Genesis Chapter 19 Discussion Page 2

You could be sure if you googled:

"King James Bible, History"

The Gospels were written by 4 of Jesus's Disciples. Peter wrote some, Paul, 1-2-3 John, Jude (Jesus' 1/2 brother), and others who traveled with Jesus.

Eyewitness accounts should count for Truth.

People say to me all the time: well why doesn't Jesus do something like split the Red Sea again, or split some lake in the USA?!

That's not going to convince you. Almost everyone in here has been born again and tells their own testimonies of how they came to believe. There's even a link on the Red Link Page named: TESTIMONIES. Another link is called BECOME A BELIEVER, so you can see what that involves.

What do you have FAITH in? Make a list. Sometimes it's helpful.

2 Peter chapter 3 says that this world as we know it is going to be burned up. God I'd going to cleanse all the harm that mankind has damaged it with.

ITS NOT GLOBAL WARMING. The earth is responding to what scripture says is going to happen. No amount of money can save this earth. Politicians know there's a problem; they just don't want to believe God is going to do it.

I want to CHALLENGE you to listen to a sermon from one of my preacher friends. He's from Texas; a lot older now (like me) but this sermon may change your mind?

YouTube Search: Dwight Thompson

The video to choose is: 1hour and 55 minutes

Title: the Rapture and What To Do If You Miss It?

Like me, he's an old Evangelist. He can get loud, but he's gonna give it to you straight, no frills.

I'm praying for you to find faith in the Son of God, Jesus, before it's too late. May the Holy Spirit watch the video with you. Amen

I know this has nothing to do with Genesis, but I didn't know if I can ask questions from my heart, but if we don't know when the Lord is going to come to earth, which I know is called Judgement Day, how do we know he died in the first place?

Sometimes the Lord has us pray and witness for years and years before we get the privilege of seeing our prayers answered. Other times we pray and pray and may not see the answer in this lifetime. I know people who have prayed for unsaved loved ones up until they died and then after that event the answer to prayer comes to the one prayed for.

I prayed for 35 years for one person to get help for bi-polar disorder. He was involved in criminal matters and crimes against persons. He should have been in prison for some of these offenses and there he would have been forced into a treatment plan. Finally God had him meet a woman who convinced him to get treatment and after getting treatment, they married when he was about 50. He continues in treatment and has not had terrible episodes like in the past since beginning treatment.

Thank you GiGi for sharing those very intimate matters. Maybe, there's a lot we don't understand & we just have to be there to pray, guide & counsel, as we're led or allowed to. May the Lord minister in & through you as you have opportunity to meet with your sisters. The Lord can & does move in 'mysterious ways' & we must but trust Him for 'His wonders to perform'.

Thanks Chris,

I really can't say what influenced my sisters or how it came about that the enemy deceived them. I also know of a friends in laws, the dad is a pastor and one son is in ministry, but a sister and brother are homosexuals. They probably had a loving upbringing in a Christian home and still they were drawn into the lifestyle. Some things we will not be able to know but we can continue to pray and stand firm. Over the years my sisters have not had much to do with me because they know of my strong faith. One year, my sister who is 16 months older than me called me out of the blue and wanted to meet with me. We met and she shared that it bothered her that I could not accept her relationship with her partner, since I had declined to attend a commitment ceremony for their 25th yr. together, and I wrote why I could not attend.

We had a good discussion. much was said that got a lot of things out inn the open. We then meet monthly for dinner for a year or so to get to know each other more since we are sisters. She mentioned how nervous she was to first try to get to know me , but that now after she knew me better she realized I was a very kindhearted person and "safe" for her even though I still said I would continue to pray for her. (she did not like that) We now see each other a few times a year, but not as I would someone who shares my faith in Christ. My other two sisters have never initiated a conversation with me about their lifestyle and I have not spoken to them about it. I think it is up to them to reveal things to me. I am sure they feel uncomfortable about doing that and are concerned about what I might say. I treat them kindly when we have family events,, but don't feel right about entering their home or being very relational with them unless they would ask for it. I am sure they have talked with my other sister about our meetings that took place 15 years ago. It's different and I try to follow the lead of the Spirit only in interacting or not

Yes, David, I agree it is wholly spiritual. With today's society being so much open to "different" lifestyles, I can see that people are being led into these deceptive and degrading lifestyles more than in the time my sisters grew into adulthood. "cool" to be in such lifestyles and "special". So sad. It is very difficult for people to leave this lifestyle to follow Jesus once they have developed their identity in it. Sodom shows us that.

