Genesis Chapter 19 Discussion Page 3

"thither" means 'over there'. Likewise, 'hither' means 'over here' (when you come across this word in the Bible).

What is thither?

The angels had given a clear warning to Lot & his family that they should not look back at the destruction of Sodom, rather to head towards the mountain ( Genesis 19:17). Lot's wife disobeyed God by looking back, & the fuller meaning of this is, not just a turning around to see the burning of the city, but that her heart was still there in Sodom & she saw her friends & dreams being evaporated. She had to pay for her sin of disobedience, just as Lot's daughters had to bear the consequences of their decision to keep the family line going: their sons, Moab & Benammi (Ammon) departed into rejection of the True God & into idolatry & were often at war with Israel. However, Ruth (from the Book of Ruth), a Moabitess, provides a glimmer of hope to us, being King David's great-grandmother.

Though the daughters of Lot were at fault, the children they bore for their father became well known in the Bible.Why didn't God save the wife of Lot so that this won't happen?

Mishael, in addition look at Numbers on the Moabites situation. Apologies my spell check changed your name in the previous post to Michael, didn't realise until after I pressed send.

Michael, good day. The two sons of Noah ie. Seth and Japeth didn't look at their father by not looking , Seth and Japeth showed their father respect and did not sin. They looked away and showed their father respect Japeth and Seth are not an equivalence in behaviour to lots daughters, Lots daughters are infact the opposite. Lots daughters took advantage of their father and had intercourse with him without his consent and bore offspring, their offspring were a product of a sin was my point. Mockery and incestuous relationships are specifically forbidden in Leviticus 18:6-29, or there abouts. It is thought Genesis may have been written after Leviticus, due to references specifically to periods that came after the exodus, which is after Genesis in order. Aside f on that just because it's not written down doesn't mean it's acceptable, the term called Oral laws, very common to most of the World at that time. The dating of books is an ongoing debate. Further Lots daughter s did not commit sodomy it is incest. Sodomy in biblical times referred to anal sex, which could not have made them pregnant, even if that may have been a part of it. Lots daughters offspring do not fair well. We see this in Exodus Amorites verses Moabites. Moab was the son of one of Lots daughters. Hope that helps.

You need to read that again. God didn't punish Noah or the 2 sons that didn't look upon him.

The punishment was for looking, laughing and blabbing to the town.

Sodomy was not written, so it only exists in your mind. Bring proof of that and your source.

They sinned. They made their father drunk and lay with him without consent. The offspring do not fair well as a result. That is the lesson it was a sin.

more info on lots daughters for laying with the father

Maybe. Because only two angels entered the city. I guess Jesus was busy tossing those fireballs down.

It don't have to say it in the bible to be true. Hate the sin but love the sinner sounds true to me.

As you would have read from the previous chapter ( Gen 18) that the Lord God appeared to Abraham by the visit of three men. Their purpose was to announce that Sarah would bear a child in her old age (v 10) & the sins of Sodom & Gomorrah had come before the Lord (vv 20-22).

Then in Genesis 19, we read of two angels who visit Sodom & their visit is directly connected to the events of Gen 18. Lot invites these men of God to his house & later the wicked men of Sodom come banging on Lot's door. Lot pleads with them that these are his visitors & not to harm them. But they replied to Lot, "You came to live amongst us & you now want to tell us what to do?" So, they were speaking to Lot's coming to live with them & no one else. But as far as the angels visiting Lot, they were God's messengers to deliver this indictment against the cities & to rescue Lot, his wife & two daughters. Some believe that Jesus was one of the angels but there's nothing to indicate that this was a Christophany but simply God's messengers to warn Lot.

Genesis 19: verse 9. Was the sojourn that entered Lots house Jesus?

The bible says that we are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its savour then its good for nothing. It also states that we are to press toward the mark of a higher calling and leave the former things behind. We cant move forward if we keep looking back then we are bound to destruction we are bound to bump our head. I believe the Lord allowed Lot's wife to turn into a pillar of salt leaving her in past which is where she wanted to remain. Lots wife was disobedient and therefore good for nothing.

Genesis 19 proves there is no salvation for sodomites. The LORD didn't send prophets into Sodom to evangelize, he sent angels to destroy. Romans 1 explains how one becomes a sodomite and that they're filled with all unrighteousness. This is clearly evident as the whole town of sodomites came to rape the two angels while Lot is offering his daughters! Lot's daughters taking advantage of him also proves that their wickedness is infectious; also his wife. She looked back because of concern and was destroyed.

