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Robert, thank you for the time you've taken for such a detailed reply. Just to pick up on some things in reference to the Dan 9 account. And I'm trying to think not as a pre-tribber or any other 'tribber', but look at the verses in their context.
a. You: "There are TWO princes mentioned in this passage. One is Titus (secular little prince) and the other Jesus the Messiah, the Prince of peace." (v26).
Me: Yes, I do agree with you on that, but when we get to verse 27 & we see "And he shall confirm the covenant with many", this is where divergent opinions arise on who "he" is. Some say that it speaks of Jesus, others, Anti-Christ. For those referring it to Jesus, I sought understanding as to His "confirming the Covenant FOR ONE WEEK (7 Years) & causing the sacrifice & oblation to cease, etc." If it was Jesus, how & when did this happen at His coming & His death, as all things continued the same way with the Jews? If it referred to the "Prince that shall come", then it spoke about, either evil Titus at his coming in AD 70, or that spirit that was in him, to be revealed in the Anti-Christ.
Now, I realize that you've also given a fuller explanation of this & it is noted & appreciated. However, to fully appreciate both sides of understanding verse 27 (whether speaking of Jesus or Anti-Christ), we would need to understand "confirming the covenant", "for one week (7 years)", & a "ceasing & removal of the sacrifices & abominations". You've said that Jesus affirmed the promise through the Gospel (how so for 7 years?), the sacrifices/oblations ceased through His death & resurrection, & the desolation of the abominations at His Second Coming (I assume).
GENEVA BIBLE)
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
JOHN WESLEY:
Daniel 9:27
He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant, By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. By his preaching. By signs and wonders. By his holy life. By his resurrection and ascension. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.
CHECK OUT ALSO MATTHEW HENRY, JOHN GILL, etc. Matthew Henry is probably the best Bible commentator of all time.
Me: Isn't the chapter about Jesus confirming THE covenant (verses 24 and 25)? It's all about that. to make an end of sins, THE TESTATOR must die in order for the will or covenant to become in affect. All over Hebrews.
A future antichrist is going to use this passage to deceive and he (Satan right now) has deceived the masses already by teaching this out of context. So will there be a third temple built? Probably but it isn't going to be God's will. God gave Israel a king that they wanted and He will give them the false messiah they want too. Modern Israel persecutes the church to this day but stirring up stuff in the Middle East whcih always results in Christians getting persecuted INADVERTANTLY by the Muslims, losing their homes and on occasion being killed. They have always persecuted the church throughout history. WE are told it was the other way around but you won't find that in history. You will find that the Roman Catholic Church persecuted both Protestants and Joos but true Christians are being given the blame for what they didn't do. Muslims blame true Christians for killing them too when it was the Roman Church behind it.
Sacrifices were no longer needed after Jesus' death. To teach it is God's will to go back to them when He never wanted them in the first place but it was temporary as we are told in Hebrews and Daniel TILL ( Daniel 9:24-27) the Messiah should come - that 490 year timeline.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
We also have the angel that is going about with the EVERLASTING GOSPEL in Revelation. So when someone says the Joos can be saved by grace and keeping the law during a future time period they are contradicting dozens of passages in both the old and new testaments.
1. Joos were only saved ONE way during Jesus time- grace through faith through Christ. No other way.
2. These same Joos began to spread the gospel.
3. Joos for the last 2,000 years have been saved by grace.
So why does this change all of a sudden if Jesus was the final Lamb sacrifice that could take away the sins of the world? Blood from bulls and goats only took away sins for ONE year. You could not be born again until Jesus.
God Bless.
Me: It is Jesus. "People of Jesus (the prince) that shall come to destroy?" in verse 26 was fulfilled in 70 AD when Titus became a prince over night. There are TWO princes mentioned in this passage. One is Titus (secular little prince) and the other Jesus the Messiah, the Prince of peace.
I encourage you to read Mathew chapters 20, 21, 22, and 23 without thinking like a pre-trib rapture person.
Parable of the Tenants for example: WHO sends armies against Judah? God the Father does because they killed His Son.
WHO cursed the fig tree?
These last two verses in this chapter in Daniel 9 (verses 26 and 27) interject TWO main things. The New Covenant being established and the destruction of the second temple; therefore, placing the timing of the COMING OF THE MESSIAH the first time (first advent) before the 70 weeks or 490 years expired. It is impossible for any jewish person to not have known Jesus was the Messiah as He came at the end of the 70 weeks. It is the best passage to evangelize Joos but if one holds a pre-trib position and that is over 97% of Americans they are throwing that opportunity away.
The whole purpose and context of this passage is about Messiah and the destruction of the 2nd temple.