That was so sad to read GiGi about your sisters. I've not had much experience in dealing with those who have homosexual tendencies, though from what I've observed, there has usually been some tragedy that they have faced, or an environment that caused them to be drawn to those of the same gender, or even a very strong continuous grooming to that end, with experimentation. I would even think that facing rejection or abuse might cause one to 'turn', but I couldn't conceive that one born into this world normally & given a good balanced love-filled life, would one day decide to turn to the other gender. I can't even envisage that this would be a matter of choice such as in choosing what clothes to wear tomorrow, rather of some turmoil in the life that has caused one's affections to go in such manner. But I've never studied this, so my comments are simply my own & to be taken as such. Though it's remarkable that all three of your older siblings have gone that way - there maybe a common thread in there somewhere.

But if we are continually faced with worldly offerings & our peers or the majority voice are readily accepting them, then it would take a very strong character with godly principles to withstand or even giving them any concession. And with the majority who might ridicule the resistant one, the pressure & pain becomes even worse. Praise God for His Word which reveals His Mind & so we know that our stand against evil has His affirmation, which gives us boldness & confidence.

Homosexuality is spiritual in nature nobody is born that way and it is not genetic this is a lie of the world I know of a few believers that got delivered from that stuff. Something to always keep in mind we wrestle not against flesh and blood Ephesians 6:12 it is always spiritual in nature also 2 Corinthians 4:18.

Thanks for your thoughts. After posting this I read the the gates of the city was just what you said. Lot may have lived inside the city walls or outside. In excavating the site that is thought to be Sodom, there was found settlement both Inside the walls and outside. I am sure Lot began to slowly compromise his viewpoints and actions the longer he stayed with these people. I see that in my Mom and her views about homosexuality over the years due to spending time with my sisters who and their partners. When I was a teenager, she believed homosexuality is sinful, but now after so many years of interacting with my lesbian sisters, she has compromised her viewpoint. Granted, my sisters have many good qualities and have been very helpful to my Mom. So, now, in her later years (she just turned 88) she states the oft spoken "I think they were born that way." I continue to pray for my sisters and Mom. There whole personage is wrapped up in this identity. To turn away from it would mean leaving their spouse and forsaking who they have been for 50+ years. This is a big spiritual struggle. I have yet to meet a family that has three homosexual members like mine. Family gatherings happen and we attend for my Mom's sake). But my younger siblings and I talk to each other about how uncomfortable we are around our sisters, especially when their spouses attend. Just kind of weird to me, but i am thankful that I have been spared this influence when I in my teen years and more so that I was a strong believer and God has used me to be one who stands in the gap for my family for all these years.

They have found what apparently is the pillar of salt and in that location because of the deposits left in the area brimstone and evidence of ground incineration from a cataclysmic event. In addition they have also found the remnants of noahs ark.

Thanks Chris,

I am not very informed about customs from this area of the world now or in the past.

I had never thought about Lot having four daughters, but I can see that possibility.

Maybe the married daughters would not leave if their husbands said "no"

Lots daughters sleeping with there father is Sodom and Gomorrah influence rubbing off. You can't hang in garbage for that long and not get stinky so to speak. That's their unbelief coming out also Sodom and Gomorrah also practiced beastiality and incest not good.

I understand that when "Lot sat in the gate of Sodom" ( Genesis 19:1), this was a significant place for administration, welcoming visitors, or for policing/judgement. I've thought of Lot as having integrated himself well into that society & even risen to a level of holding a venerable position before its citizens. One can compare the use of the 'gate' in 2 Samuel 19:8; Esther 5:13; Psalm 69:12; Proverbs 22:22.

And in truth, the sins of Sodom were probably far more rampant in its many forms & intensities, that would have moved God in such a mighty way against that city's inhabitants. And even today, peoples & governments all over the world scoff & scorn the Word of God & the coming Day of Great Wrath upon them. Man will never learn, 'professing themselves to be wise, they showed themselves, fools'.