Thank you be safe

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We could give many more examples to add to the sin of murder, but to the sin of homosexuality, I consider this to be yet another sin that needs to be dealt with. Medically, we've been told that this is how some people are 'wired', thereby giving justification for this aberrant behaviour. Yet, if we dig deeper, would not this convoluted mess in our brains also be the result of the sinful nature? God did not give some folk such an inclination to sin, but it surfaces from the root of sin in us. Now, how we deal with it, as all sin, is what God requires of us. As the apostle agonized over his sin(s), something he acknowledged was very real, he confessed that he seemed powerless in the natural man to deal with it as sin followed him everywhere & had its foothold in him - he hated it - he didn't want it at all - but he was subject to its relentless demands upon him that perpetually agonized him. ( Romans 7).

Does the homosexual then have a choice? Or, is the behaviour so much a part of his being, that 'choice' is not an option? Even though the need for love & companionship would rank amongst the most strong & compelling of desires in humans (only next to Survival), I still believe that if a sin is in question, then we also have the power to choose; if not, then there is no hope for forgiveness. They may not be able to rid themselves of this corruption in their being (as Paul well described his predicament), but they can recognize it as sin, come to the foot of the Cross with it & find forgiveness & power to deal with it daily. What makes this so difficult & sensitive an issue, is that that person has to then abstain completely from same gender involvements, as well as deal with the feelings & urges that continually press on the mind. But then, we all have something very real & compelling to deal with in our lives; it becomes then a question: do we obey God & find forgiveness & acceptance, or do we rather satisfy our lusts & reap the fruit therefrom?

Page 1.

DJ, thank you for your comments. Mine were really based on my understanding of this type of behaviour from observations, an ex-work mate & from a childhood friend (now passed on). We both agree that we have an inherent sinful nature from birth, but we seem to part at this point: "God does not equip people to be born with sinful tendencies".

I would agree that it is not God's wilful Act to specially cause us to have 'sinful tendencies' but I see that it is part & parcel of the sin nature we are so born with. In other words, as much as I would hate to admit to having such a fallen nature that could perform ALL types of sin, the Word tells me that this is so, finding, for example, even the root of murder (which is anger), in me. Why then do I not commit murder? Even as an earlier non-Christian, I would be subject to my own conscience, my propensities & urges, govt. law & societal expectations, that place restraint on me. Then why does one commit murder, with its root in anger? Those aspects that once would have restrained, now have little or no regard given to them, rather to satisfy one's lust to commit sin. (onto Page 2.)

Dear Bob,

Sounds like what I wrote had no affect so I don't believe discussing further will be fruitful. You asked where the phrase 'hate the sin, love the sinner' is in the Bible- I didn't say that was in the Bible, but it summarizes what the Bible says. Loving others is everywhere throughout the Bible, including the 2nd greatest commandment. The phrase "So we should love satanists who follow satan?" isn't in the Bible either. But the answer is yes, Jesus says to love your neighbor (everyone) as they are made in God's image, not the sin or their evil choices.

I will end the discussion with this verse. It's out of Jesus's mouth and I'm not one to argue with Jesus. God bless...

Matthew 5:43-48

Adam, where does the Bible say hate the sin, love the sinner? I can not find it anywhere.

Bible book of Malachi Chapter 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

And I hated Esau, God said he hated Esau.

Yes I know some will say that this really means he loved less.

so when the Lord hates sin that means he loves sin less?

Oh Paul confirms the above in Romans.

So we should love satanists who follow satan?

Hi Bob,

I believe the phrase: hate the sin, love the sinner applies to this. I don't believe it applies to satan himself, but to people.

We're all sinners, but yes, I consider a sin like mass murder greater than a sin of lying, so it's only natural to look at the person more severely, but I think we should instead deeply hate the sinful act, and deeply hate those choices/decisions, but not the underlying person. For example, Hitler's sin should be deeply hated, but God made him in his image just like you. So the part that God created is the part we should love, even though that part might be hard to see as it can be clouded and hidden by the evil the person is trying to do. Even the worst offenders have multiple chances to make themselves right with God and if they do we should accept them. What if you hated a mass murderer who became a Christian, would you still hate him as a person? If so, then you'd hate one of the greatest authors of the Bible and evangelists for Christ: Paul. God loves giving people many chances, that's the beauty of grace, and we need to give that same grace to others, otherwise, we will be judged for it: MATTHEW 7:1 - God bless!