To make an END of sins (verse 24). WHO made an end of sins and put an end to the sacrifice and oblation in verse 27? Jesus did. Why is the word abomination in there and is plural? Because the Jooish priesthood went back to doing animal sacrifices therefore rejecting the Messiah totally and right back to the vineyard renters in Matthew killing the vineyard owners Son.
Makes me think of John 3:8
The wind Blows where it listeth , and Thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
me: amen bro. I am sure glad ot meet brothers like you. It doesn't happen too often.
All of us older folks should bless the church teens with what they need to spread some love around the neighborhood; if the Church will allow it."
Me:be the example and hope othrs follow
Then be praying for your Pastor to hear from God every time he prays and gets his sermon ready for whatever day your Church chooses to assemble on.
me: I couldn't handle a lot of false doctrine and/or compromise anymore. I quit going to church about 3 years ago and started a home bible study. This is where a lot of the church is going to have to go to as things get worse. The home churches in China is why the gospel spread so fast there. State churches there are for show and tell so Christianized nations will do business with China thinking there is no persecution anymore. 99.99% of all churches n America are state churches (501c3) putting themselves under Caesar as the head instead of Christ. We will continue to see them compromise more and more.
Also, I have been marginalized at every church I went to. I couldn't use my gifts at the SBC church because I didn't JOIN their hierarchy which is borderline communism now and was going that route for about 15 years. Now they are into social justice. I went to a Pentecostal church for a whole year, and was very friendly toward people every week and couldn't make one friend. Worship there wsa awesome; preaching was decent and doctrinally sound for the most part but it was a click. I wonder how many people left there feeling they were not a part of the assembly.
"I'm an old street preacher too. Lately I have noticed unique ways people distribute Chick Tracts and others:
me: i was saved by reading Chick tracts.
Outside of a goodwill store I saw one on top of a trash can. Looked brand new. First I almost wept because someone threw away Gods Word. Got in my car and was praying out the pain; and I saw someone throw paper in the can and pick up the tract and take it with them.
me. God gets it done. I put them everywhere. Satan can't throw all the seed away.
I see tracts on the sidewalk (out of the foot traffic somewhat) and people pick them up!!
I've seen them on park or bus benches.
I know street ministry is still alive and well!
me: yes, satan can't stop it. I need to get back to carrying the cross. that opens doors. my back hurts pretty bad though. I have an awesome plan that could get the gospel to 1,000's in literally one day.
Almost everyone will read a Chick comic type booklet. They're inexpensive too.
me: got about 8,000 on the shelf still. This was Your Life tract.
I know they pray over them and ask God to lead people to them. He is the Lord of the Harvest! I hope more people will do this.
me: most Christians will not which Spurgeon said you can't be saved if you don't care about the lost. They are afraid to lose friends to even talk to them about the gospel.
Outside of a goodwill store I saw one on top of a trash can. Looked brand new. First I almost wept because someone threw away Gods Word. Got in my car and was praying out the pain; and I saw someone throw paper in the can and pick up the tract and take it with them.
I see tracts on the sidewalk (out of the foot traffic somewhat) and people pick them up!!
I've seen them on park or bus benches.
I know street ministry is still alive and well!
Almost everyone will read a Chick comic type booklet. They're inexpensive too.
I know they pray over them and ask God to lead people to them. He is the Lord of the Harvest! I hope more people will do this.
There's even space on it to write your Church's name and address on it.
Then be praying for your Pastor to hear from God every time he prays and gets his sermon ready for whatever day your Church chooses to assemble on.
Makes me think of John 3:8
The wind Blows where it listeth , and Thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
All of us older folks should bless the church teens with what they need to spread some love around the neighborhood; if the Church will allow it.
What the Lord can do with His trusting children!"
Awesome! Have you ever wrote this down in article form- like 2 to 5 pages long? I would love to send this out to my email-blast readers in Ohio and beyond. I try to encourage people to share their faith. Most are not risking their lives adn should be willing to share the gospel with those around them but 98% do not share their faith regularly.
I could use prayer for stomach problems and back. Found out I was born with a mild form of spina bifida and now understand why I started dealing with back issues as early as my early-30's. I will be 53 soon. Prayers appreciated. I do believe God still heals. He did heal me of a problem in my early walk. David's ministry is called Acts17apologetics. he has almost 500,000 subscribers now. maybe you can team up with him on evangelism. He does debates also.
I'm sure you too have many great stories to tell in your encounters with those of other faiths. And all these are not to bring us into the limelight, but all praise to the Lord Who superintends our ways.