In eastern culture, the guest is given a highly honourable status, even higher than members of the family. In very 'traditional' families in India & Pakistan, the guest(s) will eat only with the man of the house (& maybe his sons) - the women & children will only eat later of the food that is remaining. If the men have been ravenous, the women would have to do without. And of course, the guest is always served first, having first choice of the food presented to him. So, we can well understand Lot's singular focus to ensure the safety & happiness of these divine guests. Yet, as you wrote, "such a sad offer" by Lot in presenting his daughters; if he was entirely noble & caring for his family, he should have rather offered himself.

And to note, I assume that Lot had at least four daughters: two married to his sons & the two virgins living with their parents & who were offered to the 'beasts of Sodom'. So, not only Lot's sons-in-law, but also their wives may have disbelieved this angelic warning & rather stay in the city to which their hearts were completely devoted.

With all this said, the two sons born to these daughters grew to become two nations that relentlessly opposed the lineage of Abraham. Is this because they were very aware of that Abraham's lineage was the covenant people and they were excluded? Were they envious of God's special favor upon Abraham's descendants, since they were Abraham's relatives through Lot? This seems to repeat with Ishmael and Esau. They just couldn't stand that they were not included in God's covenant. And so, they turned to wickedness rather than seeking God.

Many people have made many comments concerning homosexuality. My three older siblings are homosexuals. This sinful deception stopped with me and my younger siblings and myself are hetero. I was unaware of my older siblings lifestyle at first, but once I was out of college I figured it out. I often asked "Why God guarded me and not them". It seems He set me apart for a reason. I was glad I was not very close to these sisters and so I did not hang out with the people they did when they were teens. That sphere of people were an influence on them to pursue this lifestyle. Many were the same age as my sisters or older. They are still friends with many of these people to this day after 50+ years.

I think that homosexuality is planted into innocent, vulnerable, impressionable young people by the devil through people who groom them or have similar feelings in common. That is what I saw with my sisters. When I recall the times (the 70's) and the situation (good athletes they played sports with) it was a ripe situation. When they were in junior high and high school, girls who excelled at athletics were seen as unsuitable to have as a girlfriend. So, they were not sought after by the boys around them. Other than basketball and tennis, they participated in other sports outside of high school. It was in these outside situations that they met their "mentors". My parents had no clue that this was the case.

I have always prayed for them over the years

to continue: If lot's wife had simply died and decayed in that place. Lot could have come back and buried her, therefore eliminating the graphic, and tangible reminder of why God destroyed the cities of the plain. To me, I don't see any significance of her being made into salt. But I'm open for someone's input from research. From what I understand, it is believed that Sodom and Gomorrah are submerged beneath the Dead Sea, which is exceedingly saline. People float in this sea due to the buoyance of the salt in the water. How apropos that the sea is named the "Dead" sea and that it is full of salt. There must have been a great deal of salt in the hail and brimstone! The destruction was so intense that Abraham could see the smoke from the mountain where he had his tent home. He probably wondered about Lot. Was he safe?

Interesting that he went back to the place where he stood with the Lord to view the event that day.

It doesn't say if the mountain cave that Lot and his daughters was near to Abraham or not. I think it was further east. It is apparent that they did not feel very safe even in the mountains. They must have felt alone, but did not want to return to Zoar, which was spared. then, his daughters hatched a plan that they knew their father would never go along with. Lot made a mistake to drink with his daughters two nights in a row. They must have been traumatized, which can lead people to make irrational choices, overlooking the sinfulness of these choices. The daughters engaged in incest with their fathers. They didn't think that they would find anyone to carry on the family line. They didn't wait on God, like Sarah and Abraham with Hagar. I do not know what they meant by "as is the custom of all of the earth". Did it refer that the custom was that of sexual union between a man and woman, unlike the people of Sodom and Gomorrah or the customs was for daughters to have relations with their father in order to continue to lineage if the father had no sons.

to continue: the townsmen were now determined to deal more harshly with Lot than they had hoped to be with the visitors. They were going to sexually assault Lot in a worse way. Thankfully, the angels knew what the men were set to do and pulled Lot back inside and secured the door. Next, an effort was made to convince other family members to flee with them. They declined. Most likely they were born and raised in this city. They though Lot was joking. They were scoffers. They were obviously not concerned about the safety of their brides to be or Lot and his wife from the mob. Perhaps they were even a part of the mob. Must have been sad for Lot and family to realize that they would not heed their warning and go with them. I love that the text said the the Lord was merciful to this family.

