Ephesians Chapter 4 Discussion Page 3

Leigh, you've given some pertinent Scriptures on Water Baptism. What I find that churches today fail in (& I of course, refer to full immersion baptism) are the following:

a. why doesn't the person leading a lost soul to the Saviour, also baptize the person? I realize sometimes this would happen, but in most cases these days, the baptizee (one being baptized) is baptized by someone not connected to leading the soul to repentance. So who, from the biblical perspective & responsibility, should baptize the sinner? Is the Church fundamentally wrong in this, to allow another to baptize who was not a witness to the sinner's repentance?

b. why does the Church usually require the baptism enquirer to undergo a series of studies and/or interviews to ensure he knows the step he is about to take? Is this biblical? If the Pastor or Elder is unsure about the authenticity of the believer's testimony, can he in all good conscience baptize him?

c. why do we generally baptize within the Church building or property, when the other aspect of baptism is a public witness to a decision made & a changed life? I wouldn't say that fellow believers are true witnesses, rather they need to be the public or unsaved friends/relatives.

(see ongoing comment)

Leigh,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I'm okay with agreeing that water baptism matters, just not for salvation.

You are very wise for wanting to take God's word for what it says. I think deep down, that is the desire of us all. We all want to take the word for what it says. But what happens when we all take the same approach that you take and we take it for what it says and then we disagree with each other on what it says? What then? How would you explain that?

Paul, please believe me when I say I'm not trying to be rude, but I only asked four simple questions. If you are only going to answer one at a time, and each answer comes with another question for me to answer, it could take several days to answer those four questions. You can please disregard the remainder of my questions as I am beginning to sense that I'm being played. Since I have failed to figure out exactly what you are looking for and my responses have not been sufficient enough, I hope someone here can do a better job helping you understand, if understanding is truly what you're seeking.

Thank you for your well worded reply. Ok, one at a time. It is my understanding that disciple means 'taught one'. Is that your understanding? Paul

Can I say my Brothers, by the Word, it does seem water baptism does matter, there is a correct way, and in whose name we do know.

Acts 10:44

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

Acts 10:48| View Chapter| Context

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Acts 8:38| View Chapter| Context

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Both went down into the water and he baptised him.

Matthew 28:19| View Chapter| Context

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Did not even the Lord command us to go and teach all nations baptizing them in His name.

From the Word it is important, from the Word there was a way of doing it, from the Word we have been told to do it.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The Word is our absolute and that we all agree.

God bless you my Brothers, as for me, in humility to His Word, I want to take it just as He said it or moved His people to write It.

Paul, I thought I've given a good explanation of my understanding of both Spirit and water baptisms. Apparently, I am not giving you the answer you are looking for. So before I can go any further, what is your understanding of water baptism? Do you think it is necessary for salvation? What makes a person a saved person? Also, do you think a disciple means a saved person? I want to respond, but right now it's beginning to feel like you are beating around the bush to get me to give you the answer you are looking for, and I haven't given you that answer yet!

Hi Jesse. I understand you believe that water baptism is not necessary for salvation. That it is baptism by God through Holy Spirit that IS necessary. Wouldn't this take man out of the equation at Matt. 28:19-20? After all, it is the MEN that are making the disciples by means OF baptism. Or are you thinking that whether or not their baptism provides salvation is a matter to be determined by God? Thank you. Paul

Paul,

I am not sure I understand your question?

Yes, as a 'matter' of fact I did. However, there is something wrong with the link. I cannot review it. However, I would say that in the absence of matter, time is irrelevant. An abstraction.

PAUL: Did you get my reply couple of days ago about Matter?

Thank you again! Question. With regard to Matt. 28:19-20, how do men baptize men?

Before the work of Jesus on the Cross and the resurrection the old testament saints went to paradise in the center of the earth. There are many scriptural references to this fact.

Thief on the cross Luke 23:43

Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:20 through 24

1 Peter 3:9

Mathew 12:40

Paul , I think we might be disconnecting somehow and I'm probably not being clear in response. If so, I apologize for that. There are two baptisms, one physical (Human), and one from God (Spiritual). Only one is for salvation, and the other would be for public record, as a testimony of salvation.

1 Peter 3:21 is not referring to water baptism. Peter is quick to tell us that he's not talking about water baptism. Peter says (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God). Your conscience is clear, and you're living as He would have you to do. And then it says by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. More literally, it is through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That gives us the key because it says whereunto even baptism now saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So he's talking about Spirit baptism. It's the only one in the bible that says it is necessary for salvation.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:13 says for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, and we have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

When John the Baptist introduced Jesus as Messiah to Israel, he said that the Messiah's ministry would be the baptism of Spirit and fire.

Remember, baptism denotes two things, 1) Cleansing. If you are Spirit baptized, that is, when Christ comes into your spirit at salvation, your spirit is purified, cleansed of your sin. 2) Identification. It was more so in Paul's day than in ours. Whatever group you're going into, you get baptized. It shows that you're joining the group. But especially for Hebrew and Jewish people in Jerusalem that surrendered their life to Christ as their Messiah and Savior, they get baptized right there in Jerusalem, right in front of all the other Hebrew and Jewish people to show their identification.