Chris,

I agree with much of the information you gave to Cheryl concerning homosexuality.

However, our opinions differ concerning someone being born a homosexual.

God does not equip people to be born with sinful tendencies.

Our heavenly Father does everything He can to give each and every one of us the best chance to succeed in this lifetime.

Original sin is upon every person.

Everything else is a choice.

Christians are to love all people? So are we to love satanists?

David a man after God's own heart said the following

Psalms 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

2 Chronicles 19:2 And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

Read that again why don't you.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Deut 23: 17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a SODOMITE of the sons of Israel.

18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a DOG, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these [are] abomination unto the LORD

Romans Chapter 1:

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Cheryl, the Bible shows us that each one of us are sinners before God. The only one that came in perfect human flesh was Jesus, God's Word, & he was born into this world without a sin nature & lived a sinless life. This made Him the only acceptable Sacrifice for our sins. There is no sin too great that His Blood cannot cover & which God cannot forgive - all sins that we commit are forgivable when we truly repent.

The sin of homosexuality is complex because some may have been born with such a tendency, others, because of an abnormal upbringing who were groomed towards it, & yet others may feel the love they receive from their own gender is better than the other. So, whatever the reason for one's homosexuality, it is essentially the sin nature that surfaces in such a form. The world makes excuses for it, because they do not give regard to God's Laws but rather appeal to the happiness of the person & for equal treatment for all. But God requires that all sin, including homosexuality, be repented of (i.e. to declare remorse for it & to turn away from its practise). It is hard for them to do this because it may seem natural to them & fulfilling, but they need to "abstain from all appearance of evil".

Yet, Christians are still required to love all people, regardless of their sin. And this love is not that we should agree to what people do, but to love them as God loves them & longs for them to turn away from their sin. If allowed, we should not neglect a repentant homosexual who wants to know the way of Salvation - we must treat that person as any sinner seeking God & who knows that his/her behaviour is against God's Laws & against the natural display of love & commitment. So the only way to differentiate the act of sin from the person committing it, is to view both through the Eyes of God & through His Son's sacrifice for them.

Cheryl, the Bible shows us that each one of us are sinners before God. The only one that came in perfect human flesh was Jesus, God's Word, & he was born into this world without a sin nature & lived a sinless life. This made Him the only acceptable Sacrifice for our sins. There is no sin too great that His Blood cannot cover & which God cannot forgive - all sins that we commit are forgivable when we truly repent.

The sin of homosexuality is complex because some may have been born with such a tendency, others, because of an abnormal upbringing who were groomed towards it, & yet others may feel the love they receive from their own gender is better than the other. So, whatever the reason for one's homosexuality, it is essentially the sin nature that surfaces in such a form. The world makes excuses for it, because they do not give regard to God's Laws but rather appeal to the happiness of the person & for equal treatment for all. But God requires that all sin, including homosexuality, be repented of (i.e. to declare remorse for it & to turn away from its practise). It is hard for them to do this because it may seem natural to them & fulfilling, but they need to "abstain from all appearance of evil".

Yet, Christians are still required to love all people, regardless of their sin. And this love is not that we should agree to what people do, but to love them as God loves them & longs for them to turn away from their sin. If allowed, we should not neglect a repentant homosexual who wants to know the way of Salvation - we must treat that person as any sinner seeking God & who knows that his/her behaviour is against God's Laws & against the natural display of love & commitment. So the only way to differentiate the act of sin from the person committing it, is to view both through the Eyes of God & through His Son's sacrifice for them.

Sodom & Gomorrah I was taught about man doing not what God purpose for him was but doing his own will , homosexuality so it was destroyed but it was rendered evil in god's eyes , so why in today society are we trying to make it he norm where someone is shoun for not wanting to be friends with some one who is partaking in homosexuality why are they trying changing the Bible to fit man explaining when the bible tells you it's wrong yeah they hate homosexuality but not the homo explain how to separate the act

They were sodomites and they did not want Lots two Girls so they pressed into to over take the Men or Angels and they Blinded them! they want to sodomise them.....Obvious

Thank You Very Much!

Bingo you nailed it. God justifies us with our faith.
Zechariah Chapter 3: 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy (SIN) garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Could you help explain Romans 8:33-34, when it says, Vs 33, "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect. It is God that justifieth".
Vs 34, "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died,.. "

Does it mean that only God can lay any charge against His elect?
Also, does Vs 34 mean that only Christ can condemn His eject?

Thank You!