When morning came, the angels said. "Hurry!" They stalled a bit too long and the angels had to grab them by their hands and pull them out of the city. Once outside the angels said that destruction was imminent and they needed to flee in order to escape for their lives and not be consumed. They implored Lot and family to go all the way to the mountains. Lot expressed a preference to go to another city in the plain instead. The angels brought them to this city, Zoar, but the devastation was going to be so extensive that they did need to flee to the mountains after all. On the way out of Zoar, the hail and brimstone began to rain down. They were warned not to look back, but Lot's wife did. I think it was really hard not to look back when disaster is on your heels. Unfortunately for Lot's wife, she was turned into an pillar of salt.

I wonder if anyone has found this pillar of salt in this area from any archeological digs. Anyone know? Some people ask why a pillar of salt? I think that the pillar of salt was God's reminder to God's people not to sin as those in Sodom and Gomorrah did. Lot's stone wife was a memorial stone.

The two angels were holy angels, not fallen, so would not have anything to do with the people of these cities. They were there to rescue the remnant of God's people, Lot and family, no one else, even the the angels mentioned sons and sons-in -law. These men did not wish to come with Lot and the women. The angels had to forcibly take Lot and the women out of the city,, taking them by the hand and compelling them to flee. Perhaps Lot and family were concerned about family members being left behind. maybe they wanted to plead with them more. The sinfulness of the city vexed Lot, so I don't think it was the city people he didn't want to leave, but members of his family who refused to agree to go with them. They mocked him.

Going back to the arrival of the angels and the shouts of the men of the city to have access to the visitors and violate them sexually. Rightly, Lot refused. these people were trying to force their way into Lot's home. He tried to appease them by offering his daughters for them to violate. (Such a sad offer!) He was desperate. He knew the visitors were holy angels and valued their purity over his daughters. Some will disagree with me, but he was right to want to preserve the integrity of the angels, but wrong to offer his daughters. It is easy during a siege to make rational decisions. he probably regretted offering his daughters but was thankful the men declined. He did not realize that the angels can take care of themselves without his help. I think he was unaware of their power. But these holy beings shut the door and secured it against a mob and blinded the members of the group outside so that they could not find the door. I think that is significant. Their blindness made it so that they could not find the door. Also, Just as God had shut Noah up in the ark, these angels shut Lot's family up in his house by which they escaped the deluge of wicked men. The townsmen were outraged that Lot would try to judge them since he was an outsider.

Greetings in the name of Jesus, our Lord, The Holy One of Israel;

I have read all of the comments on this chapter and admit that this is a disturbing chapter. But then again, should it be more disturbing to us that in Genesis when Adam and Eve sinned? No, not really. However, are the sins of Sodom and Gomorah grave sins? Yes! Primarily, the sin of homosexuality. The text highlights this sin when God was ready to bring judgement on these cities. Some asked why Lot was sitting at the gates to the city. I think that his home was most likely outside of the gates of the city. he was in a way "separated" from the inhabitants of the city. I think at first when me chose these plains to live and tend his flocks, Lot continued in the ways of the faith that Abraham brought him up in under Abraham's guardianship. These people lived in tends and travelled around the area to keep their flocks fed and watered. At some point Lot built a house and settled near the gates of the city. He began to know of the ways of these cities and it grieved him. He may have witnessed to the people of these cities, but they didn't heed his preaching and devised more ways to be wicked. Yet, Lot decided to stay instead of shaking the dust off of his sandals and moving to another city in the plains. he did not remove his family from the wicked influences of these places. He failed a as a patriarch in this way and I'm sure was torn between living for God and keeping his family unaffected by the wicked ways of these people and trying to make a living among them. I don't think that Lot ever participated in the sin of homosexuality. It doesn't say where and when he found his wife and married her. Was she from these cities? She wasn't from the kin of Abraham because Abraham did not have an heir until Ishmael was born and he was still a youth. Maybe he went back to Haran to take a wife from their kin like Isaac and Jacob did. We don't know. And his daughter's husbands? Where from? Sodom.

courage faith George

Phil, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

CHRIST'S rule upon earth is not done from the natural Jerusalem existing in Israel east of the Mediterranean Sea; it is done through NEW JERUSALEM described in Revelation 21.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw NO TEMPLE therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the LAMB are THE TEMPLE OF IT.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was offered ONCE to BEAR THE SINS of many; and unto them that (the SPIRIT causes) to look for him shall he APPEAR THE SECOND TIME (second coming) WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION.