My best stories were in my youth. I hit the streets with gospel tracts when I was 16 with two other hippies at that time. People were so much more receptive back then. Hearts are getting hard with many. It's cool when the Holy Spirit shows up with a divine appointment or you get a word of knowledge. I've been doing most of my evangelism online for about 10 years now. Built a 12 x 6 cross in 2007 that we went around with. that was interesting. "Hey, Jesus didn't have a wheel." It opened up doors as people came to you. My zeal isn't where it was when I was younger in the Lord. I want thta back. I think about, "Why bother anymore? People don't care about the things of God or care to repent and come to Christ" and then I think what if Jesus had that attitude int he Garden of Gethsemane? I guess I and maybe you too don't always feel like sharing the gospel but we must press on even on the days we dont' feel like it. Pray for me for more zeal.
I'm sure you too have many great stories to tell in your encounters with those of other faiths. And all these are not to bring us into the limelight, but all praise to the Lord Who superintends our ways.
I remember at one time in Karachi, Pakistan, my team were out on our daily book sales & tract distribution to Muslims. I wasn't having a good day, so thought to try for a sale at a bookshop. The owner was so interested in my literature, he bought my whole shoulder bag full of books & tracts! So, I went back to the team empty-handed & with praise for what the Lord had done. But, the Lord's Ways were beyond my limited sight at that time. On my way back from that sale, I turned around for some reason & noticed that that wasn't an ordinary bookshop, but was one attached to a Mosque & the central point for the sale of Islamic literature. Had I been aware of this fact, I would have quickly retreated, but the Lord had other plans for me & them. So, the Lord in His Providence had directed me to a Mosque to sell Christian books, they bought everything, they then sold those books unknowingly to other Muslims responding to the call for prayer (i.e. they helped in getting out the Word when I couldn't), & there may well be lost souls now finding the Saviour's Love. Jer 32:27: "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" What an amazing God we serve, Who just needed a pair of hands & legs to get His Word out to those appointed to Life. And a little 'icing on the cake': I got out of there with my life & He also answered our prayers that morning as we had all but run out of cash to survive.
What the Lord can do with His trusting children!
ME NOW: This is one of the reasons why I say the church will be here as the church has read this passage many times and it was relevant tot he first century church and it seems to be becoming relevant to the last generation whcih I believe we are.
YOU: As I have done to a lesser extent than you, in ministry to Muslims in Pakistan, who likewise discount the whole Bible as 'filled with errors' in 'light of the revelation given by the Quran'. My approach has always been to begin on common ground (on which there is much) & even using the Quran to establish foundational truths, so that progress (= more light) can be made & seen. Of course, one's own knowledge has to be very good & the hearer must also be inclined to learn. Sadly, deficiency in both areas, prevents a meaningful discourse taking place."
ME: Awesome! God is reaching a lot of muslims right now. I do talk to a few of them myself but I am sure not like you. We may not see the fruit of our efforts till we get to the otherside. So we keep on trucking for Jesus. You never know who you will reach. Do you ever listen to apologetics 17. He can be a let rough on Muslims be he is reaching them. David Woods is his name. I do the common ground thing with Muslims and go ahead with saying Isa adn then proving through Old Testament prophecies that Isa had to be the Messiah and had to die. David is rough, brash and tough but God is using it with him. I can't believe he hasn't been killed yet.
I found out last week that a lot of the mystical side of Judaism has taught that God has a son except they call him Metatron. Many fo the prophecies Jesus fulfilled they attribute to Metatron. I was blown away. It is the modern day judaism that has attacked this idea. The mystics at least got that right.
"ME ORIGINALLY: "I believe there is a double fulfillment with many things in this chapter that we in our time will experience, one of those being preaching the gospel to the whole world."
YOU: This is probably where a lot of error & misunderstanding comes up: how to dissect correctly what has been fulfilled & what is yet to come. In our natural mind, we tend to read things as a developing story, & so what was prophesied to occur prior to & at the arrival/destruction by the Roman Army in AD70, then also speaks about a great tribulation, which no doubt meant great suffering to the Jews at that time (i.e. from Mt 24:20 to the change in v 21). And the thought of the great tribulation is continued from there to v31, which clearly hasn't happened in its fullest sense.
me NOW:
This is why I hold to a double fulfillment. I believe that Bible allows for that at times as God used shadows and types in the Old Test. of future things that would take place. Abraham giving of his first son; God giving of us Son for one example of hundreds.
YOU: So much speculation arises, different teaching, & sometimes a trail of confused believers as to what is actually going on here. I just have to accept that post Cross, there was & will always be much suffering from the hands of wicked men (spirit of anti-Christ), & we must simply believe that all the prophecies given must be fulfilled according to the declarations by God.
ME: Amen bro. Jesus promised us suffering, and persecution. Those of us living in 'better' countries have just been pretty much lucky up till about now. I have been persecuted in the USA to some small degree and falsely accused of something I didn't do. I got a little taste of it.
The fourth horseman has a fifth rider. My take on this is this is the false prophet and the antichrist. They have not been revealed yet. Time will tell Aidan.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Notice the pronoun THEM in verse 8. "...Power given unto THEM..."
