looking for? You are way off if you believe you understand my logic. Street preachers? Come on!
I agree with you that you have quoted scripture as it is written. You quoted it perfectly, you just misapplied it! You probably feel that I've done the same, so where does that leave us? It's not what I say that is truth, and it's not what you say that is truth, and it is possible that we can both be wrong. God's word is truth, and if one of us is incorrect in our understanding, He will deal with that. Would you at least agree on that?
Also, do you see how the person who began this post could not have been the one teaching? We may never find out since the post was sent 4 years ago.
Ever hear of Deborah the prophetess and judge? Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. I suppose when the Lord can not find a man worthy for the job, he will send a woman. I would rather learn from a Godly woman, than a heretic man, which the church world is full of today. Yes I know what Paul writes.
Who taught Timothy? 2 Timothy Chapter 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from [my] forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;
4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy;
5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
Bob, Yes sir, sure did. Deborah was used by the Lord when there were no stand up men left in Israel. An exception to God's Law order. But there are PLENTY of God fearing MEN left in the world today. But there are thousands of wicked women disobeying God preaching and teaching, when they ought not (if these women are saved at all).
Timothy learned as a child from his mother and grandmother AT HOME, just like I did, At HOME.
One of the things I saw at my Christian School we can notice is that some gay men who have not 'come out of the closet' have very strong views about sex.
Jesse, I agree with your position & understanding of the Scripture. Except, I believe that it is: "husbands love your wives" & not "submit". Well, that's okay, even my wife thinks it is: "husbands submit to your wives, in the Lord".
Charles: I will direct you first to Proverbs 31 and then the New Testament or New Covenant. Women do all the things you mention and more; which is why they live longer. If the husband will not be the priest of the household, the women have to do it. Family prayers,; same thing. Rather than sit on your scriptures, why not help the woman ? God pulled that rib out of Adams side: not above or below the ribcage. From his side nearer his heart. The Church is Jesus's Bride. How's your relationship with your Bridegroom? Y'a gotta think outside that little box of who does what.
Mishael:If the husband will not be the priest of the household, the women have to do it.
Prove that using only scriptures ! That's a satanic lie. There was NEVER a woman priest in the Old Testament or the New Testament. I am helping the woman by edifying her with the scriptures to not teach. Women are to LEARN at home and to use this information to live godly lives and to not be an embarassment to their husbands.
And just where in the OT or NT does the scriptures tell anyone to do "family" prayers? That's not what Jesus, the Founder of Christianity, taught. This is what Jesus says about prayer.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. Matt 6:6
Y'a gotta think outside that little box of who does what.
No, when ya put aside the Scriptures, that's PRIDE and doing what is right in your own eyes. God wants HIS will to be done, not yours
There is a huge amount of scripture in Deuteronomy about teaching children. It's a blessing of obedience. I realize Deuteronomy is tedious to read but God meant for the teachings to be carried through the future. He could see our reality now for kids: youtube silliness and videos how to undo parental controls, Netflix and worse. Even if you put your kid in a private Christian school, they're going to do what their parents and peers do.
I did not say women are to be priests in the home. Her role is in proverbs 31. I said in the absence of a husband who behaves as priest in the home... she will have to do it. If you know to do right and don't do it, the family suffers. How many of our children are living in a one parent home? Research that! You need to slow down and read what someone is commenting on before you come out with guns blazing.
Facts remain. Teach the kids to love God and obey Gods will for their lives. Not just Deuteronomy but all of Proverbs too.