NEW JERUSALEM is ruling NOW. You can live in NEW JERUSALEM NOW.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH (born of the SPIRIT): for the First heaven and the first earth were passed away (died on the cross with CHRIST);and there was no more sea (that the beast came out of). Revelation 13:1

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw (in vision) the holy city, New Jerusalem, COMING DOWN FROM GOD (SPIRIT) out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

John 3:13 No man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is IN HEAVEN (CHRIST IN YOU Colossians 1:27)

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLETH IN YOU.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice (Holy Spirit) out of heaven saying, Behold, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and HE SHALL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and GOD HIMSELF (SPIRIT) shall be with them (and in them), an be their God.

WE SUFFER in THIS FLESH; until this flesh dies, and we are given the BODY OF CHRIST.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have PUT ON incorruption, and this mortal MUST PUT ON immortality.

1 Timothy 6:16 ....Who ONLY hath immortality.....

Luke 1:69 ..raised up a HORN of salvation...

Revelation 17:16-17 and the ten HORNS (saved) ... shall hate the whore, and shall make her DESOLATE and NAKED, and shall eat her flesh, and BURN HER WITH FIRE.

Ok thanks!!!! I asked this question because people say this a lot and I wanted to hear other people explanation

Hi Timothy,

How do we know He isn't real if we have no proof He isn't?

The fact is you exist. So do I. Your heart beats for no apparent reason. Nothing scientific makes that muscle to continue to expand and contract creating electricity and pumping in a perfect rhythm matching the energy needs, and doing so for 75+ years. The smartest minds on earth don't know how to make it. No one knows how to create life. And the heart is part of a brilliantly designed interconnected system that allows capabilities and features beyond the imagination.

If you see a painting you know there's a painter, if you see a building there's a builder, but if you see something even far more amazing and complex in its design it wasn't made by designer? It it likely a random explosion from nothing designed it, not just once but also in ideal pairs (male/female), also with food (trees/plants). This doesn't follow the scientific method of ever being witnessed or being reproducible and it violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, because order always goes to disorder, not the opposite.

So, I think deep down when you look at the amazing creation including ourselves we know we're designed and it would take way more faith to believe everything was accidentally designed from nothing and for no reason instead of intentionally designed by a designer.

Imagine a Tesla model S with all its features creating itself. No one would believe that- that's silly. But strangely, people love to believe a human body with even more advanced features is possible, not only that, but in pairs, and also with food, even though such as thing has never been witnessed. 3d vision, video, DNA code in every cell, touch, feel, smell, taste, anti-drowning, water resistant skin, water cooled, heat generation, reproducible, efficient and compact plumbing and electrical system, heals itself. Only adapting to climate is a feature of amazing design, not evolving. No animal has ever evolved into another kind of animal.

Romans 1:19-20. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

FOR THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD ARE CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead; ""so that they are without excuse:""

We're without excuse. Even without having seen him, even if there were no bible, God's creation declares something skillful and divine has happened.

continue later. Thanks

Timothy.

The proof is in his creation,

His Glory is in his handywork.

That's what Romans ch 1 is all about.

I'm at work, Maybe someone can elaborate on it further, If not I will later.

Thanks, and good day.

Pretty useful!!!! Honestly every time I do something that involves the Bible! I go here and it always has the answer. I recommend this for everyone!!!!! (My favorite part is the trivia)

I love reading thanks!!!!!

Lele,

Jesus answered this question and every other question about sex outside of marriage here:

"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Mat 19:4-6

The sexual relationship that God created is that...

ONE man and ONE woman are to be ONE flesh for ONE lifetime.

Any other kind of sexual relationship is not according to God's design and is in rebellion to God.

I assume your question is if it is a sin to have sexual relations outside of marriage and if so, the answer to that is yes. It's called adultery or fornication. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20

can you have sex before marriage?