DEATH=ANTICHRIST
HELL= FALSE PROPHET.
How I see it. Notice 5th seal. Many Christians will be killed BECAUSE OF THEM of the fourth seal. There are 5 riders fo the apocalypse. 4th seal is riders 4 and 5. Everyone ignores that fifth rider in their theology.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
You are a Christian right?
God Bless.
We know the one plague is before Jesus comes back and it says 5 months long. It is literally giving the number of months and we wouldn't add to that.
God Bless.
There is one prophet who is one of the two witnesses
We support two preachers that occasionally go and preach in Jerusalem. They get kicked, spit on, lives threatened, threatened with imprisonment which would happen if we didn't send so much money over there. Nothing has changed over there. Anyhow, maybe they are the two. We just don't know.
One of the guys we support we just noticed recently went to about 15 major US Cities wearing sackloth calling America to repent. He has seen in vision Russian planes flying over America. Years ago Pastor David Wilkerson in 1973 gave a long 50 minute prophecy and just about everything came to pass now. One was US Cities burning. The church must repent first.
Many American Christians are doing wickedly-they help steal land from Christian Palestinians, and many are sending money to build a 3rd temple (enough has already been sent to build 7 temples) when God made an end of sacrifice in 30 AD and destroyed all attempts since in 70 AD and again in 363 AD with tornadoes, earthquakes and fire coming from beneath every time they tried to rebuild under Emperor Julians' command to go rebuild. The church has much to repent of that is blasphemy in the eyes of God so we WILL see judgment if things don't change. These are just a few of the sins no one wants to talk. There is a pretty high rate of woman in the church having abortions now. That was unheard of 30 years ago. We in the church shouldn't need an Elijah or Moses to bring us to repentance. WE should search our hearts regularly. Judgment begins at the house of God. We need to be praying about getting our own lives right INDIVIDUALLY. I say individually because we are seeing the great apostasy Jesus said would happen as one of the last signs already in the churches, Bible colleges, etc. Jerusalem is not going to be the only nation judged in the end ( Revelation 11); all nations will be judged.
There is no medal of valor for being left behind! Skip the whole thing by bending your knee to Jesus Christ NOW !!
All the people left on earth will be slaves to Antichrist. People who want to slaughter billions of people. It's the Holocaust to the 10th Power.
You wouldn't come to Jesus when it was easy. You wouldn't read His love letter (the Bible), when it was being given away on street corners.....
You can confess God at any time during the Tribulation and be saved: but you're still stuck on earth, facing certain destruction of your earthly body.
Trust Jesus now!!!!!! PRIDE is one of the six sins that God Hates. Why? Because it hurts you!
Little detour here. I want you to experience what JOY it is to be turned on to Jesus. If y'a like a Little Rock music? Have a listen to a song by Darrell Mansfield on YouTube:
BIBLE STUDY.
A lot of you think heaven is going to be ultra orthodox southern Baptist, but I don't think so!
Check it out kids. It's kids getting in trouble for the Right Thing! :D
Since you're there already, listen to Our Time Now, by Carman. All true.
Love you guys
Remember how Moses and Aaron stood before Pharoah? MY opinion.
YOu:
I thick satans time is the tribulation and gods one year of wrath is the great tribulation,Before gods year of wrath the true believers are either dead or are being taken care of because they will not endure gods wrath,The one year of gods wrath could also be part of the last seven years or else satans time gods one year and jesus time are the last seven years."
Me:
Persecution, tribulation adn suffering is what the church goes through. Great tribulation is Satans' wrath. I see it this way after many years of study.
Three wraths.
1. FIRST WRATH: Satan's wrath or what we call in modern times Great Tribulation which is 3 1/2 years
2. SECOND WRATH: God the Father's wrath poured out on the wicked with plagues to try to bring the last few to repentance. This time period I don't see a specific number of years. We know the one plague lasts 5 months and it is on the wicked but there are 6 more plagues. Could it be another 3 1/2 years? Yes. But I don't see where the Bible states that. It's possible God the Father's wrath will only be 2 years but could also be over a 10 to 20 year time period for all we know. I just don't see ONE New Testament scripture that gives an exact time period so I don't want to be dogmatic on that.
3. THIRD WRATH: The Son of God'S WRATH. The Son of God comes to earth right before rapturing us off at the end of the the Father's wrath. He comes with a rod of iron and this of course is called The DAY of the Lord. I'm open to this to being more than ONE day but I would think it would last ONE day because Jesus, 2/3rds of the angels and all the saints are coming and it won't take long to bring justice with an army that vast and having ALL POWER.
this is how I see it trying to not add or take away from scripture. I don't want to read into it eisogetically.