I've read the Bible thru MANY times. Just finished the book of Deuteronomy and now in the book of Joshua. How many one parent homes are women with their children collecting goverment subsidies and child support, that failed to do her God given duties and the man couldn't handle her feminism any more and left her? Feminists are taking over. God does NOT like feminism at all. You keep coming up with all kinds of Comments, but not a single verse of scripture to back up tou point. I have every time
To Charles & Jesse: I've been following this thread with much interest & am not wanting to intrude into what has already been shared. I think, for the most part, you both are of the same mind, so I have nothing of useful substance to offer. My writing is to simply share a link that I have found, & from only a cursory read of the article (as it is very long), it gives a splendid overview of the role of women throughout (biblical) history: how the Jews regarded them, their position in Christ's view, into the early Church & the modern Church. It is a long article, maybe tedious to read, but gives a very full & balanced examination of the woman's position, mixed with many Scriptures & references to other writings, as further support. Please go to: letusreason.org , then type in /pent45.htm (I cannot post the full link here).
I copied it to a word document and sent it to my phone so I can read on the go. I have not been to that website in at least 10 years. I had forgotten all about it. From what I remember, there's some good information there. Thanks for sharing that. I will read it soon, Lord willing!
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Can you please share where in scripture I can find that every Jew had to be saved before they could take the message to the nations. I do not know of any place where Paul taught that. Are you referring only to those who were sent out, or every Jew?
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man, but to be in silience. 1 Tim 2:12
Women are not to teach, their duty is to their husband, to guide the household and to submit to her husband. She is not to teach, but to learn at home. It is a sin against God for any woman to teach
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. As a woman should submit herself onto the Lord, she should do likewise to her husband. Husbands are to rule their homes, not the wife. Here's the lowdown on who women should teach (and not in the church)
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Women are allowed to teach children in a Sunday school setting. WRONG
Paul say a woman should not teach in church period. How can a woman teach in Sunday School if "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak.
Or at home if the man is not fulfilling that role. A woman should teach their children about the Lord AT Home. That is scriptural.
1 Cor. 14:34-35, Let your women keep silence in the churches, and if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
The word woman in scripture is also the word for wife, which meets the criteria for here. Let your women, or wives, keep silence in the churches:
Paul is talking about women being disruptive. It has nothing to do with teaching. In the early church, they had men on one side and the women on the other. Men could not be with women, and women could not be with men.
Somebody is up there teaching, and somebody's wife is over on the other side going "Hey Fred, do you agree with that? What do you think?" They are talking across the room, being disruptive!
How did Paul get it so wrong?
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Thanks for that. I guess this is where Christianity meets Islam. I understand that Muslims are also against women being equal. They try to make it look OK by saying that women are equal 'just in another way'. Is that how Christians see it as well? And in the Jewish religion? Maybe that has something to do with the region and time in history where these three religions succeeded one another?
In my case my mother, sister and daughter are all better educated and sure are much smarter than me! I guess if we had a church it would be them leading the discussion.
Do you think maybe Paul was talking about how things were then in the Middle East, 2,000 years ago? Do we ever ask why? Would keeping women down work well today in London or NYC? Could that lead a a lot of very unhappy women? Even unhappy men? Seems unnecessary and I cannot think of a good reason for it..
David
It doesn't say she was teaching, does it? Is it possible that she was receiving the teaching? That would make more sense to me, because if it were her doing the teaching, why after years go by would she be perplexed by seeming contradictions? Do you honestly believe that she was doing the teaching and becoming perplexed at her own contradictions? I think not! She says at age 37, her spiritual eyes were opened when she put her life into God's Hands." Praise the Lord for that! It sounds to me that she was the recipient of the teaching, not the teacher herself, and had enough of the contradicting messages that she was being taught. How about that for a twist!
Before you come back and attack me, I hope you can please see what you are doing. It's definitely not edification.
The bible does not tell us everything about the early church. There are things we can't find in scripture. It doesn't cover all of early church history. Have you ever gone outside the bible to look something up?
Lastly, since I have a knack for "twisting," here's a twist for you. Did you give much thought to Patricia's post before you went on the attack and accused her of teaching in the church? Apparently not, for it is easy to see that she was not the teacher, but the pupil. Her opening statement would tell me that she couldn't have been the one doing the teaching. I never accused her of teaching, you did!