If you are asking me if you should be water baptized, I would ask what is the Lord leading you to do. That would be the answer!

Thank you Jesse. You are saying that the baptism mentioned in 1 Pe. 3:21 does not need to be a matter of public record. Is this correct?

Larry, thank you for your kind and encouraging words, and also for the blessing. I send it right back to you. It is a fascinating study if you ever get a chance to research on-line Jewish baptisms, and how it differs from the way we baptize today. In Jesus' day, the person doing the baptizing didn't go in the water at all. So when John baptized Jesus, Jesus would have gone in the water alone. John was only there as a witness. But the person being baptized went in the water alone and they had to fully submerse themselves. If the witness would see just one hair not going completely under, that person would have to do it over again. But it is a fascinating study, along with reading Jewish lifestyles and practices, and how it parallels to the things Jesus presented during His earthly ministry.

Hi Paul, my answer would remain the same if we are asking if water baptism is a necessity for salvation. I would still say it is not necessary because water baptism comes after salvation.

I believe a person who is saved can go their entire life not being water baptized and still remain saved. We know from scripture that Jesus told the thief on the cross next to Him that today you will be with me in paradise. There is no biblical evidence showing that he was water baptized.

Now, is it a necessity after salvation? I think water baptism is very important for a believer. The early church seemed to see it as being important. The Jews ceremoniously baptized everything, pots and pans, dishes, etc. I think it is important to understand what water baptism represented to the Jews, and also to the early church. It represented two things: cleansing (not salvation), and also identification.

Being water baptized is required in a lot of churches in order to become a member of that particular group. Again, it represents your identification with that group of believers. But the most important representation of water baptism would be your identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's who we identify with in baptism, and that is our testimony to those who are there as witnesses that we are identifying with Jesus Christ. The water baptism is a Physical outward expression of an inward Spiritual change. I believe it is a necessary part of a believer's life, but not required for salvation.

Thank you and God bless

Thank you ,I never knew that about Jews how they done it wow God bless you and your family .your friend in Christ

Thank you for your reply. I may have misunderstood. Do you believe that water baptism is a necessity?

I would say that our life Today, is the reason for the baptism in Matthew 28:19-20.

Hello Paul,

Matt. 28:19-20 is speaking of water baptism. However, water baptism does not save a person. There has to be a spiritual baptism or Spiritual birth. Back in Matt. 3:11, John says, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

You see, John baptized with water. But Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Salvation), and with fire. And fire baptism is a baptism of judgment. That's not the baptism we want! A person who gets water baptized should already be saved. Water baptism is a testimony before others that there has been an inward change in their life (Spirit baptism).

I hope this is what you are asking. If, not I would be happy to respond back if you're looking for something else.

Amen that's a good thing , I guess what I was trying to ask is when you are baptized should you be baptized in the name of the Father in the Son and the Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus ?

He Jesse. This Paul would like to know the meaning of Matt. 28:19-20 with regard to your comment. Thank you.

Hello Larry,

Paul says one baptism! He is not talking about sprinkling or immersing. It was Paul who said in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12, Verse 13 that we are all baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ.



It is a Hebrew phrase that Paul used to describe the salvation process, that when the Holy Spirit comes into a person's life, they are cleansed.

And baptism also means identification. In 1 Corinthians Chapter 10, the people in the wilderness were baptized unto Moses. There wasn't any baptism ceremony. But when they identified with him and went through the Red Sea, they called it baptism. It's identification.

But there's only one baptism that saves. That's the baptism of God's Spirit. And there's one God, Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in you all.

Do you get the idea that he's trying to say we're pretty much covered? He's in us, He's through us, and He's around us!

KJV. Ephesians 4:5 One Lord,One faith, One baptism.My question is what is that one baptism?

Luke 6:29: "& unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek, offer also the other; & him that taketh away thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also". When Jesus spoke those words, He showed the example of love and non-retaliation that we as believers need to exhibit to those who despise us.This is a great testimony of the love of Christ that no man can speak against. It IS hard to perform, especially in a culture where the opposite is the norm, but we are called to live on a higher plane. You are right: to pray for them ( Mt 5:44), to speak gently to them ( Prov 15:1), & give them space to reflect & maybe reconcile ( Mt 5:24). And to "offer your coat" meant that one would be cold in the Winter.

My grandmother always taught my cousins and me to turn the other cheek, but it is a challenge when you have people during your life time that you don't like, even now. God is testing us and I put my faith in him and just pray for that person(s) and just move on. Life is too short. God is love!!

Angry is a passive word. Meaning be ye being angered. Moses is the best example Num. 20 God rebuked him for his unbelief and in ps 106 God was not pleased with that expression. Eph 4 says put away all anger. If we would believe God is truly working all all all thing for good we would not sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin! This is my view on this and God is giving me victory through this.

In ephesians 4:29, the corrupt communication is speaking of communications of the gospel that is mixed with law. Mixing law with grace, or anything of the carnal mind, as written in romans 8:6-7. One must be born-again or else the regeneration can not take place. Without Christ in us, we are without hope. With him in us we are the righteousness of God.

If we walk in perfected love we would not notice others actions. Read 1st John 4:17. We need to let our love cover their multitude of sin 1st Peter 4:8