Look at what she said in her opening remarks and think about it. She says "Years of teaching Sunday morning and afternoon and evening had me perplexed by seeming contradictions. At age 37 my spiritual eyes were opened when I put my life into God's Hands."
One more to follow.
You throw out the word feminism a lot, and I can't help but envision in my mind the entry door to your church having a sign posted saying "Women, keep your traps shut beyond this point."
Am I still "twisting" something here? If so, please point it out to me. Since you're that guy who's been through the bible "MANY" times as you say, you probably would be the most qualified to explain it. Edify me, don't tear me down!
You ask me where in the Bible does it say that in the early church men sat on one side and women on the other? You are right, it doesn't say that. I guess it wouldn't be twisting scripture if I read it elsewhere, so I'm safe there. And if you want an answer to that question, you can research it yourself. A man of your knowledge probably doesn't need my help finding the answer. Not everything we say has to be proven from the bible, unless of course it is the doctrine contained within.
More to follow.
You sir on the other hand would probably be pained to admit that you could be wrong. You speak about edification, but how is it edifying to anyone when your words seem so harsh. How does that build someone up?
I know what Paul said. I've read it. Women are not to pastor in the church, pretty simple! Being silent does not mean they can't speak at all. They just can't teach the men or be put in a position of authority over the men in the church.
More to follow.
God's Word tells us to edify those that are erring, in hopes that they will learn what His Word says and will turn from their own will to His. I have not been harsh whatsoever. If you are offended by God's Word, you have to take that up with Him , not me. Where do you see this verse(s) that tells Chritians to build up those that err?
I agree with you that you have quoted scripture as it is written. You quoted it perfectly, you just misapplied it! You probably feel that I've done the same, so where does that leave us? It's not what I say that is truth, and it's not what you say that is truth, and it is possible that we can both be wrong. God's word is truth, and if one of us is incorrect in our understanding, He will deal with that. Would you at least agree on that?
Also, do you see how the person who began this post could not have been the one teaching? We may never find out since the post was sent 4 years ago.
Who taught Timothy? 2 Timothy Chapter 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from [my] forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;
4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy;
5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
Timothy learned as a child from his mother and grandmother AT HOME, just like I did, At HOME.
One of the things I saw at my Christian School we can notice is that some gay men who have not 'come out of the closet' have very strong views about sex.
Have you noticed this?
David
Prove that using only scriptures ! That's a satanic lie. There was NEVER a woman priest in the Old Testament or the New Testament. I am helping the woman by edifying her with the scriptures to not teach. Women are to LEARN at home and to use this information to live godly lives and to not be an embarassment to their husbands.
And just where in the OT or NT does the scriptures tell anyone to do "family" prayers? That's not what Jesus, the Founder of Christianity, taught. This is what Jesus says about prayer.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. Matt 6:6
Y'a gotta think outside that little box of who does what.
No, when ya put aside the Scriptures, that's PRIDE and doing what is right in your own eyes. God wants HIS will to be done, not yours
I did not say women are to be priests in the home. Her role is in proverbs 31. I said in the absence of a husband who behaves as priest in the home... she will have to do it. If you know to do right and don't do it, the family suffers. How many of our children are living in a one parent home? Research that! You need to slow down and read what someone is commenting on before you come out with guns blazing.
Facts remain. Teach the kids to love God and obey Gods will for their lives. Not just Deuteronomy but all of Proverbs too.
You sound very angry with feminism. Like its got the world upside down.
I am guessing in the most part we have single mothers because the men got their kicks then ran away? And the women stayed.
How does that qualify men to be more able to teach??
May be men being in charge is upside down?
What do you think?
David
I copied it to a word document and sent it to my phone so I can read on the go. I have not been to that website in at least 10 years. I had forgotten all about it. From what I remember, there's some good information there. Thanks for sharing that. I will read it soon, Lord willing!
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